I'm thinking about sellin a few guns and upgrading to a better double. I'm wanting a dove clay gun. Recommendations please. I'll probably have $1000-$ 1500. I have an L. C. Smith I'm gonna list here.

I bought a Beretta Black Onyx 20ga O/U and had Cole's install a double trigger in place of the single. Your budget would cover it. Mine made a nice dove gun and improved my clays score...Geo

If you are set on a classic, a move from an LC into any of the other big five would probably be lateral rather than an upgrade. You might improve the configuration to better fit your needs though...Geo

Look for a nice condition Webley & Scott 700. Certainly a classic. They were made after the war up until the 1970's and are about as bullet proof as any gun ever made. it will probably have 2 3/4" chambers and be proofed for 1 1/4 oz. One with a fair amount of wear should be priced in your range.

If your looking for a SXS maybe something like this: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100784805 These later guns have good dimensions for shooting. If not this one perhaps it gives you some direction? Best of luck.

these guys have some decent looking ,modestly priced Guns ,now and again English bls & others
cheers
francHill Rod n Gun

I'd keep my L. C. but it isn't much of a bird gun with 30" bbl. full & mod. Also, the front trigger runs the left barrel which is full. I'm not sure why someone would want that set up.

I love shooting my St. Etienne. It's light and swings like a prom queen. Problem is the bores are badly pitted but it patterns great, go figure. It never looks clean inside no matter how many times I scrub it. Maybe if I had it retubed. I'd wanna use my rib and flats cause everything is engraved. I could have the bores honed but I think that would take it outta proof.

This is the most complicated "what should I buy" thread I have ever read. Exactly what are you looking for?

$1,000 to $1500 should buy you a pretty decent Parker Trojan or Fox Sterlingworth. If you are talking 12g and American guns. If you want a lighter weight gun, a Lefever is a good choice and a very nice DS or I grade can be had in that price range.

I hear you, I bought a late season dove gun this past summer. Found a Garbi 101 , a heavy 12 bore with 29 1/2" barrels. I went the extra mile and had Briley tube it and a leather pad installed. My idea was for shooting heavy loads at those late season winter doves. Just one BIG problem. No doves here in central N.C. now.

Sorry 'ole boy. I'm just reaching for opinions. Are the Sterlingworths light guns. They sure are purty.

Somebody messed with your Smith--the front trigger blade on double triggered shotgun, whether sidelock or boxlock, should always fire the right barrel, and the rear trigger blade the left barrel.

As I have a deep fondness for LC Smiths, especially the pre- 1913 graded Smiths, I'd consider keeping, send it to Master Smith Gunsmith Buck Hamlin in Peavely MO-- have him open the chokes a bit, and get the trigger set-up un-fubared" and shoot it until it becomes as much as part of you as possible.

I'd also have Buck glas-bed the stock in the locks and tangs areas, and as I do with my 5 Smiths- shoot lighter loads, which kill just as well as the big boomers, and are easier on your: gun, shoulder and wallet. RWTF

Maybe a Model 21 for $500 on E-Bay? Who knew??

Driven birds, or incomers for us Americans. You shoot the tight barrel first at the maximum incoming distance, then use the more open choke for the next, closer in, shot. That is my favorite way of doubling on doves. But, none of my doubles are set up that way and I have no trouble at all pulling the back trigger first then going to the front.

SRH

Not sure what you mean by "heavy loads" for doves, Mike. But, I shoot late season doves regularly and, to me a heavy load for a late season dove is 1 oz. Choked properly, a one ounce load of 7 1/2s will kill a dove as far as 98% of us can hit him ...... 70+ yards. Put a LM in one barrel and a IM in the other and you are ready for all comers, late season. Hope you have some late doves to try the Garbi on.

SRH

Pretty light. 16's are usually 6 1/2 pounds, some a bit less, some a bit more. Pretty nice guns, made in U.S.A. For a dove, clays gun, you probably want a 12 gauge. They are heavier, but still pretty svelt, I think.

Stan, last year I hunted a farm nearby that had pigeons mixed in with the doves. So I pocketed a few #6. The doves were thick as flys at the dump.
Me and my Bud would pick long shots to break up the action.
Shooting over decoys usually with a combination of a few on a pole and some set up floaters and mojos along with a scattering of decoys spread out on the ground.
My friend is a Pigeon Shooter so he usually likes to show off on some long shots,
Winter doves here can be fairly bigger with more feathers so a heavy 7 1/2 with max load helps get the job done. Plus you don't have to worry about the occasional pigeon.
We had doves here late August before the season, damn hurricane run them off. So far only a few here and there and no big concentration.
Alot of farmers have cut their fields but very few doves.
Do doves like soybeans?

Doves seem to like soybeans when a snow comes, Mike. That's the only time I have ever seen them in 'beans here in numbers ...... and it don't snow here very often!!

My buds shoot 1 1/8 oz. loads out of 12 gauges at doves all seasons, from the Sept. opener 'til it closes the next year. I just don't find that necessary, and kill as many or more as they do. But, again, I find it important to tighten the choke as you lighten the payload. Density is what kills ..... and you can get the same density with a lighter payload by tightening the choke.

Hope the birds cover you up soon! SRH

If it is a typical French gun, you would have a bunch of money into it, and it wouldn't necessarily pattern any better, or be worth any moe money. I've seen bores like gas pipes throw spectacular patterns. I don't know why, but, some do.
I'd suggest you leave it be.

I guess a "classic" to me is something I shoot well, and that is simply very reliable, needing little consideration to how or with what ammunition it is used. A lot of the German, Japanese, French and English guns fall into that area with me, but, the English guns are more expensive considering what you actually get.

I can't warm up to any American guns as "classics". If you get enough alcohol in some of the better gunsmiths, they will confess to making way more money on those guns than continental or English guns.

A lot of the really good gunsmiths won't even touch American double guns anymore.

That should tell you something.

I wish you the very best of luck, and, take a minute to show us what you end up with.

Best,
Ted

Thick as "flys"-- maybe "flies"? I am a pass shooter for barn pigeons- no doves though in MI-the PETA azzholers shot down our chances for a legal dove season- I like 30" and 32" tight chokes in my side-by-side 12 gauges for "airborne shit-birds"- like T. N. Buckingham said so well in his story "The Dove"-- and I quote: "You've had about all the thrills possible when you blot out an almost overhead fifty-yard dove-- and see your bird, well patterned, crumple"-- A bit of Nash espousing the Limey driven bird mantra of "Bum, Belly, Beak, Bang"-- works for me!!

I think the the triggers can be switched. Knew a south paw who claimed that he did it regularly. They may be that way because they were switched, intentionally or otherwise.

My first Lefever, a 12ga G Grade had been modified by reversing the triggers as well as bending the buttstock to a left hand cast. SKB (Steve Bertram) corrected the problem. No longer the "leftie lefever"!...Geo

Something like this?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/602235657

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/603458578

I've seen some great deal on these German guns. Its painfully obvious to even the most casual double gun enthusiast that these people do not know what they are selling.

You guys have me reconsidering it all now. I didn't know you could switch the triggers. My LC shoots good and I do like it. I was thinking it was built that way. I could switch the triggers and have the head glassbeded. The only other issue is the screw that mates the two locks together. The threads in the side plate have been stripped so the screw won't tighten up. ( previous owner ). I shoot it anyhow. I load a 1oz. @ 7000 psi. so I don't beat up guns. I shoot the same load outta my Frenchie. What would the cost be to fix my LC.

Give me your e-mail nd I'll get with you. Assuming you have an R framed gun (one machine screw at the rear of the lockplates, the left barrel counter-bored so the head sits flush, I will send you one w/o boogered threads, all I ask is two things: (1) You keep that fine Smith and send it to my pal Buck Hamlin in MO-I'll give you his address and phone number, as Buck does NOT travel on this Al Gore invented internet highway- and (2) you reimburse me just the shipping cost to get you this essential part- Two caveats here- as you may be new to L.C. Smiths-(1) do not fire your gun with that stripped machine screw in place, the locks and plates must be locked into exact position to function and re-cock properly- and also, in case you are not aware, do not remove the forearm and barrels on your gun from the receiver unless the hammers are cocked back. As Smiths didn't have cocking indicators like some LeFevers and first series Ithaca NID's== just remove the forearm and see if the cocking cranks that extend from the front of the receiver "nose" wiggle- if they do, the hammers are cocked--RWTF--e-mail me directly at dsmorin@hotmail.com--

Email on the way

I'd like to know exactly who those good gunsmiths are that won't touch American guns .............. so we won't be wasting each other's time. Names?

