Let caution be your guide in the import market. I congratulate all of the fellows who have recently bought an English double which proved to be sound. But over on the Spanish gun forum, we have known for some time that a number of guns are being exported from England to avoid being re-proofed. Check those barrel walls!

True, but if they get caught the penalites are extreme. Exporting a gun out of proof is just like selling one out of proof. I do not shoot any gun until I have measured the barrels. Too many a-holes honing, reaming and buggering up good barrels to hide pits and wear. I am quite fond aof all of my fingers so trust but measure first is a sound motto.

Exactly. It is rare to find one for sale out of proof for that reason. Since exportation has to go through RFDs even those released from the unknowing (or knowingly criminal) seem to be caught. I had one a few years ago that I knew should have been cut from a provincial auction house that it turned out wasn't. It was caught by the exporter and so I had it cut (at my cost).

Interestingly there is no specification per se on wall thickness in the proof laws, the proof of the pudding, as it were, being in the testing. Tradition has it at about 20 thou. However, guns are legal to sell below that point if they are still within proof. You will see warnings to that effect at the more informed and informative auction houses like Holts


Jeremy

Volleyfire, Perhaps you would like to be more explicit and give us some facts rather than malicious gossip.
We could then bring the perpetrators to book.

I heard of one at 16 Thou passing proof.

Not long ago some "experts" on Spanish shotguns vilified a poster who dared suggest that proof was mandatory in CIP nations and who produced official evidence to back up the claim. The vehemence of the flaming (one sided) was surprising.

Proof status is still mandatory, in CIP member states, it cannot be legally evaded by the exporting side. The question is if it creates any legal claim for the final buyer in the USA and other non CIP country in case he is sold an out of proof shotgun that "somehow" slips through the regulatory net.

There may have been a time when that occured, but, it wouldn't happen today. Procedures have changed at the proof house, and each barrel is tested twice, once with a load that develops peak pressure in the chamber, and with a second load that develops peak pressure 9" from the breech. Subjecting guns that weren't produced to handle this level of proof seems like pure folly to me, but, that is the way it is. Many old guns will fail reproof, as it exists today.

Best,
Ted

OK, I give up.

Show me the "proof" that "we have know for some time that number of guns are being imported from England to avoid being re-proofed"

Talk is cheap. Evidence is of value.



Bv

I'd hope it never becomes a question. If I'm not mistaken, the buyer also has a responsibility to follow CIP law. Wouldn't that be a hoot if the CIP could enforce their laws in a non CIP country, like the US.

Well Fellows,

You are welcome. I was under the impression that all of these websites were based on gossip... a bit of insider information passed along by the knowing to friends. If you choose to believe that an $80000 shotgun suddenly turned up on your doorstep for $5000, because it was out of fashion... buy with my blessing.

Maybe someone is dumb enough to export guns out of proof but it has to be only a matter of time before he gets caught. Too many barrel wall thickness gauges out there and people know how to use them. So if you just bought a gun that is out of proof and it was discovered by your gunsmith while he was checking the gun out what would you do contact the seller or contact the exporter unless they are one in the same?

Who would risk it for a few pounds shipping and handling or even a few hundred pounds profit on the sale. If caught you stand to loose so much more than that.

I don't understand the part about getting caught and what's there to loose other than the cost of the purchase and or the repair? One could contact the seller and exporter/importer to claim some compensation that was thought to be due, but is it possible to violate a proof law in the US?

Did he not "Violate The Law" in the country from which it was shipped. Even a century & more ago when most American gun makers were importing Damascus & Twist barrels, primarily from Belgium, they came in with provisional proof marks. They were finished here & did not carry the Definitive proof marks & in many cases the provisional ones were lost in the finishing process, however they still remain on many others.

To help in my understanding of "in proof based upon proof law", which countries have minimum wall bbl thickness stated in their proof laws & what is the minimum thickness?

I know .020" is suggested by some as minimum wall thickness but I was not aware that being below .020" bbl wall thickness made a gun out of proof assuming it was otherwise in proof.

I'm not arguing that the .020" minimum doesn't make sense & that a gun w/less that .020" may not pass reproof but please clarify on the Proof Laws.

