What are the differences between these two ( pre war) models besides weight?
Best regards,
JBP

XVII is a souped up Modell XIV & Krupp Spezial Weapons Grade Steel.

XXIX(A) is a Taubenflinten or Pigeon Gun w/ longer & beefier Modell XVIII action. C & S are not considered & more complex.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

What do " C & S" refer to? Does the XXIX also have the XVIi special steel?
Thank you!
Best regards ,
JBP

Modell XXIX(C) & Modell XXIX(S) would have Krupp's Spezial Weapons Grade Steel being also chopperlump and having upper & lower scears. Yes, XVII & XXIX(C) & XXIX(S) could all wear Krupp's Spezial Weapons Grade Steel.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

What do the "C" & " S" versions of the model XXIX refer to?

C = chopper lump ?
S = additional safety sear?

Thanks!

I'm not sure as that is above my pay grade but I'll look into it. I would hazard a guess C - Chopperlump & S - Spezial being the very best Pigeon gun one could purchase. The S may have had something like a Westley Richard's doll's head extension.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The above is purported to be an advert of the S&S Modell Nr. XXIX(C).


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

After flipping thru a S&S catalogue, it would appear that the Modell XXIX(S) may have changed. In this particular catalogue the images of the S&S Modell XXIX(S) is actually a Selbstspanner Taubenflinte(Seitenschlossen) or Sidelock Pigeon gun so the S would denote Seitenschlossen?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

This looks like it , without the dolls head rib extension (straight)( nearly 8 lbs.)
Thank you Raimey!

Hello JB,
You will find some pertinent info on this old thread
My 29 has many gold inlays....does yours?

All best

CJ

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172760&page=1

No CJ,
Mine looks just like the drawing ( except no cocking indicators) and is not a "Meisterwerk" grade.
I believe it to be a XXIX (A))- long , heavier frame, 30" barrels , 70 mm ch,
No Dolls head rib extension etc.
Any of the Meisterwerk grades are rare birds indeed~ like grade 60 Sauers,
and similar Diamond Regent Dalys.
Best regards,
JBP

Received the gun today-

Any help with meaning of "cavemen and crowns" along with any other insight as far as other proof marks and stampings would be greatly appreciated.!
Thanks in advance,
best regards
JBP

Appears to be an XXIX ejector with straight rib extension.
Upper and lower sears.
Made for US import with Son (not Sohn) on receiver and rib.
and with " Special Gun Barrel Steel "in English w/ three rings ( was this an upgrade?)
-- but with sling swivels????
nice flourishes on thumblever and cross hatching atop the receiver and on end of muzzle rib wedges.
30"barrels, 7# 14oz. 70 mm nitro proof/ nice high stock dimensions.
SN 222xxx should put man. in 1923

Very nice. Also rather significantly underbored, as a 13. Not unusual for German guns.

Caveman is just the Sauer trademark. Crowns are about proof, I think?...Geo

Any idea what the stampings on the rear lump reference?

Nice gun, J.B.

BTW, I really would like to see some more of your ducks and doubles pictures you used to post. You are still chasing them, aren't you?

Merry CHRISTmas, SRH

With the English stamps, it would appear it was destined for the American/English market and would fall either under the VL&D Modell Nr. 180(280 as 180 only had overhanging scears??) or S,D&G Modell 30 or 40 w/ Krupp's Spezial 3 Ringe Stahl. As measured, the Sauer-Daly's were 1 inch longer and have the same water-table length of 56mm as those of the Lindner-Daly A&D Body Actions, while Linder's sidelocks are purported to be 62mm. Comparable German inland boxlocks were 48mm. Being a later offering, it should be in the Sauer ledger and the answers will be found there. The Crown looks to be the smaller of 2 of the brace of crowns & I'd hazard a guess it is for Shooting Performance. The Wildmann w/ the Staff & M are Sauer process marks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you Raimey,
Did the model 180 have upper and lower sears and ejectors?
Does the length of this action correspond to the Sauer " pigeon" gun length?
How can I access the Sauer ledger that you speak of ?
I know Griffin and Howe have the V,L& D records, I will contact them.
If G&H has no record, where else can I look for info on # 222231?
Best regards,
JBP

Don't know if it applies to them all or not but my J P Sauer & Sons sidelock is plainly marked VL & D on it. This gun was from round 1901 or 02 I believe. It has the 70 marked on the extractor face, chamber length is not marked on the barrel flats.