SRH

+ 1 for what Stan said.

I am reasonably happy with my current crop of doubles and haven't owned an American "classic" double for some time now. I did, however, hunt some pheasants the other day with an older friend and his classic American 16 and...... I must admit, I could be tempted again. The gun was a Damascus E-grade Lefever with seemingly D-grade engraving. The weight, balance, fit & finish, checkering and wood on this gun was and is spectacular. It has been dated by Buck Hamlin to be a post-Syracuse gun that was likely assembled by the folks at Ithaca out of Syracuse-sourced parts, but it is nothing like any Ithaca Lefever I've ever seen.

Stan,
Call Dewey Vicknair, Abe Chaber or Paul Hodgins, and tell them your Elsie needs work.

Let us know how it goes for you.

Dewey actually told you exactly how he felt about LC Smiths, right here, but, you seem to have forgotten:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post424610


Best,
Ted

There's a whole lot of difference between one brand of American double, and what you said.

"A lot of the really good gunsmiths won't even touch American double guns anymore".

I've forgotten nothing about what he said, nor what you recently said above. Are you saying now that they only won't touch Smiths, or do you mean all American double guns? Last time I checked there were a whole lot more makes of American doubles than just L C Smiths. Dewey regularly does work on Foxes, and has had one of mine in his shop. You gonna tell me that Dewey, Abe and Paul won't touch any American doubles, or is it now just Smiths?

SRH

British, Continental or American. It doesn't really matter which. Buy the gun, not the name (or country of origin).

Ah, we are going to split some hairs today, eh Stan? Ok.

Let's say, hypotheticlly, your truck gun needed a restock, Stan.

Are you going to send it to Dewey? How 'bout rebarreling the same gun? You going to send it to Dewey?

Why not?

Now, simply pencil in the name of most American doubles where I wrote truck gun. Get them all, like Stevens, Savage, Cresent, Tobin, Fultons, Winchester 24s, all of them.

It would take a pretty special example of most of them, to be worth hiring the likes of Dewey, or, the others, Stan. Most American doubles were low cost implements, and not worth putting talent like that into.

You get that, right Stan?

Most, Stan. That isn't to say that I believe that the tarted up versions of the same American impliments are better than the field grades. I don't. But, the good 'smiths can afford to spend their time chroming those turds, should they choose to, and the check clears. And at the end of the day, I think the case could be made that there wasn't an American gun that could compare to the likes of a typical English or continental built A&D boxlock, although a couple got close, the H&R version of the same, and the Remington 1894 coming to mind.


The talented guys do have better things to do, Stan. Some of them will actually tell you that. They tend toward honesty.

Best,
Ted

No argument with most of that, and we're not wanting to split hairs ....... just be accurate in our statements. Next time maybe you should specify brands instead of making such sweeping blanket statements. If you mean Smith and Stevens, and not all American doubles.

However, given your tendency to disparage American made guns in general, I understand that it will be tough for you.

Carry on, SRH

Stan,
I've never disparaged the following American guns:
Ljutic.
Kolar.
CSMC A10.
For that matter, CSMC RBL.
Remington 32.

Know why?

They aren't crap.

Sweeping blanket statements are one thing, but, crap is crap.

Glad I could help.

Best,
Ted

Okay. My bad, vintage American doubles. My experience with A10s and RBLs are admittedly a small sample, but they are both batting very low in "out the door quality control". Never owned either, but shooting with guys who do, I've seen way too many problems with new guns, owned by the initial buyers.

SRH

Small sample for me too. Have seen a single problem out of 6-8 guns, expeditiously handled by the factory, by the way.
I'm not buying, just haven't seen enough bad to get a sour taste as of now. I'm open to possibilities.

So, Remington 32s aren't vintage? A lot of guys have been shooting those guns at my club for as long as I've been alive and they seem to be the Timex of club guns.
Really.

Vintage? Ithacas are good, once you get to 2 3/4" spec guns. I know a lot of guys consider them less than asthetically pleasing, but, I can't look at the gun when I'm shooting a bird, try as I might, so, I don't care how they look, just how they fit.
Hey, a lot of guys probably don't like the music I listen to, either. I'm OK with that.
NIDs are a sound design, well put together, by a factory that cared, as is the Nitro.
Few issues. That is what I like the best in an old gun, not styling.

George Hoenig is right on about a lot of things when it comes to what works and what really doesn't on guns. If every guy who came here wondering how much money they should throw at their American classic would take the time to read what Dewey said about a few of them, there would likely be fewer times when the term "money pit' was seen posted here.
I get queasy when I see some of the answers to guestions that obvious newbies ask here about Grampa's old gun.


Best,
Ted

Ted, the hardware store guns you mentioned are hardly considered by any American double gun enthusiast like most here as classic American doubles. But Parkers, Foxes, L. C. Smiths, and NID Ithacas are. Nobody really expects someone like Dewey Vicknair and his talents to make a Crescent into a Churchill, and holds no animas towards him as a result.

Most all who dabble in this pastime know the shortcomings of the Elsie or Old Reliable, but the fine examples that need some care would probably not be refused out of hand by Dewey or any other great gunsmith at his level just because, the curmudgeons of the trade being the exceptions.
JR

I just look at the poorly finished guts on my Ithaca, my buddy's Fox, another friend's Lefever 'automatic hammerless' and compare that image to some of the pics of high grade English, French, Italian and German made guns that people share on this board and just shake my head.

Well made roughed out tools? Definitely

Classics? Not so much.

They work, they shoot. That's good enough for me, I guess.

My sample is one A10 ........ two breakdowns. Four RBLs, three of them had single trigger problems, the other was ordered bespoke and when received was nowhere near what was specified. If they can't design a good single trigger of their own perhaps they should just copy a BSS trigger, or an SKB, or hell, a YILDIZ!! I have untold rounds through a single trigger Yildiz Elegante 4, with not a single issue.

OTOH, I own five Foxes, one HOT Elsie and one Stevens 330. The only one that has ever given me a problem that I couldn't handle myself, that had to go to the 'smith, is the Elsie. The wood began to crack behind the lock plates just recently, and is being repaired and glass bedded at John Garvin's. It was a restock, not the original wood, and was inletted a bit too tight behind the lock plates for the small amount of recoil bearing area that is in the head ...... a definite weakness with the Elsies. All other minor issues have been handled by me. Actually, over the years of shotgunning, I have had modern made guns in the shop much more than my vintage American doubles ...... MUCH more.

SRH

Stan,
Let me remind you, that you said Dewey had worked on one of your Foxes. I will assume it gave you problems that you couldn't handle.

In addition to the Elsie.

None of my modern guns, which, are pretty much pumps and autoloaders built since 1930, has ever been to a gunsmith. I broke a tang screw on a Browning A5, fixed with a replacement from Brownell's, and have installed quite a few lefty safety buttons in the same guns, along with stripping and cleaning them. My Dad's Beretta O/U broke a firing pin, which was repaired at Ahlman's while my Dad watched, and he bought two pins, just in case. I still have it. I glassbedded the head of a Remington model 17 stock, but, it was precautionary, there was nothing wrong with it.

I've never needed the services of a gunsmith to repair a Darne I owned. I've owned examples from every era, but, all right now are post war, 2 3/4" guns. Modern. I've done some elective stuff, but, none of mine, probably 20-25 guns over thirty years, ever broke. I can service quite a bit an a Darne R model on my own. People have sent a few dozen to me over the years, every example suffered butchery at the hands of someone who got in over his head with wife tools. A few times I opened a box, shook my head, and forwarded a gun off to Kirk.
Small sample also.

Not too many things in my life approach the reliability of the modern guns in my world. The printing equipment I make my living with sure as hell doesn't.

John, you, Sir, have just posted what has to be one of the best quotes of all time on the board. "The shortcomings of Old Reliable", if, I may paraphrase just a bit, is, itself, a classic. If Orwell had written about shotguns, we'd have seen it there, I'm sure. Probably in a story about a "American Doublegun Ministry of Truth" where people were beaten until they recanted, after they pointed out the dearly held American shotgun classics WERE just hardware store guns. After that, they would be forced to hunt with Saigas, which, were very ugly, but, always worked, so the joke was on the leaders.

Thanks, by the way. I laughed, hard, when I read that. I hope you can see why I thought it was funny, and can laugh at it, too.

Stan, the CSMC RBL gun I saw with an issue had a trigger problem, but it was a double trigger, where one or the other broke at a crisp 3 1/2lbs, and the other broke at about 15lbs. They fixed it, quickly.
Small sample there, too.

I've seen a lot of broken Parkers and Elsies at gunshows. You guys have to at least admit there are much better guns to count on for actual use. If a guy knows what he has going into the salvage of an example of either of those two designs, that is one thing, but, a rookie (I think I saw two of them here this week, looking for advice) ought to hear the rest of the story.

Best,
Ted

No, Ted I did not say that I had Dewey work in one of my Foxes. You read something into it that wasn't there, again. But, you're good at that. I said "he has had one of mine in his shop". It was there for an evaluation to determine if I could have him refit a set of new, old stock 32" that had been shoddily "fitted" by another well known shop. We discussed it and decided it wasn't worth the effort. That does not qualify as a repair, does it? Nothing was broken. I was just attempting to mate an orphaned receiver to a set of barrels.

Is is just another example of your narrow mindedness ....... not being able to see possibilities other than your own myopic view. I'm done with this discussion, but I enjoyed it. Thank you.

SRH

While I have never taken parts off double other than simple breakdowns into three pieces the NID I examined was pretty well finished even in places not seen when the gun is fully assembled. I do like poor finish on Spanish, Belgian,..... clunkers because I can quickly tell quality from junk.

Interesting discussion. Coming late to the party, I'd toss in a few tidbits:

American doubles, in general, were built more like tools designed for hard use than were most British doubles. But Americans and Brits also adopted different approaches to maintaining their guns. Americans shot their guns until something broke. Then back to the factory, or to the local gunsmith. Brits, after the season was over, would send their pair of whatevers back to the maker for whatever attention they needed. Even if they were in perfect working order. Preventive maintenance . . . sort of like visiting your dentist a couple times a year vs waiting until you have a toothache. Drives American collectors nuts, because American collectors want "original". Well, if a Brit double needed reblacking, it got reblacked . . . so no longer original. Just a different approach. Speaking here of the real classics, not the hardware store guns on this side of the Atlantic, nor the "keeper's gun" on the other side.

Re American originals: Ted, surely you're not forgetting that the Remington 32 is essentially a copy of a French OU: the Petrik. Not nearly as popular as your Darnes. But then that particular design is still alive and well today in the Krieghoff OU's. And for a gun that came along late, in terms of American classics--it was really the last of them--the 32 didn't sell very well. But then OU's weren't all that popular when the 32 came out either.

The problem with a lot of American classics, especially the entry level ones--Sterlingworths, Trojans, Ithaca and Elsie Field Grades--is that they may have been attended to by the village idiot rather than a real gunsmith who knows what he's doing.

IMO, the best buys in the used gun market--in terms of guns that will sustain a lot of use (take a licking and keep on ticking)--fall into what I'd call the "older but not vintage" category. Ithaca SKB, Browning BSS, Miroku-made Charles Daly, and the Italian "B" guns (Beretta and Bernardelli). Hard to go wrong unless you get your hands on one that's really beat up. There's nothing on the market today--again, IMO--that matches what you get in an Ithaca SKB Model 100 for the money you'll pay. You do need to live with a single trigger (but a very reliable one) and extractors. But those guns now have half a century of use behind them, and they've stood the test of time. And when it comes to modern ammo, they'll eat pretty much anything you feed them.

I note that the Remington 32 has popped up in discussion by several posters. I posted this photo of Billy's M32 last January in the Favorite Game/Gun thread. The gun was purchased new by his granddad during the Depression. He had Simmons fit skeet barrels in .410, 28, 20 and 12. The gun was passed on to Billy's dad who in turn passed it on to Billy. Billy's son, now 25, will eventually become steward, and perhaps Billy's grandson will receive it. The photo was taken the last day of Georgia's woodcock season this past January. It has the 20 gauge barrel on it. It's a heckuva gun with a remarkable legacy.

Many years ago Remington 32 was one of the best deals going until the "Parker Bros. crowd" learned how few were actually made. That is when the deals went away and the guns disappeared. Good news is one can still get certain Savage marked O/U for very little money. The Parker Boys will not take a Savage unless it is the 1899 with some scroll, but that O/U Savage made in Northern Europe is possibly the best bang for the buck in the used O/U market.

I think my points were that a guy with Dewey's level of talent had better things to do than work on the typical, American classic. And, that a gunsmith at that level would likely be honest enough to tell you that.

Although you implied he had worked on a Fox, the truth was he helped you determine it wasn't worth it.

I think you have just illustrated my point better than I did, Stan.

Thank You.

Best,
Ted

Sounds like you need BL or BLE from Birmingham England. Likely choices would be: Webley Scott, G.E.Lewis (of machine gun fame), BSA and "Demon works" (sorry do not remember official name of company). I would look for something with original 2&3/4" chambers and proof of 3&1/4 tons per square inch or more. Might have to stretch that budget by $500 or little more, but you did say you wanted an upgrade.

Larry,
RE your comment that American doubles were, generally, built for hard use. Some, really weren't. A gun with the amount of wood between the action and head of the stock (little) and corrosive solder/flux used to knit the barrels together, not to mention the lack of support for the toplever spindle and other Rube Goldbergian screwups that an LC Smith is a showcase of, is not intended for hard use. The "Old Reliable" is a complicated mess inside, and has a perfectly designed splitting maul for an action, riding on the head of the stock. Yes, the village idiot has seen some, but, the really good gunsmiths have often seen the light.
The very expensive English guns, purchased by the well to do, did get the service you spoke of (they were unbelievably expensive, even then) but, for every one of them were half a dozen game keepers guns or lesser boxlocks that didn't, and many, many, of them seem to have survived, and keep right on chugging.
There is much to frustrate Murphy's law on an A&D pattern boxlock, constructed in England. I believe that the reason we have those wonderful best buy guns you refer to is that the companies that produced them, in Italy, Japan, or wherever decided to copy and improve where they could the typical Anson & Deeley, and NOT something like the Elsie.
The Petric is still alive in the form of the Petric, by the way Larry. They have been produced in St. Etienne for about a decade, now. Nice gun. Expensive gun. Nobody here knows about them.

Best,
Ted

Let me know the details and gauge, grade of the Smith you want to possibly sell, pls- Oh Master of the Hunt--I love Elsies- never had a problem with any of mine, but I super-fussy about the ones I do buy- and of course, 12 gauge only- thanks- RWTF

Yes indeed- but at 8.5 lbs., a tad hefty for a woodcock/grouse gun perhaps??

You missed your calling, Ted. You should have been a propaganda minister, somewhere. Probably here.
JR

My FE grade Lefever has been my go to gun for the past 48 yrs. Has never failed me in this time. When I first bought it I was not at that point willing to shoot damascus so had a new set of barrels made for it in Italy of Bohler steel. They are choked .012" & .024". Still have the original bbls for it, did not sacrifice them for parts for the new ones.By varying the loads from light 1oz loads up to the 3 3/4-1¼ loads I have killed quail, a few woodcock, rabbits, squirells, some ducks & a couple of turkeys with it.
Personally I am rather proud of the part American gunmakers played & the guns they put in the hands of ordinary people. Even my lowly H grade Lefevers all perform great & they are all obviously (Except one Ithaca assembled one) at least 100 yrs old. Have not seen any A&D actioned gun of like price range I would trade a one of these for.

Jag'
I think Demonworks was Midland gun Co
Some of there best stuff, though rare , is pretty damn fine
franc

I believe that the top lever spindle on the L.C. Smith hammerless guns is supported by the counterbored hole in the trigger plate- I will grant you that re-assemblying a Smith requires some know-how as to getting this in proper alignment and then placing the retaining machine screw in battery- but a Smith action being "complicated"-- not much more than a Parker- but less than a AH Fox or Ithaca NID, I believe.

Dang man, I'm glad I started this topic. I'm gaining more info than I bargained for.

Colonel Isaac Newton Lewis of the U.S. Army & Samuel McLean designed the Lewis gun. GE Lewis had nothing to do with it.

I have a very nice Ithaca NID I may part with. Recently refinished stock with recut checkering. New starburst recoil pad. Cocking indicators, 28" mirror barrels and toward the lower end of your cost. Let me know if you might be interested.

And the grade is--?

Just a field grade. Sorry.

Yes, they made few top of the line SLEs that could compete with best in London trade. I read that years ago in one of the English firearm magazines. Can't remember if it was in The Field, Shooting Gazette or Sporting Gun.

Thank you. During World War I Birmingham Small Arms factory made well over 100,000 of them for armies of Great Britain, Belgium and Russia. It was replaced later by the Bren gun in the British military.

Ted, I'd suggest that no one copied the Elsie because sidelocks are more expensive than boxlocks. Others here can comment, but I think the reason American makers didn't use the A&D design for their boxlocks is that it was still patent-protected when the Parkers, Ithacas, Foxes etc were being produced. As for the Parker, it is overly complicated. But it also tends to WORK. The late Mr. McIntosh pointed out that both the Parker and the Browning Superposed were complicated, and had to be fitted well to work--but most of them were, and did. If the Parker had all kinds of problems, wouldn't we hear about those issues with Parker Reproductions? Just about the only problems I've heard of have been with the single trigger--and mostly the only fix required is a good cleaning. And Marlin brought back the Elsie in the late 60's. They didn't sell particularly well, but then they made the mistake (IMO) of making those modern Elsies in 12ga only. Back in those days, just too darned many Elsie 12's floating around on the used market, pretty cheap back then, for a new 12ga to make sense. Had they brought it out in 20ga, I think they might have had a winner. Just as it made sense for Tony Galazan to make his Foxes as smallbores. And Steve Lamboy, at Ithaca Classic Doubles. And the Parker Repros that bring bigger bucks are the 28ga guns--even though about twice as many of them were made as 12's.

No question it's a good idea to copy the A&D if you're making a boxlock. Greener did, even though he also made his own Facile Princeps model boxlocks. It's a time-tested design. Same with the H&H pattern sidelock. Those are the designs the Spanish chose to copy. On the other hand, while there are "lesser" Brit guns out there, those "lesser" guns weren't put to the same kind of use--in terms of the number of shells put through them--as were the guns used for driven shooting over there, nor the guns used for competition shooting over here. And there were plenty of guys putting a whole lot of rounds through Parkers, Elsies, Foxes, Ithacas etc and winning championships at trap and skeet. And if you go into a British gunshop . . . funny thing. You won't see many of those "keepers guns" for sale, in comparison to the higher dollar doubles. More or less the opposite of the way it is here, where there are a bunch of Sterlingworths out there for every graded Fox you'll see. So maybe our cheaper guns (from the better makers) were made better than theirs??

Thanks for the info about the Petrik. Didn't know they were still making them. Interesing guns . . . if you don't mind your barrels stacked vertically. The nice thing about them--the older ones at least--is that for hunters, they tended to be light field guns rather than heavy target guns, like the 32.

Just for a historical perspective, the "Top Gun" at the traps 1895-about 1900 was a Smith, when Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters were using 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. loads. They didn't hold up, and the top shooters (Fred Gilbert, W.R. Crosby, Rolla Heikes who won with every maker's gun) mostly switched to single barrel repeaters (Winchester 1897) and Parkers, and eventually to SBTs, Remington Pump Shotguns and Model 12s
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8QkBDo-KIQYk2G8lkE-kHLUybB5NJzBahX_eFKEyuY/preview

Feb. 20, 1897 Sporting Life
Dr. Hinkins of Chicago, has an L. C. Smith gun that was formerly used by Rolla Heikes. This gun was fired 60,000 times while in the possession of Mr. Heikes and has had over 15,000 shots fired from it since that time by Dr. Hinkins. This goes to show what the L. C. Smith gun will stand, as it is still tight and strong us a new gun.

No mention about cracks in the head of the stock Interestingly, my very well used 1906 00 12g is still tight and crack free

The lock work of L.C. Smith is about as complex at that of Czechoslovak ZP series, no? Marlin made few thousand in late 60s. Percy Stanbury used lowly mass-produced Webly & Scott for five decades with no problems. This man shot a lot of cartridges through that gun. As I said lowly Birmingham made BL would be an improvement over old field grade stuff made here. I'm no Englishman or an Anglophile, but I will give credit where credit is due.

I have the same gun Stanbury shot (W&S Model 400), except mine is the highest grade (Grade 1--the Brits sometimes go the opposite way we do with their grades). While they're certainly reliable guns, I'm pretty sure Mr. Stanbury likely got pretty good service from Webley & Scott, if and when he needed it.