What are your thoughts on the early grade A Philadelphia Ansley H Fox shotguns in 12 guage? Are these good?

http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/content/ae_fox.html

wazzabie,

I have a 12 gauge early A grade and have shot a couple thousand rounds of light reloads thru it in the past 5 or 6 years. Many high base hunting loads before that. I've had the gun a little more than 48 years. Serial number 7983 and it's about 110 years old. Still bank vault tight.

Take this for a testimony for those early A grades. Pretty hard to beat.

They are my favorite Foxes. I have a bag of them and another one is the basis for my Becker Fox project.

For not that much more money, an early A is a significant step up in fit and finish compared to a typical Sterlingworth.

The earlier the Fox the better the quality.
bill

If on face and no major metal pitting they are a great gun. You can shoot as is or use for an custom project like Eightbore did. Simple design, few parts, good metal fit from the factory, long track record and plenty of parts out there if repairs are needed. Plus you can find them for real good prices.

Another + for early "A" grades. I've been hunting with one for about 15 years; after it was refreshed by Buck Hamlin.

I think an early A is one of the best values in Fox collecting. Primarily shooters, the fit, finish and quality of wood are outstanding on most examples.

If you can find one in good shape, they usually are bargains.

I found one and liked how it felt so I took it home with me. It feels light and tracks well. The barrels I were told were reblued and the stock worked on by Keith Kearcher a double gunsmith out of Oregon. I have no way to prove this however without contacting the gunsmith. The receiver has no case coloring left and was left unfinished for the vintage look. The barrel has no pitting and is bright. I wonder if the barrel was polished. I've shot some light rst 2.5in loads in it. It locks up tight. Also the buffalo bill museum has a record of the firearm when it was first sold. Looks like the photo above but with a black plastic butt plate. It has Krupp barrels.

Sounds like a great gun to me! Enjoy it and welcome to the Fox addiction!!

I'll be pulling out my early A grade 12 gauge, 30" full and full, in a little more than three weeks to start the turkey season up here. Beautiful and well made gun. For the same money, I'd take a early A grade over the later ones every day of the week.

Tell us about this. I have not heard of the Buffalo Bill Center of the West, Cody Firearms Museum or the McCracken Research Library, having any A.H. Fox Gun Co. records.

I have not seen he factory letter myself but the person I bought it from said he had obtained one. Nothing special about it. It was a sold to a timber company. I thought he obtained it from the Cody museum but I just looked at their site and they don't list it. Is there another place that would have these records?

Also I thought these were not truly Fox shotguns since they were early... eventually Savage bought them out I believe.

An early A grade is about as "true" a Fox as can be. It's likely the early A grade you bought was made was Ansley Fox still ran the place and before financial concerns caused him to lose control of the company.

For the record:
I have an early A Grade ejector gun and as far as I'm concerned it look much better plain then the later examples with IMO chintzy engraving.
Jim

Beautiful Fox CB, when was it built?

Thanks Treblig, the gun is from 1909 and has been in my family since new. I had it completely restored about 12 years ago, which coincidentally set me on the path to meeting CJO as he had a hand in the restoration. I know for a fact it had well under a box of shells through it between the late 1940's and when I started the restoration. Something like 6 shells. It's had a bit more since then!

The barrels are shinny and without pitting. Were the barrels most likely polished?

Beautiful example CB. It's nice to see what mine would look like if I had it restored.
Jim

That is a sweet Fox!! Love that wood.

ROMAC, 12 gauge?

Yes 12 gauge.

Here is another early 12 gauge Fox "A Grade." Completely redone by Buck Hamlin about 10 years ago. Chokes opened to IC & MOD. Regularly used for pheasants & quail.

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Another photo of the same shotgun. When it was restocked, i requested a "small beavertail forend".

JERRY

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Gold40, isn't that a B grade?

From the 1907 "Campfire" Catalogue --

Early B's can be put in the same category as the early A's.

Typically very high quality, and a great value.

My early 12 ga. A, restocked with a slim beavertail and a straight grip. 32" barrels and 3" chambers. The second Fox I ever bought, and a great value.