Mine has no such mark anywhere....maybe S,D&G import?
JBP

It would seem that the Sauer ledger is akin to Bigfoot/Yeti as many have seen it but few, if any, can provide specifics. But we do know it exists & where it is kept: in the old Suhl jail basement. Sauer Nr. 222250 is given as a V,L, & D Modell Nr. 280, similar to an 8E, as described in Cate's Sauer text so I'd say yours was lumped in a ground of V,L&D and wasn't badged for some reason? It still could easily be a S,D&G variety also. I really haven't any idea on the V,L&D modells.

Again w/ the stamps in English, me thinks a pigeon version is really a red herring. 1st Lindner developed the 56mm frame & when the A&D Body Action protection period expired, then Sauer adopted the platform and who better than Lindner to lend quality control?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Forgot to note also that either on the flats or the water-table is the stamp "Made In Germany". So for sure for export & not an inland.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
If you had to make a call- would you say this gun is an XXIX ( in Sauer terminology) that was exported to the US and "labeled" whatever model designation by the importer as per their listed catalogue at the time ( 1923/24), or just a stouter optioned XVII ?
Perhaps another retailer ( were there any others importing Sauer guns at that time other than V,L&D and S,D&G?) ordered the gun and it was manufactured in a "lot" guns destined for US export?
Thank you,
Best regards
JBP

It could be construed that an inland Sauer Taubenflinte Modell Nr. XXIX could be the same platform as the Sauer V,L & D Modell Nr. 300 or 280 by just having the same dimensions. After thumbin' thru some info the Sauer of which you are a custodian just might be a V,L & D Modell Nr. 300 having a doll's head extension & Krupp 3 Ringe Spezial Stahl w/ upper & lower scears. The V,L & D Modell Nr. 280, w/ Sauer Nr. 22250 being that & possibly in the same lot, would be a V,L & D Modell Nr. 300 but wears common Krupp steel tubes and had a straight rib extension. Images appear to show both the V,L & D Modell Nr. 280 & 300 had upper & lower scears. Need to find a V,L & D from the period and measure the frame. Sure, there were several others retailers trying to fill the void of the supply lines being cut during WWI & others who were beginning to absorb the faltering S,D & G. Even unbadged, I'd still hazard a guess your Sauer was in the lot w/ Sauer Nr. 22251 as the preponderance of evidence sure does tilt the scales that way. Can you provide an overall tube length & weight? Typical was 26", 28", 30" or 32" and weight commenced @ 6 pounds and varied to 8 pounds.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

G&H does have some info on Sauer's w/in a 100 of your serial nummer:

http://secure.griffinhowe.com/research-listserial.cfm?make=37

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The barrels are 30" long and weigh 3# 10oz.
Overall weight of the gun is 7# 14 oz.
JBP

From the above 1906 advert, V,L & D did peddle some Hammer Pigeon Guns so I'd guess the offered Hammerless version also?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I contacted Bob Beach.
He has the record for the gun in his VL &D logs. It was a gun ordered for stock , with pigeon gun options ,upgraded steel barrels ( three ring Special Gun Barrel Steel ) and ejectors- listed for sale as VL&D 280E *
Is it unusual for the VL&D inscription not to appear on the gun, or was that addition curtailed sometime before A&F bought them out?
Bob will be sending me copies of all the paperwork flyer after Xmas.
Thank you for all your assistance.
Best regards,
JBP

Ah, a V,L&D Modell Nr. 280E. I had thought about an upgraded 280 but w/ the steel type I was leaning more toward the 300. Badged or unbadged, I really don't think the end user cared.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse