Hollenbeck drilling:12guage over .25-25 Stevens:handed down through my family.Very tight and in excellent condition. According to 1908 Prospectus: "rifle-barrels are made from special high-grade nickel steel,...having a tensile strength of over 110,000 lbs. to the square inch, and an elastic limit of over 100,000 lbs. The lug is 7/8-in. wide constructed of tool steel, which reinforsec the barrel at the point where the explosion occurs...Our Three-Barrel Guns are made to handle all regular standard loads of smokeless or black powder...the rifle barrels will shoot the full jacketed,soft nose, or tempered lead bullets...calibres:32-40,30-30,25-35,25-25 and 25-20...12,16 and shot barrels,28 in. long."
Can I hand load the .25-25 Stevens with IMR 4350 and Nosler 85 gr ballistic tip,put a .308 insert in one of the 12 guage barrels and mount a Zeiss 30mmtube,1.5X6X42 with a pivot or claw mount after a highly regared antique gunsmith clears my plan? That "rust-belt" gunsmith suggested this forum to help with loading the .25-25 Stevens!
The 25-25 is a very small cartridge and is more suited to a faster powder, 4350 is even too slow for the 25-35, a much larger cartridge. The 25-25 might even be too slow for the 85gr NBT to open. There is a 85/86gr flatnose jacketed bullet that would be much more suited to the small cartridge. There are also bulk lubed cast lead from Meister bullets in 85grains that are very easy on the old rifles barrel, I use them for small game in my various 25's. The old 25-25 was never more than a small game cartridge
If the old Hollenbeck is in good original condition you would be much better off finding a used German drilling and using it. You can find one for less than you would spend on a regulateable insert(to adjust POI to match the 25-25 barrel) scope and bases.
I paid $1100 for a nice drilling in 6.5x58R Sauer 16ga with claw mounts and a Hensodlt scope. It will shoot sub MOA groups to 200 meters, power is equivalent to a 25-35 Win.
I'm guessing the pressures of a .308 would reduce a Hollenbeck to rubble.
About fifty years ago, I saw the remains of one at Central Loan in Seattle, that some goof ball had rechambered from .30 WCF to .30-40 Krag.
Researcher,
I agree with Oscar, but on the other hand, the chamber insert or insert barrel should hold the pressure. I don't have a 25-25, but in cartridges of that class, I like Unique or 4198/4227.
Mike
thanks Oskar, how about 3031 like I use in my 30 30 Ackley: it's fast powder I think?
I have a 16 guage over 7x57R drilling with 22mag insert and Hensoldt scope with claw mounts, bought it in Germany in 1982 while in the Army, I love it and hunt with it alot: I want this Hollenbeck to be comparable. You're right about the extra cost but this Hollenbeck was hidden and just surfaced and I want to give it new life. Probably originally owned by my great grandfather: must have been a hek of a turkey gun in it's day.
Sounds like insert with .308 a viable option as Der Ami points out.
Researcher scared me and I appreciate the cautious approach.
Wish I could find more loading data for 25-25, got a few suggestions from loaddata.com
thanks: great forum
If you insist on using a 308 in this gun, would you please list me as a beneficiary on you insurance papers??
AND since you have other suitable guns, use them
AND then find a game and condition in which the Hollenbeck would
be useful. You do not disclose a location. If in the South I surely would use it turkey hunting
Mike
I think the problem with the .308 would not be on the insert or chamber themselves. It's more what the back pressure from the high intensity round would do to the action. Head area of the .308 is approximately 1/3 that of the 12ga, but the pressure of the .308 is on the order of 5 times that of the 12. You would have a lot more back thrust against the standing breech.
Great info Skeettx, I will get some loaded shells, no problem using gun for what it was intended but would like safe insert cabable of humanely dispatching white tailed deer: the 25-25 will be fine for coyote and the like. Rearding the scope, I already have the 1.5x6 Zeiss and my vision is too poor for open sights.
I believe the 12 guage is 3 inch: wonder what buck shot or turkey shot I could safely shoot?
Any tips on die for the 25-25? Found one at Huntington Die Soec.
Is Unique hard to clean like black powder? Does such areduced charge give accuracy problems? Wonder what's in the black powder loaded shells from Buffalo Arms Co?
Thanks, this such great info
I won't disclose my location (R0ll Tide) but Coyote and feral hogs are a big prolem here, not to mention too many deer: What insert would you be comfortable with with since the 1908 Hollenbeck prospectus says "high grade nickel steel,the lug is 7/8 in wide constructed of tool steel" The Hollenbeck was originally chambered in 30 30 Win.
Very good point 2-piper, let's forget the .308 idea
I believe the 12 guage is 3 inch: wonder what buck shot or turkey shot I could safely shoot?
ginge I cringe if that gun has 3" chambers DO NOT put modern 3" magnum loads in it.
I would even go as far myself, to not put any modern factory loaded high speed & pressure 12g 2 3/4 loads through it.
Do we know the chokes on the 12g barrels ?
O.M
Everything about this makes me cringe. I have spent a lot of time loading for my 25-35 hollenbeck and less time with my 30-30 and 32-40. ALL SIGNS POINT TO DO NOT OVERLOAD. What I would have considered 70% loads in the 25-35
Caused case deformity, rough extraction, deformed rims, and damaged case necks. Also the chamber on that gun requires a very short OAL such that modern (1960s) factory loads will not close in the gun (117 gr bullets).
On the shotgun side I wouldn't put ANY heavy, magnum, or otherwise big load in it and I am referring to 2 3/4in 1 5/8 oz type loads. 3in is totally out of the question in any form.
I do not consider myself extreme or overly cautious. But I error to the side of caution
For the 12 gauge I would use
http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/20-12-Ga-2-3/4-Lite-Vel-1150-1-oz-Load-Case.aspx#5s for squirrels
And 25-25 Stevens with unique (very clean burning) in the rifle barrel.
Mike
p.s. remember the 12 gauge of that day were NOT magnums or even extreme performance, use the gun as intended and enjoy yesteryear, what fun, what fun
Listen to skeetx. The 3" shotshell wasnt introduced until 1923 and in only some heavily costucted heavy waterfowl guns. Odds are your shotgun has 2 5/8" chambers. The RST loads are about perfect for that age of shotgun.
Again this is an old cartridge for small game, very good for turkey with the original cast bullet loads. While 3031 is considered a fast powder for modern deer cartridges it is again too slow the old 25-25.
Reloading dies can be found used on ebay but it might be a long wait, for new i would look to C&H4d, great company to deal with for the old ones. Buffalo arms usually has C&H dies for most older cartridges. COTW might have some data for reloading.
Remember you are dealing with a firearm that is over 100 years old, treat it kindly .
I copied this from the American Single Shot Rifle Association site:
"Few years back, I picked up a couple of original rifles, a .40-70 Remington rolling block..with English proofs, and a No.2 Ballard in .25-25 Stevens. I had heard good things about a then new to me black powder called Swiss. And since I had sense enough by that time to only use black in these antiques, I tried it. 1st. time out with the Remington, and 1 1/2 Swiss I shot a 1" group at 100yds...it ain't supposed to be that easy..and I was hooked. The little .25-25 likes 3FG Swiss...3/8" groups at 50yds. with 100gr. Ideal 25720. I must confess..I did try a light smokeless load in this rifle..and the accuracy wasn't there..and neither was the deep boom all out of proportion to it's size..and that greyish white smoke screen blotting out the target for an instant..it just wasn't as fun!"
That accuracy should collect a turkey!
The 3" shotshell wasn't introduced until 1923 and in only some heavily constructed heavy waterfowl guns.
This was the introduction of what we know today as the "Magnum" loading. 3" shells existed from back in the 1800's but they were not loaded particularly heavier. They had allowed for a better wad column with bulky powders such as either Black or Bulk Smokeless, both of which were the most commonly reloaded powders. About the maximum load for the day was 3¼ to 3½ drams or equivalent powder with 1¼oz shot.
Actually, the SAAMI specifications call for the same pressure for the 3" and 2 3/4" twelve gauge, so the gun isn't likely to fly apart with the use of the longer shell, but I suspect that the barrels may be Damascus and not even suitable for modern 2 3/4" ammo. As far as an insert in one of the shotgun barrels. The problem will be the firing pins being too large in diameter for the pressures involved. The primers will flow back into the firing pin holes and lock the gun up, and could even perforate, dumping high pressure into the action and head of the stock.
If this were my gun, I would limit its use to small game and varmints within its capabilities.
ginge,
Since you have the 16ga X 7x57R drilling with Einstecklauf, that is the one you should hunt deer with. If you insist on a chamber insert for the Hollenbeck, I recommend .357 mag. and usually use 38 special. You can buy( if you have enough time and money)an insert barrel( Einstecklauf)for full caliber cartridges, such as 308 ( incl. 7x57r). The makers of these, however, won't generally install one over 6.5mm in a drilling (there are exceptions for "strong" drillings-their choice). Plus there would be an extra charge for installing a bushed firing pin. Larger caliber Einstecklaufs are usually reserved for O/U guns, which are considered stronger.
Where were you stationed in Germany? I left there, the last time, in early 82. Did you hunt in Germany? I taught the hunting course at the R&G Club at Kitzingen/am Main, through 1981.
War Eagle.
Mike
Listen to skeetx. The 3" shotshell wasnt introduced until 1923 and in only some heavily costucted heavy waterfowl guns. Odds are your shotgun has 2 5/8" chambers. The RST loads are about perfect for that age of shotgun.
Again this is an old cartridge for small game, very good for turkey with the original cast bullet loads. While 3031 is considered a fast powder for modern deer cartridges it is again too slow the old 25-25.
Reloading dies can be found used on ebay but it might be a long wait, for new i would look to C&H4d, great company to deal with for the old ones. Buffalo arms usually has C&H dies for most older cartridges. COTW might have some data for reloading.
Remember you are dealing with a firearm that is over 100 years old, treat it kindly .
Ginge, you stated that the Hollenbeck was originally chambered for 30-30 WCF. Was it then changed to 25-25 Stevens? Sorry, maybe I missed something. Are the shotgun barrels Krupp Steel or Damascus? Thnx
Once Again; 3" shells were in use long before 1923. They were "NOT" the heavy loaded SuperX Magnums which were introduced in the 1920's, don't recall for certain if 1923 is the exact date or not. The fact that it has 3" chambers now is not an absolute guarantee it has been re-chambered. Nash Buckingham wrote of using his Father's gun when he was growing up, which as I recall was from the 1880's & chambered for 3¼" shells. It was a Greener Hammer gun but they acquired American loaded shells for it, loaded with the "Heavy Load" of 1oz shot. Several American makers adopted the 2 3/4" shell as standard quite early on while others stayed with the 2 5/8". In 12ga lengths from 2½" through 3¼" were available on order in 1/8" increments As I stated in my earlier post the primary difference was in the amount of wadding used, not necessarily heavier loads.
I am in total agreement I would treat this ol gal kindly & not put heavy loads through her, either most modern 2 3/4" or 3" ones.
Sorry about the reposts, they weren't intentional, not even a mistake on my part as I haven't looked at the post since I posted it. I've been on the road driving the whole time.
Ginge, you stated that the Hollenbeck was originally chambered for 30-30 WCF. Was it then changed to 25-25 Stevens? Sorry, maybe I missed something. Are the shotgun barrels Krupp Steel or Damascus? Thnx
I read that original post to mean that this gun is 25-25.
The manufacturer also offered them chambered in either of the following calibres. 32-40, 30-30, 25-35, 25-25, 25-20 & either 12g or 16 g shot barrels at 28" length.
O.M
.Oskar;
No problem; I wondered why you came back with an identical posting after my post. I have seen some posts come up like that before with no apparent reason, just a glitch in the system I guess. You are correct as to when the 3" Magnum using a heavier payload at higher velocity was introduced. Both longer chambers & shells/hulls had been available to order for quite some time prior to that though.
chambered in either of the following calibres. 32-40, 30-30, 25-35, 25-25, 25-20
FWIW, they were also chambered in .22 WCF, .25-21 Stevens, .25-20 SS, .25-36 Marlin, .32 Ideal and .32-20.
Do check and make sure that old guy REALLY IS 3". Anything is possible in old guns since in those days the customer always was right, but I suspect that it was designed for 2 5/8" or 2 1/2" shells originally and any longer chamber was done aftermarket.
No reason to strain a gun that is pretty uncommon to begin with and in a rarish rifle chambering. Be neat if you could pass it along to the next generation, used, loved, and still sound! American made drillings in interesting chamberings and with family history are not found in every pawn shop....more like winning the lotto!
Quote:
The 3" shotshell wasn't introduced until 1923 and in only some heavily constructed heavy waterfowl guns.
This was the introduction of what we know today as the "Magnum" loading. 3" shells existed from back in the 1800's but they were not loaded particularly heavier. They had allowed for a better wad column with bulky powders such as either Black or Bulk Smokeless, both of which were the most commonly reloaded powders. About the maximum load for the day was 3¼ to 3½ drams or equivalent powder with 1¼oz shot.
Western Cartridge Co. introduced their Super-X progressive burning powder loads in 12- and 20-gauge put up in their 2 3/4 inch FIELD shell in 1922. The Super-X 16-gauge load followed pretty closely on their heels but put up in the 2 9/16 inch FIELD shell. By the next year they got their 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load of 1 3/8 ounce of shot on the market, put up in their high-brass RECORD shell.
Super-X loads 1923 --
Super-X loads 1929 --
It wasn't called a MAGNUM. While a number of our gun writers were throwing around the term, the first time I have found any of our North American ammunition companies calling a shotshell MAGNUM was when the 3 1/2 inch MAGNUM-Ten was introduced in 1932. The 12-gauge, 3-inch, progressive burning powder loads got the term MAGNUM in 1935, when along with the introduction of the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck, Western's Super-X and Winchester's Super-Speed were offered with a payload increased to 1 5/8 ounce of shot, but the 1 3/8 ounce loads were not called MAGNUM.
Would be great to see a few pics of this gun! Post some please. Always enjoy looking at Hollenbecks!
OK, new to forum and got confused: didn't know to go to page 2;3, etc:old timers disease at age 64, I guess. Figured ya'll were just a quiet bunch or I had said something wrong.
Yes, I plan to treat this old girl with respect and you're going to help me do that. I just want to do my part as her steward and leave it better than I found it.
I have ordered loaded .25-25 shell coming from Buffalo Arms along with die,shell holder and more empty cases. Gun is on it's way to Brad Bachelder Master Gun Makers in Grand Rapids, Michagan:Go Wolverines!Firing pins were removed for safety but my Uncle says gunsmith hid them in gun somewhere;not in butt plate: may have to fabricate them if nothing else. I sent my Zeiss 1.5x6x42 along with drilling, which I think I got at he US Army Rod and Gun Club outside Heilelberg, Germany in 1982:lot's of hunting and great memories there!Brad Bachelder says they can do pivot or claw mount he thinks: with my vision I need optics. Still fantasize about insert in 30 30 Akley with fabricated full length and outward adjustable insert: Here ( can't disclose location:Roll Tide,War Eagle!) we need weapon for cloven hoofed game and varmits: i'm not mad at the birds.
How do I send pictures? Glad you want to see her!
ginge,
To go to page 2 or 3, just click on the number you want to go to at the bottom right hand side of the page.
Mike
Mark21, So you have loading experience with Hollenbeck in 25-35;30-30 and 32-40 or just 25-35? Plesse share loading info/ velocities, if you have them.Thanks