No CIP signatory has a MWT requirement for proof

Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) http://www.cip-bobp.org/
Standard CIP proof pressure of 850 kg per sq. cm. (BAR) = 13,920 psi proof pressure = 10,730 psi service pressure (SAAMI)
Shotgun recommended minimum wall thickness (p.4) for Standard Steel with tensile strength 700 - 849 N/sq. mm = 101,526-123,137 psi, which Chrome Moly 4140 just reaches
http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/default/files/new_file/A-4-1_EN.pdf

12g...........................................................................20g
End of chamber - .079”..................................................075”
Just past the forcing cone/ 4” from breech - .075”................071”
8” - .043”..................................................................041”
12” - .030”.................................................................028”
16” - .024”.................................................................022”
20” - .022”.................................................................020”

British Rules of Proof: If a plug gauge of 0.729" diameter will enter the bore to a depth of 9", that barrel is marked 12. If so marked and a plug gauge of 0.740" will enter the bore to a depth of 9", the barrels are "out-of-proof".

I owned one at 18 that passed proof.

Barrel wall thickness does not take a gun out of proof to be accurate and fair. I am more concerned about the wall thickness and safety in use, than being in proof which is why I measure the wall thickness in the first place. But when I measure a gun and find very thin walls I suspect it has been honed. If you then measure the bores and find it is now with a bore too large that it is in fact out of proof under US proof law, which does not exist on proof issues it is a non issue. But you can not sell or export a gun you know to be out of proof if you are a dealer in Great Britain as I understand it. In fact the auction houses refuse sell out of proof guns unless they have been cut to prevent their use.

None of the guns I've imported have been out of proof unless it was some technical issue I did not know about. But what if one was? Would you first contact the seller or the exporting dealer or just forget about it unless the gun is of substantial value?

proof smoof...when evaluating fluid steel barrels for safe shooting with smokeless field loads, just make sure you have 90 thousands or more of barrel wall in front of the chambers and a minimum of 30 thousands 7 to 9 inches down from the muzzles...anything less than that should be suspect and perhaps relegated to light black powder loads only...

Drew,

Thank you for confirming that I still understand what being "in proof" means.

I'm not sure that some of the other posters grasp the concept that you can have a gun with very thin bbl wall thickness that is technically & legally still in proof.

I'm all for checking bbl wall thickness but I can't see that thin barrel wall thickness would legally prevent anyone from exporting or selling a gun that is otherwise in proof. The fact that doing so is not a good business practice is another matter.

Note the gun is "Not" Out of Proof with thin barrels "IF" it was proofed with those thin barrels.
It "IS" out of proof "IF" the bores have been enlarged beyond the legal limit without it being re-proofed, thus producing the thin barrels After Proof.
Very often this is the case on guns having very thin barrels.
Such guns are not illegal to sell here in the US, Caveat Emptor.
They are illegal to sell "OR" Export in countries with proof laws.

External striking up and polishing, especially in pitted barrels, removes more metal than internal honing, in my experience.

Internal honing on modern machinery is precision controlled. External filing and polishing is not.

It is possible to have in proof shotguns with pristine bores, well within the proof max of 0.789 (18.9mm) yet thinned by external polishing.

The Belgian system that recorded the weight of the barrels, and made reproof obligatory if there was loss of more than 3 per cent weight had its merits.

I suppose it might be a part of initial manufacture, but if no one trusts proof stampings after that point, what's their value?

Craig, the value is that in their countries of origin, the gun is supposed to be submitted for reproof and those proof stampings changed if there's been significant modification to the gun in question: Chambers lengthened, barrels honed so that they're maybe .010 or more larger than originally stamped, etc. So the value is, with bore and choke and chamber gauges, you can very quickly determine how much the gun has been tampered with since it was originally proofed. Or reproofed.

Shotgunlover,

Thanks for that bit of information on Belgian proof. If that was combined w/British proof law one would have a very good proof law that addresses both internal & external modifications to the bbls from the original condition that they were in when proofed.

Well, depending on country where proof was done they help identify county of origin chamber length and weight plus power of loads the gun was originally designed for. Being we have "tire, string, big tree" as proof house in America we can go by original mechanical condition and measure of barrel wall thickness. I would say they will try to sell you anything in USA safe or not so be aware what you're looking at.

Sorry, I have been a while replying to this, but I had a word with a very important person and he pointed out that the various Proof Laws forbid unscrupulous people from circumnavigating safety issues . But it should be possible for you gentlemen to obtain SAAMI Proof loads to self test any guns that you have concerns about.
British Proof specifications factor in the safety factor for reasonable age and wear, if it is out of proof it just is not safe.

Nobody seems willing to state the obvious on this, so I will.

"But it should be possible for you gentlemen to obtain SAAMI Proof loads to self test any guns that you have concerns about."

That is poor advice.

SAAMI proof loads are only available to those who have any business applying them, namely manufacturers of new guns and other SAAMI affiliates.

There is more to the business of British Proof than simply firing the cartridges.

Anyone capable of doing the required pre-proof firing inspection is well capable of determining the safety status of a gun without setting off 20K psi bombs in it.

'Out of proof' is a technical term, and not necessarily indicative of an unsafe gun and certainly no reason for destroying one or putting 20 years of stress on it.

Thankfully, we don't have legal issues with proof here.

Hear, hear, Shotgunjones. Well said!

"in proof" only refers to the interior dimensions of the barrel. I know of no proof test that measures the wall thickness or outer dimension of a barrel other than the actual firing of the gun. If a gun has the original bore dimensions, it is assumed to be "in proof", regardless of how much the exterior of the barrels have been struck. Absolutely crazy.

If Shotgun lovers post on Proof in Belgium re. bbls. weighing <3% of the weight @ original proof being out of proof is correct, that proof law would make good sense & protect the buyer from most (but not all) internal & external bbl. modifications & or repairs.

If nothing else, a step in the right direction.

I've never paid a lot of attention to proof laws other than English so there may be much better proof laws out there to protect the consumer from unscrupulous sellers.

It does seem to me that requiring a minimum wall thickness would be desirable & alterations to forcing cones or chamber length should require reproof as the English proof law does.

I don't see how proof laws protect any buyer against buying an unsafe used gun. The laws do not prevent anyone from honing a bore past the proof limits, it just prevents it being legally resold that way. So, we are to believe that everybody became honest because of the laws? Baloney.

A buyer still must be educated enough to either be able to measure and determine if the bores have been honed too much, or hire a capable person to do so. Caveat emptor is not nullified just because laws exist.

Until everyone abides by laws, you're still on your own to protect yourself.

SRH

Brittany Guy: just to clarify, British proof law does not require reproof after lengthening forcing cones alone.
This may not apply to light weight small gauge doubles, but certainly with most U.S. 12s, the angle of the forcing cone is more abrupt than the exterior taper of the barrel, so the wall thickness in the cone (in my measuring experience anyway) is usually equal or even greater than the end of the chamber.
An illustration from the Hallowell site



This disaster was from "inexpert" lengthening of both the chamber and cones

Shotgunjones ,
Your cavalier attitude beggars belief .
I offered my well meaning advice for those of you who wished to safeguard your life and limbs to the best of your ability.
No where did I say that firing a proof load was all that was necessary .
What is necessary is to check the mechanical strength and integrity of any firearm used to the best of an individuals ability.
I shudder at how many exploded guns we see on US websites and forums , whilst hardly ever seeing any here in the UK.

Drew,

I was under the impression that under English proof law lengthened forcing cones was considered a "material alteration" as are the installation of choke tubes & requires reproof but a quick search this AM does not confirm that on the lengthened forcing cones so I stand corrected.

Stan,

For the record I'm not advocating the US adopt a Proof Law, all I'm saying is that in countries that do have a Proof Law it would make sense to address alterations & repairs to both the interior & exterior of the bbls which the existing English Proof Law does not effectively do by only considering bore enlargement over original
proof diameter & not taking lost wall thickness due to restriking & or refinishing into consideration.

Well salopian, we do a lot more shooting over here by a factor of many times and not every one of us is a genius.

We don't have a huge problem with burst guns as a result of over thin barrels.

The blown barrels you see are almost always a result of an obstruction, a hand loading error, or sometimes both - the load having caused the obstruction.

I am aware of two almost new guns from countries that have proof laws blowing with factory ammunition. Incredible as that seems, it's apparently impossible to make this activity completely safe.

We agree that old guns demand respect and careful evaluation. I don't think that avoiding violent reproof is at all a caviler attitude. A great many old guns here that can't be 'out of proof' since they were never 'in proof' are used successfully and safely. We simply relegate them for use with 'appropriate' loads.

A whole lower pressure cartridge market has resulted, and 'most' of our hand loaders are safe and competent. Just like most of our pilots and doctors. It's always the spectacular mistake though that makes the news.

With freedom comes responsibility, and with commercial activity comes liability. I believe you are in the gun trade. You can hardly recommend anything other than what you do.

Sir,
Thank you for your civil reply.
I suggested to a number of English GunTrade members that maybe we should consider British Proof Laws and advice along with Belgian Proof as advocated here in earlier posts.
Whilst being a 'good idea' it isn't a good idea to suggest to the'Masters' a better idea unless they had thought of it first.
I just do not wish to see anyone losing a hand or eye , if they lose their shirt in a deal that is their problem.
Once again thank you.

Better to fire a salute than exchange broadsides.

I just spent the day shooting, and your reply has improved my mood which was already most satisfactory.

Scotch glass raised to salopian. Cheers.

And I Lads! Rusty old McAllans...

I thought about this thread for awhile before offering this commentary to the group.

I have 2 out of proof guns. There is a distinction about out of proof.
1.) Out of Proof cannot be sold. However, if I choose to have a barrel opened greater than .008 and intend to keep the gun, it doesn't require reproof. The gun is not changing hands/being sold. I had an Edward Lang under-lever Damascus hammer gun modified. It was cyl/full. The left barrel was already too big.
I had the right barrel reamed to leave 0.010 of choke at the end.
I had the left barrel choke opened from .040 to .020.
Now I have a IC/Mod 30" hammer gun by one of the Lang brothers with decent chokes.
My MWTs are .036/.028. (A long way from 9"). The chambers are still 2 1/2".
The original bores were 13 (.710). They are now .738/.738
Yes, if I intended to sell the gun, I would have reproofed it.
But, I am not selling it, so it was not required.
I chose not to subject the Lang to modern proofs.

2.) An out of proof cannot be sold. I have a really pretty Army and Navy SLNE 12. Something along the way damaged (buldge?) the left barrel 16" from breach. The external damage was struck down and the bore honed to remove any evidence.
When they were finished butchering, the BWT was .011 16" from the breach and the left bore had opened to .743 (from .719). The thinness was right where your hand grabs the barrels prior to shooting. I have a barrel wall thickness gauge with 16" sticks. The damage/thinness is right at the limit of where my rods reach. It could have easily been missed. Many folks have barrel wall gauges with 10" rods, since proof thickness is measured at 9". Baloney, I care about my hands.
The gun was never sent to proof. It was given away with the condition it never be sold or shot.
As President of the Carolina Vintagers, I now have the gun and use it as a training tool (firing pins removed).
The gun looks great. The economics don't support a sleeving for a SLNE.
So, it will spend it's time with me showing SxS fans WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO MEASURE BARRELS.

Joe Norcom

"An out of proof cannot be sold."

British law rather ceased to have much effect in NC after the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

The only time I have run afoul of "Out of proof" in the USA, was when I was trying to sell a British gun to a dealer of "good repute". I got an educational lecture about the gun being out of proof, and how badly that affected its value yada yada. Sold him the gun at a much reduced price...shortly thereafter it appeared on his listings at a very high price. Comment was out of BRITISH proof but in excellent shooting condition..so much for that....lessons learned..

Shotgunjones, we don't recognize British Proof laws in Maryland either.

Eightbore, Maryland would recognize proof laws if they could figure out how by doing it they could then tax it, or charge a special fee, or yearly license, or eliminate a gun sale in the first place. Never lived in a state which took such delight in creating new ways to get money for nothing other than my mistake of living there.

Joe, there are options other than sleeve for that A&N.

Sub gauge tubes would at least restore it to service.

LD, that's like trying to trade an early Model 21 (DT/extractor) to a dealer. Not worth much. Funny. The ones on their lists are always "Early, rare double trigger ejector gun." Price in accordance with the "rare" part.

I hate when that happens.

Mr Brown, you are an exceedingly good shit. I have enjoyed your company and hope some day we can hunt together again. I hope my putting this in writing doesn't embarrass you. I felt the need to write it for the world to see.

Do you need to spell check that?

SRH

Thanks, Pooch. You and Pete and I need to get together to chase birds.