Charles Daly Hammergun thread to kick-off discussion on Charles Daly, Lindner control stamped & non-Lindner control stamped, examples.

....."Schoverling, Daly, and Gales catalog circa 1885".....

"There are 6 hammerless models listed, two of which can be eliminated (a diamond quality gun and an 8 gauge only model).

A "No.42" hammergun is listed as having a "Scott action, Damascus barrels, scroll fence breech, bar rebounding locks, pistol grip, Deeley & Edge forend, rib extension and rubber butt" - offered in 10 and 12 gauge for $75.

The "No. 53" is listed as similar to a No. 42 except with a "Purdey double underbolt, plain engraving." It retailed for $90 and was offered in 10 and 12 gauge only..

The "No. 55" is listed as the same as a No. 53 with "3 pin locks, ornamental rubber buttplate, scroll engraving." Offered in 10, 12, 16, and 20 gauge it retailed for $100.

The "No. 60" is listed as similar to a "No. 55" with "fine Cluny Damascus barrels, fine engraving and checkering." It was offered in 10 and 12 gauge for $130.

The "No. 100" was a diamond quality gun and retailed for $200. "

Note the 3 pin lock variant.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=187282

Excerpt from 1887 S,D&G catalogue:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=235930&page=15

"Daly hammer guns are offered with the Scott action and Deeley and Edge forend latch. Extension rib and slight engraving on Model 401 for $70.
Model 402 same as 401, but with Purdey double bolt at $80.
Model 403 same as 402 but with 3 pin lock and more engraving at $90.
Model 404 same as 403, but with Cluny Damascus , fine engraving, at $120.
Model 405 , Diamond Quality, with Bernard or Turkish first quality barrels, exquisite engraving at $200."

A few adverts from the same 1870/1871 publication to set the tone for S,D&G's competition.


Jos. C. Grubb & Co. - Purdey variants


John W. Hutchinson


John Krider


John P. Lovell


William Reed & Sons




Schuyler, Hartley & Graham


Joseph Tonks & William R. Schaefer below


William Wurfflein of Philadelphia

vs. Schoverling & Daly who rose to the top:



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly - H.A. Lindner Nr. 1569 w/ Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown being the 1st sighting thus far of the Lindner control mark:






Tubeset knitter had the initials K.S.


Anyone care to hasten a guess that this is a Modell Nr. 55 or Modell Nr. 403???


Use of the Deeley & Edge forend mechanism dates it post then.

And believe you me in the 1870s & 1880s Charles Daly, W. & C. Scott & others offer a boat load of 10 bore hammerguns. I have strong suspicions that the long toplever & forend bump can be attributed to the Triebel klan.

In my notes, I have Charles Daly Nr. 796 as being manufactured in 1872. Anyone confirm that?

Well, a picture is worth a 1000 words as usual w/ the date on the brass escutcheon:



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly Hammergun Nr. 1092 w/ what looks to be an attached forend on a Jones Underlever platform. Anyone know of other Charles Daly hammerguns w/ attached forends?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I am a bit lost on the Daly numbers, etc. , but here is what I see here.

Hammerless Guns
#245. 12 ga. Daly Diamond Grade, Deeley and Edge forend, pistols and crown, also H.A.L. 538 or 588 or similar

Hammer Guns
T.Golcher, 12, #2163, Deeley and Edge, pistols and crown
Overbaugh, 12 , #3744, Deeley and Edge, pistols and crown
Daly, 10, very high grade, #893, CKL on receiver flats, Deeley and Edge, no crown or pistols or HAL,
Frank Kuhn, 16 ga., #2726, Deeley and Edge, Pistols and crown

Mr. Hallquist, the Hammerless you note are more than likely the 2nd serialization sequence while the hammerguns are in the 1st set. Have you a Overbaugh 1885 catalgoue? Golcher 1662 is noted as having Lindner's control stamp.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Deeley & Edge forend fastner - protection in 1872 Britain & 1873 - U.S. of A.

I'm certain V. Chr. Schilling was in Daly's sourcing modell and it looks like V. Chr. Schilling had a unique bump on the forend.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So far, all those fit into the serial number sequencing discussed in the previous thread. Here is the basic framework. For review and comment.

1. First series, five digit Scott-sequence serial numbers. No Lindner mark. Mfg early 1870's.

2. Second series, possibly starting with #1, with the first Lindner mark (pistols and crown) observed on Golcher 1662, probably marking when Heinrich took over production and Georg retired. Latest example being Overbaugh 3474. (If mark is crowned, rather than HAL marked) (edit, latest being #3950)

3. Third series, numbers restarted and HAL mark used, post 1892 Proof Law change.

I'm obviously considering the early Scott numbers to be the first set.

Regards
Ken

Raimey, I edited my post to be more clear. All guns are marked Daly, and or, have a Lindner stamp. I do have the Overbaugh catalog and it reeks of Daly sourcing. They were neighbors in NY, too. Must be some reason for the connection of the two. Maybe Overbaugh , who was a fine gunsmith of rifle fame, including Sharps, was a tool of some sort for Daly.

If Daly 796 was made in 1872, should we be considering pushing back the estimate of mfg. year for the earlier guns?

Regards
Ken

I think that establishing a manufacturing year is just an estimate. So many things can happen to a numbered gun before its manufacturing year comes up. As an example, a finely engraved gun might end its manufacturing process long after a plain gun with a close serial number.

I believe that it is possible to find benchmarks for production vs year but there are exceptions and it would be an approximation. With the A&D Body Action w/ only lower scears @ Nr. 92, makes one wonder if there were parallel serialization w/ hammerguns have one sequence & hammerless having another???


C. Daly


Anson & Deeley Brevete(APUN) Nr. 212



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Lindner Daly 10 g


JB Patton, what can you tell us about your 10 bore?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly Nr. 001 - sidelever w/ encircled PB on flats:


Charles Daly Laminated Steel





Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly Nr. 1332 w/ 1st Lindner style control stamp:








LE or EE initials coupled w/ Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So, now we have an "overlap" of serial numbers, as to when the first Lindner mark was used. Earliest example being 1332, with 1569 lacking the Mark, as pertaining to the first Lindner serial number sequence, after the five digit Scott numbers.