Agree with ROMAC, B's are wonderful, too. 1918 vintage BE, 32" barrels also.



SRH

Good40,

Absolutely beautiful Fox. What is the finish on the frame? I like the contrasting colors yet subtle change in color and pattern.

John

"Absolutely beautiful Fox. What is the finish on the frame? I like the contrasting colors yet subtle change in color and pattern..."

The action is/was re-case-colored, to match the original finish. Some wear, and probably sub-standard photography on my part.

gold40

Yup, looks like a B.

The bbls should be engraved as well....no?

CJ

The serial # is 85XX, and all match. The frame doesn't have an alphabet/grade stamp; but the barrel flat has a very clear "A" stamp.

Years ago I sent for a factory letter. The reply said the card was lost, and no record was available.

gold40

The A Grade is not a bad shotgun I would rate it almost as good as 10 guinea W.W. Greener.

Is this warranty still honored?

They don't have factory records for a bunch of the early guns. Interesting gun.

No, but in USA original factory tags and boxes bring lots of money. Ole' empty Ithaca Gun Co. oil tin brought shocking $800+. I mean it didn't even have 3 in 1 oil in it.

jager: sounds like you are suffering from cabin fever up there?

hang on, spring is acummin...

Ed Good, aka Ed1, the anti-gun gun dealer, what do you think about having a Supreme Court Justice who is unlikely to agree with your vision of banning guns?



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yawn...

Why are the early doubles called pre-fox?

here is a link to the place where there is much valuable info re fox guns...https://www.foxcollectors.com/

On that site the term "pre fox" is used. Why is it called pre fox? Is that to imply that these are not true fox shotguns?

Baltimore Arms Co., initiated in January 1900 and ending business in October 1904, was a "predecessor" to A H Fox Gun Co. Ansley Fox was involved in the business, but was mostly preoccupied with competition shooting at that time. The Fox Gun Co., Baltimore used a patent issued to Frank Hollenbeck.

Ansley Fox was granted a patent for his new gun design in December, 1902. Philadelphia Arms Co. was incorporated in November, 1902.

Both of these companies were heavily influenced by the presence of Ansley Fox, IMO, and could be considered pre-Fox, because the "true" Fox was the A H Fox gun, which was taking shape 1904/1905 and became the Fox that we know today as the A H Fox, in all it's grades, and Sterlingworth.

For much more in the business maneuvering that took place between Baltimore Arms, Philadelphia Arms and A H Fox Gun Co., you should purchase a copy of A H Fox by Michael McIntosh. My brief summary may even be slightly inaccurate, but the whole history can be mused in the book.

SRH

You've got that bass ackwards, Stan. Read my article in the latest Fox Collectors Newsletter. That is a chapter of McIntosh's book that needs a rewrite, as does the chapter on Philadelphia Arms Co.

The Fox Gun Co., Balto., MD., U.S.A. and Philadelphia Arms Co. can be considered predecessors to the A.H. Fox Gun Co.

Baltimore Arms Co. was a blip in the history of Frank A. Hollenbeck guns. Ansley H. Fox was neither an officer or director of Baltimore Arms Co. and during the years of its existence he was either working for Winchester or busy founding Philadelphia Arms Co.

Are any shotguns from the A.H. Fox Gun Co. considered as pre fox?

Thanks, Dave, for the correction. I'll admit to not having sat down and read the last newsletter closely, but that is a good reason to. I was basing my post strictly on the book. I need to be more careful.

Best, SRH

This might help:

https://www.foxcollectors.com/pre-fox-guns/philadelphia-arms

Not really. I guess one could consider the 1910 The Sterlingworth Co. guns to be pre-Fox in that the Sterlingworth then appeared in the 1911 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog.

So what I actually have is an AE early grade Fox that is marked Ansley H Fox. I much prefer these shotguns over the ones that have so much engraving. The barrels have been reblued by a well known double gun smith before I acquired it. Since it is not original it is not a collector piece which is ok with me. I'ven taken it shooting several times with some light load rst shells. It tracks beautifully and is elegant to hold. This one is a keeper and also was found for a very good deal if these are selling for over 1k.