Probably a good example of what Daryl noted, with 1332 being released later, after engraving. Is it reasonable to think the mark was applied at the end of the process, right before the gun is released?

Number 001 carries the circled PB, same as both Joe's and my gun, which have the five digit Scott numbers.

Regards
Ken

Hard to tell, but 001's tubes may have looked something like this when new..

Ken61:

Unless someone produces an image of Nr. 1569 showing the absence of the Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown, I say that it wears the mark as that is how I have it in my notes and also the initials of the tubeset knitter was KS. Of course my notes could be wrong. 1569 is greater than 1332 so I'd say that said mark occurs earlier as the dataset that folks have been working from is say 1/10 of the overall production, being some 4k examples, so sampling is from a very finite set. Lindner & company was probably churning out say a dozen to dozen & 1/2 per month. Nr. 1332 has minimal engraving & would have more than likely not been delayed w/ respect to production.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Here's the source of the confusion about 1569. It's your post #466969, on page six of the previous thread. Please clarify, I'm basically just providing analysis, and certainly do not claim to have done the research.

Charles Daly 10 Bore 162
Charles Daly 10 bore 601 has CFW initials
Charles Daly 10 bore 796 with Jones Underlever was made in late 1871 or in 1872
C.F. Schilling St. Louis 953 with AS on left tube with AH in Action well
Charles Daly 10 bore 1033 has wide forend latch Deeley & Edge but not Lindner marks
Charles Daly 1092 with RS on tube and AR in action well
Thomas L. Golcher 1120 2 barrel set(No. 134?) - McPhail
Charles Daly 20 bore 125x possibly with English preliminary
Charles Daly 1366 has AS
Charles Green Rochester NY has AS
Charles Daly 10 bore 1569 has KS and no Lindner marks
Thomas Golcher 1662 no initials but H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas Golcher 1741 has RS and H.A. Lindner stamps
Charles Daly 10 bore 1846 has H.A. Lindner's stamps
Charles Daly 10 bore 2015 has KS & H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas L. Golcher - 212x with H.A. Lindner stamps
George W. Golcher 2187 no initials but H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas Golcher 2403 has KS and H.A. Lindner stamps
Joseph Jakob 2962 has H.A. Lindner stamps A&D Brevete #1152
Joseph Jakob 3246 has H.A. Lindner stamps
Joseph Jakob 3241? in calibre 40-82
Charles Overbaugh 3474 has RS and H.A. Lindner stamps

Regards
Ken

Sure Raimey,
What would you like to know?
I have a diamond grade hammer 10 and another field grade hammer 12 also.
Best regards,
JBP

Ken61:

I can't say either way from my notes but in an effort to err on the side of caution, I'd say you are correct & my notes omits the word "no."

JBP:

Ah, just basic info like serial number or partial & noting any marks forward of the flats along with characters on the underside of the left tube near the lower rib.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

You may very well be right about 1569 having the first Lindner mark. If 1332 has it, 1569 should as well.

Back to the Action Crosspin location issue. From the pictures it appears so far that the change occurred during the series of the first Lindner mark, between numbers 1569 and 2167, with the pin location moving from front of the hammers to the rear of the action. For anyone with a gun between those numbers, please post pics of the action, (if possible) note the serial number, and confirm that the gun has the first mark, being the Pistols/Crown.

Also, if anyone has a gun numbered between 1332 and 1662, please tell us if it has the mark or not.

Regards
Ken

Raimey,
As requested, my CD hammer shotguns:

My 10g in the photo:
# 920. / NO barrel stamps ( Lindner pistols)
Just small letters A.S.

30% scroll engraved 12 ga
# 2560 / crown over crossed pistols
Small letters K.S.

Diamond grade 10 ga
# 2544 / crown over crossed pistols
Small letters E.E.

Best regards,
JBP

Schilling ?? From July 19, 1983 and repeated from 1882 Daly denied a Schilling connection.

Val. Chr. Schilling hammergun


Deeley & Edge forend fastner - protection in 1872 Britain & 1873 - U.S. of A.


Val. Chr. Schilling advert 1883 from 1882 then. Val. Chr. Schilling more than likely had the bulk of the machinery and along w/ Treibel performed the heavy lifting on Schoverling, Daly & Gales' "The Daly Gun". Krieghoff purchased V.C. Schilling's machinery in 1919 & more than likely upon said machinery many of the later Dalys were manufactured.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just wondering what you can tell me about this Charles Daly/Lindner serial #1670 Hammergun:

I'll jump in. First Lindner serial number series, (second if you count early Scott five digit numbers) using first Lindner mark. Heinrich had taken over from Georg, at (as far as we know) around the time of production of #1332, the earliest gun we know of with the first mark. We think the locks were produced in England. (No ID of a Continental maker as of yet). Although these Schilling guns raises a possibility.

Hopefully Raimey will jump in with views on the marks on the tubes.

Interesting. Cross pin is forward of the hammers like the earlier Scott guns, and the tubes appear to be Twist.

Any chance of pics of the insides of the locks?

Regards
Ken

Ken, not my gun and I don't know if owner has the skill to take the locks off. I'll ask.

What is the highest serial number we know of for the first Lindner series? I'm thinking with production of around 100 guns per year, can you roughly date based on serial number/transition point of 1892, given lack of other markings.

The highest serial number for the first mark so far is #3744.

"H.A. Linder - Suhl
Founded 1874
Berlin Salesrooms
P. Helbig Wilhelmstrasse 53
Specialty
Charles Daly Guns
For
Export to North America"

So, 1874 for Heinrich's firm's founding, with the big Daly deal and his marriage to Hedwig coming later, around 1877.

All as per Raimey.

I'm hesitant so far as an attempt to date, I'll leave that for Raimey. If lock crosspin location is related to serial number, this gun bumps the number for last forward located pins from 1569 to 1670.

Regards
Ken

Charles Daly Nr. 1581 wears the Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown and Nr. 380, as well as 322, also wears the Crossed Sidearms surmounted by something, which makes me wonder if the transition from Crown to HAL was somewhat into the 2nd series? Nr. 854, has Script L above HAL and Nr. 955 has HAL.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here's a question for those following along: anyone agree that the proper colour of the pattern welded tubes in the 1st series is Brown?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Odd that the initials, JW, of the mechanic who was the tubeset knitter is on the underside of the right pattern welded tube. Off the cuff, I'd guess Julius Werner of Suhl and less probability to Julius Wolf of Z-M. Some wild math w/ a few benchmarks would narrow the date to circa 1879 but for now that is truly suspect. Also, another wild calculation is that the Lindner quality seal of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown was implemented on examples between 1000 & 1125????

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So far, I believe 1332 is the first example of the Crown mark. Unless I've missed something.

Tough call on the color. It's reasonable to think all guns have converted to brown by this time. Given the guns were made for America, to me, black is more probable.

You'd think 322 and 380 were second series guns, post 1892. That is, if the serial numbers restarted for the hammer guns as well. If crosspin location relates to serial number, both guns should have pins to the rear of the action.

It looks like 1670 was basically a Field Grade gun. Unadorned by engraving and having Twist tubes.

Regards
Ken

Looks like the transition from Crown to HAL was around 500 into the 2nd series. I still hold that the pattern welded tubes in the 1st Lindner series were brown & the 2nd Lindner series, or post 500 or greater, were black.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Are you referring to 500 after the serial numbers restarted post 1892?

To me, the Julia auction picture of 1332 looks like Black & White.

So far, the first mark appears to go from 1332-3744 in the first Lindner serial number sequencing, continuing after 1892 proof law change and reset of numbers, to Raimey's assertion of change to HAL mark at around #500 during the second Lindner serial number sequence.


DocDrew, when you see this, what is your opinion on the coloring?

Regards
Ken

Appears to be a dark image w/ shading? But most, if not all, of the early Lindner & Sauer pattern welded tubes in a state of high condition are a lovely plum/brown colour and I just don't think them to be refinished. How would it be possible to over time transform from a black steady state to a brown steady state?



Yeah, from the Charles Daly muzzle-loaders thru the 1st series being plum & somewhere during the change, from there forward black to pair w/ the black new fangled fluid steel steady state colour.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It's because Black rust is unstable, and subject to oxidation, turning to the more stable Brown form. Once original lacquer is rubbed off over time, this occurs. The lacquer would have to have been periodically renewed to prevent this. Very rare in the vast majority of cases. Even on guns with remaining lacquer on the Action rarely have any remaining on the tubes. On unprotected barrel segments hanging in my shop, they turn noticeably browner after only a matter of months.

Regards
Ken

T. Kilby

"I'm going to show a couple of pictures of my Daly and maybe this will help explain what Eightbore is referring to when he says "etched". The first picture is the original barrels to my gun and they are "etched". By that I mean they have a very definite texture to them. They are not smooth. BTW, these barrels are in original finish, they have not been redone.


The second set of barrels are what is called "Manufacture Extra". This nomeclature is from the company catalog of (forgive the missing accent marks) Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu. Portions of this catalog are printed in Manfred Sachase's book on damascus steel. At the time of manufacture it appears that these barrrels were 5 times more expensive that the cheapest barrels from this company. This set of barrels have been redone in the classic black & white."


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66563&Searchpage=1&Main=6307&Words=Sachase%27s&Search=true#Post66563

So ever would the area of the unexposed lower rib transform over time? Then how would the ones that are currently black withstand the test of time?

Puglisi Guns has a hammer Daly in the 11xx range if anyone knows them well enough to ring them to see if it wears the Crown over Crossed Sidearms?

http://puglisiguns.cloudapp.net/inventory/9811

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
this gun has both H.A.L. and the crown with crossed pistols.


Hammerless Guns
#245. 12 ga. Daly Diamond Grade, Deeley and Edge forend, pistols and crown, also H.A.L. 538 or 588 or similar

Which one Mr. Hallquist is a transition example? Photobucket is horrid today & appears to have been hacked or used as a thru-put. Anyway, I will get the image of the Lefever sidelever flats w/ the serial nummer, encircled HAL on the bottom of the aft lug & Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown up as soon as possible.....


Finally.... Lindner Nr. 1816, RS initials & encircled HAL

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Can you forward me an image of : "Hammerless Guns
#245. 12 ga. Daly Diamond Grade, Deeley and Edge forend, pistols and crown, also H.A.L. 538 or 588 or similar." & what is the APUN #?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, pics in your email. Daryl

HAL #378/388 along with Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown.


245 on water-table & not APUN visible.

I still contend that the transition from Crown to HAL is near Nr. 500 in the 2nd series. I wonder if the assumption could be made that that occurred @ January 1893?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, expanding the photo above, I think the number beside H.A.L. might be 338. I am pretty sure of the first and last numbers.

I too see and 1st it was stamped 388 then 378. I wonder if there exists a sporting arm w/ Crown over Crossed Sidearms and German proofmarks, not repair but appropriate proofs for the time?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here's some pics of FHALZ@AOL.COM's (FRANK) guns, with more to come.

Wonderful Daly's..

A hammerless double:

deleted

".... is Without Quetion ..."

Schoverling, Daly & Gales had a satellite office @ 65 Weaman Street, Birmingham, which is the same address as Henry Tolley so Daly more than likely used Henry Tolley, or J. Tolley, to sourced components from Scott.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=469136#Post469136


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Owl-Right - WISE MOVE - We have just the gun for Upland Shooting - Sauer Gun No. 1 at $60

But what caught my eye was the trap shooting advert below & that led to the Rose System of Money dispersal:



https://books.google.com/books?id=6aQvAQ...ney&f=false

Trapshooting: The Patriotic Sport.....

I had not idea of the many variants in money division. Were Rose & Jack Rabbit the most prevalent?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly - Lindner - A&D Body Action Nr. 307


w/ Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown paired w/ SAXONY Nr. 307 w/ initials LE.

I'd say that we will see the stamp of Saxony w/ Crown over Crossed Sidearms transition to HAL over Crossed Sidearms around Nr. 500 in the 2nd Lindner series.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly - Lindner Nr. 298 w/ Saxony paired w/ Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown & the tubeset knitter/mechanic w/ the initials LE was quite engaged.




APUN is absent so manufacture date outside of A&D Body Action protection period.



So again, sometime near 1890 there was a changing of the guard w/ respect to serialization & at the time a new series commenced and more than likely the new proof rules utilizing a crown, St. Stephens' / whatever, forced Lindner to commission a new stamp of HAL over Crossed Sidearms and in the transition period of 1890-1893 Saxony was paired w/ the stamp of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just wild speculation for now, but the preponderance of evidence puts a thumb on the scale pointing toward a possibility that Lindner commenced anew his numbering scheme w/ the patent protection period for the Anson & Deeley Body Action patent of May 11th, 1875(Britain) or February 1st, 1876(filed Dec. 16th, 1876(U.S. of A. Nr. 172943) noting the 14 year run of the British protection period, i.e. the 1st Lindner serialization sequence paralleled the 1876 A&D Body Action period. Although, the bulk of the Lindner - Daly A&D Body Action platforms are the subsequent 1882(Nr. 4089 of August 26th-Britain)/1884(Nr. 305264 of Sept. 16th) design, Lindner seems to have held with the 1875/1876 protection period? If so, this would be a benchmark to date the Lindner - Daly offerings. Anyone have any corroborating info, or even something against? Or maybe a correction on the patent protection period as I always seem to get it mixed.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The above is given as Charles Daly - Lindner Nr. 713 being a Featherweight & wearing HAL over Crossed Sidearms.

So this narrows the transition field from Saxony Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown @ 307 to HAL over Crossed Sidearms @ 713.

Nr. 709 also wears HAL over Crossed Sidearms:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/975521241/Ea...els-ANTIQUE.htm

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Lindner Daly Nr. 1569 w/ 1873 on stock escutcheon.


C. Daly Nr. 92


Anson & Deeley Brevete(APUN) Nr. 212

I really don't see any other solution less there were different serialization sequences for hammer & hammerless Charles Dalys?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66415&page=1

Charles Daly Nr. 29x noted as being 1891 or pre-1893 production. That would loosely follow w/ 14 years from the British patent protection period & seem to support a production number of say a dozen and half per month. I'm curious if there any Charles Daly's out there w/ the Crown over V / on-hand stamp for early 1893?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hmmm,

With 1875 being the earliest possibe year for the A&D IPUN, and the presence of first Lindner serialization A&D guns lacking the first Lindner mark, could that indicate Heinrich taking control a little later? Say, 1877, at the time of the Daly deal and his marriage? Especially if the Daly deal provided enough security for Georg to retire?

Regards
Ken

Many thanks Ken61 for following along and brainstorming w/ me & once again, a whale of a good postulate. But I'm just not sure and the sand has just been pouring in my hole in the Lindner-Daly sandbox & I haven't sorted it out just yet. I too think 1877 to be that transition period but just how many lower scear A & D Body Action might Schoverling, Daly & Gales have peddled from 1877(1875) to 1882??? Now the upper hanging & lower intercepting scear variants cannot predate 1882. Again, still a lot of sand to sift but aren't we having fun.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

But I can tell you one easy & simple, being accurate most of the time w/ exceptions I sure, method to quickly discern whether 1st or 2nd series & that is to note Brown/Plum on the colour of the tubes on the 1st set(possibly including a few up to the Crown/Sidearms transition to HAL/Sidearms) & Black on the 2nd, whether pattern welded or fluid steel.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Do you now consider this thread to be incorrect?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...amp;type=thread

Regards
Ken

Yes, leaning that way but if anyone could post an image of a 1st series Charles Daly - Lindner w/ Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown stamped on pattern welded tubes in the colour of black, I might be led to think otherwise? If not, or if one doesn't exist then the preponderance of evidence is going to quickly mount in the brown/plum camp.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

"The second set of barrels are what is called "Manufacture Extra". This nomeclature is from the company catalog of (forgive the missing accent marks) Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu. Portions of this catalog are printed in Manfred Sachase's book on damascus steel. At the time of manufacture it appears that these barrrels were 5 times more expensive that the cheapest barrels from this company. This set of barrels have been redone in the classic black & white."


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66415&page=4

Better stated, when you see original black on tubes of a Charles Daly example, you can all but be assured it is in the 2nd sequence of serialization.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://www.rogerbain.com/product/charles-daly-by-lindner-2522/

Charles Daly - Lindner Nr. 939 is in the above link & I'd bet a $ to a donut hole that it falls in the 2nd sequence.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ken61:

If you have a handle on the top end of the 2nd Lindner series, it would run from 1890 to say mid 1915 & then see what production numbers were in that effort.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Wouldn't it be more plausible that the second series numbers started circa 1892, coinciding with the proof law change?

If we extrapolate from there using the 15 gun per month model through 1915, the estimate for the last serial numbers of the second sequence would be approx #4500. If 18 guns per month it would be approx. #5400. The last of the "Lindner Daly's"....

Using the same calculus, they continued using the first mark for a couple of years into the second series, transitioning to the second (HAL) mark at around two to three years of the second series, (1894-1895?) using the estimate of approx the #500 gun.

Even the estimate of #5400 may be low, depending on the degree of expansion during the 1905-1906 period when Ernst came into his own. Which also coincided with the Edwardian Period and the "Golden Age of Shotgunning".

Regards
Ken

"H.A. Linder - Suhl
Founded 1874
Berlin Salesrooms
P. Helbig Wilhelmstrasse 53
Specialty
Charles Daly Guns
For Export to North America"

Interesting bit of information. Is it plausible that Heinrich spent a few years in Berlin at this time in order to learn the Marketing side of the business? Then return to Suhl in 1877 to marry and to take over the business from Georg?

It must of been an exciting time in Berlin in those days, coming off the victory of the Franco-Prussian War, The unification of Germany into the German Empire under Bismark, and the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine. The true ascendant period of German history.

Regards
Ken

Ken61:

I see little info, if any, that extends the cutoff date for the 1st sequence forward of 1890. H.A. Lindner's Crown was changed to HAL circa 1892/1893 but not the serialization.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly hammergun Nr. 836 whose custodian is Edwardian and it wears a Schilling style forend bump & I for one would guess it is pretty much a Schilling product w/ Triebel components.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

To hash out any difference between the hammergun serialization & the hammerless serialization, we need to find a hammergun & hammerless w/ the same serial number.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

OK,

If this gun is from the second serialization sequence and is a higher number than #500, it should carry the second Lindner mark as well.

Note the gun's action crosspin is in a different location than the earlier (we think) Birmingham-sourced locks, with it being to the rear of the hammers, but higher up on the side plate. This would appear to validate that by this time they were sourcing the components locally, using the as-stated Triebel components.

So far it seems to me (and I may be wrong) that the serial number sequencing is holding true, with both hammer and hammerless guns falling into the established ranges. I suspect the A&D APUN numbers are out of sequence, possibly using a Francotte numbering series for assigning the patent, with the numbers being bought individually or in blocks. So, having little relationship to the Lindner numbers.


Just curious, but why do you put the change in serialization at 1890 rather than 1892? It just seems more logical to me that the change to the second number sequence would be in response to the proof law change.

Regards
Ken

Ken61:

Maybe a bit off track, but the above is a Charles Daly badged hammergun wearing a number of 836 and the only marks given were the tubeset knitter CK. So a S,D&G badged and evidently didn't pass thru H.A. Lindner's hands but maybe Georg??

On the 1890 date, to be convinced otherwise, all I would need to see is a 2nd series wearing an inverted APUN on the standing breech. Payment of royalty & application of APUNs @ a satellite stamping station would have dropped off mid 1889. 1st serialization sequences mimics patent protection period for the A&D Body Action. More on the calculus later....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Some other outliers are the unadorned E.C. Schmidt's examples 1424 & 1522 that have additions that seem to suggest completion post 1900. Maybe they laid about for a time. But I contend that Daly had control of the serial number sequence or @ least set the groundwork. E.C. Schmidt Nr. 1424 wears the initials E.C. on each side of the water table & on one of the tubes & I'd hazard a guess it notes effort by an E. Schilling or Ernst Schilling. Schmidt might have added some effort but I'm doubtful unless additional examples post WWI surface w/ the same E.S. initial stamp.

E.C. Schmidt underwent his apprentice study in Suhl and then immigrated to the U.S. of A. and picked up the pieces of the William R. Schaefer shop.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404463&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Henry kindly forwarded info on his Charles Daly - Lindner hammergun being Serial #2901, 10ga hammer gun w/ 30" barrels "Charles Daly Damascus Barrels" on top rib & initials JW.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

My word at the "stuff" in that Damascus Colour thread, but it would appear that I have had in hand Charles Daly - Lindner Nr. 459 & it wasn't #500 so I missed it by 41 examples?:

#459 with 615 on tubes near forend-lug
with "Crown" over "V" on watertable?
Crossed Pistols over HAL high on the tubes near the forend-lug
Dolls head extension & ejectors
initials "R.S." - guess Robert Schleglemilch
interesting "Made In Prussia" stamp around the hammer screw where there was also "Charles Daly"

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236153&page=8

If it wore a Crown over V(Vorrat) the it was completed in Spring 1893.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1905 Advert
"Daly" Gun Factory - Established 1871

Schoverling, Daly & Gales - Established 1865

I was looking for one of the Schoverling & Daly 1871 hammergun adverts & I stumbled across this 1905 advert, which I'm sure I've posted prior. But I think it lends credence to the theory that Charles Daly controlled the serial numbers.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1871 The Daly Gun Advert noting W.R. Schaefer & Thos. L. Golcher

The above was what for which I was searching. Now to sift thru all the serial numbers in the Daly Colour thread to check for duplicate serial numbers.......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

OK,

A first series gun, rather than second, lacking the first Lindner mark. So much for using lock design and sourcing as an aid to dating. Does this sound right? It appears some locks now were sourced locally, within the first series, yet before the time Heinrich took over from Georg. A fairly low number, so pre-1877?

This gun also "Begs the Question" that possibly Daly/Georg were sourcing complete guns from Schilling during the first series, possibly before completion of the Daly-Lindner agreement in the 1877-78 time frame?

I'm using the terms "first series" and "second series" for the Lindner, post-Scott serial numbers, and "first mark" and "second mark" (crown, then HAL) for the marks attributed to Heinrich.

I can't remember what year American import laws were changed requiring country of origin stampings, but I assume guns marked "Saxony" or "Made in Prussia" were after it was enacted.

Now, to me, that's a Black & White gun, falling into the first series. But, original or restored?

I need to step back, review all the threads and reconsolidate my notes. My brain is beginning to hurt.

Regards
Ken

Schilling for the most part did the heavy lifting in crafting metal to adaptable form and then Triebel added talent and flare to technical components(I have wondered in what state the A&D Body Actions arrived???). Boys Lindner & their mechanics added final flare w/ H.A. Lindner acting as QA/QC. Then Hugo Kolb added the adornment. A question I have as which concerns did H.A. Lindner pass thru on his walkabout & where was he in the early 1870s??? In the 2nd series it would seem that H.A. Lindner migrated to Sauer & M-4 & I have for a time thought he spent quite some time in an area set aside by Sauer as a upper rung room. Once S,D&G really spooled up, H.A. Lindner alone could not fully supply the needs of the American market that S,D&G developed.

Up until say the last decade in the 19th Century, the Germans wanted to be British & actually German governing bodies had strong British ties. Krupp seems to be the one that brought back national identity to Germany, with which confidence & pride in their own products was developed. Actually, I think the craftsmen had to convince the masses that inland Germany could produce wares as good or better than their British counterparts. So I'd still say Brown on the pattern welded tubes until the black coloured steel was prominent & then the pattern welded tubes were black.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Krupp's supremacy was cemented during the Franco-Prussian war. No matter how much elan the French showed, it was no match for the superiority of Krupp arms, causing the withering of the French Army at Sedan.

Ever read Manchester's "The Arms of Krupp"?

Regards
Ken

Not fully Ken61.

A premise surrounding the the term Saxony paired w/ the Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown was a stop gap measure to comply w/ the 1890 McKinley Tariff Act which was effective March 1891. More than likely the British led the charge on this requiring the Germans to stamp their wares to indicate the country of origin. Preußische Sachsen would actually be the term but the Brits required the name in the origin stamp to be either English or French, and the Americans more than likely followed suit. Japan had the same identity issue w/ Nippon & English term Japan. Then say in 1893 the Germans could no longer use the term Saxony as the name in the origin could not be a city, province, state, department or other division but rather the actual country of origin. So when H.A. Lindner made the transition from his QA/QC stamp of Crossed Pistols surmounted by a Crown to Crossed Pistols surmounted by HAL, the term PRUSSIA was added to the lot to replaced the inaccurate/invalid Saxony state term. It would be a viable option to date German wares with the origin stamp of Saxony between March of 1891 and say March of 1893. So when Suhl actually learned their identity w/ respect to exported wares, then Prussia was used. Remember on the average the time from which a sporting arm was issued a serial number to the final state of completion could have been as much as 6 month(per Daly).

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I few points pending my review and reconsolidation.

As far as A&D actions. Do you think they were sourced directly from Francotte, complete with brevet number? Or, was someone like Schilling licensed by Francotte for production, who then applied a brevette number issued by Francotte? Either would indicate out of sequence numbers.

A note on the Schilling gun. The C/coloring is different on each lock. It could indicate later restoration attempts, not to mention the fairly good barrel condition. Considering these C/C and barrel coloring processs were still being used even by the time the gun was 40 years old.

Regards
Ken

Indeed from Westley Richards thru Francotte. If we could find info on the APUN payments we'd have it(follow the money). I don't recall the A&D Body Action patent being filed in Suhl but the mechanics rode several different platforms in an attempt to settle on one while the A&D Body Action protection period played out.

Charles Daly, or his agents, were the thread that binds from Scott to Tolley, Lindner and forward to the Belgian example below:

http://www.hallowellco.com/charles_daly_Sidelock%20Side%20by%20Side%2020%20Gauge%20prewar.htm thru Francotte.

Note, they, S,D&G, always defines the Modell by Quality Number.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ken61:

What number is the above? I'm looking for examples in the 2nd series w/ Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown & are devoid of the SAXONY state of origin stamp. There should have been 200 or so examples before the state of origin stamp SAXONY was applied.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Seems the transition to be compliant went thru a couple iterations: Saxony - Thüringen - Prussia.

Broadly:
215 - 350 - Saxony
350 - 500 - Thüringen
550 - Prussia.

Apparently there were a 1/2 dozen or more of Schaefer's offerings marked Thüringen. I wonder what he was up to in 1892?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It's #248, so, a second series gun before the second mark was used
Regards
Ken

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20a/a%20ancion%20dd%20et%20fils%20gb.htm

With a tip of the hat to PeteM's efforts.


Just a few note on Liege tube sourcing set up by Charles Daly. Ancion & Cie.(Alfred Ancion, Dieudonné Ancion(father), Jules Ancion), Auguste Francotte, Renkin Frères, Pirlot Frères all combined to form Société des Anglais and by the time with which we are concerned, I'm sure some of the above were still picking up the pieces. Auguste Francotte is also a thread that binds or a staple when one considers @ the Daly-Suhl-Liege sourcing. At 1st, Daly was sourcing Dieudonné Ancion / Société des Anglais for in the white wares and then Val. Chr. Schilling was bringing it to final form and passed thru the Lindner shop. Next, rough pattern welded tubes were forwarded to Schilling, possibly along w/ a Gesteck, and the whole lot was assembled and passed under H.A. Lindner's quality control eye & he applied his mark noting approval. An alternative was that all was shipped to Lindner & he dispersed it to his subcontractors, but I'm not sure here.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Can't seem to quickly put my fingers on an image of an example akin to Nr. 854 w/ Script L but I have strong suspicions that Lepage - Schaefeer & Kaufman(Gustave)-(CAC touchmark) were in Daly's sourcing modell.


Schaeffer & Kaufman - Liege Belgium, Hart E. Berg - agent - 281 Church Street, New York(1889 Merchant listing)

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I've recently received the barrels from Daly #113X, a 10ga gun that will be going into my next run. The set has only the rib lettering and the serial number, so I would put it into the first Lindner serial number sequence, yet prior to the use of the first Lindner mark. To me, the pattern looks like Bernard, and what coloring remains looks like Black & White. Sooo, possibly supporting even the early guns were Black & White. Since it's so early, I'd attribute it to Georg.



Regards
Ken

Most interesting, but I'm not convinced just yet. Any initials on the underside of the tubes just forward of the flats?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

No other marks are present. I don't have the rest of the gun, but I'll ask the owner as to what marks are on the action flats. One thing interesting about this set is that it's the first set of Vintage tubes I've seen that still has some small patches of lacquer remaining. No doubt it is probably due to relacquering rather than original, but at least it shows that at some point an effort was made to preserve the coloring, either the original or a recoloring effort.

Regards
Ken

Thanks Ken. From our guesstimates on dating Dalys, do you recall if Nr. 275 falls in 1878? I'll have to re-read to refresh.

Ah, wrong thread. I guess I should move the images over.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Anyone have any idea what this 3rd Party Hosting is all about?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ah, below is a snippet of the new Photobucket Terms of Service as of the 28th day of June, 2017:

Visiting : There is no cost to visit the Site or to register as a Member.

Free account : Each individual Member gets one free account that provides 2 GB of free storage or space available for your original photo files, or videos under 10min. The free account does not allow any image linking or 3rd party image hosting. If a free account Member exceeds their Content Limit, their account will be immediately suspended and they will need to become a “Paying Member” (defined below) in order to continue accessing their account. You can upgrade to a Plus account at any time.

Ad-free Account : The Ad-free Account offers Members the ability to use the Site without seeing any third party banner advertisements when logged into your Ad-free Account (note, viewers of your images within Photobucket will see ads unless they, too, have Plus accounts and you will continue to see Photobucket offers and announcements). This account level is available for $2.49 / month, payable by the Member on a monthly recurring basis.

Plus Account : The Plus Account offers several paid options that may give the Paying Member more storage, bandwidth, 3rd party image hosting, image linking and/or other services as outlined below. Once and during such period of time in which you subscribe to and pay for a Plus Account, we will consider you a "Paying Member." Please note that all Plus Account subscriptions are billed annually at the commencement of the service. Photobucket may also offer a monthly billing option for its Plus Accounts (see terms and restrictions, below).
Available Plus Account Plans : Photobucket offers the following

Plus Account Plans:
o Plus 50 Plan: 52 GB of Storage for $59.99 / Year. The Plus 50 Plan does not allow any image linking or 3rd party image hosting.

o Plus 100 Plan: 102 GB of Storage for $99.99 / Year. The Plus 100 Plan allows for unlimited image linking but does not allow 3rd party image hosting.

o Plus 500 Plan: 500 GB of Storage and unlimited bandwidth for $399.99 / Year. The Plus 500 Plan allows for unlimited image linking and unlimited 3rd party image hosting.



Read more: http://photobucket.com/terms#ixzz4lToBd146

It really chapped me when AutoCad retired their perpetual license & went to a month by month or year by year rate. As usual it is all about the Benjamins.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So are we done w/ Photobucket? Opinions?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I suggest posting with JPGBOX. That way the pictures always are available. With Photobucket, the pictures disappear when they are deleted from a user's account. That's the problems with viewing posted pictures from older threads, often the pictures are no longer viewable.

Regards
Ken

Above is what I see on all my images. But if someone else quoted or copied & pasted it I wonder if I could view it?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Wow, this photobucket thing is a real problem. I just recently upgraded to an ad-free account but that looks like it won't be good enough.

Canvas-Back:

Do you see my images? I still see yours & others. But to switch would just have be equivalent to a reserve chute as I have so, so many images there. I guess the 2 options are reference to photobucket account or hopefully there will be backlash & they'll provide a lesser option than the $399 U.S. of A. / year. It might not be worth a 10th of that for me? Let me know what y'all intend to do.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Images previously posted by Canvas-Back. All which I can view perfectly.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Canvasback,

Haven't you recently acquired a Diamond Grade? A full set of pictures on this thread would be a welcome addition.

Regards
Ken

After a quick review, I believe our current calculus is based on Nr. 796 being made in 1872, so a back-extrapolation of 18 guns per Mo. would put Nr. 275 into the 1869-1870 range of the first Lindner number sequence. If true, an interesting implication on the early Scott numbered guns.

Regards
Ken

Hum, wonder if it was gifted later after production or was just on the store shelves?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Now, if we only had an example of the engraving that SD&G used on the escutcheons when they were bought new, to compare the styles.

What is your opinion on 275's metal? Plated, or not?

I'm betting the gun was not new when gifted, possibly after having been "Spruced Up".

Regards
Ken

To me, it looks like a Belgian Gesteck that was finished in Suhl to complete an order? But the frame does have all the hallmarks of being forged in Suhl.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The aspect that really interests me is on the pic of the bottom short rib, with the number 635 right on it. It's a coloring line, with the inside near the rib and short rib itself appearing blacker, yet the balance of the tubes appearing brown. This shouts to me a touch-up job, in an attempt to improve the tube set's appearance. I think it was done quite a while ago, possibly before it was sold to be gifted.

Regards
Ken

Ken/Raimey

First, as far as I can tell, my pics, hosted by Photobucket, are still showing up. It was just this week I upgraded to the cheapest "pay" account, the no-ad version. $2.49 a month.

On my gun forum up here in Canada, its a big topic of conversation with most being completely unwilling to upgrade to any level beyond the no ad version. A lot of good photos will be lost.

Raimey, I can see the pics you just posted that I orginally posted. But all other phhotos from you seem to be gone. And to be clear, that hammer Daly is not the Daly I bought last year. I was posting the hammer gun on behalf of someone else.

Ken, CJO has possession of the Diamond Grade Lindner I acquired last fall. It had a few problems (barrel dent, broken ejector rod) that needed fixing and Claudio will be doing a little restorative work as well. When it comes back, I'll post some photos.

I've been pondering this paragraph. Would it be possible that Westly Richards still has the APUN records? Could it be possible to trace from W.R. through Francotte to Lindner? (or to SD&G). Why hasn't this been done already?

There ya'go Raimey, what great info for the definitive Lindner-Daly book!

Regards
Ken

Mr. Hallquist has or had some of the A & D Body Action APUNs.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I wonder if Dig stumbled across said Richards A&D Body Action Apuns when he was researching his boxlock text?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I guess it is the plating that makes it appear price-point. I'm curious if that was performed early on or much later in its life?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It looks like the plating is flaking off in some spots, I'm betting it was applied quite some time ago. That, and the application of solution over original tube coating makes me think it was possibly done before gifting. Too bad they didn't properly recolor the action. It kind'a makes it a turn of the century equivalent of a "Pimp Gun"...fitting the description of "Tarted Up"...

If our dating is right, it had around a decade of use before it was altered.


Regards
Ken

Just a speculation, but this may have been a gift from father to son, with a little "touch up" work done on the gun first in attempt to improve it's appearance. If only they could talk...

Regards
Ken

Possibly. But I still wonder if the Lindner-Daly example languished on the shelves for a time? That Daly ledger would be the Rosetta Stone?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I would think that not all Daly guns were special order. Most must have been stock guns, matching their catalog descriptions. Old records of stockholder meetings from Baker Gun and Forging Co. show almost a year's production of finished guns in inventory. They say Paragon and higher grades are finished to order.

I happened to run accross today a repro of a Montgomery Wards catalog, circa 1905 that had several Dalys listed.

It's the plating that kind'a bothers me, regarding the thought process that would result in it happening. To me, it's a major detractor.

I concur that the most of the modells were made in mass and were not bespoken, but knowing the time differential between production and arrival to the Daly Emporium would be most beneficial.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here's a very early Lindner on GB. It has the Scott numbers and has PB marks as well, same as a few we've discussed.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/663597506

Regarding the nickel plated gun with the gift date. It is not uncommon to find guns in the northeast used for waterfowl, especially on salt water to be plated. I would think the plated gun was a special order gun, delivered around the date of the gift. I have a fine plated Joseph Tonks double , probably from around the same period.

I have Lindner Daly no. 604 - I have always assumed that this gun was from the mid to late 1890s? It has Purdey double under lugs and a square cross bolt third fastener. I don't think it's from the 1870s.

C Man,

Your gun (#604) is from the second series of Lindner serial numbers. #796 referred to in the previous post was from the first series. The current theory is that Lindner restarted the serial numbers after the Anson and Deeley patent protection period ran out at around 1889/90. #459 of the second series is the earliest use of the HAL mark, so, just to take a stab at it, Your gun was made circa 1891/2.

Regards
Ken

OK, Ken. Thanks!

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...art=all&q=1

"In terms of Builders gun, assuming it is a hammerless, it would be REALLY unusual to have the crown over crossed pistol mark. Again, the last use of that mark I have recorded was in the 300/400 range. I’d love to see a photo to make sure it is not, for example, an old stock barrel on a newer gun. The Lindner barrel numbering would need to be consistent."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post510205

I have very credible data that narrows the Lindner Quality Control Stamp(LQCS) change to a serial number near/ @ / circa Nr. 450. Just a cursory data acquisition for now w/ additional info to come to light in due time w/ a direction for data mining.

My question to the Charles Daly Prussia aficionados on examples that wear the Lindner Quality Control Stamp would be: In early 1893 & considering the new German proof laws, how long would it take for H.A. Lindner to procure a new stamp & what variations might we see during this transition period? Like a counselor worth his salt, I fancy asking questions to which I may already have the answer?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

So no takers, huh. Better phrased: I would hazard a guess that the 1st Charles Daly - H.A. Lindner sourced double wearing the Lindner Quality Control Stamp of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by HAL will be found near the 2nd series serial Nr. 450.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just to recap, the McKinley Tariff became effective on Oktober 1st, 1890 and the Country of Origin on foreign goods imported into the U.S. of A. per the following:

"That on and after the first day of March, eighteen hundred and ninety-one, all articles of foreign manufacture, such as are usually or ordinarily marked, stamped, branded or labelled, and all packages containing such or other imported articles, shall, respectively, be plainly marked, stamped, branded, or labeled in legible English words, so as to indicate the country of their origin; and unless so marked, stamped or branded, or labeled they shall not be admitted to entry."

Lindner's wares from March 1891 foward, and more than likely that of Suhl, wore several different terms for location including Saxony, Thuringia and possibly another before they found their identity when they settled on Prussia.

On May 19th, 1892, Germany saw the Reichstag pass the new German Proof law, which was made public on June 22nd, 1892. It became effective on April 1st, 1893 and this is the reason we see the Vorrat / onhand stamp of a V surmounted by a Crown. Since Lindner's Quality Control Stamp was that of a brace of Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown, he was forced to change. This change looks to be @ the cusp of the new proof law and maybe he as just like us, a procrastinator up till the end and waited till he was obligated to do so? Anyway, the change of the Lindner Quality Control Stamp to HAL surmounted by a Crown was either in early 1893 or in April 1893 very close to Nr. 450(2nd Lindner Series), which may have a higher probability. What happens in between or betwixt the transition is the focus of the current data mining effort.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, not sure what this means.

Unfortunately it does not appear that the shift from the crown over crossed pistol mark to the HAL over crossed pistol mark was a clean one.

I noted in the database HAL marked hammerless Daly SxSs as early as serial number 245 (Daryl's Daly above which contains both the HAL notation and the traditional crown over crossed pistols.) . Others serial numbers noted with the HAL mark include 264, 270, 272, 299, 439, 458, 515). Crown marked hammerless guns include serial numbers 322, 3XX, and 597 (the highest crown marked gun in the second series recorded.) So quite a bit of overlap for a couple of years.

In addition to the way the guns were marked, the hammerless design changed considerably during this same period. Notably, the barrel lumps protruded through the bottom of the action, and the dollshead was replaced with a crossbolt in the higher numbered models. Jon S. may be able to provide additional detail here.

Ken

Thanks Georgi & Mr. Hallquist.

Georgi:

Can you tell us what Modells the Crown over Crossed Sidearms were for Nrs 322, 3xx & 597? And the same for 264, 270, 272 & 299 for the HAL? I'm really focused on the Nrs. 439 - 458 wearing Crown over HAL. Or maybe if any of those Modells were or were not "Diamond Quality"?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here's what I'd hazard a guess on the 264, 270, 272, 299, etc. would be that they were devoid of an Lindner Quality Control Stamp for whatever reason, in production, got hungup @ the engraver, etc. & that the Lindner Quality Control Stamp of a Crown over HAL were applied in April 1893 or later.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It took me a bit, but I finally remembered that I had two Prussian Dalys in the serial number range we are discussing down in the safe.

#347 is a Daly diamond quality model 250. It has the crown over crossed pistols.

#481 is a Daly Featherweight two-barrel set (in 20 gauge!!). It is marked with the HAL of crossed pistols.

I am with you Raimey on the hypothesis that the overlapping HAL/crown marks are likely due to the vagaries of production timelines. Unfortunately only one of the HAL guns in question (Daryls) has the model noted. When the Daly database was first started by Michael Petrov, many of the early entries only noted the serial number and maybe a few other details. Over time, additional fields were added to the database.

#270 though is noted as a "lower grade gun" and possessing the HAL. The others - 272, 299 - do not have a model provided.

On the crown-marked guns, only the 3XX gun has any details. It is noted as a "mid-grade gun."

Ken

Mr. Hallquist:

Not sure why the HAL 378 is restamped or exactly what the number might be. But the Lindner Quality Control Stamp was applied prior to that so I'm curious when exactly in the process that H.A. Lindner applied the Lindner Quality Control Stamp. It is possible that the example could be in the muddy Crown over Crossed Sidearms to Crown over HAL transition but it lacks the Crown over V stamp for the April 1893 stamping effort. What might be the bore of the Diamond Daly? Is there another Lindner tubeset number further up on the tubes?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I would say that having knowledge of all the H.A. Lindner offerings that wear the on-hand / Vorrat stamp of Crown over V may provide some a solid basis.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse