Found an English translation of a Belgian (in French) article about damascus production



Looking at the end of the 'ribbon', one can understand the various patterns that can be produced by alternating the tiny iron bars with steel. The 'Damas' illustrated certainly looks like what Lefever (and others) called 'Horse-shoe' damascus.

Lots of new stuff on the 'Damascus Barrels' PictureTrail
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16082038
including an amazing Parker brl with 'Terell' in the damascus pattern.

The strips of iron and steel in the 'ribbon' shown will produce a pattern similar to "Bernard" damascus. Also note the tiny 'roses' in the right barrel.

Just had a very gracious offer from one of the regular contributors here to share illustrations of about 30 damascus variants. My long suffering but much smarter spouse will get it scanned and added to the PictureTrail on arrival and I'll post when it's up.
Would still like to add high resolution close-up pics of some high grade Parker and LC Smith damascus. Please send by JPG attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!

And for your enjoyment, by C.J. Opacak

Dave Miles comes through again! He has a copy of the excellent article covering the Belgian damascus barrel makers from the April 1976, American Rifleman "Making Damascus Barrels"
Send me your e-mail address if you'd like me to forward the copy (please tell me I can't get in trouble for this!)

Thank you both! Brings thots of geezers before they were, old guns that weren't and dogs that knew what they needed to know to please their masters long before there were rings or trials.

Oh, and I like the fact that the rib is joined to a piece of homogenous steel for the doll's head, too.

You can send me a copy please,
gregandleesa@paradise.net.nz

BTW I cannot get private messages to work.

Cheers,

Greg

RevDocDrew, pls add me to your email list.

sdvdiamond@yahoo.com

Thank you, sv

Drew,

Send it my way. I believe you already have my email address. Flues barrel pictures coming your way soon.

BTW, are you part of my American Rifleman email group? I haven't had time to send out any articles in the last few months but I have about 100 articles back to the '30's that I have scanned and emailed.

Me, too!

hfn_03570@yahoo.com

Thanks a lot.

OWD

Since the theme seems to be Remington 1894s-Greg Martin's internet catalog is now up with some amazing guns
http://www.gregmartinauctions.com/gma/catalogs/june07_catalog.html
I just 'borrowed' pics showing the super-fine EE & DE damascus, and the A grade ('Oxford') 2 Stripe Crolle damascus below and added them to the PictureTrail

Here is a thread about making damascus for knife making. The guy that is doing this is not a barrel maker of course, but he is some sort of Guild-equivalent master of this sort of work. He has some video clip of the early part of the process and some discussion of what's happening.

There are lots of pretty knives out there, but his are a "cut above" the rest. Pun perfectly appropriate.....

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8758

Meanwhile some beautiful barrels here and I could stand to learn a lot about the different English damascus guns that I have (3 rifles, and several shotties).

Me too! Would like copy of article, thanks.

I tried sending a PM, but couldn't get it to work...."error on the page"

smilinjohntoo@yahoo.com

John

Yes, Please send me a copy also at kopkaie@msn.com
Thanks
Iggy

Found some more excellent pics of Lefever and Baker damascus on the Greg Martin Auctions site, including this Optimus (which might be Truk Extra or extra fine Turkish damascus)



I also asked the Remington Society if they can come up with the name used on E and D Grade 1894s. Should have the 1899 Parker catalog reprint soon and the poster illustrating about 30 kinds of damascus (which we'll scan and post.)

Many thanks to Pete M who graciously shared a c. 1900 product brochure by a Belgian brl maker. Some detail was lost in the scanning and posting, but it's up now http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=16082038
Interesting findings include several examples of a One Iron Crolle-Twist Laminate and 5 grades of "Turkish damascus" which appears to be what US gunmakers primarily used, but which was given names like "Boston, Oxford, Washington, American Flag, Horseshoe, etc." for marketing. The Lefever brls in the previous post look like either 1st quality Bernard or Leclere.

Dr Drew,

Glad you got it. Here are some more images.

Remington 1894 C grade - Star Damascus. Notice the rib.


Embedded name Zenobe Gamme. Dr Gaddy once posted some actual photos of this type of work. I just did not save them. Maybe some else did. Hopefully they will post them.


From Puraye's Le Damas. Identified by Gaier as one of the last workshops still making damascus tubes circa 1920


Modern Damasteel. A very different product with some resemblance to traditional damascus


Pete

Found the same image on the Belgian artisans website, which is a bit more clear
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20higny%20gb.htm

Let us remember that Damascus knife blades are completely differeent from Damascus gun barrel. Both are beautiful, however. I have obtained a bunch of twist and Damascus steel baeel cut offs that I am going to have made into knife blades. For the proper edge hardness, there will be a center core of regular knife steel. Should be very neat.

Pete

Received the Parker Bros. 1899 catalog re-print from Cornell Pubs, which confirms that G and D Grades had what Parker called "Fine Damascus" Here is a 1899 DH with fine '3 Blade Crolle'



C Grade guns had "Fine Bernard Steel" and I'd sure like to archive an example. Anyone with a damascus brl C Grade, please post a high resolution close-up here or e-mail by JPG attachment revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!

FINALLY found a high resolution close-up example of "Bernard" damascus on Keith Kearcher's website; recognizing that their are several 'quality' designations for "Bernard" and many makers

Rev, I sure would like to add to my American damascus/twist files if you have anything...I only have a few bits and peices and some of are for faux damascus...You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I am aware that American damascus and faux damascus were "off limits" subjects [here] in the past...we can exchange info privately if you think it may help to avoid a pissing match by angry readers..
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Did you happen to catch that episode of Globe Trekker (in Spain) were they claimed the history of damascus steel is interwoven with the history of flaminco (sp?) music and dance?

RC - didn't see that episode. Were they refering to the twisted laminate we refer to as damascus for gun barrels, or were they refering to actual Damascus blades made from Wootz. The two are different. I've never heard of Spain being a developer of laminate metal.

Robert: I suspect everything shown on the 'Damascus Barrels' PictureTrail is English or Belgian
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=16082038
and I only have one 'Faux damascus' pic (the last one)

Missed the Globe Trekker episode. Lots of stuff out there about damascus blade production (much less about gun barrels). The Moors controlled much of Iberia from 700-1200, and Grenada until 1492, and no doubt brought sword blade 'technology' with them. These folks claim the Flamenco came from Middle Eastern Dance http://www.middleeasterndance.net

according to the program that I saw...there is a valley in Spain were it is said that Flamenco music got it's start aganst the constant backdrop of ringing anvils that went 24 hrs a day on both sides of the valley.
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Twenty years ago I read where farriers across Europe saved the worn and headless horse shoe nails for re-use in the damascus steel process. It was theorized that the nails had enhanced grain properties due to the horses constant pounding on the cobblestones. These nais were then straightened, filed, and welded with a blacksmith weld, into long somewhat square rods. These rods where then filed, to open the grain, and bundled into packets, with ground bone dust, to be forged and twisted into damascus or composite steel. This is probably nothing new to you guys.
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What interests me is the damascus [gun barrel] steel that was made near Ithaca and in New York City and Boston. I guess I'm also interested in the damascus steel axes and hatchetts from around America, but mostly the the ones made by the Seneca Indians in Lackawanna NY, some under the name Buffalo Black Axe. The federal government played a role in setting up the steel industry in Lackawanna, mainly to employ the Senacas who were being forced to give up their hunting and gathering metheods of survival. I've heard, but not seen, that some of the best L & IJ White carpenters tools where available with Seneca made damascus. L & IJ White hand tools have always been too pricey for me to collect.
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Jerry Swinney once explained to me how the barrels makers of Motts Corners (near Ithaca), who made thousands of barrels for the Civil War effort, continued past the war into barrel steel for sporting guns. It was this skilled human resource coupled with the hydraulic water power thats exists in both Ithaca and Motts Corners that led to the founding of IGC. Before Jerry passed, I photographed most of his material. Now his edited notes are available commercially for about $300 in three volumes. I don't know if the Motts Corners material made into his books [posthumously]...glad I got a unedited copy the way I did.
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Once again my digital camera is loaned to a friend who is taking a run at ebay...tomorrow or Saturday, when I get it back, I'll start posting some hard evidence for your files...
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seems to me the the American Rifleman published an article on American damascus hatchetts and axes (in the 20's)
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Rocketman, maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't Nikolas Bis from Spain? Isn't the Bis name synonymous with European damascus?
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Rev, is that damascus picture trail your doing? It's great!...Either way, did you notice in the photo labeled "ribband" wound around a mandrel, that there is something strange. I think that winding was a factory reject that couldn't be finished...and it looks as though someone has purposly altered it to cover their tracks (as to winding and proper welding)

Robert,

Interesting information. I was able to turn up 2 names in the 1870 census, John B Lull (or Luff) and Benjamin Losey. Both listed their occupation as gunbarrel maker. This is for the Caroline, Tompkins County, NY census track, which for all practical purposes takes in Motts Corner.

What is IGC?

For a picture of Swinney
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/events/8th/Jerry_Swinney.jpg

Pete

Do you happen to know what year? I have most of the latter '20's in my collection.

Drew,

I haven't had a chance to take a picture of me etoile/'American Flag' damascus barrels but it seems you now have a good example. Do you still want a picture?

Pete...Yes... I think the water driven forge at Motts Corners became Losey & Lull (partners) for a period before becoming a blanket factory...One of the Losey decendants is, or was a member of this bullitin board system a few years back...IGC is Ithaca Gun Co...That's a great picture of Jerry...he looks like the actor from the movie "Cocoon" in that picture...I met Jerry around 1980 and kind of modeled my research/collecting after him...he told me some wild stories...based in fact...the most unusual was shortly before he passed, I was taking photos of his hand written files, fast and furious, while Larry Shuktnect was taping voice interviews with him. During one of these interviews, Swinney claimed that the unsolved mysterious common denominator that ran completely through his body of research was...how very many of the gunsmiths, that he spent his life chronicling, had passed away from tuberculosis (with no other explanation)...
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People think the Swinney files are the definitve work on NYS gunsmiths...but I can assure you, those files are only the tip of the iceberg...
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Utah...sorry, I'm not sure when without tearing into my own collection

How about this early Parker Twist barrel, that is mostly steel, with little iron. Thus the gray color.

RC - couple of things. The horseshoe nail thing was very likely done, although I've heard several versions. There would have been no special properties imparted. But, they were a good source of salvage steel.

I'd bet on the gunsmiths' demise from "tuberculosis" was actually silicosis from grinding barrels. Brit barrel makers had the same problem.

Sorry, but I don't know any details on Bis. Lot of good stuff here. Keep it up!!

Dave's barrels are very interesting and I've been following the thread about them on the PGCA Forum and was waiting to add them to the PictureTrail after something definitive was decided http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/3714.html
One of the articles I've found states that STEEL STAINS BLACK AND IRON WHITE/SILVER after the acid etching. Is this correct? so the brls have a LOWER steel/iron ratio than the usual damascus? Dale told Dave that he thought the brls didn't take color because of the high steel content? Apparently Parker briefly made their own damascus brls?

Mike: I would like to add your 'American Flag' brls to the PictureTrail. Please include the make, grade, and year of production. You can post the pic here or send by JPG attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!

Just called Dale Edmonds, who was quite helpful. He confirmed, and apparently Dr Gaddy discussed in the 97' Double Gun Journal articles, that iron turns black and steel turns white, probably because the oxidation is removed much easier from the steel. Issue settled

DaveM...whats that patent date on the barrel flats of your Parker? It looks like Apr ?? 1876...can you tell me that exact date please?
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sorry, I don't understand the info about mostly steel and a little iron....maybe someone can explain...
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I thought steel was an iron alloy, made tough by forcing carbon into iron ...aren't the black lines in damascus and twist actually the carbon (martinsite) that was folded into the steel? (carbon from bone and coal)...
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Please don't get overly technical with the answer...if you could, explain it in a way that could be understood by the thousands of uneducated men who actually made all the damascus/twist barrels. The men who made these damascus barrels knew full well that the objective was to fold and drive carbon into the iron for a stronger, tougher material that could withstand the forces and pressures involved with the end product. stahl- stand fast
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Rocketman...the thing that gave wootz damascus its charachteristic properties was primarily the naturally occuring impurities at the location of the site where the iron ore was collected. The ironmongers smelting and carbon folding techniques may be reproducable in other parts of the world, but without the original ore source, you can't clone wootz. The thing I find interesting was the forging techniques used by the smiths who used wootz billets. Those techniques can be used on any damascus, especially scrap double shotgun barrels...and guys are...3 or 4 years back, a guy offered me (4 sale at a gun show) a ladder damascus bowie...the guy is an advanced Cattaraugus knife collector, and he named it as "ladder damascus"...I'm not interested in ladder damascus, unless it's real wootz. Far flung as it may sound, I have Albert Paley's hand crank forge from when he was a young man. I live only about 75 miles away from his studio in Rochester NY, also the home of Jerry Swinney. About 15 years ago I used it to forge two damascus swords for and with my two nephews, had I known about the wootz techniques back then, perhaps I would have used them. That was the last of my damascus/twist experiments

Carbon can't be mechanically driven into iron - it must "disolve" in a high heat environment. The chemical combination of iron and carbon forms an alloy we call steel (carbon content over about 0.05%). The folding and heating process exposes more area of the iron to carbon and, thus, increases the rate of absorbation. Case hardening uses the same chemical process, but doesn't expose as much of the steel to the carbon rich casing material. The hazard of mechanical introduction of carbon is that any carbon not absorbed (or contaminate material) will be included in the final metal as a very weak spot. The larger the inclusion, the more detrimental to the strength of the base metal. Removing all extranious material and arriving at a known and controled carbon content, along with avoiding cooling shrinkage voids is the holy grail of steel making. Old time craftsmen did some very amazing work considering the tools, ores, and knowledge they had to work with.

Wootz has been replicated and documented. It produces a nice blade steel, but nothing special compared to modern alloys. Of course, it would have seemed magical to anyone used to using an iron/low carbon blade. Its claim to fame was being workable at low enough forging temperatures to not burn out the naturally occuring carbon and, so, leave you with a fairly high (for the time) carbon alloy. I believe the trick is a very narrow level of mangnese (I could be wrong on that alloying component). Anyone else remember the reports on this?

Some interesting infro on Wootz steel, the first by a damascus expert at Iowa State:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html
Looks like it's vanadium and molybdenum that cause the damascene appearance of Wootz
http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf
http://www.brisa.fi/wootz3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

I couldn't find anything about Wootz being used for gun barrels or 'pattern welded' (what we call damascus) steel.

Rocketman...I have driven and folded carbon into mild steel more than I should have, I could have been working for money during that time. The technique is like reloading in that you're stuck adhering to a few concepts that can't be deviated from or falure will occur. For the moment, forget the 30-50 inch continous blacksmith weld that is required for one tube, and try welding the basic lap joint. Without the coal dust and fresh (unburned) ground bone in between the two pieces, to outgas carbon while welding you will get a "cold weld"...Cold welds are where most failures occur. Probaly by not removing all the scale before welding. If you adhere to time tested techniques, like applying the bone to the surface to be welded directly from your sieve, there is little chance of a bone chunk causing an inclusion the way residual scale will. Even if you apply too much bone in one spot, it simply burns off. I spent several years during and after college on the edge of anvil

WOW!!! Great wootz links...is that true taht some wootz steel can exeed 20% [Brisa link]? I find that VERY hard to believe...Wiki says 2% not 20%...and I'm shocked to see hyperbole on that wikipedia page and links.
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One of the wiki links has an article about, what used to be called, the DSRT damascus steel reseach team...somewhere in the attic I have a picture of those guys from the 1980's...
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Oh yeah...the one thing not covered on those pages, so perhaps it's not correct, is how damascus steel got it's name. Under the heading "Origin of the Term" it offers only one plausable explanation and cites several others, but doesn't list the long accepted version that the first carbon steel billets or cakes came from merchants who traded out of Damascus Assyria. Worldwide people began to associate those "cakes" with Damascus [the city] despite their true origin on manufacture. Much the same that we call all reciprocating saws "Sawsall" or an adjustable wrech a "Cresent Wrench", no matter who made the saw or wrench... Water pump pliers we call Channelocks.
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Simply stated, the misnomer of damascus spread before the knowledge of true origin.

Drew,

I was disapointed to find that something in my gunroom corner where this gun has been stored till it gets its renovation has really turned the colors dark. Even with bright sunlight this was the best I could do.

The gun is an Ithaca Flues, Grade 1 1/2 with 28" barrels.

Thanks Mike and the pattern is nicely demonstrated in that pic. Did Ithaca call that 'American Flag' damascus? It looks alot like the 'Bernard' pattern I posted on the top of p. 3. What year production?
We'll get it added to the PictureTrail and thanks again!

I have generically heard it called 'American Flag' but I don't know if Ithaca used that terminology. 'Etoile' is I believe the correct name for this pattern.

Walt ????

I'll try to get a picture tomorrow when the sun is overhead. It was on the horizon when I took these pictures and I had a hard time keeping my shadow off the barrels.

Per the list on this site it was produced in 1912.



Mike

PS Your page three is not my page three. It depends on your settings of posts per page.

Thanks again Mike. This is Pete M's Remington (again) which is an excellent example of a "Star" or "Etoile" pattern-and I agree they are certainly similar

Drew,

Just a quick note. I pulled that picture off this site at some time. I could only wish to own a Remington that nice.

Pete

I think the additional 'stripes' in the example I posted are the reason for the 'American Flag' name but they are both versions of etoile.

Here's a late 1860s Laminated steel barrel on a nice Scott BL. I think at that time, the British laminated steel was of the highest quality. I think the finish on these barrels is the original from the Scott Factory.

Very interesting Daryl. The rib is clearly twist, but the brls look like the 'Damascus Higny' or 'Damascus Leclere 3rd quality' illustrated on the Higny poster http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20higny%20gb.htm
Probably a 'One Iron Crolle' variant.
(I'm glad someone other than me has nothing better to do on a long Memorial Day weekend than to 'talk' about guns and damascus barrels )

Here are a couple of rather severe plain twist barrels from the muzzle-loading era. The first is by James Patrick, the second John Blissett & Son. Both British makers. Bill

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=473746&c=500&z=1"][/url]

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=473747&c=500&z=1"][/url]

Nice William-have they been re-finished and who did the work?

Here are the barrels on my Daly

Barrels on my Miller and Val Greiss O/U combo hammer gun 16ga/9.3x72r

Barrels on my S Sutherland (GH Ferris pat)

Pape 16ga

Revdoc, there may be a similar look, but consider that the British Laminated was one of , if not THE best, of that period. I believe it was best in the tests often reported , was it by Greener ? Now, when we think of Belgian Laminated, we take a step back, as it is usually the lowest grade offered and on the lowest grade guns. I think you will find a different quality in the British Laminated Steel. I also see laminated steel on P. Mullin guns of the same period. His guns sold for up to $300, when that would almost buy a house with servants. Of course, his guns originated in Birmingham and he finished them to the very highest level, but with no engraving.

You are correct Daryl: From Dr Gaddy- "The top barrels in the famous Birmingham Proof House destructive tests in 1891 were three-iron British Laminated Steel barrels. Laminated Steel barrels were made the same way as Damascus barrels but had higher (usually 70% ) high quality steel in the composite." Unfortunately, his damascus barrel board did not include an example of 'British Laminated.' I already added that pic to the PictureTrail and will correct the caption and thanks!

Revdoc, we see lots of Damascus samples, laminated samples, twist samples, then take these and multiply them by the number of various sources. It all gets confusing, but to my , admittedly engineering trained mind, it would be wonderful to have an article that showed all these barrels, from all the sources, side by side. Maybe you could do an article for DGJ or similar ? Now, I don't know if writing is your interest, but maybe someone could pick up this gauntlet and do a broadranging article with good photos from each era and source.

It's also clear that 'reading' the damascus pattern requires knowledge of the grade of the gun.
Thanks for the encouragement Daryl, but a. I'm not that smart yet and b. almost all the pics on the PictureTrail were 'borrowed' from internet auction sites, pics from threads on gun forums (PGCA, LCSCA, here, etc.), and pics sent to me. I have not scanned nor posted any pics from books, but probably do have some legal exposure nevertheless. I'm comfortable putting the pics up, in that I have no commercial interest in the PictureTrail, they came from the 'Public Domain,' and civil action against me would cost more than it would accomplish (I hope!)
Anyway-my intent with the PictureTrail was to provide a resource, and thanks to Dave Miles and others, I'm most thankful the some of Dr Gaddy's contributions were not lost. Hopefully, Dave will add some of these threads to the FAQ section (and we've e-mailed about that.)

Revdoc - The Patrick and Blissett barrels have both been refinished. I did the work, myself, following Dr. Gaddy's procedures in the DGJ.

Bill

Another example of Star Damascus, this time on a Daly. Not sure where I found this image...


Pete

REB87...What? ...AF touch mark on Liege barrels...marked S Sutherland...on a George Ferriss patent...??? Is that correct? It is rumored that George went to France...possibly something to do with Ferris wheel...but that is the wrong George Ferris..
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the George Ferriss that was issued pat # 119834 is spelled with double s...Ferris (wheel) is single s
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It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that the Belgians would rather leave the name off of the gun, than pay royalties to some New York Yankee.
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A couple of years back on this bullitin board system, several members chatted it up over some Belgian made double that was made on Lefever patents...I say "bull"! Either that gun does not exist, or perhaps it's a converted Belgian muzzleloader from back in the days when Lefever was converting muzzle loaders into breech loaders like the Barber and Lefevers..
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I can see the patent Ferriss breech on your barrels, but with an August Francotte touchmark, I guess it's possible, as Francotte seemed to be one of the few Liege makers that paid royalties rather than just make an improvement on other designs ,giving them a means of circumventing the original patent,like the Deforney Holland ejector system.
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If your gun is in fact made on a George Ferriss patent, it belongs in a museum. If it's originally made that way ,and not converted, with ANY Ferriss markings, it should probably be in the Liege Arms Museum...so...I'm guessing it's a converted gun or a Belgian design rip-off (post 1871) only because the gun seems to be too good (interesting) to be true...which is it?
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Utah...your Flues 1 1/2 barrels are exactly the "stars and stripes" pattern known as American Flag Damascus...American Flag Bunting Damascus would have been a more accurate description, but since everyone knew what bunting was back then, there was no need to include the word. Bunting was popular back then, it's relatively rare today...
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Robert,
Here are some more pics of said gun.
It is marked "Fine Laminated Steel S Sutherland" on the rib.

It is marked "GH Ferriss Patent" on the left plate, "October 10 1876" on the right.

Ross

OK ...it's not the patent breech that I first thought, but wow, that gun still belongs on a museum...I thought you had an example of the cap lock breech loader as can be seen in patent 119834...Geo Ferriss had many patents, but none that I have are on on that date...Rather than sway anyones interpretation of your photos along with the proofs and touchmarks, I will just show the two shotgun patents that I have and hopefully many observant eyes will result in an accurate understanding of this extremely unusual double...This gun deserves it's own thread. Even if it stalls for months 'til the right bits of Belgian data surface..That MG brevete number on the action flats will probably corresponde to that patent date. Maybe that patent will answer some questions. More likely, it'll create more questions...I'll try to run it down..
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I can't help but wonder about the Belgian connection...Did George try to market his design abroad, like Browning and Newton did, or was he already connected to the Belgians because of his ordnance designs?





Some damascus data to follow shortly

Pete M- I think Doug Mann posted that Linder Daly and labeled it "Truk (Turkish) Extra" Looks to be maybe SIX Iron Crolle with a "Star" pattern. Very high quality damascus.
reb87- I added your S. Sutherland laminated steel brls to the PictureTrail (next to Daryl's W&C Scott) and thanks! Is it c. 1880?
William- VERY nice job on your brls!
and Robert- thanks for explaining the 'Stars and Stripes' bunting pattern!

In my opinion damascus steel, as with all other alloys, has never reached the degree of sophisication as it has in recent decades [except for maybe the high art of the Prince Phillip, Remington, or Terrell type damascus]...Well here are some leads for anyones American damascus files...
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In 1937, there was a company in Rockford Ill. by the name of Damascus Steel Product Corporation. They held a patent for a meat cleaver, but that couldn't have been their only product...Of course 1937 is very late for damascus barrels...
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In 1856, John Nevill and Lemuel Curtis recieved a patent for simplified damascus substitute [alloy] assigned to J P Farrar of the "Damascus Steel Manufacturing Company"...kind of early for the golden age of double shotgun production, but none the less, another lead.
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Warner is from New York City


The Sachs technique or something similar has been seen on a high grade Parker
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There are several more damascus shotgun patents to be shown in the next weeks...sorry they're difficult to locate because they are pre- personal computer files...

Here is a pic that John Mann (I think)sent me some time ago. The second pic is my Clark and Sneider. It just started sprinkling rain when I snapped the pic.

Barrels on an unusual gun I have.

FRANKLIN BROCKWAY WARNER
Patents:
818802 - DUST CAP AND SOLAR EYEPIECE FOR TELESCOPES
1181704 -BARREL FOR SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
1167233 - MANUFACTURE OF BARRELS FOR SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Interesting description for 1,167,233. He was trying to fix the problem of corrosion caused by early nitro powder. His solution was to leave the mandrel in the damascus tube then bore out the mandrel. This gets referenced years later by E.R. Shaw for a patent they filed regarding barrel inserts.

GUSTAAY ADOLF SACHS
Lived in the Dakota territories, then moved to Eugene Oregon.
Patents:
353432 - BREECH-LOADING FIRE-ARM
410678 - METHOD OF ORNAMENTING GUN-BARRELS
495639 - BREAKDOWN BREECH-LOADING GUN
523130 - EJECTOR FOR BREAKDOWN GUNS
674284 - BREECH-LOADING FIREARM
759637 - BURGLAR-ALARM
The Sachs patent essentially engraves a twist pattern on a barrel. A novel approach to faux damascus.

John Nevill
Issue date: Dec 9, 1856
16214 - IMPROVEMENT IN MAKING CAST-STEEL
He claims to describe a method to convert wrought-iron to cast steel.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=K81UAAA...is=1857#PPP1,M1

George H. Ferris
Patents:
118849 - IMPROVEMENT IN CARTRIDGE-LOADERS
119834 - IMPROVEMENT IN BREECH-LOADING FIRE-ARMS
246108 - CANNON

Here's a couple for you Robert:
James R Bradley and Moses D. Brown of Chicago, IL
72162 - IMPROVEMENT IN THE MANUFACTURE OF STEEL
Issue date: Dec 17, 1867

Reinhard-Mannesmann of Remscheid, Prussia
365482 - PROCESS OF ROLLING DAMASKEENED RODS
Issue date: Jun 28, 1887
Filed in Germany, England and the USA

WILLIAM EOSE of Halesowen, England
39174 - IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY AND ORNAMENTATION OF METALS
Issue date: Jul 7, 1863

Pete

Thanks...I didn't have the Mannesmann patent...Bradley and Eose didn't have drawings to post pics of...but I really want to thank you for getting the ball rolling on American made damascus. In the past, damascus experts rejected any notion that other than "uncle Bob" (or someone) at Ithaca, damascus simply was not produced in America. In fact damascus steel, the earliest available form of carbon steel, was produced to some degree, in nearly every industrial nation.The information you've posted points to the the real truth about damascus actually being rolled rather than forged since c1880's. In the past at this BBS system, that kind of information, that flies in the face of common long held beliefs, could have got you a gang bashing here. Everyone took Greeners forging information and used it as a corner stone. I seriously doubt that any of the post 1890 barrels were forged. I'm guessing that post 1890 barrels make up 95% of the damascus doubles out there. It's been a long time since I read the Eose patent, but I think rolling damascus weighed heavy into it, and that was 1863..
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It's hard to believe that most of these guys actually think that a team of 3 Belgian Elves, working for Lochet-Hebron, worked for days hand forging each tube, as pictured in Greener's book. Yeah right! Then they added shipping to America where the workers at Ithaca Gun Co, knit the barrels together, built a gun around them, the sold it for $40 retail.
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Most of damascus barrels that we see were machine wound onto a negative draft mandrel, and rolled off the assembly line like hotcakes. [no pun intended...wootz cakes] Probably some of the, stubborn about tradition, Brits, continued to hand forge a little later but it wasn't Greener.
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Pete, one last thing...about your last post...it's made up of highly concentrated data that leads directly to volumes more information. The problem is, all the hours of work it takes to construct such a posting is lost once the thread dies. Had you printed it, photographed it and posted the image, readers could save your entire post as 1 image. This way, your hard earned posting would never die and have a better chance of getting into the hands of the next researcher. With all the time you've already spent, I don't feel right about asking for more. I was just hoping that some future researcher could stand on your shoulders for a better look....

Bob

Schaefer



Whitney



Spencer

reb87: Thanks so much for graciously sharing these (high quality) pics-which'll be added to the PictureTrail
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=16082038
Schaefer- Is that Wm. R. Schaefer? Rose pattern Bernard?
Whitney Safety Fire Arms Co. with the grip safety lock- Two Iron Crolle?
Spencer- Is that Spencer Arms Co. or Lancaster-Spencer? another 'Stars & Stripes' American Flag? To my eye it looks just like the Flues 1 1/2 that Mike posted.
Is that about right?

I don't have much trouble understanding how the "irons" or composite rods could be sized, thinned, stretched between rolls. How precisely are the edge welds achieved once the spiral is on the "negative draft mandrel"? Is there an unstated suggestion here that somewhere in the northeastern U.S. existed a powered hammer akin to a predecessor of the Rotoforger which Ithaca used on the steel billets for the 37. Different ends here I admit. If the output of Belgian hammer jockies wasn't up to he demand, where's the equipment or the record of the equipment that replaced them? The patent drwg of the faux applique machine is interesting. Where's the drwg of a machine that could make the real McCoy?

jack

I've followed this thread with some interest. I would like to suggest that anyone that is interested in damascus steel try to get hold of a copy of "Damascus Steel" by Manfred Sachse. I am unaware of any book that covers the subject more throughly than this one. The copy that I have belonged to Oscar Gaddy and I purchased it from his wife after he passed away.

I'm not sure whether it is possible to scan and post some of the pictures that are in the book but I believe that the information in this book may clear up some of the questions about damascus manufacture.

Rabbit, I wouldn't mix in hammer forging just yet...and if you really want to understand barrel damascus, try to avoid the overwhelming volumes of blade technology {which is mostly forged}...the reason the mandrel had negative draft (slightly tapered) was so it could be removed easily.
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Reb87...about your Spencer...there are several different names associated with that design...The "Norwich" and Torkelson are just two...hopefully someone, who lives near Norwich or Worcester Connecticut, will take the time to sort out the evolution of the Norwich gun...somewhere I have a Torkelson that is very similar to your Spencer..seems To me that Torkelson was associated with Iver Johnson, John Lovell, Andrew Fryberg, and Martin Bye among others. The evolution of the Norwich or Worcester gun has yet to be roughed out, let alone examined closely...

Before this slips to far down the page. Doug please scan and share!!

Bob, I can't imagine why the edge welding method would go out the window simply because the master and his gang aren't fast enuf. Hammers can't be ganged, made into shaped swages, powered by hydraulic ram? How precisely would these strips be welded if not by pressure? Surely you're not suggesting heliarc in 1863. As for "negative" draft, if you had been around patternmaking or toolmaking for any molding or casting trade, you'd know that there is just draft (taper). Never heard the word negative used in the several years I spent around tooling for hand-laid fiberglass and vacuum-formed plastics. The only context I can think for the concept of positive and negative is in the relationship of plug to tool to final product.

jack

Edge welding didn't go out the window...you can't make damascus or twist tubes without edge welding...and whats all the talk about rotary hammers and heliarc? I guess I wasn't specific enough when I said don't mix in "hammer forging" referring to Ithaca's rotary forge that's 50 years later than the period of interest here. Hydraulic rams? trip hammers never had hydraulic rams? You've lost me...
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Edge welding can be easily achieved with heat, pressure, and borax...impact is not necessary, it's just another way of delivering pressure...

Spencer 1882 pump. The Barrel is damascus and the tube magazine is twist.

Bob,
I have seen Forehand arms and Hopkins Allen shotguns that look exactly like this one(spencer). Ill have to dig out my Torkelson and compare them.
Ross

I didn't use either the word "impact" or "triphammer", Bob. In fact if you look closely, you'll see that I used the word "pressure" which can be applied, as you say, by the momentus momentarius or the squeezus sustainus ha ha ha ha. Indeed the RotoForger may not be in the line of descent from whatever method and mechanism you're suggesting. What is? Hollow ram on the end of the mandrel that bucks up the edges of the spiral. Cmon, what ARE YOU talking about (in specifics of course)?

jack

Jack,

Good questions. From my very limited understanding in reading some of Claude Gaier's work. The relationship between the US and Belgium can be traced back to the American Revolution. (Belgian Gunmaking and American History by Gaier.) Gaier notes the huge volume of firearms destined for American shores after the revolution began. We are aware that during the American Civil war there were official and some not so official observers from Europe. One of the lessons that the Belgians took home was the impact of mechanization in the making of firearms. Several companies took this to heart. Gaier points to FN and Pieper as taking up the "new way" of using factories and machines. ("Quatre siècles d'armurerie liégeoise" by Gaier. Also "Les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie 1859-1957" by Michel Druart.) This was stepped up over time. We like to think of a Belgian cottage industry in sporting firearms. This was also true. Gaier notes the there was almost a class hatred between the cottage firearm maker and the factory worker.

I stated all that for a reason. I have pictures of both methods. The end of damascus production in any reasonable volume was some time in the 1920's.

Since the formation of the EU all patents are now under one authority. I have tried to use their web search engine to find exactly the sort of patents you are asking about. Unfortunately, my attempts are futile and frustrating. There is something I am not getting, but the results are always worthless. I guess, I should start trying to pry that information out of the American patents. You are correct, some one was making these machines. If we can identify an American source and date it, we are closer to understanding.

Also, Robert's caution about damascus for blades is correct. It is a different product. Which is why I did not attempt to track that Rochford reference above.

Pete

Doug,

Please do post some. If any one is looking for this book, it was published in German and English. The English version is difficult to find. There is one up on eBay now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/GERMAN-DAMASCUS-SWOR...8QQcmdZViewItem

I am not connected to this auction.

Pete

Oh I get it I guess. No American damascus barrel production (my mistake) but immense secrecy in Belgium to hide the "new ways" from their own Luddites/labour protectionists. Must have succeeded since there appears to be an entire mechanized industry which never happened.

jack

My next Model 12 project gun will have a Damascus magazine tube. No worry about blowing up the gun, and a legitimate "new project" for Sherman Bell. "Are Composite Magazine Tubes Safe with Smokeless Loads?"

Rabbit, There were damascus barrel makers in America, but very few...relatively none, when compared to Europe and England...during the hey-day of American double production it seems as though not one American damascus maker could not compete with the Europeans makers in both numbers or cost..American makers chose the fluid steel alternative, as the Europeans eventually did.
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Also
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Didn't all heavy industry, in Liege, crash during WWI or WWII, or was Liege spared?
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Although I have no saved proof to offer, I was told, that after WW II, a few Val Trumpia gunsmiths (desparate consumers of Liege forgings) bought out Manufacture Liegeois's drop forges, dies, or fixtures. Shortly afterwards, the Val Trumpia double shotgun production numbers climbed like never before while the Liege smiths re-tooled.
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If the Liege sporting gun industry wasn't interrupted during WW II, why then would the Italian gunsmiths be so desparate as to buy their tooling?

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Pete...If you could narrow it down at the US patent office, there will probably be a European classification number to cross reference...But I won't waste my time on such a pursuit...I've been searching for years for any related patent to the venerable Belding & Mull without success. There are more dispensing and metering threads than I can view. The machinery patents that you seek could be buried in any number of classifications with all the various sub-catagories or threads. Could be in a winding thread, could be in a seam welding thread, or it could be in a manufacturing process thread. It's probably in several threads. But who knows...you might get lucky by patent searching the names of known makers of damascus/twist steel. If that doesn't work, it's going to be hard row to hoe. Maybe Gaier's book will offer some search names...Bob

I think part of this has to do with profitability. If you are going to start making barrels, then you will be looking to the rifle and hand gun markets as well. From at least 1890 to 1920's American policy implemented a series of tariffs on imported goods. So, the Belgians, English and German barrel makers had to be offering a unique / affordable product. In addition, makers like Heuse had American agents competing for business here.


From the little research I have done. After WWI there was a great outcry about German atrocities in Belgium, mainly forced labor. I do not believe the factories themselves were damaged. After WWII the a lot of the heavy industry of Belgium was damaged by Allied bombing and the ground war that ensued. So there had to be a major rebuilding effort.


The Italians were in even worse shape after the war. A lot of damage was done during the German retreat and again the bombing campaign.

Hopefully, some one with more detailed knowledge of this period will respond.

Pete

Pete...I know nothing of the import tariffs but this....and I am reluctant say this, as it will surely be interpreted as "fighting words" by some...but here goes...
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Back in the 19teens an immigrant Austrian apprenticed gunsmith by the name of Fred Adolph of Genoa and Rochester New York imported Austrian and other high grade guns into America. He advertised that he made the guns to cover the fact that he was in fact importing the guns in pieces in order to skirt the import tariffs. Because of the Fred Adolph stories, and the fact that his close personal friend, Chas Newton (a lawyer and owner of Newton Rifle Corp.), also tried to follow suit as a barrel importer for his own factory, I think barrels (and parts) were exempt from any stiff tariffs...I can elaborate on the Newton barrel importing effort if you would like.
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As for the Italians being heavily damaged, maybe the Val Trumpia region was spared becuase of it's location away from the shores, way up north. By the way...I was told that as a general rule (not always), you can locate family origins by the last vowel. Families whose name ends in "o" or "a" are from sothern Italy (traditionally)...Family names that end in "i" are from the north, like Bernadelli, Zanotti, and Beschi...just in general though

The tariffs started out as a protectist move for the American farmer. They had the opposite effect. McKinley gained national recognition with his 1890 tariff. The tariff wars in Congress raged for almost 30 years. The actual tariff rates and those items on the list changed back and forth. I believe that the barrel tubes incurred 1 rate, while finished barrels a higher rate. One of Wilson's campaign planks was to do away with the tariffs, which to a certain extent he did.

A Puck cartoon attributing the Republican defeat to the McKinley Tariff. With McKinley as Napoleon leading his troops out of Russia.


I am surprised there aren't more stories about "black market" gun parts. Yes, what more do you have about Newton.

Pete

I like to think that I have the most of the big picture when it comes to the the evolution of the Newton barrels. I've been a long time wildcatter, shooting a .220 Dean (blown out swift), .256 Sabad (Vom Hofe), .30 Reis, .256 Newton, and I recently acquired a ".30 Nedgley" barrel by Neidner Rifle Corp. but I haven't started on it yet. The area where I live is wildcat country, maybe because of Newton's influence on local interests, but whatever the reason, Western New York has been the home of well over a dozen wildcats. Most notably the 25.06 (.25 Newton to .25 Neidner to 25.06 Rem) .338 Winchester (.33 Newton with a belt) and 6.5 06 (.256 Newton)
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That being said, it's important to note that Newton abandoned the .25 caliber bullet for the 6.5, not because of the liability of the .25 getting into the wrong guns as some have suggested, but because Mauser, Steyr, and Sauer where already tooled for 6.5. ... WW I, and the tremors that led up to it, created enough difficulties, that ultimately Newton changed horses mid-stream and abandoned importation from Mauser and Sauer, and just imported a rifling machine from Steyr (in 6.5). The machine arrived in several shipments of parts and upon assembly, no one could get to work correctly. In a letter to Newtons investors, he explained that one of his large expenses was the high cost of paying his "model maker" (Emil Flues) to work exclusively trying to make the machine work. After months of wrestling with it, Newton brought in a barrel expert (Harry Pope) to work out the remaining kinks...which he did...and to this day, if you know what your looking for, you can still buy a Newton rifle, hand finished by Flues with Pope rifling.

Oh yeah... I have the remains of Harry O Dean's files and unpublished manuscripts...He was a gun writer for several gun magazines after WW II ...and big Newton enthusiast/researcher/writer and for what ever the reason he was also photographer for Marlin, Ithaca, Savage Fox, Crossman and others. I got the manuscripts and negatives, but unfortunately all the factory photos were stolen by Joe Reece and the "high tech burglary gang" along with Charles Newton's personal Austrian drilling marked Fred Adolph, Genoa New York. The gun can't be missed as it has a gold C N cypher where the top lever should be. There's a picture of the gun in his files. They stole Harry's entire collection from his widow a few weeks after he died.

Many thanks to those of you who suggested Keith Kearcher to my younger brother. His Greener G60 (he found the grade marking not on the trigger guard but on the fore end iron) just back today from having had his barrels refinished, sighting ivory bead replaced, ebony diamond insterts restored, stock glass bedded and action tightened up. Keith measured the minumum bore wall thickness at .035. I think this one will be a good shooter for many years to come.

I'll leave it to my brother to post more photos, here is a photo of his damascus. Keith turned the gun around in record time (under 4 weeks). I think these barrels are the highly prized three iron. My brother just got the Greener book and wonders if these are the silver, stub, or other version of Greener's damascus.

Kearcher would certainly know, but they look like high grade Bernard. When was the Greener made?

Rev-

Thanks. Another member based on the SN dated it to the late 1880s.

Doug

Well... turn of the century Parker catalogs state their damascus is hammered and turned, which doesn't support my belief that most skelp barrels were rolled onto the mandrel rather than hammered inch by inch. Of course the catalog makes no attempt to clarify that they don't actually make the barrels, they simply purchase them from various sources (on a far away continent), which makes the process way beyond their control. So I'm not buying it...but here is the data for anyone wishing to add to their damascus files.

Robert- that's where the quote on the 'Damascus Barrels' PictureTrail album intro page originated
"These fine barrels are not worked and twisted so neatly and nicely that they may look beautiful alone, but rather for the reason that greatest lightness, combined with greatest durability, may be produced." (from the 1899 Parker Bros. catalog)

I'd like to add a few more interesting/meaningful quotations if anyone has a good one.

rev...sorry to re-hash ground that has already been covered...I was hoping to have something new for you...
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not that these qoutes will relate to your damascus picture trail, but they have always been my favorites...
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taken from a sign in Harry Pope's shop
"If you must know when your gun will be done, the answer is now. Take it when well done, or take it elsewhere"
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then this not so good gunshop sign
"Gunsmithing is a lot like oats. Premium oats will command a premium price, but oats once through the horse do come a little cheaper"

The white is iron and the dark is steel. Did we not decide it was opposite just the other day?

Yes, the Parker catalog was one of the sources of my original confusion-but per other sources, Dale Edmonds, and Dr Gaddy- it's IRON turns BLACK and STEEL turns WHITE.

So does it stand to reason that the barrels with the most steel (white swirl) in them are the superior barrels and thus, the percentage of white the barrel, a fair indication of the quality of a damascus barrel; or is there anything good about having iron in a barrel?

It would appear that in the Greener photo I posted above, there is a lot of steel in those barrels (is this an example of the famous 70% Birmingham damascus...actually it looks like it might have a bit more than 70% white swirl)?

On p. 380 of 'L.C. Smith "The Legend Lives"', the damascus barrels as graded by Hunter Arms are shown, and the steel % described as follows:
English Stub Twist- 52%
Good Two Rod Damascus- 60%
Good Four Stripe Chain Damascus- 60%
Fine Three Rod Damascus- 67%
Finest Three Rod Damascus- 70%
Choice Three Rod Herring Bone Pattern- 70%

The Greener brls may be 'Bernard', which was available in several grades. Please see Ferdinand Drissen's 1897-1898 price sheet:

More notes on American damascus if anyone is still interested
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In early 1864, Walter Baker of Ilion NY (very near Lisle NY. then home of W H Baker, but I don't know if they're related)recieved a patent for a trip hammer that was specially designed for making gun barrels (patent 41669)...one of the reasons I'm mentioning this patent, is to show the tail end of hammering, and that by the late 1860's the shotgun industry had already adopted the higher volume production techniques. I am hoping that the thread contributor with access to the Tompkins County directory will cross check the name of Walter Baker, to see if he appears anywhere near Motts Corners (prior to 1863). I'll check Jerry Swinney's files for the same.
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In 1865, Ethan Allen recieved a patent for twisting, winding, and welding damascus shotgun barrels. The patent, 48249, goes into details of the process. One the witnesses is Sullivan Forehand. Then, exactly one year later Ethan recieved another patent for soldering the tubes together through internal flaming. Again Sullivan Forehand was a witness. Ethan Allen resided in Worcester Mass at the time of both patents
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In 1869, a patent was issued to Selah Hiler of Harlem NY for improvement in the manufacture of gun barrels in which he states that "sucessive rolling operations" is the "usual" (manufacturing process) (by 1869). This is not the only reference to the rolling of damascus shotgun barrels in the historical record, but it is the last time I will spend trying to convince the guys still holding onto the thousands of hammering elves concept. (samurai barrels)


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Lastly, although this is not for American made damascus, I thought that you might be interested to know that winding was not the only technique used for making damascus barrels. In 1892, Franz Meixner of Austria recieved a U.S. patent for a new departure in damascus barrel making that involves many cones stacked around the mandrel. This technique offers a much higher surface to surface area for welding, and theoretically offers a far stronger damascus barrel than anything seen before. (US pat 477763)


I hope I'm adding to the understanding and not inadvertantly adding to the misunderstandings involved with damascus steel shotgun barrels...Please note how the great missing chapter of American double evolution keeps cropping up ...Worcester

Here's a copy of Ethan Allen's damascus patent. I decided to post it only because it's a very interesting read. Please say if this data is overly technical.

Walter Baker is 33 in 1870. Born in England and works in the armory. He lives in German Flats, NY with his wife and 4 children.

William H Baker is 44 in 1880. He lives in Manlius, NY with his wife and 7 childern, the youngest a boy named Walter. William H Baker is listed as being born in NY.

Of course, I could have these 2 names very confused...

Worcester is interesting. It is the home of the Bay State gun company which was later purchased by Hopkins & Allen. Bay State used several patents by W.H. Davenport, who later sold single barrel shotguns under his own name.

By the way. Nice work finding the trip hammer patent.

Drew,

I like the price list. I have seen similiar, but never so complete.

Pete

Pete,
You sure nailed it down at light speed. With W H and Walter being only a year apart and born on different continents, I guess it's highly unlikely they're related. Also, Walter's being born in England, makes it unlikley that he ever worked for the dyed in the wool outfit later known as Losey and Lull (in Motts Corners) Thank you Bob

Pete: The Price List comes from the April, 1976 American Rifleman article, and helps a great deal trying to interpret the quality level of the various named damascus patterns.

Rev,
After all this is your topic...and you have taught me 10X more about damascus barrels than anyone...I was hoping that you would say whether or not I'm adding to the understanding or whether I'm being overly technical. I figured that the biggest contributions I could add, is to dispell the erred concepts that damascus was never produced in America and the samurai barrel notion. I hope you see this data as positive advances in the understanding of damascus barrels. If not, just say so and I won't contribute further...Bob Chambers

Robert: By profession and calling, my duty and responsibility is to seek the truth. ANY 'truth', as best we can document and understand, is a contribution to the field of knowledge. Unfortunately, in Medicine anyway, what passes as 'truth' usually changes every few years Hard to argue with copies of patents however! And your, and Pete's, contributions, and every pic posted with a different damascus pattern, have been extremely valuable.

I believe the book, Espingarda Perfeyta or The Perfect Gun, written in 1718 shows the "cone" method of making Damascus barrels. Of course, not called Damascus then. Interesting a patent for something similar over 150 years later.

Robert,

Do you have a patent number for the Selah Hiler patent? I want to read it. Rolling mills became essential for the gun industry. Curious to see if the patent talks about low / high carbon etc.

Your information is very valuable. Do not stop.

Pete

Pete,
Thanks, that means a lot more coming from top quality contributors/researchers like you and Rev. I really admire the way that Rev leaves records (picuretrail) to be added to at any time. His data collection will probably outlive all of us.
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The reason I didn't post the Hiler patent (34961)is because his patent marks the beginning of decarburized/compressed steel shotgun barrels (1869)...it would be another 20 years before the industry really began to utilize this technology. More to follow...

There seems to be several patents and many records of barrel makers in New York City in the mid to late 1800's. It must have been a sort of "hub" for barrels makers and iron workers.
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I don't know what to say exacly so again I'll just blurt it out...3 years ago, at this website, I would have been tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail for suggesting that not all damascus guns have samurai barrels (in fact relatively few)...but now that the age of ignorance has passed, I have become a fisherman of sorts. I'll explain,...for example...now that Ethan Allen's patent has been posted, I'm waiting for someone to come forward with an early Allen shotgun, where there can be no doubt that it is actually American made damascus....especially if the barrels are dovetailed together completely down the barrel...The other maker to watch for American damascus is Wesson, I suspect his barrels were sometimes American made but I have no evidence yet. Once we learn how to recognize Allen damascus, hopefully we will be able to recognize it if it appears on other guns...thanks again...Bob Chambers

Pete,
If your interested in the demise of damascus, you may want to read 1005115 (1911)...it was issued to Franz Hatlanek of Kladno Austria...Kladno is also the home of Poldi steel including "anti-corro steel" but I have not yet connected Hatlanek and Poldi except for proximity and trade. At the very least, they where competitors if not associates. My guess is that Hatlanek was an employee at/for Poldi. I'm assuming Poldi is also someones last name and not just the name of that large Austro-Hungarian steel producer located in Kladno.
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also the exclusive horse shoe nail period was 1800 - 1825, after that there were more variations to choose
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true hand hammered damascus (stub/twist/skelp/mingled), like Rigby damascus (Dublin), became economically unfeasable in the percussion era. If someone thinks they have a hammered damascus gun, it had better be percussion or a converted percussion (like Barber & Lefever)...past that, you better have documentation that shows that maker (or makers supplier) was still hammering so late. The only breech loading exceptions that I have seen had high relief Rigby damascus recievers and rolled damascus barrels. Both were Irish guns.
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True Damascus steel (capital D) better known as "wootz" actually originated in Kurdistan. At least that seems to be the general consensus. Perhaps Rev already stated that, and I'm re-hashing old ground.
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Does this BBS have a spell checker?

Is this the Allen damascus

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=73070813

HJ,
I think Bob is referring to the very early breechloading Ethan Allen shotguns(which I dont have an example of yet) that had a hinged breech cover that opened to the side and used the triggerguard (I think) like a lever to extract the cartridges.

RC - excellent research - keep going!! For sure I enjoy hearing what you find out.

Reb I knew the gun wasn't in the time frame...I just posted it because of the Damascus pattern.

This is a c. 1870 Ethan Allen-sure would be nice to know if this is British Laminated or 'home' made

I have two, and have had several other Ethan Allen trapdoor shotguns. Their Damascus varied by grade. In 1869 they offered Fine Stub Twist on their $100 gun, and Fine Laminated on their $150 gun. A special gun, not serial numbered , was made for G.H. Coates, the foreman of the Allen factory. It's barrels are marked Finest Laminated. These guns are interesting in that the bottom half of the breech of the gun, approximately 2 1/2" wide x 3" long x 1" deep, appears to be made from the same piece of "steel" as the barrels.

The Allen in Hopkins & Allen was Charles H. Allen. Hopkins & Allen was formed in 1868 in Norwich, Conn.

Ethan Allen was from Massachusetts. He was born in 1806 and died in 1871.

Firearm firms associated with Ethan Allen, from Wikipedia:
1831–1837: E. Allen (Grafton)
1837–1842: Allen & Thurber (Grafton)
1842–1847: Allen & Thurber (Norwich)
1847–1854: Allen & Thurber (Worcester)
1854–1856: Allen Thurber & Co (Worcester)
1856–1865: Allen & Wheelock (Worcester)
1865–1871: E. Allen & Company (Worcester)

Pete

1867 Bernard shotgun, decorated by Joseph Boussart from the Liege Museum of Arms

1887 Lefever with Boston damascus, from the Liege Museum of Arms

Drew,

There are a lot more of these images available on-line. Go to http://www.museedarmes.be/home.htm
Click on Catalogue
Click on Base de données du Musée d'Armes de Liège
Click on Connector
Click on Recherche en full text
enter Damas

You will get 26 items.

Pete

Reb87 has brought up a very important point. Ideally an Allen trapdoor double will surface. the words, Patented Nov. 25 1890 has been recorded on Hopkins and Allen shotguns. That date correspondes to patent 441395, issued to Martin Bye and assigned to Sullivan Forehand. Both patent and shotgun were toplevers. Allen died (1871) only 6 years after the trapdoor patent was issued. His successors , Forehand being one of them, continued on with the Worcester gun trade after his death. It would be very hard to concieve that Forehand and the others produced no double guns from 1871 to 1890...surely there were many, but again we are into lost chapter of American double evolution...the Worcester gun...I guess that makes all Worcester doubles suspect, especially the early toplevers (pre1890)...Wish I could be more definitive but I never got around to buying the book by Harold Mouillesseaux about Ethan Allen...maybe that book will yield some information or clues, if anyone has it...I'll take a picture of Torkelson damascus barrels and post it, but I think that's way too late.

You're killin' me Pete Moire, Bernard, Turc mine blanc, damas turc, Boston and a Purdey-what I wouldn't give for high resolution close up pics of those barrels!! Anyone with lots of class and money hitting the Musée d'Armes de Liège this summer?!

One of the Irish doubles with the high relief Rigby damascus recievers, that I mentioned in an earlier post, is a Joseph Harkom, 12ga, round action,front action hammergun, Jones rotary underlever, straight grip, with what looked like rolled damascus barrels to me. I think the gun now lives somewhere near Syracuse NY. So for good examples of late hand hammered Rigby damascus take a look at the Harkom rotary underlever reciever. There is little to no engraving, but instead the action is 100% high relief damascus.
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I once bought a caplock T. Mortimer, 20ga, fully engraved, str grip double, with high relief silver damascus barrels and raised proofmark silver soft plugs on top from Dutchman Woodworks for $300...I loved it for a few years and let it go for $375 to a friend from Batavia NY...wish I hadn't...I never knew much about that gun or the origin of the damascus. The main reason I bought it was because it was the only piece of silver damascus I had ever seen.

Unfortunatley, I think the Liege museum is still closed. They have been "refurbishing" it for several years.

Krupp "Nirosta" (patent 1912) is another stainless that may have originated at Poldi. At that time in the company's history, Krupp had enough money to buy anything he wanted like patents and whole armorplate companies simply for the technology.

Early on, A. Krupp's pride and joy was his huge steam hammer "Fritz". By 1864 he had 7000 men using it to make "fluss stahl" barrels amoung other things; by 1871, he had 10,000 men. When "Fritz" failed in the mid 1880's, Alfred Krupp installed a 5000-ton hydrulic press for his now 20,000-man workforce. It was no different in Liege, Gardone, Birmingham, Suhl or New Haven; the industrial revolution had hit gunmaking by the 1860s(It all started with Watt's engine in 1782 and was going "full-steam" in England by 1800). The British need us too, and came to America for mass-production rifle-making machinery from Robins and Lawrence of Windsor, Vermont and Ames Mfg. Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass. With it, they to equiped their arsenal at Enfield. There, by 1858, they were turning out 2,000 rifles a week. (Tate, 1997). Greener, himself, mentions using "17 different machines to shape stocks".

I could'nt help but think by the mid 1860's Damascus barrels were at least partially machine-made--ultimately, a dollar is a dollar; machines were cheaper and more efficient, then as now.

It still takes the touch of human hands to make a good gun, however, now as then!

Sorry for the late addition...this may help someone identify their damascus barrels maker.
.
In 1894 a British patent was issued to Eugene Joris of Fraipont Belgium, who lists himself as a "manufacturer", seeking a patent for a new metheod of manufacturing damascus tubes. He prefaces his patent by stating that "damascus tubes in use up to the present time consists in rolling the steel band into a spiral".
His new patent damascus is comprised of 16 longutudinal rods, without a mandrel, that can be welded by rolling in a press or by hand hammering.
.
the key info is that another damascus craftsmen has been identified including city of origin..the patent number is 1981, it was issued in 1894....And yes, there were still a few stragglers interested in hand hammering well into the 1890's... NOTE...Not to be confused with Belgian gunmaker Jean Joiris of Wandre Belgium...jor not joir

Rocketman,
To quote yourself "Carbon can't be mechanically driven into iron - it must "disolve" in a high heat environment."

I know what you mean, the carbon must be absorbed on a molecular level, but when you're standing there with the tongs in one hand and a hammer in the other, molecular injection is not the model the old timers had you thinkin' about. You layer and sometimes folded (rarely) the carbon (ground bone and charcoal dust) into your separate bars. After welding with heat and hammer, the single massive bar is twisted hot with borax and the remaining slag is driven out using heat and hammer.
Well at least this is the technique I was taught or maybe my perception of what I was taught.(30 yrs ago)
.
Well I could sense that you weren't buying that concept, and it's easy to see why...I'm not in disagreement with you, I just didn't want you to go away thinking that I had my ass on completely backwards...so in defense of erred (maybe) concept, I would like to post his page from a book published by Johns Hopkins University press (1960's)


Maybe you can't mechanically drive carbon into steel, but we didn't know that, so we went ahead and did it anyway...My blacksmithing experiments, unlike my case color experiments, rarely resulted in defeat. Bob Chambers
.
P.S. except for the common beginners mistake of forging the billet way too wide, I can think of no other reason to make longitudinal folds. The longitudinal folding technique allows the smith to concentrate the high carbon area at the cutting edge of the blade (in the crease). Wrong or right, that was the idea. Keep in mind that I learned farm implement smithing, the only kind still in existence in these parts. 100+ years ago, this technique was used when making implement blades out of regular mild steel. Nowadays most steel choppers just run over the cutting edge with some hardface welding rod and grind it sharp, the technology has changed, but the idea is the same.

RC - I have no issue with what you do/did at the forge, only how you describe it. To be effective, the carbon must be exposed to the steel at high enough temperature to chemically combine. By repeated heating, folding, and hammering, you "kneeded" the steel much as one "kneeds" bread dough to mix in a little extra flour. By making the steel flow in the heating, hammering, and welding steps, you exposed a lot of new surfaces to the extra carbon you added. This increased the amount of steel exposed to extra carbon and allowed for a much more uniform alloy. A ten pound bar of iron would need less than a tenth of a pound of carbon added (absorbed) to become a serious high carbon alloy. The trick is, of course, to carbon without burning out the carbon in the surfaces exposed to air.

I have no reservations as to admiration of blacksmithing skills.

Thanks, I knew we were on the same page. I was thinkin'...that you were thinkin'...that I wasted all that time, barkin' up the wrong tree, rather than teaching myself damascus steel making.
.
Did you see that new damascus solid rods are available as raw material for gun barrels and jewelry manufacture(?) directly bubble wrapped from Bombay, India? Some say wootz originially came from India. I've also heard or read Sri Lanca (Ceylon), Kurdistan, Persia, Assyria (nearby to Damascus City), and even Sweden. Is Kurdistan the general consensus?

I doubt there is any hope of proving where Wootz originalted. It would have been widely traded as it was highly desirable stuff.

I'd bet on the re-emergence of barrel damascus - only highly automated.

Verhoeven seems to think Wootz originated in S. India
http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf

Well most scholars from India agree: http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~wootz/eritage/WOOTZ.htm
http://metalrg.iisc.ernet.in/~wootz/heritage/Ind-heritage.html

I have a couple of books on damascus and it's history, all point to India as the primary source. Rocketman is correct. This was a highly valued trade item.

Hey Robert, a 14" shotgun barrel?

Pete

STILL working on the PictureTrail. Have found 3 excellent examples showing 2-, 3-, and 4-Iron Crolle patterns in which you can clearly count the number of 'scrolls' between the 'ribband' weld lines. This works fairly well in "Turkish" and "Horseshoe" Crolle patterns, not so well in others as the weld lines can be difficult to distinguish.

The 'ribband' weld lines are seen clearly in this 'Black and White' refinished Two Iron Crolle pattern. Within the weld is one 'scroll', representing one 'iron' or 'blade', and 1/2 of the adjacent 'iron' on each side. F Grade Lefever:



Three Iron Crolle has two full scrolls with a 1/2 scroll on each side. LC Smith 'Finest Damascus':



Four Iron Crolle:
Three full scrolls between two 1/2 scrolls within the ribband weld lines. Baker Presentation Grade:



Everybody see it?

Best explaination and illustrations I've ever seen. Thanks.

PeteM,
Howdah you know that's the only legnth? When I saw the part that said 51-100 employees, I figured there's probably something bigger, after all it's listed as "for the gunmaking and jewelry trade" ...sorry about the "howdah", from now on I'll leave the double entendre (no pun intended)to the other guys.

.
Rev,
It's probably pointless to say/ask...but...are you a member of the Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc? ..The reason I ask is because the editor of the the original OGCA newsletter called the "Hoss' Thief Gazette" also had a "long sufferin'" assistant editor...thought you might be related.
I second Rocketmans previous post!

Robert: I'm a KS boy, though mostly edukatd at the U. of Mo.-Columbia, and WAY down the editorial chain in this household

"Horseshoe" Damascus has been mentioned. This is Two Iron Crolle "Horseshoe" on a W.H. Baker & Co c. 1877-1880.
Note the ribband weld lines are a bit more difficult to pick out, but you can still see a more open full scroll with a 1/2 scroll on each side:

Any opinions on the rib marking and pattern on these?

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8035246

Was thinking "laminated" and "twist" were same....these certainly dont look like "twist though, so guess I was wrong?

Best,
Mark

Mark: Definitely NOT twist and, though tough to tell from the pics, those do appear to be Laminated Steel (as stamped) which are very high quality damascus barrels.

Now that Oscar is gone, does anyone do an outstanding job on Black & White?

I saw an original, mint Parker A1S Damascus with Euro type original engraving at a Portland show two years ago. Most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. I cannot imagine anyone picking fluid steel when they could have Damascus.

Pete: Please see this thread
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...age=5#Post43264
Most of the Parker fellas seem to be using Dale Edmonds.
Mike Orlen gave me Dan Morgan's contact infro:
Dan Morgan
Woodstock, VT
(802) 457-4828

Here is "London Laminated Steel" by J.P. Clabrough Bros


This one is made in Germany ??????

And American favorit The Ithaca Lewis grade 4

Casey

VERY nice Casey C. The second and third are both 'Two Iron Crolle'; a full scroll between two 1/2 scrolls within the ribband weld lines. The third has thicker lines and a more open scroll that has been called 'Horseshoe'
The beautiful Ithaca is 'Stars and Stripes' or 'American Flag Bunting'-stars within the scrolls-and I'll be adding that pic to the PictureTrail and thanks!

This is from "Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880", U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office. They are discussing barrels - Truing or Straightening of Barrels. I thought the reference to a "twisted barrel" significant.

Robert,
Look for water, railroad lines, steel producers and / or armories....

Pete

More sources of American made, hand hammered, twist/skelp barrels are...any guns made by, or with barrels made by, A V Sill of Buffalo NY, Miller brothers of Rochester NY, Losey & Lull of Mott's Corners NY. but mostly Levi Coon of Ithaca NY. The site, where in 1883, W H Baker established Baker Manufacturing>Ithaca Gun Works>Ithaca Gun Company, is a particular site on Fall Creek known as "Triphammer Falls". This site was once he site of (gun barrel maker) Levi Coon's triphammer untill about 1830. This site had been named after Conn's triphammer. By 1834, Levi had re-established himself at Mott's Corners only about 3 miles east. Coon's barrel making continued on, later to become Losey & Lull, until one by one most of their skilled employees went over to work for Baker at the very site Coon had left 50 years beforehand, Triphammer Falls. But it was not the loss of the skilled labor pool that ended Losey & Lull's barrel making business, it was Remingtons new "Cast Steel" barrels being manufactured only about 60 to the miles north.

Perhaps I pay not enough attention....where are the weld seams/lines on the "laminated" tubes? Am I just not looking hard enough or are they done by a slightly different process?

Best,
Mark

Mark: I've not been able to find anything which explains the difference between 'Laminated' and 'Crolle', but Dr Gaddy said the production method was similar. And I can't identify the ribband weld lines either- which might explain why Three Iron British Laminated Steel was the winner of the 1891 Birmingham Proof House Trial.

Glad this came up and here we go:
"Damascus or twist-steel barrels are made by layering alternate strips of steel and iron then welding them together. The strips are then twisted until they resembled a screw, three of these wound strips are then welded together, wound around a steel mandrel, then welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Laminated steel barrels are a bit different. They start with a ball of steel and iron that is then hammered into long strips and twisted, then, like their Damascus cousin, wound around a mandrel, welded and hammered into a barrel tube."
From The Shotgun Encyclopedia by John Taylor

Thanks rev.

Best,
Mark

The description the revdocdrew just gave us has only one subtile difference in it between the two kinds. Starting from a ball or starting from strips. I believe we need to see someone make some of these patterns to grasp the methods of manufacture. Thanks to all who posted here! Great subject! David

That is a very good definition. Just remember that is a gunmakers definition. A blade maker would view the "lamination" as damascus.

The gunmaker starts with a billet. This is heated, then hammered, ie forge welded.



This animation shows how a blade maker approaches it. They keep welding, drawing out and folding the billet.



Pete

Wow you guys what an amazing site, I am no good with computers so you will have to bear with me, I do not know how to add pictures but I have some that you may like on the damascus picture trail, perhaps I can send a disc to someone and they can add them for me. I am from the uk my grandfather blacked and browned gun barrels all his life like his father and grandfather before him they have done this work for over 150 years ( I am still tracing the familly tree!) they are well known for their work here, when my grandfather had the business in london they finished the barrels for all the well known makers Purdeys, Boss, Holland and Holland, Rigby etc, he started in the trade at 12 and his first job was to go around all these famous firms with a hand barrow collecting and delivering all the barrels. if you guys are interested in what happened to this gun finishing familly let me know. Also I have a set of miniature muzzle loaders that my grandfather made everything works on them, he made everything by hand including damascus barrels, there are two flintlocks and two percussion a single and double of each, I would love to put some pictures on here

barrel browner,

I just sent you and email. If you can attach the pictures to an email, I will post them here. Then they can be put up on picture trail.

Here is the FAQ on how to post pictures here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0df792#Post6339

I for one would love to hear more.

Pete

Also just sent an e-mail, and thanks Paul for your willingness to contribute! Drew

Here are barrel browner's pictures. I will let him explain them.







Pete

Beautifully re-finished Three Iron Crolle Paul-what do they call that pattern in England? Horse-shoe?

The first barrel is a blacking job using a rusting process, the second is the miniature muzzle loaders my grandfather made, he started making them in the late sixties as a hobby,the only work he did not do was the engraving that was done by Ken Hunt, I will sort out some more pics of the barrels, ( if anyone has a pair or piece of scrap Star or bernard barrels I would be interested as I have not seen these before), As I have already said my grandfathers familly were well known for there work, when he trained me he was 73 and I was 15, he passed away without writing down or telling me his secret formulas I have all the old formulas his father and grandfather had written down but he had perfected it and modernised it in the 30s but kept it all in his head! anyway the last picture is a set of three iron damascus barrels that I have done one side only showing before and after I am now forty and I want to be known for my barrel work I am not there yet but I am sure this site is going to be a great help, I would also like to say a big thankyou to the late Oscar Gaddy he was a great help to me when I started doing this work again his advice helped me recreate the old fashioned english finish

Barrel Browner,
Really super work by you and your family! Wonderful post and I hope to read and see more of your work and opinions.

Agree with Yeti!! Bring on the history, photos, and opinions. Being taught gun work by a master, as opposed to having to find it out for yourself, is an experience I'd like to hear more about. Love those minitures.

Anybody else see a damascus pattern in these?

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8056598

Best,
Mark

Excellent observation Mark (and I think we've seen those guns in another thread?)



Marked 'Laminated Steel' but certainly appears to be a 'large scroll' Crolle, but I can't discern the ribband weld lines clearly to call 2- or 3- Iron.
I'd look for Belgian proofmarks on the brls.

BTW: I've done alot of editing on the PictureTrail
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16082038

Double Gun Classics Vol 1, No. 4 & 5, 2006 has the Birmingham Proof House test as reported in The Field in 1891, with commentary by Kirk Merrington. Great reading.

Still working on getting damascus patterns identified. This large scroll Two Iron Crolle pattern might be "Boston Damascus"-anyone with a similar pattern?

Yup.....on the way. But I call that as a "one iron"........only one core( or "star" ) between the weld lines?

My example should be up tomorrow morning, #2 Flues, 1912ish, marked "LLH".

Methinks the core of the "ribband"...or is it the "skelp" appears as a star, or cross...as it would be the least likely to twist and give a pattern during the whole twisting and forging process.

Hence the dense "core", with less figure.....but the radiating ends that give the "croll"

Some of the other examples offered up would support this, no?

Best,
Mark

In reference to Rev's most recent photo...above

Please, could someone explain how the crosses can go from black to white...so close on the skelp?...

what seems to be the most simple pattern, at first glance, now looks mystifying to me...

Are mixed crosses common, and I've just not noticed it before?

Rev, Thanks for the course in damascus barrels, will there be a written test? I feel like I should have paid tuition...well, sort of...

I am with you on that Point Robert!

My guess is the small strips that make up the bar are composed of various length "bits"...and thus vary the "bright" and "dark" stars? That, or they are slightly off center and you get the alternating pattern?

I could be way off on several levels on this....would expect it actually, but thought it would be good food for thought?

Best,
Mark

Bits...thats a good guess...but now it's everywhere...in fact I can't find one that's not mixed...even the one the picture trail "Terrell" is mixed...I have some reviewing and head scratchin' to do...my guess is wire...not only was the technology 'old hat' in Europe, so late in the industrial revolution, but wire can be intracately woven, drawn, twisted, welded, and flattened into a skelp...it can be so intracately woven, that you could write a name like Terrell, but the diameter of the wire billet would be so large, that it may have been drawn through a series of rollers into a long wire, before being flattened into a skelp...it's always been my guess for the other lettered barrels (Prince Albert or the word REMINGTON) ...so now my "wire" guess has broadened to include crolle...there are many other factors as to why wire technology is a strong candidate for reverse engineering at least one type of rolled damascus barrels...

Once again, the more the think you know, the less you really do!

Mark: the pattern certainly looks like two 1/2 scrolls between each ribband weld BUT Dr Gaddy's One Iron example seems to show one 'smashed and smudged' full scroll between the weld lines



On the ? Boston pattern, I'm calling the round and symmetric scroll as the center, with two 1/2 scrolls on each side (that don't form another round scroll) =Two Iron.

And re: the 'stars' between the scrolls, you can identify some that are 1/2 black (iron) and 1/2 white (steel)! Since we're looking end-on at the twisted billet of alternating iron and steel, the size of the 'star' depends on how small and tightly wound the rod was. And it seems the higher quality Crolle has smaller scrolls and 'stars' between them. And the color of the star depends on which tiny rod within the billet happened to be on the outside of that twist? Please tell me that makes sense

And I just read in a Double Gun Classics e-zine that Daniel Wesson is reported to have ordered 400 sets of barrels from a Belgian source, 200 of which had "Wesson" spelled out in the damascus pattern. Has anyone seen one?

This Two Iron Crolle also appears to have a indistinct weld line down the middle of each scroll, though the ribband weld is more obvious

Here are the brls on the c. 1890s Greener at Cabelas which is being discussed on another thread



Much less symmetric and 'more open' scroll pattern but with the same weld line in the middle of each scroll. I believe this is also Two Iron crolle and both white and black 'crosses' can be seen (it helps to 'zoom' the pic.)

Yet another Baker. This one is at Cabelas.



Pete

That's an interesting one Pete and may be "Twist Damascus", laminated One Iron Crolle and Twist.

Gloria a Dios, good things come from persistance
Now we have an explanation for 'Laminated Steel', and much more!

http://books.google.com/books?id=-QUtAAA...I6tLQ#PPA160,M1

Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904 "Gun and Small-Arms Factories" by A.E. Patrick, p. 149-175
From 'Gun Barrels' starting on p. 159:

The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal for the old-fashioned laminated steel barrels, a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed. They were then cut into pieces of the same size, melted together, gathered into a bloom, and the mass placed under a tilt hammer, welded into a block of iron which was immediately rolled into bars. The bars were then cut into regular lengths, and the required quantity laid together and fastened into a faggot, this faggot was again heated in the furnace and hammered and rolled into rods of the size required by the barrel welders. The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores. The iron is made into rods, and subjected to hammering and rolling, which condenses the metal and increases the ductility and tenacity by elongating and densifying the fibres. The faggots are heated and welded seven times during the process of manufacture of the best barrel metal. The iron for the manufacture of gun barrels is made in square rods of various thicknesses for the best barrels, and in flat rods for plain twist or scelp barrels. To give the Damascus figure the square rods are first twisted, the operation being carefully overlooked to guard against one portion being twisted more rapidly than the other. This process is repeated until the rod is perfectly twisted and a regular figure in the barrel insured. It is this twisting of the rods that makes the difference between a best barrel and a common one. All Damascus barrels must be made of twisted rods. Plain twist or scelp barrels are made from plain straight rods or ribands. It is the twist in the rods that cause the figure to appear in the barrels and all iron so twisted is called "Damascus," from the town Damascus, where a similar process was first practised for the far-famed Damascus sword blades. The prepared rod is either joined to other rods or coiled and welded into a barrel singly. Damascus barrels are made from one, two, or three twisted rods, and occasionally the Continental makers use four to six rods together. The Damascus barrels, as made in England, are usually manufactured from three twisted rods, which is quite sufficient to form a very fine figure in the barrel. Laminated steel barrels are twisted and the rods welded in the same manner as the Damascus, but the rods are composed of superiour metal containing a larger percentage of steel. The rods having been twisted and the required number welded together, they are then rolled at a red heat into ribands. The ribands are then twisted into spiral form, again heated, and the coil well hammered until thoroughly welded. The proportionate amounts of the different descriptions of metal in a barrel determine its quality. Best English Damascus and modern laminated steel contain 60 per cont. of steel. The amount of steel is determined upon before making the metal into faggots for the last time. If for scelp barrels, the strips of iron are twice the thickness of the steel, the faggots being formed of alternate layers of iron and steel. In single iron Damascus barrels the proportion of iron is not much less than the steel, and although not passing through so many processes as the best barrels, is still far superiour in quality to ordinary iron. In twisting the rods every care is taken to keep the edges of the iron and steel strips to the outside, for it is the twisting of the different metals that gives the various figures in the finished barrel. The steel being hard, resists the acids employed in the browning process and retains a white or light brown hue, whilst the iron, or softer metal, is so acted upon by the acid as to be changed into a dark brown or black colour. There is nothing in the process calling for any particular notice as far as fire risk is concerned. If in a suitable building there is no more risk than in a smithy, and in the whole course of my insurance experience I can only remember having one claim for a smithy being destroyed.

The Birmingham Proof House Test of 1891

As published in The Field, and reproduced in Double Gun Classics http://www.doublegunclassics.com/alt/DGCJanFeb06.pdf

The strongest of 39 barrel steels tested were:
1. English machine forged 3 rod Laminated steel
2. English fluid compressed steel, Whitworth process (fluid steel)
3. English machine forged 2 rod Best Damascus
4. English steel Siemens - Martin process (fluid steel)
5. English hand forged 4 rod Best Damascus
6. English machine forged 2 rod variegated Damascus
7. English machine forged 3 rod Best Damascus
8. English carburised steel, Darby’s method
9. English machine forged 2 rod Laminated steel
10. English “Superior Barrel Steel”
11. English machine forged chequered 3 rod Damascus
12. Foreign steel, Siemens – Martin process
13. English steel, hematite process, from pig and scrap

18. Foreign “Pointille’” Twist

24 & 25. Foreign 3 rod and 4 rod “Crolle’”
26. English machine forged 4 rod “Boston” Damascus

32. English machine forged 2 rod “Boston” Damascus

OK, now it is obvious that there is a difference between twist and laminated. I have been grouping the two together as if they were more or less the same. It is apparent from the above excerpt that there is a big difference. How can you tell them apart?

Twist



Laminated

How do you tell the differnce between #1 and #9 Laminated Steel ?

I see the two barrels that came in last were named "Boston" Damascus...You think it was named "Boston" Damascus because it was heading across the Atlantic ?

Joe: this is a Baker Batavia with what I believe to be "Boston" damascus; large round symmetric scrolls



And yes, the Belgian dealers gave their patterns "American" names: Boston, Oxford, American Flag, American Flag Bunting, Washington, etc. for the U.S. market
And I haven't figured out how to 'read' laminate yet

Names for Boston in Lincolnshire more likely.

jack

Jack:
Claude Gaier's Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking sheds some light on the connection between US and Belgian firms. Ernest Heuse-Lemoine (1834-1926) from Nessonvaux was a major force in the Vesdre Valley for barrel making. He maintained agents in London, Birmingham, and New York and his firm supplied the Belgian royal court. Every 3 years he would travel abroad and upon his return, would be met by a band in celebration because he always came back with more work orders than his own firm could handle. He would then distribute some of the work to smaller barrel makers in the Vesdre. Gaier states that Heuse-Lemoine supplied damascus barrels for at least 50 years to US makers, and that he invented the names of "Boston" and "Washington" damascus especially for the American market.

Boston didn't come in last, it was included in the top 30 best steels for barrels. There were lots of others of less value. Note that none of the twist types are listed, nor are steel skelp formed barrels steels.

From The Gun and Its Development, W.W. Greener, 8th edition, 1907

The word laminated, as the designation of a gun barrel, arose from the fact that…thin strips, plates, or laminae of steel, piled alternately with iron plates, formed the composite metal. They differ from Damascus in so far as the iron and steel are differently arranged in the pile, so that instead of a decided curl in the figure there is only what may be termed “herring-bone” lines running spirally round the barrel from end to end.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA224&dq=%22laminated+steel%22#PPA225,M1

I finally got around to Charles Semmer's wonderful Remington Double Shotguns, and have made some progress on the different patterns and sources of Remington's damascus barrels. Nothing definitive but at least some clues
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17067005

Hey Drew,

Nice synopsis. Normally I would have doubts about Pieper as a source. However, Pieper and Remington seemed to have a special relationship. He was licensed to produce several of their guns. He also seemed to have a special relationship with Colt. Some of the Bayard pistols are direct Colt imitations. They may have felt an affinity for his company. He did model it heavily on what he observed during the American Civil War. In particular the reliance on mechanization for manufacturing.

I finally obtained a copy of "Bayard Les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie 1859-1957" par Michel Druart. It is ok. Unfortunately he attempted such a broad survey of Pieper's life, career and legacy that many things are just not mentioned.

Pete

Well, I've found out some more stuff so did a bit of editing, so here it is:

Named patterns used by Remington
London (Stub Twist), Twist, Laminated, Boston N. (Horse-shoe pattern), Boston 2 S.J. (large scroll 2 Iron Crolle), Oxford 2 & 4 S.J. (smaller scroll 3 Iron Crolle in several different patterns), Chain J, Etoile 3. B.P., Legia P. (Herring-bone pattern), Washington N 3. B.P. ("Stars & Stripes" or "American Flag Bunting"), Chine P ('mottled'), Ohonon 6 S.T. (similar to Bernard I), and Pieper P.
The Remington Damascus salesman's sample rod is shown on p. 275 of Charles Semmer's Remington Double Shotguns.

The significance of 'S.J.' (Boston 2 and Oxford 2 & 4) is uncertain, but could be Simonis-Janssen http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...moulin%20gb.htm
'J' could also be one of the Janssen families http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20janssen%20gb.htm
The meaning of 'B.P.' (Washington N and Etoile) is unclear.
Claude Gaier's Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking states that Ernest Heuse-Lemoine of Nessonvaux named both "Washington" and "Boston" patterns for the US market. http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20gb.htm
Boston N. and Boston 2 first appear on the Model 1878. Boston and Washington patterns are also found on Baker and Ithaca guns.

Damascus barrels with possible Belgian maker's marks include 'HP', frequently found on Oxford 4, likely Henri Pieper http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20en%20tete%20gb.htm Oxford patterns are used from the Model 1876 to the 1900 KED.
An Etoile pattern 1894 Pigeon has a fused 'JP', possibly the mark of J. Pire & Cie, a large munitions firm established in Liege in 1885 http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pire%20gb.htm

Remington graded the damascus barrels on Model 1894 guns as follows:
A Grade: "Two stripe Damascus" (Boston)
B Grade: "Three stripe Damascus" (Oxford and Chain J)
C Grade: "Finer Damascus" (Etoile and Washington)
D Grade: "Very fine (Four stripe) Damascus" (Chine and Ohonon)
E Grade: "Finest Damascus" (Peiper and Legia)

The Model 1900 was offered with Remington steel (K) or Two stripe Damascus (KD).

The following are taken from the Beretta Catalog #46, 1910. It is simply a list of the types of damascus and steel listed as available in the catalog. Still working on some descriptive phrases that don't translate very well. These are in no particular order.

Types of Damascus
London
Boston
Pearl
Bernard
Turkish
Crolle
Star
Robinson
Oxford
Thonon
Chain
Japanese
Washington
Bresciano

Types of Steel
fine steel
superior steel
english steel
Mannesmann
Wetterly
Krupp
Baiardo
Cockerill
Siemens Martin

Pete

What a find Pete! If anyone out there has a damascus barrel Beretta PLEASE post high resolution close up pics, or send to me by jpg attachement at revdoc2@cox.net and I'll post. Thanks!
And I wonder if the Beretta 'Thonon' is the same pattern as the Remington 'Ohonon 6 S.T.'

Well, Thonon-les-Bains (Thonon-the-Baths) is a town in France. As best as I can make out, ohonon is a Welsh word. None of online dictionaries will translate it though.

The pattern I would like to see is what Beretta called Japanese.

If you have on the early Beretta guns, 1900-ish or earlier, please do post an image.

Pete

Yeah-I tried that too Pete. Wish I was a better linguist (and will be back in Guatemala in 3 wks with Spanish skills barely adequate to find el bano With the current C.A. weather, I better figure out how to say 'flood', 'mudslide', and 'Please save me, I'm drowning')
The Remington "Chine P" pattern could be either 'China' or 'mottled' (which is what it looks like.) Would love to be able to compare that to the Beretta 'Japanese.' You know there had to once be a 'Salesman's Damascus Sample' like Remington's.

OK, some more suppliers, info.

Found on Lefever damascus barrels, ADH.
ADH was the trade mark of Delvaux-Heuse. This was a joint venture between two powerful companies. Jacques Delvaux and Heuse held a joint patent for the making of damascus, circa 1892.

Thonon
There were at least 20 different Belgian companies that operated under the name Thonon. It was in use from approximately 1836 to 1941. At least one, Fernand Thonon, was the proud distributor of arms to courts of Italy and the court of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

So, I think it might be safe to assume that the Beretta catalog reference to Thonon damascus was produced by Fernand Thonon & Co.

Pete

Well done Pete! I'll get that infro added to the PictureTrail albums.
Bruno's book is to arrive from England next week (of course the book will be on our porch and I'll be in Guatemala )

Tuesday Oct 9 at 8pm PBS will air a Nova episode titled "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" in which the trailer hints at using modern technology to unravel the mystery of the steel......there is enough similarities between samurai sword steel and damascus, that surely we will all learn something applicable.

here is the trailer link http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/preview/w_3412_220.html

here is the PBS link
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/samurai/

There should be some new understanding as the result of bringing the latest scientific testing to bear...

Robert,

Sounds interesting. I am currently working on a lead from my readings. Gaier believes that 1683 is a key date in the development of European damascus development for gun barrels. The defeat of Kara Mustafa Pasha by Jan III Sobieski at Vienna was a winfall for European gunsmiths. Suddenly thousands of damascus barreled guns could be examined.

He intimates that while the crusades had made Europe aware of damascus blades, it was the defeat of the Ottoman army that advanced damascus barrel technology used in shoulder arms for Europe. This technology was refined by Europeans to reach it's zenith in the 19th century.

Pete

Great history lesson but really doesn't have much to do with the Sporting gun.

So don't watch it, you racist dog...in fact, please don't respond to my postings ever again...I promice to do the same...remember?

The Japanese development is important. They only had Akome iron sand instead of the standard iron ore. Yet because of the ama-no-habuki bellows, which unlike western bellows, allow more oxygen, thus a hotter forge. They were able to reduce the impurities and became masters at controlling the hardness of the metal.

There is much theorizing today that wootz steel was dependent on impurities found in the local ore scource.

The fall of Vienna was a waterfall event for European gun makers. Eventually all military technology finds it's way into the private sector.

Pete

"Racist dOg"...

What nut hOuse are you typing from ?

I guess Robert Chambers got back on his medication.

Must be in Robert's Pavlovian doghouse again, eh j0j0 d0g!

I have enjoyed your prevocative posts and your bashing of each other but I think you should be picking on each other and leave the other board members out of it, especially the ones who don't enjoy your special kind of fun.

See ya, off to Pintail Point now.

I can't get this poster to stay away from my posts...in the past he has elevated threads to racial hatred...I thought we had agreed to not communicate any further, but he has forgotton...

Now Lowell has chimed in on the damascus thread, again, without any information to offer that may advance everyones understanding of the subject being discussed.

Lowell and homeless have once again began posting without anything constructive to offer...these two individuals are the the reason many timid (yet knowledgeable) contributors will not add to the threads. On past threads, some have suggested the Lowell has been banished from other bullitin systems for this very reason. How many members have to flag his vicious postings before the site administrator takes notice and banishes him as well. Now he's training homeless joe to be the same. Lowell Glenthorne has done more damage to this bullitin system than can be counted...I will not be intimidated by this bully...or his sidekick homeless joe...

Lowell and joe...how dare you muck up this thread...I will meet you on another thread to address all your damaging postings.

I have never found anything offensive, or otherwise, in Mr. Glenthorne's posts.

Pete M's previous post:
"Gaier believes that 1683 is a key date in the development of European damascus gun barrels. The defeat of Kara Mustafa Pasha by Jan III Sobieski at Vienna was a winfall for European gunsmiths. Suddenly thousands of damascus barreled guns could be examined."

This COULD be a foundational observation as to 1. how damascus made it to Europe and 2. why 'pattern welded' iron/steel barrels were developed in the first place.
Islam forbids the depiction of Allah or Muhammed, and the creative/artistic efforts of the different Islamic people groups were focused on Calligraphy and Architecture. There are 6 major script patterns, called Shish Qalam in Persian and Turkish.
These sites are helpful:
http://www.islamicart.com/main/calligraphy/index.html
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Calligraphy/Islam_Arabic_Calligraphy.html

This is Farsi script called Ta'liq and popular among Persians, Turks, Arabs, and Moslim Indians. The repetitive pattern of swirls is similar to 'Turkish' crolle.



This is Naskh script which is somewhat like 'Horse-shoe' crolle.



Could damascus have originally been inspired by 'Wootz/Crucible' steel (which is NOT pattern welded) and made in an attempt to reproduce Islamic Calligraphic patterns?!?

Found another 'crolle' pattern at http://calligraphyislamic.com/gallery.html

I fail to see the connection between Islam and Fine Damascus gun barrels....truth is I don't want or care to see it.

Great new PictureTrail courtesy of Tom Flanigan showing the step-by-step refinish process!
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17977891

revdocdrew:

Excellent and informative posts. Do any blades exist that resemble Arabic(or the correct name for the language) words?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think to look for Arabic in the patterns would not result in a typical barrel or blade. To look at a culture's sense of art and decoration as it was carried from one media to another makes a lot of sense. "We" have been decorating hunting weapons for thousands of years. The British engraving of the 1800's was flowing from the Victorian "culture". It is what appealed to them. In the same way, the blades and barrels of the Ottoman empire were decorated in a manner that flowed from their culture.

I remember Oscar once referenced Leo S. Figiel, "On Damascus Steel". So at the time, I purchased a copy. I read through it and put it away. I recently picked it up again. Figiel spends the majority of the book dealing with blades. Only the last chapter really digs into barrel making. A lot of the examples are styles of mechanical damascus that were never copied in western Europe. ( I do wish I had written down all the sources Oscar mentioned.... )

Put succinctly, neither crucible nor mechanical damascus were a European invention. The technology did not suddenly appear and then just disappear. There is a lot of history and cultural intercourse occurring to produce even simple damascus shotgun barrels.

In understanding how it all came about, the contribution of each culture along the way and how it eventually ended, we learn.

Some people are only interested to know where those damascus barrels on their what ever shotgun came from. That is fine. A subset of all this has been to identify Belgian makers and understand the commerce that occurred. As tariffs were raised in the US, the Belgians responded with product that met the need and the price. The flip of this seems to be that some English firms went out of business because they could not compete with the Belgian labor rates (still working this piece).

A bit of trivia...Liege was under siege in the 1300's. It eventually fell. It is the 1st known use of hand canons during a siege. Liege was important because of it's long tradition as a center for bladed weapons.

I know how often I have dismissed the damascus blade as a dead end when researching damascus barrels. But I think, in a small way, I am beginning to understand why Oscar considered Figiel important. The blade evolved from crucible (or bloom) to mechanical damascus. The damascus blade was a necessary step to the damascus barrel.

Pete

So you philistines are not impressed with the possible calligraphy connection
HOW ABOUT ORIENTAL RUGS??
Infro on common patterns found here
http://www.oldcarpet.com/rug_glossary.htm

This from http://www.pandiths.com/designs.htm and is an Ispahan pattern



Somewhat like an open pattern 'Stars and Stripes' or 'American Flag Bunting' courtesy of Ross Berck



This symmetrical circular pattern is from Konya, Turkey
http://mathforum.org/geometry/rugs/gallery/10.html



Two Iron "Boston"



Could the damascus pattern have started simply as ornamentaion/artistic design and (surprise!) was found to have superior metallurgical properties??

Pete M directed me to the Oriental Arms site
http://www.oriental-arms.com/index.php

Here is an excellent example of Wootz steel (which is NOT pattern welded and discussed way back in this thread)
Asadullah Blade, Persian Safavid Period



This Persian Jambiya dagger has a 'Horse-shoe' design on the scabbard



Anybody out there buying this?

I'm buying exactly this much of it. If steel is difficult to make in large quantities you combine it with something more readily available. Quite common for even late 19th C. plane irons to be a laminate of steel and soft iron--the iron for the body, the steel for the edge keeping. Also, there are dozens of traditional constuction techniques that rely on the repetitive iteration of weaving, lacing, cross-battening. Planked boats and stick-built houses, baskets, wattle fences, cane weaving, crochet, macrame, all follow this model. You may be able to spill bore a barrel but it's easier if there's already a piercing from the mandrel it's struck on. Big machine tools indulge the modern urge to hog everything out of the solid. Surface appearance is probably incidental initially but is made into a "trademark" art. Wow, look at what we get when we twist it this way with this many elements. I imagine the barrel makers understood hoop strength and how to attain it. If their product had a distinctive look that tied it to their manufactory, so much the better.

jack

Drew-

Allow me to be among your first customers, I am sold. In fact I would be surprised if there was no connection between damascus and the Indo Persian and/or Islamic Arab cultures.

It would surprise many to learn that Western culture owes a great and long unacknowledged debt to the Indo Persian culture and the later Islamic Arab culture. Without Arab scholars and libraries much of the ancient Greek and Roman knowledge which now forms the basis for many of our laws and much of culture would have been lost forever had we not "re-discovered it".

It would also surprise many to learn that English is an Indo European language or to learn that "Arian" as a regional designation, is in fact "Iran." The similarity in the two words is not co-incidental. Speaking of words; in Farsi the word for father is "padar", mother "madar", brother "baridar", and the word for right "rost" to mention only a few. Familial and common words tend to evolve less over time.

People, ideas and technology moved around back then, only more slowly. As I am sure you will note, one only has to look to the Bible to see how Paul and the early church managed to move around.

While on the subject of common ground, Jews, Christians and Moslems all worship the God of Abraham. That Catholics and Protestants have killed each other for years over real and imagined difference "worth dying over", it really should come as no surprise to anyone that greater differences (those between these three major religions) have proven fuel enough for senseless killing. Passions are high this day and age, but it should not blind the pursuit of truth in any forum.

Doug

Revdocdrew:

I'll subscribe and purchase a bushel. Nice link and even more food for thought.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

yOu can have my bushel...

Joe doesn't mind the Arabic numerals. And I don't mind the concept of predecessors, influences, borrowings. I'm sure it was Money See, Monkey Buy, Monkey Copy on all the trade routes. So long as you don't attribute a strong consciousness of the historic lineage to the rank and file, I don't see a problem. So some Templar Knight liked his booty so much he got somebody to copy it and it stuck as the fashion. I'm not too happy looking for specific carpet patterns which suggest specific barrel patterns. Most people take the ball and run with it. If they slavishly copy, they're usually copying the ball that Dad ran with. Clearly the survival of the name Damascus is a pointer to the geographical origins of ferric composites.

jack

Then again maybe Jack is right
Since "God hath made all men of one blood", all people groups likely have a shared creative/artistic nature, which will manifest itself with shared images and patterns within a unique cultural context. The swastika is widely used in Eastern religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, AND by the Navajo Nation.
Sure is fun to think about though!
BTW: as Doug said, western Europe was in the middle of the 'Dark Ages' when the Indo Persians figured out how to make steel. And the Philistines gave iron to the Hebrew people about 1000 BC.

Damascus steel and oriental rugs! Where's Larry Barnes when you need him? Larry, who has passed, was an early writer for the DGJ, whose passion was damascus doubles and oriental rugs. I'm sure he would have had something to say on this aspect.

All men stand on the shoulders of their predecessors even if most of the descendents are organized to fight like cats and dogs. There are universals but what we share in common so frequently gets in the way of a good solid foundation of misunderstanding, villification, and of course the getting of the daily bread that we don't like to admit that anyone else had a better idea, leave alone a civilization. We are all Yahoos but only me and mine are The People.

jack

We might owe the Chinese for the earliest Damascus they were forging steel blades in the 4th and 5th century and had the best steels. Japan was the country that took it and refined it. During the Heian period(794-1185) the japanese made great progress improving the imported steelworking techniques. It was in the Kamakura period (11858-3333) that they refined the technique of using high carbon steel folded over low carbon steel to make steel of great strength. The first damascus was designed for strength not beauty. The Japanese steel was folded into a very fine grain,i have never seen any that was twisted. I believe twisting it for designs was most likely a European invention, don't realy know.
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W.W. Greener in "Modern Breech-Loaders" states on p. 101 that "Barrels were first grooved or rifled at Vienna, about the year 1498." Coupled with p. 77-78, "Mr. Hallam, referring to the authority of an Arabic author, infers that there is no question that the knowledge of gunpower was introduced into Europe through the meands of Saracens, before the middle of the thirteenth century; and no doubt its use then was more for fireworks than as an artilierist projectile force. There is good evidence, too, that the use of gunpowder was introduced into Spain by the Moors." And what kind of folk were the Moors? Anyway, if they rifiling to prevent fouling and using gunpower as an accelerate in the later part of the 15th century, then what type barrel were they utilizing?

" Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

“Something has been said about the chemical excellence of cast iron in ancient India, and about the high industrial development of the Gupta times, when India was looked to, even by Imperial Rome, as the most skilled of the nations in such chemical industries as dyeing, tanning, soap-making, glass and cement... By the sixth century the Hindus were far ahead of Europe in industrial chemistry; they were masters of calcinations, distillation, sublimation, steaming, fixation, the production of light without heat, the mixing of anesthetic and soporific powders, and the preparation of metallic salts, compounds and alloys. The tempering of steel was brought in ancient India to a perfection unknown in Europe till our own times; King Porus is said to have selected, as a specially valuable gift from Alexander*, not gold or silver, but thirty pounds of steel. The Moslems took much of this Hindu chemical science and industry to the Near East and Europe; the secret of manufacturing "Damascus" blades, for example, was taken by the Arabs from the Persians**, and by the Persians from India.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

Note to put this into historical perspective
*Alexander lived from 356-323 BC
** The conquest of Persia was 633-651 AD

I'm sure something can be said for allot of different cultures beating on a piece of Iron....
When we talk gun barrels it's the English barrel makers that took the art of Damascus gun barrel making to it's highest form.

All before were just stepping stones....did I tell you guys I saved money on my car insurance.



I bought a flying carpet....with a crOil pattern.

Great stuff guys.
M. Sache in "Damascus Steel, Myth, History, Technology Applications" states that BOTH pattern-welded Damascus AND wootz Damascus blades were first produced around 500 A.D.
In terms of shotgun barrels, it's going to be very important that we don't mix blade production techniques (folding laminates) with damascus barrel techniques (twisting laminates and welding the ribband edges.)

per http://www.memagazine.org/may07/features/straight/straight.html
the English were first introduced to the 'hand cannon' in 1429 at the siege of Orleans.

I'm going to go ahead and re-post some links for infro on Wootz steel, the first by a damascus expert at Iowa State:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html
Looks like it's vanadium and molybdenum that cause the damascene appearance of Wootz
http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf
http://www.brisa.fi/wootz3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

Homeless:

You have made a funny that made me chuckle. I will be in Memphis at St. Jude in a week and I might just look you up to give you something.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

dbadcraig:

I usually don't trust web sources without a text, but that is interesting. So, would you say that cast iron barrels were being rifled in Vienna late in the 15th century?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

jOe: you'd probably get some argument from Rene Leclerc and Leopold Bernard (1832-1867) who were canoniers and barrel makers in Paris. Bernard's company manufactured firearms and finest damascus barrels until 1890.

And here is a section of a book discussing cast iron cannon barrel and damascus gun barrel production. It states that damascus gun barrels were being produced in Turkey by the late 1500s
http://books.google.com/books?id=X7e8rHL...hZJqJw#PPA80,M1

Drew-

Agreed, but don't you think the material iron/steel in question and concepts for working the materials are most likely related? It would stand to reason early barrel makers were drawn from the ranks of those who had access to and were schooled and skilled in working in those particular materials. This may have also formed the basis for the common esthetic you noted in your earlier posts.

While blades may be folded and barrels twisted, lamination is the common technique and one that would appear to have originated hundreds of years before damascus shotgun barrel production.

Doug

And here i thought you switched to Geico.

Certainly Doug. However, my increasingly squishy brain needs to focus on one issue at a time in order to understand it

Raimey-

I have my BA in History and have been a practicing attorney many years (and outside of the Bible, which is another topic as this involves faith) I wouldn't trust any single source of information for anything!

However, the materials I quoted rang true with my schooling, which is why I selected that quoted material.

As for who was rifling what in Vienna, I will leave that for someone else to tackle.

Doug

revdocdrew:

Once again, nice post. And look in that we have come full circle and are importing scatterguns from Turkey, the once region of sought after barrels, once again.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

dbadcraig:

I don't dispute it at all. I have had the pleasure of being crossexamined by several of your profession and know that you wouldn't ask a question(or make a statement) to which you don't already know the answer. Thanks again.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The German blade smiths have done a lot of study into the history and making of damascus. While we currently seem to be lacking extentive documentation, there had to be German barrel makers producing damascus tubes.

For some interesting reading:
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/articles/serpent/serpent.html
also
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_1.html

This is a close up of a pattern welded spearhead circa 800 AD


A blade with pattern welding, circa 1700-1800


Another good source for following the middle eastern theme is Robert Elgood, "Firearms of the Islamic World: in the Tared Rajab Museum, Kuwait". The Victoria and Albert Museum in England have held exhibits of oriental, Persian, Indian, Ottoman firearms. Some are exquisite examples of pattern welded damascus. This same museum has a large collection of iron work from around the world.

I remember Oscar mentioning the importance of blacksmiths working with structural and decorative iron. The source was one he uncovered at the university library. I tried to obtain a copy and was stumped. I spoke to him on the phone about it and he just laughed. The "book" was an old doctoral thesis on file there. I guess it helps to be a university professor.

Pete

That bottom one has the same pattern as my Oriental rug.....I can see it now.

In 1810 the Maharaja flew to England on his Magic carpet to meet the best gun maker in England....
Joseph Manton along with the young Purdey and Boss were so inspired by the beautiful pattern on his Magic carpet that they decided to use it in the pattern of their Damascus shotgun barrels.


I'll take tWo bushels.

....likely not too far from the truth, except the magic carpets were sail, then later steam!

The cultural and economic exchange was going on through the East India Company starting in the 1600s. For centuries, England being an island nation of sea faring traders had unrivaled access to world markets.

No doubt commerce, particularly with the older civilizations such as India included the exchanges of ideas and technology not just raw materials.

Even without the possible technological underpinnings, "British Orientalism" and the oriental esthetic may have influenced the barrel patterns. During the time-frame in question (circa 1800s), oriental themes and tastes (e.g., carpets, tea and fine china) were high fashion.

Doug

Only having a MA in American political history, I don't know a lot about the "ancient" world but I'd bet the fascination with Chinoisserie is a late development in cultural and technological co-optation. Think the Crusades and the caravan routes provided the big chances for window shopping the East. BICBW.

jack

Someone please save me from myself

'Crolle' pattern Mina Khani design in rugs from Bijar, Baluch, and Ferahan
http://www.oldcarpet.com/rug_glossary.htm



Bakhshaish from Iranian Azerbaijan



Similar to 'Rose Pattern' Bernard II

There was a good show on the History channel tonight.

Sorry Joe, missed it, what was it? Big black tie affair; 40th anniv. of the Brandywine Conservancy. Wore my fifty year old double-breasted wool tux, my Brandywine river-rat pin (which is also old news locally) and the shoes I got married in 35 years ago. I looked gooood and I'll bet I was more comfortable than the guys in polyester. The parking varlet couldn't go get my truck because of the standard trans. Maybe I am a conservative? Or out of date?

jack

It was the history of cycO'delic drugs.

In my opinion, this was the most informative thread in the history of the Doublegun BBS...that is until homOjoe arrived with his mispelled phychedelic drugs...
You show absolutely no respect for all the efforts of Revdocdrew and the many researchers who freely post their findings. It is threads like this that can't be found anywhere else on the web or in any book. It is EXACTY this kind of historical excellence that this system is underwritten for...and Lowell and Joe undermine everyones efforts...

So homOjoe...why aren't you over on Lowells Pendleton wardrobe thread with your psychedelic drugs and racism?...I know why...because you can do more damage here, to Rev's thread...your intentions speak louder than your misspelled words...

Robert'O I've very interested in Damascus shotgun barrels...several of the barrels he has pictured belong to me.

I'm about to get tired of you calling me a racist.

That's funny, I'm gettin' tired of you being a racist...maybe we have some common ground here...the problem is, when you TYPE overtly racist comments on the internet, not only will the stigma follow you, but everyone can pull up your old statements, incase you're in denial about the ugly crap that pours out of you personality

I might be allot of things but I'm not a racist or a "whiner"...

Robert'O...Here's one of your posts. You should go to Church this morning and ask forgivness.

Altho I am probably too hung over, this appears to be a glaring opportunity to talk to the Reverend about saving him from the rug merchants. Doc, I don't have a bit of problem with the idea that easily recognizable shapes abstracted from the world about us (stars, half-moons, flowers, vines, maybe horseshoes also)dominate the world of the "stick-built", the "pieced", and the "knotted". All these traditional processes are laborious and repetitious (following a sequence of instructions hundreds and thousands of times). You don't engage in that kind of discipline and tedium and then hide your love away by deciding that a monochromatic rug would be somehow easier because you could wear your fingers out without producing the universal references. Similarly, you'd have to be a scammer caught in a technological transition to blue over your taffy-pull barrels rather than etching up the patterns which attest to exactly what the barrels are and how constructed. The obvious quibble with the prima facie correspondance of pattern and motif between very different processes is that not all iterative processes are capable of the same subtlety of representation (a twist which will produce a vine on the surface of a gun barrel is not something I've seen). The simpler geometric abstractions (four-rayed star)can be discovered in the possible patterns of twisted steel and iron on the surface of a barrel; the sinuously "organic" as well as the geometric are possibilities in your rugs. I'd say that your rugs have a more extensive vocabulary than your barrels. What both share is a proud statement about the processes of premodern technology.

jack

I think they got the design from my Grandmothers Couch, Devan, Davenport, or Settee etc. Sorry if i misspelled any, can't remember that fur back. Some of them sure looked like Damascus. On the other hand maybe it all started in Damascus and derived it's name from place of origin. Will we ever know.
Rich

Jack That's what I was trying to say in short form...before Robert'O jerked the carpet out from under me.

I very seldom agree with Homeless jOe, but i agree
Casey

My goodness Jack- WELL WRITTEN!
(and likely correct but it's still fun to speculate )

Geez, you mean you guys can understand that jargon? I still don't think I said concisely what I meant to say, to wit, that it seems to me that "stretching" an expensive but strong and necessary material by adding a less expensive material which just happens to allow a contrasting surface appearance to be "developed" is a matter of economy of means directed at the primary end of utility (read desirable degree of hoop strength). Then the patterns would be incidental to the main achievement. I don't think the rug patterns appear in quite the same context of scarcity and technological limitation.

However, looking back at the calligraphy, I'm beginning to see in the 3-D shading the suggestions of ribbons of ink which could indeed be imagined as the spiraled irons of a damascus barrel. The sorrows of gin.

jack

Keep drinkin' Jack and you'll see it my way!
(some other non-Baptist revdoc said that! )

Good one, Doc.

I do not believe the rugs and the barrels are on a 1-1 level regarding the patterns. It is not like over laying fingerprints. I do think that a culture perceives objects and patterns and dismisses others. I think that it is worth looking at calligraphy, rugs, wrought iron, etc to better understand why a culture found one thing acceptable, another beautiful and yet another trash. I think we also learn about ourselves. Perhaps, when we look at a damascus barrel, we are not seeing it the same way the maker intended. Yet we do find it some how pleasing to eye. Certainly some of the names if not most were descriptive. Yet I fail to see the bunting or flags in the damascus.

There is the story of conquistador ships sailing into a bay. The local people looked at the ships and could not see them. The conquistadors came ashore and the local people saw them. When the Spanish pointed to their sailing ships to explain how they had arrived, suddenly the ships could be seen by every one. Such a thing was just not possible to their minds at first.

In India, sitar music, it is possible to have a beat of 102 beats per measure. Most western listeners can not hear those beats.

Pete

Pete (and others)-

Very good points. If we have the ears to hear... .
Damascus barrels are perhaps so very interesting because they stand as a testament of art, craftsmanship and technology. Often the greater the art form the more room there is for interpretation by the viewer. Sometimes in art and literature the interpretation varies greatly from the intention of the artist and often the artist wishes only to be thought provocative. If we were discussing fluid steel barrels or paper clips, most likely the discussion would have been ended long ago. I suspect the craftsmen of these damascus barrels would be flattered to know that both their genre and expressions was the present subject of discussion.


Doug

I think there's a hidden message in the Damascus pattern....for Robert'O

Doug:

But at what point did it turn from utility to art( at the stage of blades, barrels, etc.)? Or was it ever in the form of utility? We should be far enough removed in time to look beyond the conquerors and their religion to look at the byproduct of the agression as the transfer of technology. Or if it's regarding the events of today, it could be attributed to the cyclic nature of history. But at any rate as for me, revdrewdoc, Pete, dbadcraig and many other's posts has created a stir and I plan to be better informed on the topic by additional research.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"But at what point did it turn from utility to art?"

This is a great discussion, relevant to double guns, and certainly a subject of some academic interest. I'm suggesting it started the other way around; an attempt at decorative metallic art was fortuitously found to be of superior utility. Was it function following form??
Gotta be someone out there with genuine credentials that has thought about this. Will keep looking-sure glad Al Gore invented the internet! Jack: have another drink then check some of the calligraphic patterns here
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Ref3.htm

Well said Doug,
Not that I know anything about identifying American Indian artifacts, but don't ethnic anthropologists identify (say) a fragment of pottery or a rug, as being Navaho (or some other tribe), by the similarities of patterns that appear on their handmade objects? The manufacture of pottery and techniques of rug weaving are even more different than weaving rugs is to weaving damascus.
It likely that Rev's observation is appealing to my notion that at least SOME mass produced damascus was done with WOVEN and rolled wires, rather than stacked bars and straps. I'm convinced that rolled damascus was far cheaper to produce than the hand hammered older brother, and for that reason dominated the market. When somebody claims to have a hand hammered double (I call it a samurai gun) I figure it had better be percussion or earlier. except in rare cases like the Schilling that John Mann posted a photo of recently. One thing for sure, it's not beyond the realm of possibility to think that someone might carry their concept of ornamentation or weaving from one handmade object to a different medium of handmade objects. In fact it's quite plausable...(and without psychedelic drugs)
One question to ask is...does Mohammed's Ladder appear on any rugs of middle eastern origin? Personaly, I don't think the Persian or Indian blade patterns look much like the (woven) damascus crolle barrels that we are comparing them to...but the similarities between the writing and the rugs...makes me think that he's onto something worth examining.

revdocdrew:

How then can we seperate, or unwind, the utility and art, or from and function, as it is has been wound in history much to the like of unwelding a Damascus barrel or blade to see it's humble beginnings? From a technical background, I would assume(antithesis of exactitude) that art would have been applied to, derived from or composed of technical innovation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey-

Interesting inquiry and it goes to the heart of the matter. Utility and art are not mutually exclusive concepts and often in nature and in man's pursuits when form most closely follows function , even such things as soup can labels, we find what can be appreciated as art.

I am looking at my display case right now where I have among many interesting things, an old family Testament and an arrowhead. The bible is signed and dated in 1828 in what was common penmanship of the day. The arrowhead I found in our front pasture some 40 years ago when I was walking home from school one day.

Is the work of these individuals, who would hardly have considered themselves artists strictly a question of function or is there some artistry or self-expression at work in this? This is subjective; each, the common written word and the arrowhead served very utilitarian purposes, but in them, at least to my eye there is also art.

Doug

Mohammed's ladder, kirk narduban or the Ladder of the Prophet pattern from a Kurdish dagger, with several "rungs" of the ladder which are alterations in the background pattern running perpendicular to the length of the blade.
http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/patterns/pat05.html



And Raimey is likely correct.

Unless I mistake, stocks, receivers and possibly barrels have all been overlaid with carbon fiber composite. The fact that the chosen resin is transparent and the roving pattern visible IDs the material and the construction method. How many would choose such a gun based on aesthetics? OK, some of us would as the appearance attests novelty and being the first on your block etc.

It is interesting that so much of the current aesthetic limits decoration in favor of seamless, smooth all-of-a-piece surfaces--huge extrusions, acres of plate glass, undifferentiated chunks of polymer. Too bad. I've always thought that gunhammers should look like cocks or sea dragons and windoors should have many tiny bottle bottom "lights", preferably about 12 over 12.

Pete brings up the inability to see beyond your experience. Railway coaches initially looked precisely like a coach without the four but with a single "iron horse" out front.

I don't see any problem with blades being laminar and barrels not being merely laminar. If once upon a time in the west someone applied the word Damascus to a "state-of-art" technology, they were certainly paying tribute to its co-opted antecedents in furrin parts.

jack

Doug:

In your case, calligraphy was a style which was used by the esquire types, learned individuals, in the propagation of history(who belonged to who, what belonged to who and how much is who indebted to whom). In being a student of history required by my profession, I have read countless pages of documents in calligraphy and from first staring at one page for a day(much like the Spanish ships referred to in an earlier post) I am able to read it without incident. But it takes time and effort. In a short amount time in the line of history, we are at 1st paralized upon seeing the form. The Lost Lake point, or whichever it is, was a tool for survival. I have a good friend who is a napper and can make a duplicate of any point shown to him. But 1st the arrowhead was a tool. Now it is displayed as art which really depicts the lifestyle and times of the original user. And I'm not considering the jewelry and the like the Indians valued or traded.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

You lost me at widoors...are you referring to windows that are made up of spun glass centers (that kinda resemble the bottoms of coke bottles)? Those aren't bottle bottoms, those are the thick, less tranparent centers of large panes of window glass left over from tin-float glass production.

Here is the problem...we don't have that mind set anymore...years back men knew basically that carbon could be folded into the composite steel...even though the metalurical molecular absorbtion wasn't understood...it stands to reason that one fold won't do it and the more the folds, the more uniformly or thoroughly the carbon was folded in, resulting in a stronger material. The more the folds, the stronger the steel. This type of mind set travelled well...even to the cowpoke out west, buyin' a furrin gun...I believe that it was this mind set that drove barrel industry to produce finer and finer damascus.

We have such along way to go in our understanding of damascus...how are we ever going to deal with the "false gates" that were used to protect the trade secrets...

Good point, Robt. about the cheap panes in the center. I forgot or never knew. Yesterday's cheap is today's artistic. Does however make my point that the prisoners of antique fashion can not always easily distinguish conscious artistry from the residue of process. The conjecture of a wire rather than rod and strap bundle is interesting also. Would that explain the capability to "bring up" names on damascus ribs?

jack

Exactly, thank you for making the point about the name

from Doctor Drew:



That seems to set well with Robert Chambers' view of carbon absorption from the forging process. You may be right, Doc.

jack

I picked up a nice Baker B grade today at a local gunshow. It has an interesting flaw in the twist pattern. The flaw is on the flat without the serial number (bottom flat in pic across from the numeral 6 in the serial number)



Robert, you have to ignore the dissenter as he gets pleasure out of your irritation.
[18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:18-21

VERY interesting Ross, I've never seen anything like that. May I add that to the 'Damascus Repairs and Restorations' album? Thanks! Drew

I thought this section was kind of interesting on my damascus barrels, any ideas? It looks like a place where two bands may have been joined (almost like a splice in rope).

Doug: is that your Meriden? I'd like to add that also and thanks! Drew

Drew-

Yes it is, and be my guest!

Doug

Drew,
You dont ever need to ask about using anything of mine. I appreciate your work.
Ross

Doug,
That is interesting, maybe we should have a thread about flaws in damascus patterns.
Ross

Ross-

I think it is very interesting! What is also interesting is that the fore end covers this spot, so the craftsmen may have actually skillfully placed these "flaw" where they would not be seen. My barrels were likely mass-produced in Belgium, at least as mass produced as damascus could have been. Yet still show evidence of human workmanship. I actually think such "imperfections" adds to the character (and hope they are only cosmetic for the sake of my fingers as I use this shotgun quite a bit). WW Greener reported that 18 pounds of prepared gun iron were required to weld an ordinary pair of 12 gauge barrels. Of course that represented the finest English damascus barrels. I would expect that the Belgian barrels on my shotgun were manufactured with the bottom line in mind. While cosmetics were likely of secondary concern (unless the placement of the imperfection was simply by chance), perhaps cosmetics were of sufficient concern that the craftsmen placed the imperfection in a location where it would not be seen.

Also, on my barrels in this spot you can see what appears to be the wire stub ends as the dots.

Doug

Mostly from English sources... there were at least 300 heating done per tube. A set of barrels would take 3 men two working days to complete. In conversations I have had, I have "heard" a lot of speculation about auto-hammers, etc, but no one has been able to document their use by the damascus makers...

I am guessing... the small "flaw" could simply be an unevenness in the original pieces that made up the billet. A bit of iron over laps the steel where it shouldn't.

There is so much more work to do. We really have not documented, speculate yes, why it all stopped. Was it the rising labor rates, the lack of raw materials, a shift in the economy, buyers simply stopped buying damascus, people simply stopped buying doubles, take your pick....

How important was the American market? Did the tariff wars in congress have an impact on the trade? If they did and the Belgians were the winners, who lost? Was there a Spanish or Italian center for damascus barrels? Who were those makers? We see German guns with damascus tubes. Where the Germans buying the tubes or making their own damascus.

Many other questions....

Pete

Have to tuck those tails in somewhere.

jack

I think Greener mentions "auto hammers" in his book.

What's up with all those tool marks? Is this Baker some kind of "Poacher's Grade" maker?

I'm scared of patterns like that...I'm not sure if it is twist or damascus or what it is.

I do know it was at the bottom rung of Damascus barrel making....if I'm going to put my life on the line shooting a Damascus shotgun I'm going to only shoot the higher grade barrels.

Here is a selection from W.W. Greener's Modern Breech-Loaders in detailing barrel making techniques as described by W.W. Greener or his father W. Greener. I don't want to state the obvious or be redundant. So if anyone wants to see the 2 pages this text is contained within, let me know & I'll try to take a pic of it.

"The generality of barrel-makers spoil this metal by an attempt to obtain figure; for all extreme twistings in the rod depreciate the metal by separating the fibres: to borrow a simile, they obtain only an over-twisted rope. This is not only disadvantageous, but useless; for the extreme density of the metal renders the figure difficult to be shown distinctly, as acid acts upon it but slightly, and never so well as on metal fabricated from two differently constructed carbonised materials."


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I usually see worksmanship like that on cheapo Belgian or Spanish guns. That thing looks pretty crude to me. I would not shoot it either.
Let me present a quote from very well respected expert (seen references about his work on the other side of the Atlantic):
"Many US shooters are playing self-styled proof-house experts by deciding that their foreign-mde guns can withstand 'X' level of chamber pressure."
Many seem to put faith in Euro C.I.P. 65mm shells some of which can generate above 60MPa of gas pressure.

Jag,
Im not sure what you mean by crude. Someone dinged the barrel lug with a hammer or something but the Baker guns especially the early ones like mine are very well made and machined to a high standard.

reb87-

I would be proud to own that shotgun! It looks very nice to me. I am certainly no expert, but the "imperfection" or disruption of the damascus pattern on your shotgun doesn't appear to be a repair but rather a part of the manufacturing process. Like the imperfection on my Meriden, it appears to have been situated for the sake of cosmetics. If so the manufacture and assembly of these barrels was not haphazard. That may be all this is, a cosmetic. It would appear, given the location in the breach area that the craftsmen of the day considered it no serious safety defect.

I'll leave to Drew or others far more informed to discuss the use of Belgian made barrels on fine shotguns, but I suspect the list is long and includes some shotguns within the higher ranks (even some English make). No doubt the English have a well-deserved reputation for making the best barrels. I have read, however, that even some of the English makes imported damascus from Belgium.

If price is a reflection of where the Baker shotgun was placed in the pecking order, your Baker was no slouch. It was priced at $22.50 in the 1908 Sears catalog (when an LC Smith with fluid steel barrels cost $25 an Ithaca with damascus stub twist cost $24 and my Meriden hammer gun with damascus cost $13.59).

This Very Fine Four Iron Crolle is on a Baker Presentation Grade. A quite similar pattern is found on Colt 1883s, Remington 1894 D grades, and Parker DH. We know Baker obtained damascus barrels from Charles Spirlet & Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse and Colt from Plunger-Riga & Heuse-Riga Fils. Remington used several makers, mostly H. Pieper and Ernest Heuse-Lemoine of Nessonvaux. We're still working on Parker's source.

Dbad,
My guns are actually "B" grades and priced at $37.35 on your price list, obviously better than those weak fluid steel barrels on the Smith . Thanks, Ross

I stand corrected! Sorry I neglected to notice the engraving on your shotgun. Will you be shooting it? I have really enjoyed shooting mine--I have lost count of the shells so far, but I am somewhere between 750 and 1000 rounds. I never shot trap better than with the old Meriden damascus hammer gun.

Doug

PBS (at least in our area) tomorrow, Tuesday, at 8 PM EST is broadcasting an hour program on "Swords of the Samurai" showing the processes of blending iron & steel in the art of swordmaking. Should be interesting as to how it associates with Damascus barrel making.

George

Thanks for the reminder George L...it was already posted a few pages back right before Robert Chambers call me a hOmO-racist dOg.

OK all 'ye of little faith', an awareness of the connection between Islamic calligraphy, oriental rugs, and damascus does NOT require the use of hallucinogenic chemical brain enhancement
The response I received from Dennis Dodds at the International Conference On Oriental Carpets http://www.icoc-orientalrugs.org/about.shtml
"Damascus steel patterns share and extend the tradition of Islamic ornamenation. Its adaptation to designs on western weaponry is plausible, due to the popularity of adopting Eastern design elements by the West, especially during the 16-18c." He suggested a 1949 book that might have more information. The search continues!

Where'd you find that wAcko. I think he's been smoking a hemp rug.

Joe,
Is everybody here a "wacko" or "smoking hemp" or using "psychedelic drugs" or taking "medications", or just some of us? How do you determine who they are? Your system of analysis must be very sophisticated for you to be able to look into your crystal ball and see the same guy you saw doing psychedelic drugs last week has perhaps changed his M O to smoking hemp.
Why are you trying so hard to discredit everyone else? What did Rev do to you that warrants the vicious words that you level on the guy?

Robert'o I don't see where I said anything vicious "to...or about" revdocdrew.


Besides you're supposed to be ignoring me...

It doesn't matter Robert. Joe, like you and Pete, Ross, Daryl, Dave M and Dave N, Leighton and many, many others from the PGCA and LCSCA have been most generous in allowing me to share their damascus treasures.
Let me state again that I have no commercial interest in publishing the PictureTrail albums, and probably couldn't anyway because of the copyright issues. It's possible, when Double Gun Classics e-zine gets up again, that some sections of the Damascus albums might be included, but I've told John that I expect no payment since this stuff is not 'mine' and is for everyone's enjoyment and education. And more infro forthcoming from Pete M (eventually) regarding a 'Time Machine' he may have discovered!!

The singular study in the "Bat shooting" caper.

yOu have totally lost me....

Pete M and I have come up with more Belgian gun and barrel maker's marks, some of which were used by US gunmakers. Please check your damascus barrels just before the barrel flats for any of these stamps and I'd sure like to add them to the 'Belgian Mker's Marks' album http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181

L.C. Smith: Bauduin Doyen & Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont
Baker: Charles Spirlet & Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse
Lefever: Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse & George Laloux
Fox: Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont
Ithaca (Flues): Heuse-Riga Fils
Colt Patent Firearms Mfg. Co.: Plunger-Riga & Heuse-Riga Fils http://heuse.spahistoire.info/henriheuse.html
Remington:Named patterns used by Remington were London (Stub Twist), Twist, Laminated, Boston N. (Horse-shoe pattern), Boston 2 S.J. (large scroll 2 Iron Crolle), Oxford 2 & 4 S.J. (smaller scroll 3 Iron Crolle in several different patterns), Chain J, Etoile 3. B.P., Legia P. (Herring-bone pattern), Washington N 3. B.P. ("Stars & Stripes" or "American Flag Bunting"), Chine P ('mottled'), Ohonon 6 S.T., and Pieper P.
Remington damascus barrels with possible Belgian maker's marks include 'HP', frequently found on Oxford 4, likely Henri Pieper http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20en%20tete%20gb.htm Oxford patterns are used from the Model 1876 to the 1900 KED.
An Etoile pattern 1894 Pigeon Trap has a fused 'JP', possibly the mark of J. Pire & Cie, a large munitions firm established in Liege in 1885 http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pire%20gb.htm
The significance of 'S.J.' (Boston 2 and Oxford 2 & 4) is uncertain, but could be Simonis-Janssen http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...moulin%20gb.htm 'J' could also be one of the Janssen families http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20janssen%20gb.htm
The meaning of 'B.P.' (Washington N and Etoile) is unclear.
There were at least 20 Belgian companies that operated under the name Thonon, from approximately 1836-1941. Fernand Thonon & Co. was the proud distributor of arms to the courts of Italy and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.
Crowned HL - E. Heuse-Lemoine http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20gb.htm
Claude Gaier's "Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking" sheds some light on the connection between US and Belgian firms. Ernest Heuse-Lemoine (1834-1926) from Nessonvaux was a major force in the Vesdre Valley for barrel making. He maintained agents in London, Birmingham, and New York and his firm supplied the Belgian royal court. Every 3 years he would travel aboard and upon his return, would be met by a band in celebration because he always came back with more work orders than his own firm could handle. He would then distribute some of the work to smaller barrel makers in the Vesdre. Gaier states that Heuse-Lemoine supplied damascus barrels for at least 50 years to US makers, and that he invented the names of "Boston" and "Washington" damascus especially for the American market.

Flying snipe in an oval - Henri Pieper c. 1894
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20henri%20gb.htm
Supplied "Finest Damascus" for Remington Model 1894 EE Grade guns and "Oxford 4 S.J." barrels have been identified with 'HP' marks.
Henri Pieper received a patent for “Pieper' S Compressed Steel” on December 29, 1897.
Anciens Etablissements Pieper, often known simply as AEP, succeeded Etablissements Pieper, itself a successor to Henri Pieper & Companie, in 1905. At the time, premises were being occupied at 24 rue des Bayards in Liege, with a barrel making factory in nearby Nessonvaux. In 1907 a new factory was opened in Herstallez-Liege and the operations were consolidated. Pieper & Bayard used a Knight on horseback trademark.

Crown over FD in a diamond - Ferdinand Drissen
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20drissen%20gb.htm

Three-lobed crown over a D - Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont of Nessonvaux Found on damascus Smith guns.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20delcour%20dupont%20gb.htm

DD in an oval lying - Delcour-Dupont Jean de Fraipont-Nessonvaux
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20jobe%20t%20gb.htm

BD possibly the mark of Bauduin Doyen, a Nessonvaux damascus barrel and gun maker. Found on several Smith guns.

GDH- Gilles Delcour Herket de Fraipont

CC - Lucient Clement, also shows marks as CC AA & CC LC. On some guns made for Sears.

JP fused - J. Pire & Cie, on an "Etoile" pattern Remington Model 1894 Pigeon Trap http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pire%20gb.htm

J superimposed on a D- Jean Duchateau

J.L., usually on the wings of a ladybug, was one trademark for Joseph Janssen.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20janssen%20gb.htm Jean Lejeune of Nessonvaux is known to have supplied 'Oxford Superfine' and 'Boston' damascus.

LD- Dumoulin-Lambinon (1860-1879) http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20dumoulin%20gb.htm
or L. Drion http://translate.google.com:80/translate...l%3Den%26sa%3DN


Crown over GL in an oval - George Laloux - common on Lefevers with serial numbers 2XXXX range.
Bee with G L on wings after about 1910
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20laloux%20georges%20gb.htm


J J in an oval, two letters one with the top of the other and being separated from a horizontal bar and Crowned JJ.
Joseph Joiris of Nessonvaux http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20joiris%20gb.htm

H.R.F. of Heuse-Riga Fils http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20gb.htm
Ithaca Flues model

ADH and a diamond - Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse de Fraipont. Jacques Delvaux and Heuse held a joint patent for the making of damascus, c. 1892. On Lefever and Baker

Crowned HL - Plunger-Lemoine E.

HB could be Heuse-Bovy
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20gb.htm

SC with a crown over - possibly Charles Spirlet, who also used a Crown over CS and Crown over S. On a Baker

L&T, TAT, TT&C - Theate-Lambin http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...amille%20gb.htm

Under one name or another, Pieper or their companies made firearms for nearly a century. The genius of Henri was his early adoption of the American factory system for arms production. Nicolas expanded the business. He is noteworthy for 2 reasons, his early hiring of women in the factory, side by side with men (some thing that did not take place in America until WWII). Also his large scale production of hand guns, which was the Pieper-Bayard mainstay for decades.

Henri Pieper was descendant from his German father, Heinrich Pieper. In the nearly century they were in business they produced rifles, shotguns, cartridges, machine guns, pistols, revolvers, and many military arms. It is easy to say, "They made junk" because at times they did. It also easy to say, "Their guns won just about every award and exposition in Europe", because at times they did. There is a misconception that they flooded the American market with cheap guns. They certainly sold their share of firearms under various trade names in the American market. However, they were not alone. It is simply too easy to assign all JABC to Pieper. Upon closer examination of these firearms, we often find other maker's trademarks and stamps.

Henri was followed in the business by Nicolas. I am not going to get into an exact history, nor listing of guns. It is simply too long.

Some names, trade names, etc associated with various Piepers;
Demi-Bloc, Centaure, Diane, Adler, Bayard, Eagle Gun Works, E.Leroy, P Couronné, The Leader, Royal Gun Works, Premier Arms, Compound Damascus, National Arms, Le Rationnel, Heny Arms

Nicholas Pieper, was in business 1906-1927, 1928-1932 making pistols and other arms with Jean Warnant and Hippolyte Thonon.

Trademarks stamped on barrels
NP, Nicolas Pieper
AEP, Anciens Establissements Pieper



Sources:
"Le Qui est Qui De L'Armurerie Liegeoise 1800-1950", Gadisseur-Druart
"Les Armuriers De Liege en Catalogues (1891-1930)", Gadisseur
"Bayard Les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie 1859-1957", Druart
"Cinq siècles d'armurerie liégeoise", Claude Gaier

Web sources:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20nicolas%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...%20ets%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20s%20a%20ets%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20henri%20gb.htm
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20en%20tete%20gb.htm

Pete

axbent@spray.se
thx!

revdocdrew:

Most 19th century sources all refer back to Roger Bacon, Monk, Ilchester, in Somersetshire in the 13th century as having knowledge or being an "Arabic scholar." I was curious if anyone had any knowledge of Bacon's "6th Chapter Epistles of the Secrets of Arts" which definitely included info on gun powder, buth what about Damascus?

Kind Regards

Raimey
rse

Raimey-you're killin' me! The search continues.

revdocdrew:

I gave a warning that I was going to dig in history a bit. There is another English chap named Lt. Col. Bagnold cited as being an authority on barrels that stated that Damascus came from India(1819?). The then types, oh the varieties(wire/stub(required to make Damascus) & Damascus): Mr. Wiswould's Iron, Wednesbury's Skelp, Sham Damn Skelp, etc.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

OK Raimey-you got me. Did that come from The Gun by William Greener, 1835?

revdocdrew:

I believe I found a refernce in "Gunnery in 1858" by W. Greener and then went back to "The Gun 1834" by W. Greener, C.E. Both texts were originals. It seems that as W. Greener, or W.W. Greener, continued saga with the books, they assume that you have read the previous one as found listed on the title page. So, every next generation book has less info, just an inferred reference to a previous. I was curious too as to the intials "C.E." What did it stand for? Engineer of some description?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not sure.

"The Gun" is available through Cornell Pubs
http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates2/Greener%201835.htm

AND as an on-line book
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C&dq=wiswould%27s+iron

Great stuff!

Correction: "Gunnery in 1858" was an original text. "The Gun 1834" was a 20th century reprint. I've read so many chapters in many different books that they are all running together. Thanks for the reference. The online one is as I have read. But the reprint had "The Gun 1834" on the front page as well as 1834 for the date.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

In The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms, Greener described 9 different gun barrels at that time, and in general was extremely critical of the quality of British gun barrels being produced:
1. Damascus from only two sources: Mr Clive of Birmingham and George Adams of Wednesbury
2. Wire-Twist Iron
3. Stub-Twist Iron or Stub Damascus. Made from horse-nail stubs (iron) mixed with coach spring steel, fused into a "bloom of iron", then hammer forged into rods, rolled into threads, which were then wrapped around a mandrel and welded.
4. Mr Wiswoulds Iron Barrels and a similar product called Silver Steel. These are described as ¾ steel and ¼ iron and from the description may be Two Rod Laminated Steel
5. Charcoal Iron (without steel) – inferior to Stub-Twist
6. Threepenny Skelp Iron
7. Twopenny/Wednesbury Skelp
8. Sham Damn Skelp which apparently was stained to look like Wire-Twist
9. Swaff Iron Forging made up from small scrapes of lockplates and gunscrews

In my opinion and from what I have read, an addition that the Wire twist was from horseshoe "stub" nails and other quality irons(saws, pen making waste, etc.) may be required. One of the others, maybe Charcoal Iron, was composed of old coach springs which was considered inferior metal. This was described in "Gunnery in 1858" I believe.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Charcoal Iron refers to the smelting process.

Large tracts of forest were destroyed to provide charcoal to smelt the ore into iron. As time went on other sources of fuel were sought out. The logical replacement was coal. However, the final solution was a coal derivative, coke. So, most smelters turned to coke. The Belgian damascus makers complained bitterly about coke smelted iron. They prized the charcoal produced iron above all other.

It turns out that coke introduces silicon impurities and a certain amount of sulfur, which makes damascus production difficult.

Pete

Greener measured the strength of the barrels (strongest to weakest) as:
Wire-Tist
Stub Twist
Charcoal
3d. Skelp
Damascus
Wiswould’s
Clearly at some point, damascus and laminated steel production was refined and improved to the point that British Laminated Steel was the winner of the Birmingham Proof House Test of 1891.


And for all you home chemists-here you go (I don't believe OSHA would approve of this stuff )

On the Staining of Barrels
There exists innumberable recipes, and in fact almost every maker has his own method. The first I have found to answer uncommonly well, and which it would be a difficult matter to excel. It consists of the following ingredients:-
1 oz. Muriate Tincture of Steel
1 oz. Sp. Wine
½ oz. Muriate of Mercury
¼ oz. Stong Nitric Acid
1/8 oz. Blue Stone
1 quart Water
These are well mixed, and allowed to stand a month to amalgamate. After the oil or grease has been removed from the barrels by lime, the mixture is laid with a sponge, every two hours, and scratched off with a steel-wire bruch every morning, until the barrels are dark enough; and then the acid is destroyed by pouring on the barrels boiling water, and continuing to rub them until nearly cool.

Drew is posting a historical note. Not to be attempted today.

Muriate of Mercury, just the thing NOT to have around the house. Mercury was used by the hat makers of 19th century. After enough exposure the term "Mad as a Hatter" was a real observation. It was also used in the original Dageurrotype process. Mercury fumes were used to develop the exposed silver plate. Again with the same result on the end user.

http://books.google.com/books?id=y08P3GE...DzmT5fN1aZhsiiI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning

Pete

Nice post PeteM. If you have a job, when do you have time to sleep in researching all this quality information?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I second Raimey's observation, other than Jerry Swinney, PeteM is either the most gifted or the most dogged gun researcher I have ever encountered... probably a mix of both...long ago, I rated him a 3 star...is there a way for me to re-rate this member to a 5 1/2 star?

And he's suppose to be off bird hunting right now-who is driving the car while you're on the lap-top Pete, the DOG?!?

(and it's extremely unlikely that any of us could purchase that stuff today! Check http://books.google.com/books?id=y08P3GE...5x7s1lubGl-1gSM )

Mr. Chambers: just make a category for General and that could be PeteM.

revdocdrew: I believe that there is another similar witch's brew for bringing out the barrels contrast in "The Gun, 1934."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That's where the formula came from, but watch what you say this close to Samhain and All-hallowsmas

I'm a decendent of the Celts and/or Germanic folk but I don't put much stock in the pagan holiday. If you find a copy of "The Gun, 1934", please let me know. I browsed ABE books last night and it looks like I am going to have to sell a few doubles(or not purchase for a while) to fund a book buying spree. The scanned web books are quite nice, but very little compares to the smell, as well as being able to turn the foxed pages of an original, possibly not a first edition, text.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Next week.
40 flushes per hour if this is to be believed:
http://www.pricecountywi.net/conditions/outdoors.html



Pete

PeteM:

We have to chat Shorthairs sometime as I have a black gyp with white ticking(among the other 5 various ones). I think I would like a Wirehair, but it is just too hot in Alabama. It will be 2 weeks for me until Kansas.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

More very interesting Greener stuff. The latest Julia's auction included a Greener SxS Item # 3274 with the top rib stamped "Inventor of Laminated Steel" !? Unfortunately, date of manufacture was not included. I've found no patents for barrel steel for Greener BUT this from The Science of Gunnery, as Applied to the Use and Construction of Fire-Arms by W.W. Greener, 1841 may be Greener’s description of his claim for inventing Laminated Steel:
“I have had as high as three-fourths of steel to one of iron, and where proper attention is paid to clipping of the steel to pieces, corresponding with the (horse-nail) stubs, and properly mixing the whole, welding (in an air furnace) and forging by the heavy hammer, reducing by a tilt ditto, and rolling down to the…rod, a most excellent, tenacious, and dense body of iron is obtained; while, by cutting into lengths of 6 inches, bundling a number together, and re-welding them into a bar, you gain an increased density and tenacity…rendering it…considerably more powerfully strong than any explosive fluid ever yet compounded could burst…”

I also found The Mechanics Magazine, Museum, Register, Journal and GazetteJuly, 1849 Ed. J.C. Robertson
"Paper read on the Manufacture of the Finer Irons and Steel, as Applied to Gun-Barrels..."
Greener described a new method of barrel production using scrap steel from old coach springs.

And more great reading available on-line
The Science of Gunnery, as Applied to the Use and Construction of Fire-Arms 1841 Oxford
http://books.google.com/books?id=ThYkeKlemD8C&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

“The Syrians were formerly celebrated for their skills in working of iron. Damascus barrels were not to be obtained, at certain periods, at a price less than their weight in silver. The elaborate mixtures of their barrels, swords, &c., entitle them truly to the honour of being the best iron workers…”

“Mr Hallam refers to the authority of an Arabic author…that there is no question that the knowledge of gunpowder was introduced into Europe through the means of Saracens (used to refer to Arabs living in Northern Sinai and a generic term for Moslems) before the middle of the 13th century…”
Greener dates the first use of cannon by the English to the battle of Werewater in 1327 and the invention of portable fire-arms by Italians in 1430.

A reference to the Epistle of the Secret Arts of Friar Bacon is found on p.18

“Our manufacture of inferior gunnery has certainly reached a depth of infamy which never any manufacture in the world reached…”

“Mr Whitehouse, of Wednesbury…has succeeded in obtaining a figure, or as late writers have termed it, “Watering or Jowher”, attests the attention and assiduity he must have devoted to the subject, for the variety is great and handsome…
A many conjectures have been advanced, and an endless discussion created, to account for the Watering or Jowher in oriental sword blades, and genuine Damascus barrels. Anything approaching the truth is seldom met with…”
“The most endless variety possible may be attained; a figure with the carbonized material, showing only the ends or edges of various lamina, or portions of the face of that lamina, may with equal facility be obtained…
It would be a never-ending task…to endeavour to describe a tithe of the varieties that might be made, and have been. The French and Belgians are very expert at this sort of ornamental work.
I have clearly shown, that whatever other qualities Damascus possesses, strength is not one of its properties.”

Gloria a Dios found this C.G. Bonehill (unfortunately without date of manufacture) on an old Greg Martin auction site. The pattern very much looks like that illustrated in Greener's book for the early 1800s English Mr Wiswoulds Iron Barrels-linear rather than scroll. This may represent the earliest attempt at Laminated steel (which looks like herring-bone.) Anyone with a similar pattern?? date of manufacture of your gun?

Figel, "On Damascus Steel"
Figel has a picture of a matchlock rifle from India, circa 1700. He identifies the pattern as herringbone. It bears a close resemblance to the Bonehill barrels. However, the method of fabricating the barrels was very different. I believe this matchlock is held by the Victoria and Albert Museum. So is it possible it was on display when that Bonehill was made?

Henry Blochmann, Henry Sullivan Jarrett, "The Ain i Akbari By Abū al-Fazul ibn Mubārak", Published 1873
Detailing the rule of Akbar about 1590 A.D. in India. Akbar took great interest in the fabrication of firearms.

From Volume 1 of 5.
These cylindrical pieces can be used to form yet another pattern that has no equivalent in Europe. It is known as the "Circle and Rose", which Figel has pictures of as well as diagrams of fabrication techniques that may have been used.

Pete

Pete-

Very good information there! Thanks for the research.

Doug

Another pic of the Bonehill with the interesting barrel pattern



And the Maker's Case Label



Can anyone suggest the approximate date of manufacture?

Raimey, my non typical coated Wirehair will lie in the sun for hours. She would love to live in Alabama. Seriously, many breeders of Wirehairs end up with a short coated dog occasionally and would be glad to have someone like you pay good money for it. I have seen a picture of such dogs on a Wirehair website. They describe the trait as "not approved for breeding". Who cares? My pup has all the attributes of a normal Wirehair except long kinky hair. She looks like a black and white English Pointer with docked tail. Murphy

The Bonehill is most likely of the 1880 -1895 time frame. There is a good chance it came directly to USA in the relatively large orders of 1880-1890, before implementation of the McKinley tarriff of 35% plus $6. I have seen similar guns, but not that barrel pattern.

Thanks! It was very much my hope that it was earlier and could identify the time frame for Mr Wiswoulds Iron Barrels. It doesn't look like any Laminated Steel I've seen. Oh well-the search continues

rdd - keep in mind that those barrels could have been laying around in someone's shop for a long time before being used in this gun. Anybody's guess when, where, or from whom Bonehill got them. The USA guns were on the cheap/machine made side for Brit guns. So, these could easily have been some bargain basement barrels. I'd not be surprised if they were of Belgian origin, either. To get any kind of fix on them, we need to seem more similar with something identifiable as to source and/or age.

It's lot # 1631 on the current Greg Martin site
http://68.167.203.107:8050/FMPro?-db=GMA...86297&-find
Unfortunately, no pic of the brl flats.

revdocdrew: I hope you can find "The Gun, 1834" which has a little more info. When I have a little spare time, I'm going to continue the search for books as well as Damascus. If possible, give us a recap for time to time, or is in on your blog?

eightbore: great idea. When you run across a female(may be one condition too many) one, let me know in that I would like to have a bear dog incase any ever come off the mountains into the valley. They are good skunk dogs in addition to good bird dogs.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey: these Greener books are available on-line

The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms 1835
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C&pg=PA30-IA1&dq=wiswould%27s+iron#PPA1,M1

The Science of Gunnery, as Applied to the Use and Construction of Fire-Arms 1841 Oxford
http://books.google.com/books?id=ThYkeKlemD8C&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

Gunnery in 1858: Being a Treatise on Rifles, Cannon, and Sporting Arms
http://books.google.com/books?id=A4TPW796iD8C&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

The Gun and It's Development 1907
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

We're now up to 10 Damascus albums on the PictureTrail (I really need to find a meaningful life ) which are all accessible here http://www.picturetrail.com/revdocdrew

I just e-mailed you a Word document Damascus overview, and would be happy to share that with anyone interested. e-mail me at revdoc2@cox.net

revdocdrew:

But what about the 1934 one? I'll check my stacked email. Thanks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I believe the 1835 on-line book IS the the 1834 The Gun. There is a letter in the preface from Col. Hawker dated Dec. 29, 1834 thanking Greener for the book he received. Reading through the Preface is sounds like this was his first book. The cover page is, however, dated 1835.

I've read your informative post on the 1935 version & I don't remember the same in recollecting my reading of some chapters of "The Gun, 1934." I try to make it a habit to read the title page. I would like to start from the beginning of the Greener Saga and compare either in reprints or originals. But I will compare in the near feature. As a guess, eightbore or Researcher one referred to the 1934 version.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Big typo Raimey-that is 18 35. Sorry!

AND may have found an example of what Greener called 'Stub Damascus' (which from the description may have been an early attempt at Laminated Steel), this c. 1860s H&H Cape Gun. Compare to http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C&pg=PA30-IA1&dq=wiswould%27s+iron and http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C&pg=PA18-IA1&dq=wiswould%27s+iron

No, the error is mine. I meant 1834 & 1835 respectively. Posting with a lack of sleep leads to errors.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rev,

Getting back to your Greener recipe and method, does that read correct? Just keep applying coats of rusting formula for a whole day and card just once a day?

The boil would give a black, not brown, correct? Thought the English guns were mostly "Browned"?

I have the day off, it's hot and humid with a good breeze. Busted out the LMF that has been sitting around unopened for nearly a year and am giving a "Brown" finish a try.

Best,
Mark

775: straight from his book and I believe the best advice would be DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! As Pete said, this is extremely dangerous stuff, and we're talking about techniques used almost 200 years ago.
Have you seen the 'Flanigan's Damascus Restoration' album?
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17977891

No worries on the mercury Rev, am trying the "process" with Laurel Mountain Forge solution.

Yup, read that link a while back(and saved it, thank you), seems to be a "black" process though and thought the Greener method still possible with modern chemistry for a "Brown"?

If I skip the Boil?

Thanks for the concern!
Mark

BTW: Not sure what the 'Sp. Wine' is, but pretty sure it's for the browning mixture, not the browning-person

I haven't heard from Paul Stevens in a bit, but he was working on marketing a 'Browning' solution
paul@stevensandjohnson.freeserve.co.uk

Eureka-now THIS is interesting!!
?SILVER-STEEL FOUND?

In The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms by William Greener 1835, Mr Wiswould’s Iron Barrels and a similar product called Silver Steel are described as ¾ steel and ¼ iron which were also fused into a “bloom”, welded under tilt hammers, then rolled into rods. This might represent early Two Rod Laminated Steel as the 'billet' did not start with the 'piling' of alternating iron and steel strips, but the fused iron and steel mixture which was then flattened into strips, twisted, wound around the mandrel, and welded.
In William Wellington Greener's The Gun and Its Development, 1907, Junior stated that Silver Steel was "used by the author."
A percussion W. Greener 12b #19707 is on the Julia auction site which is stamped "Inventor of Laminated Steel" on top rib. Unfortunately, no close up of the barrels is provided, nor the date of manufacture.
This Keith Kearcher refinished late 1880s Greener G60 was felt to have Bernard I damascus BUT it seems more likely that this is Silver Steel, and does resemble the illustration in the 1935 book



I believe someone here sent me that pic. Anyone else out there with a Greener with similar barrels??

WOW-the damascus crucible runneth over!!

Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886 http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...th+edition+1910
A Short History of Gun-making starts on p. 51 http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...and%22#PPA51,M1

And on p. 73 some great stuff:
"Best Silver Steel Damascus barrels contain over 70% of the finest steel, and it is the systematic twisting and arrangement of the iron and steel bars, as they are welded together and beaten into a flat ribbon before being coiled into the form of a tube, that give the beautiful figure or pattern observed in a first-class twist barrel..."
"Laminated steel barrels differ but slightly from those known as 'Damascus.' The former were first made by Mr. W. Greener (senior), of Birmingham, about 1850, and were composed of three parts steel and one part iron. At the present time the best English damascus, as well as laminated steel barrels, contain over 60% of the harder metal, and there is little perceptible difference between Damascus and a laminated Damascus barrel, as both are of very similar workmanship and materials."

Drew-

The gun barrels pictured belong to my younger brother's Greener and I have actually held and fired that shotgun before Keith worked on it. This is really a very sweet shotgun by the way, Keith not only did the barrels but he bedded the stock and tightened up the action, which wasn't too bad as found. The gun has a lot of very well done engraving and really all it lacks is ejectors to make it "all tricked out" and I strongly suspect that as anyone ordering that shotgun could have afforded anything he wanted...the owner simply had no use for ejectors.

When I began to understand, thanks mostly to you, that the white of a damascus barrel represented steel, I too was amazed at these barrels because they had more white pattern than dark (almost the reverse of the typical pattern).

Are "silver steel" barrels rare?

Doug

Thanks Doug-I'll add the appropriate attribution to the pic.
And in answer to your question, I didn't know there was such a thing until yesterday!

revdocdrew:

The definition of "steel" is what I took note of in reading some of Greener's publications. If I understand it correctly, they deemed iron(horsenail stubs, saws, etc.) to be better than steel. And then the types of barrels, all with some addition of steel. But as I have said, I think their school of thought changed with time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Drew,

That is great info. I think I have a gun "similar" barrels. Here is pictued of my 16 bore Greener, started in 1883 and finished in 1886. The barrels look similar to my eye. Unfortunately the photo is not as good as the one you posted. I still have not figured out people take such clear closeups.

http://truffula.fr.umn.edu/~kwythers/images/IMG_1.jpg

Thanks kray, and I'd very much like to add an ultra close-up of your brls to the PictureTrail!
Good barrel, receiver, and wood photographs are difficult to take. The closer you can get, the better. The best backgrounds are solid (not patterned) light grey or light blue. It's hard not to get a flash reflection when the photograph is taken inside, so photos are best when taken with filtered sun (just slightly overcast) outside. OR use a sheet of Kleenex over the flash. Orient the barrels left to right (horizontal) rather than on diagonal (hard to crop) and NOT looking from breech end toward muzzle. And be sure and use the 'close up' function on your digital camera. Please try again

Unfortunately, the Damascus OCD Intervention Team seems to have failed, and I've made another PictureTrail album: Arabesque and Damascus Steel
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=18112027
Some additional resources should arrive soon on Inter-Library loan, and I wanted to get all the Wootz, calligraphy, and oriental rug stuff together. More to follow and brain altering pharmaceuticals not required jOe!

Although Wootz/Balat/Crucible steel is not pattern welded, it may have been the inspiration for damascus steel, and found some neat reading here including the report of Maj. General Pavel Anossoff on "Bulat"

From http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf

"Wootz...was coined when European travellers from the 17th century onward came across the making of steel by crucible processes in Southern India in the present day states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, and Karnataka. Wootz was the Anglicization of 'ukku', the Kannada word for steel."

“Wootz was the first high-quality steel
made anywhere in the world. According
to reports of travelers to the East,
the Damascus swords were made
by forging small cakes of steel that
were manufactured in Southern India.
This steel was called wootz steel.
It was more than a thousand years before
steel as good was made in the West.”
-J. D. Verhoeven and A. Pendray, Muse, 1998

And from one of my favorites:

Gold is for the mistress- silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade
“Good” said the Baron, sitting in the hall,
“ But, Iron- Cold Iron, - is master of them all”.
-Rudyard Kipling

Need some help gentlemen. Raimey and I have been discussing Dig's great new book, and it was my hope that he would attach names to some of the English damascus patterns.
This pattern seems to be typical for high grade English guns-a small scroll Three Iron Crolle but with what looks like a weld line down the middle of each row of scrolls (making identifying the true ribband weld line quite difficult)





Was there a 'name' associated with this pattern? Thanks!

Don't know....was that bottom picture hy-jacked from Lewis and Arse in Kentucky ?

http://www.drake.net/products/Holland--H...n-1890?id=28618

revdocdrew:

There is a very similar pattern in black & white in Charles Semmer's "Remington Double Shotguns" on page 272 defined as: "Style: Oxford 2 S.J. - Model 1882, Grade 4." If you have the text, have a look and let me know as I am on the hunt. Also, on page 271, "Style: Twist - Model 1889, Grade 2" has the repeating bands in a London style. I would venture to guess that the twist pattern is an even number of "steel" and iron. And your pattern is an odd multiple of "steel" and iron. What do you know about the Belgian pattern 3 Iron Crolle(number of braids & the like)?

In Dig's book on page 85, a "G Grade" looks to have the same repeating pattern but there is a lot of glare in the pic. Any "G Grade" Greener pics in your bag of tricks?

Last, in Greener's "The Gun" 9th edition on p. 235, "The true English Damascus barrel is prepared from three rods, twisted as described and put together as shown in the twisted riband, and is know technically as three-iron Damascus: the silver-steel Damascus is similarly made, but of different metal piled in a different order." So I now would guess that could be some variant of "Silver-Steel Damascus." Thoughts, waaaaay off base?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

RevdOc....I'm truly sorry for pooping on your Persian rugg theory.
Forgive me.

Just wait oh ye of little faith and deficiencies in right brain "holistic reasoning functions, transduction of visual and musical stimuli, spatial manipulation, and artistic ability..."
The Arabesque: Meaning and Transformation of an Ornament just got in on Inter-Library loan

Excellent observation Raimey-all the Remington damascus patterns are up on the 'Colt and Remington Damascus' album
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=17067005

This is Ross' B Grade 1894 with fine "Three-stripe" "Oxford 4 S.J." The scrolls in the pattern on the Purdey are smaller, and a big however is the fact that Remington almost certainly obtained their damascus from Belgium. We've been able to identify several makers, but still don't know who 'S.J.' might have been. The search goes on.

I'm re-posting the Keith Kearcher refinished late 1880s Greener G60 which might be 'Silver Steel' (courtesy of Doug Craig)



The difference between Damascus and Laminated is:
1. Higher steel content
2. Better quality steel
3. Fewer twists of the rods
4. The steel and iron is mixed together in a "bloom" which is then welded, pounded, and rolled into rods. The rods are then twisted and wrapped around a mandrel like damascus. Damascus, however, starts with separate thin strips of iron and steel which are twisted and welded together.

The usual laminated pattern is, therefore, an irregular mosaic of iron (black) and steel (silver)



BUT might have a distinctly 'herring-bone' linear pattern

c. 1860s W&C Scott

OK all you right-brain challenged philistines. I believe it was rabbit who volunteered to have a gin or five and provide an official determination as to the connection between Arabesque and Damascus steel.

From Ernst Kuhnel The Arabesque; Meaning and Transformation of an Ornament, 1949. Translation by Richard Ettinghausen, 1977

"Although it was the Arabs who invented the motif and fixed its image, Muslim artists of all tongues, Iranians, Turks, Indians and Berbers used the arabesque and provided new variants. At times, Western draughtsmen were also unable to escape the charm of these strange patterns, which for a while even turned into a European fashion.
As in the case of other scrollwork, the arabesque, too, consists essentially of stem and leaf. However, while the botanical identity of the grapevine or acanthus is more or less reserved in whatever application it might be found, there is no such organic connection in the case of the unnatural, bifurcated form of the arabesque. It can present itself as being squat or stilted, compact or loosely composed, smooth or with a rough surface, ribbed, feathered, or pierced, painted, round or convoluted, simply outlined or with a spirited contour…serial arrangement with mirror images or upside-down repetitions, the creation of calyx or palmette forms by means of reciprocal duplication, the articulation through geometric strapwork or through cartouches and medallions.
One of the main applications of the arabesque was its combination with epigraphy. In the whole Islamic world, the preferred decoration of buildings and objects was the written, pious phrase and the surprising wealth of resulting calligraphic is well known…inscriptions were usually bedded on a ground of bifurcating scrolls…"

c. 10th century fresco from a temple in Murtuq, Turfan region, Turkestan with a "Horse-shoe" pattern



13th century wood carving from the Mausoleum of the Imam Shafi'i in Cairo, Egypt with a "Crolle" pattern



jOe-doncha see it!?!

nOpe...

This help?

Doc-

Not everyone will see, or will admit to seeing, what you see (I do by the way). You could be totally wrong. In the study of history and the study of other human events, one learns that just as it is difficult to know cause and effect the instant a thing happen, it can be equally, if not more difficult to know this upon reflection. E.g., we struggle to understand the recent history of powered flight (who did or who copied what.)

But the evidence is piling up in favor of the connections you are making between non-European (much less non-English) influences in the patterns/motifs, and perhaps even in the technology and there has been very little evidence to suggest otherwise.


Doug

revdocdrew:

I don't know if I totally agree with the difference. I don't think that the iron & steel is mixed before being fused and experiencing the 3 ton forge hammer for the Laminated. It is the steel only, from mild steel parts, that is fused. I believe the alternating rods or steel and iron are later. The steel is made from the bloom.

The main difference in Laminated & Damascus is the quality of steel, as you stated & the number of flat bars from the twisted rope lathe. Before the Laminated barrel can be made "The gun-iron makers not get a long strip of mild steel the thickness required, and then a bar of superior iron the same size;.." Also, Laminated is made from 2 rods "with the inclinations of the twist running in opposite directions." And Damascus is composed of 3 rods.

It seems that the definition of Laminated & Damacus change as time marches on; therefore, the definition of Laminated & Damascus will be time varying. I believe that iron starts out as a major percentage and steel lands up being higher later on. Also the rods or iron & steel are different sizes & shapes. In Greener's 9th edition, he mentions old and new laminated.

All above from Greener's books.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

dOc I'm left handed and I still can't see the conection in the patterns....might have to get me a Hemp rugg and study up.

Raimey-you may be correct, and both Greeners confuse me by mixing the names of the different barrel material. In The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms 1st Edition 1835 W. Greener discusses the manufacture of
Stub-Twist Iron on p. 24
(Steel and iron)...after being properly mixed together, they are put into an air furnace and heated to a state of fusion, in which state they are stirred up by a bar of the same mixture of iron and steel, until by their adhesion they form a ball of apparently melting metal. During this process the bar has become sufficiently heated to attach itself to the burning mass, technically called a bloom of iron...By this mode of manufacturing, the iron and steel are so intimately united and blended...
He also described the bloom in reference to Mr Wiswould’s Iron Barrels and Silver Steel.
In The Science of Gunnery, as Applied to the Use and Construction of Fire-Arms, 1841, He discusses the "bloom" again on p. 98 & 109.
On p. 154 of Gunnery in 1858: Being a Treatise on Rifles, Cannon, and Sporting Arms, he discusses Silver Steel and common Twist Steel (though at other places uses the term 'Silver Damascus'), states "I make my own laminated steel" (is it Silver steel?) then discusses the bloom mentioning ONLY steel and no iron?!
On p. 167, he seems to be promoting some (his?) superior barrel material. "The mixture of a portion of steel with the stubs having clearly shown an improvement...we have had as high as 3/4 of steel to 1 of iron. Where proper attention is paid to the clipping of the steel to pieces, corresponding with the stubs, and properly mixing the whole, welding and forging by the heavy hammer, reducing by a tilt and rolling down to the smallest description of rod, a most excellent, tenacious, and dense body of iron is thus obtained."
I remain confused

I did so offer. Headache gone; tux at the cleaners; late nite coffer jitters. I loved the thought from Doc that the process that produces the purely aesthetic (if there is such a thing) may LATER be found to be a process that provides desirable characteristics of the engineering kind. Hadn't thought that way myself; thought you get the surface look from a process as a manipulatible by-product but still just a byproduct (cf. color-producing case hardening). I think the vinings and branchings and twistings of the "organic" seen in the arabesque borders are a celebratory rendering of the sinuous, bending, pliant and resilient strength of of the plant kingdom and also of the wonderfully useful things that are made by processes imitative of "natural" growth: weaving, twisting, bundling. Now Joe, I'm just trying to make this here hemp into rope--not smoke it so don't get your knickers in a twist. I don't know that Doc's view of things even differs much from the R&D approach of Tom Edison or Uncle Dupee's flubber mixers. Sometimes you get the stuff right off the vine, sometimes you imitate the vine to make the stuff (molecular chemistry), and sometimes you make some superstuff that you don't know what for until the invention mothers necessity. Doc, you must have loved that PBS series "Connections" a few years back.

jack

revdocdrew:

Confused I am and the more I read the more confusion there seems to be on the surface. So, as you have stated depending on which Greener & which book the terms "damascus", "iron", "laminated" & "steel" seem to have varying definitions. It is probably due to changes in barrel technology and their desire to sell barrels and guns. W. or W.W. Greener both would have made fine politician, speech stumpers and the like, if they weren't already.
If you get a chance look the definition of laminated in "Modern Breech-Loaders: Sporting & Military and add it to the mix. Is there anyone around that knows how the rods were to be combined to achieve a desired pattern? Or are there recipes stashed somewere in archives.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Came up with this:
"Damascus or twist-steel barrels are made by layering alternate strips of steel and iron then welding them together. The strips are then twisted until they resembled a screw, three of these wound strips are then welded together, wound around a steel mandrel, then welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Laminated steel barrels are a bit different. They start with a ball of steel and iron that is then hammered into long strips and twisted, then, like their Damascus cousin, wound around a mandrel, welded and hammered into a barrel tube."
From The Shotgun Encyclopedia by John Taylor

It would be a fascinating trip to explore the Belgian Patent office (if I spoke French.) It's likely most of the Belgian damascus patterns were patented, and likely the patents were ignored as all the members of Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre made 'Bernard', 'Boston', etc.
Desire Mineur, of Prayon, Liege, claimed exclusive rights to "Chain-pattern" damascus in 1904, despite the fact that the pattern had been used for at least 20 yrs.

revdocdrew:

Also, examining the core definition of laminated requires the use of strips. Either Greener was about the only authority on damascus barrel making or he lifted the plates or figures from someone who did because almost all the sketches I have seen either reference of look curiously familiar to Greener's. What year was Tayor's book or what was his reference. Being redundant, I still subscribe to the thought that the mixture in making Damascus changed with time(amount iron > steel, then amount steel > iron). But what was the definition of iron in the beginning?

But you have to be correct in your statement because in Dig's book laminated steel is defined as being "made from best quality steel scrap mixed with some charcoal iron and worked under a forge hammer repeatedly until the close and even grain desired was achieved." I just need to rationalize it for myself because if you read some of Greener's ramblings in "Modern Breech-Loaders", it is not so apparent unless you know the composition of the "mild steel" and others that are mixed.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jack You hit the nail on the head
Casey

Unfortunately then, as now, words mean simply what the writer intends for them to mean, and once an opionion or statement is made, it is repeated thereafter over and over until it is established as 'common knowledge.' Dig's statement about laminated steel being made with charcoal iron is a new one. It is very likely that production techniques changed significantly through the 1800s. Certainly Greener thought damascus was weaker than Stub Twist in 1835. Some form of Laminated steel seemed to be the barrel of choice for high grade guns in the 1860s-1870s, then English Three Iron Crolle (at least by Purdey), then Whitworth steel by the 1890s.

revdocdrew:

So, where is is Manton's, Purdey's(the Trinity's), Whitworth's definition of Damascus and what was their recipe on barrel making? Or did most of the tubes originate in Birmingham or Belgium? Here's what I intend to do: review all the Greener works, and others if available, and try to put them in perspective in a time line, comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges. I'd appreciate any input or any additional references you have.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't have any sources other than those already cited, including these two. Pete M is off bird hunting, and likely has some more.

Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald
Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...th+edition+1910
A Short History of Gun-making starts on p. 83
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...and%22#PPA51,M1
Best Silver Steel Damascus barrels contain over 70% of the finest steel, and it is the systematic twisting and arrangement of the iron and steel bars, as they are welded together and beaten into a flat ribbon before being coiled into the form of a tube, that give the beautiful figure or pattern observed in a first-class twist barrel...
Laminated steel barrels differ but slightly from those known as 'Damascus.' The former were first made by Mr. W. Greener (senior), of Birmingham, about 1850, and were composed of three parts steel and one part iron. At the present time the best English damascus, as well as laminated steel barrels, contain over 60% of the harder metal, and there is little perceptible difference between Damascus and a laminated Damascus barrel, as both are of very similar workmanship and materials.

From the Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904 "Gun and Small-Arms Factories" by A.E. Patrick, p. 149-175 From 'Gun Barrels' starting on p. 159
The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal for the old-fashioned laminated steel barrels, a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed. They were then cut into pieces of the same size, melted together, gathered into a bloom, and the mass placed under a tilt hammer, welded into a block of iron which was immediately rolled into bars. The bars were then cut into regular lengths, and the required quantity laid together and fastened into a faggot, this faggot was again heated in the furnace and hammered and rolled into rods of the size required by the barrel welders. The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores. The iron is made into rods, and subjected to hammering and rolling, which condenses the metal and increases the ductility and tenacity by elongating and densifying the fibres. The faggots are heated and welded seven times during the process of manufacture of the best barrel metal. The iron for the manufacture of gun barrels is made in square rods of various thicknesses for the best barrels, and in flat rods for plain twist or scelp barrels. To give the Damascus figure the square rods are first twisted, the operation being carefully overlooked to guard against one portion being twisted more rapidly than the other. This process is repeated until the rod is perfectly twisted and a regular figure in the barrel insured. It is this twisting of the rods that makes the difference between a best barrel and a common one. All Damascus barrels must be made of twisted rods. Plain twist or scelp barrels are made from plain straight rods or ribands. It is the twist in the rods that cause the figure to appear in the barrels and all iron so twisted is called "Damascus," from the town Damascus, where a similar process was first practised for the far-famed Damascus sword blades. The prepared rod is either joined to other rods or coiled and welded into a barrel singly. Damascus barrels are made from one, two, or three twisted rods, and occasionally the Continental makers use four to six rods together. The Damascus barrels, as made in England, are usually manufactured from three twisted rods, which is quite sufficient to form a very fine figure in the barrel. Laminated steel barrels are twisted and the rods welded in the same manner as the Damascus, but the rods are composed of superiour metal containing a larger percentage of steel. The rods having been twisted and the required number welded together, they are then rolled at a red heat into ribands. The ribands are then twisted into spiral form, again heated, and the coil well hammered until thoroughly welded. The proportionate amounts of the different descriptions of metal in a barrel determine its quality. Best English Damascus and modern laminated steel contain 60 per cont. of steel. The amount of steel is determined upon before making the metal into faggots for the last time. If for scelp barrels, the strips of iron are twice the thickness of the steel, the faggots being formed of alternate layers of iron and steel. In single iron Damascus barrels the proportion of iron is not much less than the steel, and although not passing through so many processes as the best barrels, is still far superiour in quality to ordinary iron. In twisting the rods every care is taken to keep the edges of the iron and steel strips to the outside, for it is the twisting of the different metals that gives the various figures in the finished barrel. The steel being hard, resists the acids employed in the browning process and retains a white or light brown hue, whilst the iron, or softer metal, is so acted upon by the acid as to be changed into a dark brown or black colour. There is nothing in the process calling for any particular notice as far as fire risk is concerned. If in a suitable building there is no more risk than in a smithy, and in the whole course of my insurance experience I can only remember having one claim for a smithy being destroyed.

"Iron" should mean relatively pure iron as they knew pretty well how to make that. "Mild steel" shold mean non-heat treatable steel - around 0.2% carbon content. I don't think they were very sophisticated in identifying carbon content in heat treatable steels. Springs were most likely in the 0.7% - 0.9% carbon content region. The "bloom" was at welding temperature, so the steel was annealed, but the iron and steel chips were not totally melted. If melted, you would have wound up with simply lower carbon steel due to the inclusion of iron. The chips, wheter iron or steel, retained their identies.

Control of this process would involve the ratio of iron to steel, the grade of both iron and steel, chip sizes, uniformity of welding, and the amount of hot working and cold working of the rods produced from the bloom. Patterning should have been random, but probably got some orientation due to chip shapes and hammering.

I'd agree that terminology, materials, and measurements changed dramatically during the production period. I'd also bet that most patterns were "trade secret" rather than patented. Trade secrets tend to disappear with the last man standing.

"Trade secrets tend to disappear with the last man standing."
Excellent, and sad, point.

Here is a patent for Heuse-Lemoine

Two questions: what about info on Marshall of Birmingham(Dig reference) who made tubes and an off the wall question of the effect of cracking the speed of sound in a Damascus tube, or any tube for that matter of fact, and the harmonics that the event sets up??

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

From the 1956 Shooter's Bible (likely a pre-WW I sales brochure)

Raimey - you aren't going to crack the speed of sound in a gun barrel. The powder gas is hot enough that you won't go that fast. Also, no amount of pressure will cause the gas to exceed Mach one (speed of sound for existing conditions and not a fixed velocity) in a straight wall bore. A convergent nozzle section can achieve Mach one, but you must add a divergent section to exceed Mach one. Excess pressure will only increase the density of the gas, but not the velocity, as you approach the speed of sound. Post back if any of that begs questions - I ought to be able to explain it.

So, pV = nRT has a larger effect than the velocity itself, which is at or greater than the speed of sound in a vacuum?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The pressure/volume/temperature relationship doesn't have a lot to do with sonic velocity. There is no sonic velocity in a vacuum as there is no sonic part - you have to have a fluid present to have an sonic pressure waves. No waves, not wave velocity.

This is a fascinating thread, and I don't know where it will lead.Richard Akehurst in his book 'Game Guns & Rifles' by the Sportsmans Press has a lot to say about the manufacture of Damascus, he mentions Greener's and the Birmingham Proof Houses Tests and concerns about 'inferior' Belgian wares.Ken Davies's H&H book 'The Better Shot' shows some gorgeous examples.Remember Iron Forging was perfected by my family (Big Head)here in the Severn Gorge ( Ironbridge)so I think our Museums may have some interesting data available. But where do we start? It must be remembered that Greener was a master of self publicity, did he do so much? or did he ride on the backs of many journeymen craftsmen who were only concerned with earning a crust?There is no doubt in my mind we owe a lot to Greeners for imparting the knowledge, but was there far more works of art lost in time?Or sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury?

"Or sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury?"

Exactly Peter. W. Greener claimed to have invented Laminated Steel, but I've found no patent, nor did he name his invention. With his penchant for self-promotion (ie. Greener cross-bolt & Greener side safety) one would think 'Greener Laminated Steel' would be found stamped on his guns.
Might have to make the trip, but do they speak American in Wednesbury?

Just found W.W. Greener's The Gun, 9th edition as an On-line book, but not all the pages are available
http://books.google.com/books?id=2-m8epN2hLIC&dq=greener+crossbolt

Gloria a Dios-we have an answer on p. 230 (following a description of mixing the iron and steel together to form the bloom)
"In the best silver-steel Damascus, used by the author, the exact proportions of iron and steel used are such as have been found by experiment to give the greatest strength; the figure is fine and uniform."
This HAS to be what he refers to as Laminated Steel!

ellenbr....ask Highsmith his thoughts on Greener.

I see. I was referring to the nominal speed of sound and was thinking of the wave of a laser beam in a vacuum with an index of refraction of 1. My error. What is the max velocity that the expanding gas accelerates the shot charge down the tubes? Well, at the barrel/outside interface does the shot charge have the greatest velocity? I am interested as to how the speed of the whole lot of wad(possibly a little powder) & shot makes the transition from below the speed of sound to a velocity greater than the speed of sound. Doesn't the group velocity of the shotstring travel near or above 345 meters per second, or am I mistaken? Thanks for taking the time to educate me.

JOe: I quizzed Mr. Highsmith about the Brits Damascus & the impact of the Moor's influence on barrel types. His response was that I need to forgot researching such an unpopular & worthless topic and research something worth while like the Limey's Whitworth steel. And much like Jackie Gleason's response to a "germane to the situation", Mr. Highsmith said that the Moors were G**D*** Rednecks and don't bring them up again.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"This is a fascinating thread, and I don't know where it will lead.Richard Akehurst in his book 'Game Guns & Rifles' by the Sportsmans Press has a lot to say about the manufacture of Damascus, he mentions Greener's and the Birmingham Proof Houses Tests and concerns about 'inferior' Belgian wares.Ken Davies's H&H book 'The Better Shot' shows some gorgeous examples.Remember Iron Forging was perfected by my family (Big Head)here in the Severn Gorge ( Ironbridge)so I think our Museums may have some interesting data available. But where do we start? It must be remembered that Greener was a master of self publicity, did he do so much? or did he ride on the backs of many journeymen craftsmen who were only concerned with earning a crust?There is no doubt in my mind we owe a lot to Greeners for imparting the knowledge, but was there far more works of art lost in time?Or sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury? "


Thanks for a different perspective and insight. Greener probably would have made an excellent politician. Can you provide any references or descriptions with a timeline of the different Damascus types of the names you mention?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ideal. Then that would equate Silver Steel Damascus to Laminated Steel and the old laminated steel would have been similar to 2 rib-band twist after experiencing the 3 ton forge hammer?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That's how I interpret Greener's statements going back to 1835.
BUT as much as I hate to bring this up, in the original Birmingham Proof House test of 1891, as published in The Field, BOTH "Laminated Damascus" (British and Foreign-no doubt Belgian) AND "Laminated Steel" are described. The illustration of each, which is found in Double Gun Classics http://www.doublegunclassics.com/alt/DGCJanFeb06.pdf
sure looks similar.

revdocdrew:

Bring it up!! Leave not 1 stone unturned. I want the plain, unvarnished, non-sugar coated info. I would like the info to be accurate. If we can gain momentum, we can assemble info that will be very valuable for defining barrel types. Now you are in 1891, several years into the Damascus future. What page is it on? Can you compare it to "Modern Breech-Loaders" and/or "The Gun, 1834"? I will pass thru Memphis next week & I may borrow a copy to verify.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It starts on p. 26 (with some neat damascus examples on the way )

Highsmith thought Greener the Herters of England.

revdocdrew:

A "twist" in the laminae of steel definition: "...it is advisable to state here that, so far as known, the strongest forged or twist barrel is the laminated steel now usually termed "stub-Damascus," made of three twisted rods to the riband.

The word laminated, as the designation of a gun barrel, arose from the fact that early in the last century thin strips, plates, or laminae of steel, piled alternately with iron strips or plates, formed the composite metal from which they were made. The differ from Damascus in so far as the iron and steel are differently arranged in the pile, so that instead of a decided curl in the figure there is only what may be termed "herring-bone" lines running spirally round the barrel from end to end. Technically, laminated steel is a name metallurgists apply to faulty steel. It has been used in the gun trade for more than half a century in quite a different sense, as here stated." Greener - "The Gun" 9th edition, p. 239.

I re-read the portion of chapter X dealing with gun barrels. It seems that there are possibly 1/2 dozen laminated definitions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"possibly 1/2 dozen laminated definitions."

Indeed

revdocdrew:

You may have to rename the topic to "Damascus unexplained" or "Damascus Opaque". I believe that the definition of "Laminated" above is very similar to the definition in "Modern Breech-Loaders: Sporting & Military".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Perhaps this will shed some light on the origins of Damascus steel. I have enjoyed following this thread.

skatr2



History of Science and Technology in Islam






The Arabic Origin of Liber de compositione alchimiae


The Origin of Damascus Steel In Arabic Sources [1]

1. Introduction

The main function of this paper is to make available to historians generally a selected number of passages in Arabic medieval literature (some of which were hitherto unpublished) which bear upon ferrous technology. There are other numerous sources which are not cited here. Thus, this paper is not exhaustive in this respect. For each source, an English translation is presented followed by the Arabic text.

Thus, Section 2 below quotes al-Kindi on the location of steel centers, and Section 3 gives al-Biruni's description of Damascene crucible steel production. The following section from al-Jildaki describes what seems to be the production of pig iron and cast steel, and so on.

The review of sources concludes with Section 8. No attempt is made to draw general conclusions, except that the evidence adduced seems ample to demolish the commonly held notion that Damascene steel was produced only or mainly from Indian wootz steel, or that Damascus was not a center for producing steel. Section 8 locates iron mines in the Damascus region, and documents the persistence of the ferrous industry there down to modern times.

2. AI-Kindi on Sources and Centers of Production

Among the extant works of Abu Yusuf b. lshaq al-Kindi (fI. 850), "the philosopher of the Arabs", is "A Treatise (Addressed) to some of His Brethren Concerning Swords" رسالة إلى بعض إخوانه في السيوف The treatise contains much useful technological information. But we shall be content in this paper to give al-Kindi's classification of the various kinds of iron and steel from which swords were being made. The passages below have been excerpted from this treatise [2]

Natural and not-natural iron:

“Learn that iron from which swords are forged is divided into two primary or main divisions: natural (as mined) and not-natural (i. e. manufactured). Natural iron is divided into two divisions: shaburqan شابورقان and it is the male, hard iron which can be heat-treated قابل للسقي by its nature, and narmahin (narm-ahin), which is the female soft iron which cannot be heat-treated by its nature. [Swords] can be forged from either of these two kinds or from both combined. Thus, aIl kinds of swords made of natural iron fall into three kinds: shaburqani, narmahani, and those made of a combination of both.”

اعلم أن الحديد الذي تطبع منه السيوف ينقسم قسمين أولين: إلى المعدني والذي ليس بمعدني، والمعدني ينقسم قسمين: إلى الشابورقان وهو المذكر الصلب القابل للسقي بطباعه، والى النرماهن وهو المؤنث الرخو الذي ليس بقابل للسقي بطباعه ، وقد يطبع من كل واحد من هذا الحديد مفردا ومنهما معا مركبين. فجميع أنواع السيوف المعدنية ثلاثة الشابورقانية والنرماهنية والمركبة منهما.

Not-natural or manufactured iron or steel:

"Iron which is not natural (i.e. manufactured) is steel or fuladh فولاذ . 1t means the refined or purified المصفّى. It is made of natural iron by adding to it while smelting sorne (ingredients) for purifying it, and for decreasing its softness, until it becomes strong, flexible, susceptible to heat treatment, and until its firind فرند appears.” [3]

فأما الحديد الذي ليس بمعدني فهو الفولاذ ومعناه المصفا ، ويصنع من المعدني بأن يلقى عليه في السبك شيء يصفيه ويشد رخاوته حتى يصير متينا لدنا يقبل السقي ويظهر فيه فرنده.

Three main qualities of steel:

“This steel is divided into three divisions: the antiqueالعتيق, the modem المحدث , and the non-antique, non-modern. Swords may be forged from all these steels. Thus, there are three kinds of swords: the antique, the modern, and the non-antique, non-modern.”

وهذا الفولاذ ينقسم إلى ثلاثة أقسام إلى العتيق والمحدث والى لا عتيق ولا محدث وقد يطبع من هذه جميعا السيوف. فانواع السيوف الفولاذية ثلاثة: عتيق ومحدث ولا عتيق ولا محدث.

"Antique" means top quality steel:

" Antique is not related to time (or age) but it indicates the noble or the generous qualities, as when it is said "an antique horse" meaning a noble horse (of good breed). That (sword) which has the noble qualities is "antique", no matter in which age it was forged. At the extreme end of the "antique" is its opposite in meaning, I mean that (sword) which is deprived of the qualities of the "antique". That is why it was given an opposite name, i. e. modern, even if was forged before the time of `Ad [4]. Those (swords) which have sorne qualities of the "antique", but which are deprived of sorne of its qualities, are the swords which exhibit sorne of the qualities of the "modern". Therefore, these swords are given a name in the middle between both, and they are classified as non-antique, non-modem even if they are forged in ancient or modern times. Sword- makers called some of these swords "non-antique", and called some others "non-modern".

ولم تذهب من عتقها إلى الزمان بل إنما تذهب من عتقها إلى الكرم كما يقال فرس عتيق يراد به كريم. فما لحقته خواص الكرم فهو عتيق في أي دهر طبع. والطرف الأبعد من العتيق هو ضده في المعنى أعني ما عدم خواص العتيق فلذلك سمي بضد اسمه أعني محدث وان كان قد طبع قبل زمن عاد. وأما الآخذة بعض خواص العتيق وحارمة بعض خواصه فهي التي وجد فيها بعض خواص المحدث فسميت أيضا باسم متوسط بين الاسمين فقيل ليس بعتيق ولا محدث وان كان متقدم الزمان أو حديثه؛ فاختص الصياقلة لها اسم لا عتيق في بعضها ولا محدث في بعضها.

Three kinds of "antique" or quality swords:

“The antique are divided into three kinds. The first and best in quality of all is the Yemenite; the second is the Qal`i قلعي [5]; and the third is the Indian.”

فالعتيق ينقسم ثلاثة أقسام أولها وأجودها اليماني ثم ثانيها القلعي ثم ثالثها الهندي.

Swords forged from imported steel:

Some swords were called non-native غير مولّد. They were forged from imported steel. Some Khurasani swords for example were forged from steel imported from Sarandib; and this is the case in several other cities.

Swords forged from local iron:

“As for those native swords مولّدة, they fall into five kinds. Of these are the Khurasani, the iron which is produced and forged in Khurasan; the Basriyya, the iron of which is produced and forged at Basra; the Damascene, the iron of which is produced and forged at Damascus; the Egyptian, which is forged in Egypt. Swords in this category may be forged in other places like those of Baghdad, of Kufa, and a few other places, but are not attributed to such places because of their scarcity. These are all the types of swords which are made from manufactured iron, I mean from steel.”

وأما المولدة فتنقسم خمسة أقسام. منها الخراسانية وهي ما عمل حديده وطبع بخراسان. ومنها البصرية وهي ما عمل حديده وطبع بالبصرة. ومنها الدمشقية وهي ما عمل حديده وطبع بدمشق قديما. ومنها المصرية وهي ما طبع بمصر. وقد يطبع في مواضع غير هذه كالبغدادية والكوفية وغير ذلك من المواضع القليلة ولا تنسب اليها لقلتها. فهذه جميع أنواع السيوف المذكورة من الحديد المعمول أعني الفولاذ.

3. Al-Biruni on Damascus Crucible Steel

The next passage is from Kitab al-Jamahir fi ma`rifat al-jawahir الجماهر في معرفة الجواهر (A Compendium of Mineralogy( written by the celebrated savant, Abu al-Rayhan al-Biruni (973 -1048). Two main manuscripts were consulted. The first is Ms. Topkapi 2047 from Istanbul, and the other is Ms. Casiri 905 from the Escorial. Similarly, the book printed in Hyderabad was also consulted (Kitab al-Jamahir, edited by E. Krenkow, Hyderabad, 1936/37). Al-Biruni says:

“Mazyad b.`Ali, the Damascene blacksmith, wrote a book describing swords that were specified in al-Kindi's treatise. He commenced by dealing with the steel composition and the construction of the furnace (kur) as weIl as with the construction and design of crucibles, the description of (the varieties) of clay, and how to distinguish between them. Then he instructed that in each crucible five ratls of horseshoes and their nails should be placed, which are made of narmahin, as well as a weight of ten dirhams each of rusukhtaj روسختج , golden marcasite stone المرقشيشا الذهبي and brittle magnesia. The crucibles are plastered with clay and placed inside the furnace (kur). They are filled with charcoal and they (the crucibles) are blown upon with rumi bellows. each having two operators, until it (the iron) melts and whirls. Bundles صررare added containing ihlilaj (myrobalan), pomegranate rinds, salt (used in) dough, and oyster shells أصداف اللؤلؤ , lit. pearl shells, in equal portions, and crushed, each bundle weighing forty dirhams. One (bundle) is thrown into each crucible; then it (the crucible) is blown upon violently for an hour. Next, they (the crucibles) are left to cool, and the eggs are taken from the crucibles.”

ولمزبد بن علي الحداد الدمشقي كتاب في وصف السيوف الني اشتملت رسالة الكندي على أوصافها. ابتدأ العمل بنصاب الفولاذ وصنعة الكور وعمل البواطق ورسومها وصنعة أطيانها ثم أمر أن يجعل في كل بوطفة خمسة أرطال من نعال الدواب ومساميرها المعمولة من النرماهن ومن كل واحد من الروسختج والمرقشيشا الذهباني والمغنيسيا الهشة وزن عشرة دراهم ويطين البواطق وتودع الكور وتملأ فحما وينفخ عليها بالمنافخ الرومية كل منفاخ برجلين الى أن تذوب وتدور وقد أعد له صررا فيها اهليلج وقشر رمان وملح العجين وأصداف اللؤلؤ بالسوية مجرشة في كل صرة أربعين درهما يلقى في كل بوطفة واحدة. ثم ينفخ عليها نفخا شديدا بلا رحمة ثم تترك حتى تبرد وتخرج البيضات عن البواطق.

4. Al-Jildaki (commenting on Jabir ibn Hayyan) Discusses Pig Iron and Cast Steel

lt was found that Ms. no. 4121 of the Chester Beatty Library, contains a part of Kitab al-Hadid (The Book of lron) of Jabir ibn Hayyan, that is given in the course of a commentary by al-Jildaki (fi. c. 1339 -42). The following text from this Ms. is of great significance for the history of metallurgy:

“Chapter: Learn, brother, that it is your comrades who found (from founding, melt metal يسكبون) iron in foundries (especially) made for that purpose after they have extracted it (the ore) from its mine as yellow earth intermingled with barely visible veins of iron. They place it in founding furnaces designed for smelting it. They install powerful bellows on all sides of them after having kneaded (يلتّون) a little oil and alkali into the ore. Then fire is applied to it (the ore), together with cinders (الجمر) and wood. They blow upon it until it is molten, and its entire substance جسمه وجسده is rid of that earth. Next, they cause it to drop through holes like (those of) strainers, (made in) the furnaces أكوار so that the molten iron is separated, and is made into bars from that soil. Then they transport it to far lands and countries. People use it for making utilitarian things of which they have need.

As for the steel workers, they take the iron bars and put them into founding-ovens مسابك which they have, suited to their objectives, in the steel works. They install firing equipment أكوار into them (the ovens) and blow fire upon it (the iron) for a long while until it becomes like gurgling water. They nourish it with glass, oil, and alkali until light appears from it in the fire and it is purified of much of its blackness by intensive founding, night and day. They keep watching while it whirls for indications until they are sure of its suitability, and its lamp emits light; Thereupon, they pour it out through channels so that it cornes out like running water. Then, they allow it to solidify in the shape of bars or in holes made of clay fashioned like large crucibles. They take out of them refined steel in the shape of ostrich eggs, and they make swords from it and helmets, lance heads, and all tools.” (see Arabic text below)

From these two descriptions it seems safe to state that the first process describes the production of pig iron (or cast iron), and that the second one describes the production of cast steel from pig iron.

5. lron Foundries in Damascus in the Twelfth and Thirteenth Centuries

Reference to iron foundries in Damascus in medieval times can be found in Arabic literature. Thus, in the book $ubh al-a`sha (Cairo: Ministry of Culture) by al-Qalqashandi (d. 1418), when discussing government departments in Damascus during the Ayyubid dynasty (1171-1250), the foIlowing statement occurs (vol. 4, p. 188):

“Of these are several smaIl military departments شدود such as the department of foundries شدّ المسابك for iron, copper, glass, and others.”

ومنها ....شدود صغار متعددة كشد المسابك من الحديد والنحاس والزجاج وغير ذلك.

Then, (on p. 190), al-Qalqashandi speaks about departments of the civil service in Damascus and says:

“Of these is the civil department of foundries نظر المسابك and the executive in charge of this department is the counterpart of the officer in charge of the military department of foundries شدّ المسابك who was mentioned above when dealing with military officers (men of the sword). “

The History of Damascus City ناريخ مدينة دمشق (Damascus: Arab Academy of Science,1954) by Abu al-Qasim `Ali ibn al-Hasan, known as Ibn `Asakir (d.1177), mentions (vol. 2, p. 58) the sites of iron foundries in Damascus.

6. Distinction between lndian and Damascus Steels in Arabic Literature

Zayn al-Din al-Dimashqi al-Jawbari(d.1232) wrote his book A Selective Book on Revealing Secrets المختار في كشف الاسرار ( printed Damascus, 1302 H) as a guidebook on how to discover cheating methods adopted by various trades and crafts. Chapter eight is on "revealing secrets of manufacturers of arms ". The following passage occurs (p. 61):

“They have a prescription for a (good) cutting sword: Indian steel or Damascus steel is taken and a sword is made of these steels which is strong (thick) in the middle and thin at the edges, with evenness such that no place is stronger than the other. Then, if it is heat-treated with the above-mentioned water, nothing can oppose it.”

ولهم صفة سيف قاطع: يؤخذ فولاذ هندي أو دمشقي فيعمل منه سيف قوي الوسط رقيق الجوانب متساويا لا يكون موضع أقوى من موضع ثم يسقى من الماء المتقدم ذكره سابقا فانه لا يقف قدامه شيء .

The passage below shows that the term "Damascus steel" was current during the fourteenth century. The quotation is from a manual on quality control by Dia' al-Din Muhammad al-Qurashi, known as Ibn al- Uhkuwwa, (d. 1329). The book is Ma`alim al-qurba fi ahkam a-hisba معالم القربة في أحكام الحسبة ( ed. Reuben Levy, Cambridge, 1938; repr. Baghdad, Muthanna), p. 224:

“An honest and trustworthy (individual) from among them (the artificers) is chosen (as inspector). He prevents (them) from mixing steel needIes with (those made of) armahan (soft iron, narmahin) for, when sharpened, they may be taken for those made from Damascus steel. Therefore each quality should be separate from the other, and he should take an oath from the artisans to follow these regulations. ”

يعرف عليهم رجلا ثقة أميتا من أهل صناعتهم يمنعهم أن يخلطوا الإبر الفولاذية مع الارمهان لأنها إذا سنت جاز أن تختلط بالفولاذ الدمشقي بل يكون كل صنف منها على حدته ويحلف الصناع على ذلك.

7. The Firind or the "Damask" Pattern on Blades

All Islamic swords that were made from "Damascus steel" or from steels of similar quality showed the peculiar pattern that was referred to in Arabic literature as firind or "jawhar" فرند ، جوهر. The processes of producing steels in crucibles were practiced in Islamic lands mostly from native iron ores as we have shown above.

From al-Kindï's treatise, we learn that the "Damask" pattern or Firind الفرند or jawhar الجوهر is found in all manufactured steels. According to him, swords made from natural steels (non-manufactured, Shaburqan) have no pattern or "firind". When speaking about the firind of swords made from natural steel, al-Kindï states:

“These swords show no firind when treated with tarh [6] طرحor when treated otherwise, and aIl their iron is one colour.”

وهذه السيوف لا فرند لها في طرح ولا غيره وحديدها كله لون واحد

On the other band, aIl swords made from manufactured steel show the "firind" in varions degrees. Al-Kindi describes the "firind" or pattern of all types of manufactured steels and of swords produced in various localities in Islamic lands, and of Indian steel.

Al-Biruni in his above mentioned book (al-jamahir) gives a very interesting interpretation of the cause behind the formation of the firind or pattern in steels. It is due, in his opinion, to the incomplete mixing of two components of steel in the crucible: soft iron (narmahin) and its water (dus دوص):

"As to (iron) which is made from narmahin and its water which flows before it when it gets rid (of its impurities), it is caIled fuladh فولاذ (steel).

وأما المركب من النرماهن ومن مائه وهو الذي يسبقه الى الجريان عند التخليص فهو الفولاذ

Then he states:

“Fuladh (steel) in its composition is of two types. Either all that is in the crucible, narmahin and its water, is melted equally so that they become united in the mixing operation and no component can be differentiated or seen independently, and such steel is suitable for files and similar tools (and one may imagine that shaburqan is of such type and of a natural quality suited to hardening); or the degree of melting of the contents of the crucible varies, and thus the intermixing between both components is not complete, and the two components are shifted يتجاوز and thus each of their two colours (components) can be seen by the naked eye and it is called firind.” [7]

وحال الفولاذ في تركيبه على قسمين اما أن يذاب ما في البوطقة من النرماهن ومائه ذوبا سواء يتحدان به فلا يستبين أحدهما من الاخر ويستصلح للمبارد وأمثالها ، ومنه يسبق الى الوهم أن الشابورقان من هذا النوع وبصنعة طبيعية تقبل لها السقي؛ واما أن يخلف ذوب ما في البوطقة فلا يكمل الامتزاج بينهما بل يتجاوز اجزاؤهما فيرى كل جزء من لونيهما على حدة عيانا ويسمى فرندا.

AI-Biruni gives his definition of the two components of steel (which give rise to the firind) at the very beginning of the chapter on iron and he states:

“Narmahin is divided ...into two types. One is (narmahin) itself, and the other is its water which flows from it when it is melted and extracted from stones, and it is called dus دوص, in Persian it is called astah, and in the area of Zabilstan, ru رو, because of its speed of flow and because it overtakes iron when it is flowing. It is solid, white, and tends to be silvery.”

ثم ينقسم النرماهن ... الى ضربين أحدهما هو والاخر ماؤه السائل منه وقت الاذابة والتخليص من الحجارة ويسمى دوصا وبالفارسية استه وبنواحي زابلستان رو لسرعة خروجه وسيقه الحديد فب الجريان. وهو صلب أبيض يضرب الى الفضية.

Al-Biruni’s interpretation of the cause of the firind or pattern in Damascus steel is reminiscent of the modern interpretation of modern historians of metallurgy who were studying the secret of Damascus steel for the last two centuries.[8]

8. Iron Mines in the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon Ranges

The Geographer, Shams al-Din Abu `Abd Allah al-Maqdisi (also known as al-Muqaddasi, d. c. 1000), in Ahsan al-taqasim fi ma`rifat al-aqalim أحسن التقاسيم في معرفة الأقاليم (Leiden: Brill, 1906; repr. Baghdad, Muthanna), p. 184, when speaking about iqlim al-Sham (i. e. Syria) states that there were iron mines in the mountains of Beirut.

وبه معدن الحديد في جبال بيروت.

In like manner, al-Idrisi (d. c. 1160) in Nuzhat al-Mushtaq fi Ikhtiraq al-Afaq نزهة المشتاق في اختراق الافاق (see Eilhard Wiedemann, Aufsötze zur arabischen Wissenschaftsgeschichte, vol. 1, p. 740) reports that iron ore in large quantities was being mined in the vicinity of Beirut and transported to all parts of Syria.

The famous travel account, Rihlat Ibn Battuta رحلة ابن بطوطة (Beirut, Sadir, 1964), contains a remark by the author (p.62) to the effect that when he stopped over in Beirut in 1355, iron was being exported from there to Egypt:

ثم سرنا الى مدينة بيروت ... ويجلب منها الى ديار مصر الفواكه والجديد

Dawud Ibn `Umar al-Antaki (d. 1599) in his Tadhkira تذكرة داود الانطاكي (Cairo, n.d., p. 111) defines iron and describes the manufacture of steel from soft (female) iron in crucibles. He states that iron originates from Sham (i. e. greater Syria), Persia, and Veniceز

ويتولد بالشام وفارس والبندقية

In the eighteenth century (between 1792 and 1798), the German traveller, U. I. Seetzen, in his Reisen (Berlin, 1854), Bd, 1, pp. 145, 188-191, reported that the ferrous industry in the Lebanese mountains was still flourishing. Operations involving mining, smelting, and the fabrication of steel implements were in full swing.

In the nineteenth century, W. M. Thomson, who lived in Syria, refers in his book The Land and the Book (London, 1886) to iron in the Lebanese mountains and to iron ore mining and smelting, which operations were still going on in about 1834.

In 1921, I. M. Toll wrote a paper on the Mineral Resources of Syria (Engineering and Mining Journal, vol. 112, 1921, p. 846) with a map showing the iron ore deposits. He describes the quality of iron ores and the locations of iron ore mining which was still going on in some localities. He states, however, that smelting of iron in the mountains of Lebanon came to an end in about 1870 due to scarcity of wood and fuel and the low price of imported iron.

9. Concluding Remarks

The selections presented above represent only a small portion of the Arabic sources bearing on the history of steel technology. Even so, they raise the question of how it came to be generally accepted that the role of Damascus was that of a commercial distribution center only.

The answer seems to be somewhat as follows. As the industrial revolution got underway early in the nineteenth century, European steel makers sought to emulate the quality of Damascus blades and that of the "wootz" steel then being imported into Britain from India. It was natural that their investigations should focus upon regions where the techniques were then known to be actively practiced, especially India. Thus, Syria and other Islamic lands came to be ignored. The literature on the subject of Damascus steel is considerable. The interested reader will find much of it referred to in Cyril S. Smith's A History of Metallography (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1960). Curiously enough, Smith makes no mention of the work of Eilhard Wiedemann, who in Beitrage XXIII and XXV of Aufsätze zur arabischen Wissenschaftsgeschichte (Hildesheim - New York: Georg Olms Verlag, 1970) gives German translation of numerous passages from Arabic material.



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Note: All bibliographies are given within the text of the article



[1] This paper is an edited version of our article « Iron and Steel Technology in Medieval Arabic Sources », Journal for the History of Arabic Science, Vol. 2, Number 1, May 1978, Aleppo, pp. 31-43.

[2] These passages are based mainly on Ms. Ayasofya 4832, folios. 170-172. See also: `Abd al-Rahman Zakï, al-Suyuf wa Ajnasuha", an edited Arabic text, Faculty of Arts Journal, vol. 14, part 2, Cairo, 1952; Hammer-Purgstall, Baron de, "Sur les Lames des Orientaux", Journal Asiatique, Ve Serie, tome III, pp. 66 -80, Paris, 1854.

[3] Firind is the pattern that characterizes Damascus steel swords.

[4] `Ad - is an ancient tribe, frequently mentioned in the Qur’an. It was said to have been a mighty nation that lived immediately after the time of Noah.

[5] Qal`i : This steel is referred to "Qal`a", a place wbich is difficult to locate. Some sources of Arabic literature assume that it was in Arabia; other sources assume that it was in Syria; while others assume it was in North India, or in the Indian Ocean, and so on.

[6] Tarh referrs here to the drug (mixture of materials) that is used to treat the surfaces of swords to show their firind or pattern.

[7] For the modern interpretation of the cause of the firind see Cyril S. Smith, A History of Metallugraphy, Chicago, 1960. pp.14-24







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MS. Chester Beatty 4121, folios 1v -2r







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Wow skatr-thank you!

So what do we (sorta) know about Laminated Steel?

From English Sporting Guns and Accessories by Macdonald Hastings - "The gunmaker Rigby of Dublin, made the first Damascus barrels; but they did not come into general use untill after 1825. Prior to that, barrels were twisted out of horse shoe nails. Damascus barrels (only remotely to do with the place called Damascus) were worked into their beautiful herring-bone patterns by the mingling of iron and steel. Even the new barrels were only reluctantly accepted by the sportsman." This may be the first description of Laminated Steel barrels.

The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms 1st Edition 1835 by W.W. Greener
Discussed Silver Steel and Mr Wiswoulds Iron, the description of which suggests early Laminated steel.

The Science of Gunnery, as Applied to the Use and Construction of Fire-Arms, 1841, may be W.W. Greener’s description of his claim for inventing Laminated Steel - "I have had as high as three-fourths of steel to one of iron, and where proper attention is paid to clipping of the steel to pieces, corresponding with the (horse-nail) stubs, and properly mixing the whole (into a 'bloom' of molten metal), welding (in an air furnace) and forging by the heavy hammer, reducing by a tilt ditto, and rolling down to the…rod, a most excellent, tenacious, and dense body of iron is obtained; while, by cutting into lengths of 6 inches, bundling a number together, and re-welding them into a bar, you gain an increased density and tenacity…rendering it…considerably more powerfully strong than any explosive fluid ever yet compounded could burst…"

Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886
"Laminated steel barrels differ but slightly from those known as 'Damascus.' The former were first made by Mr. W. Greener (senior), of Birmingham, about 1850, and were composed of three parts steel and one part iron. At the present time the best English damascus, as well as laminated steel barrels, contain over 60% of the harder metal, and there is little perceptible difference between Damascus and a laminated Damascus barrel, as both are of very similar workmanship and materials.

The Birmingham Proof House Test of 1891 as published in The Field included barrels described as:
1. Belgian and English Laminated Damascus
2. Machine-forged English Best Laminated Steel, 3-Rod and 2-Rod
3. English hand-forged 3-Rod Best Laminated Steel

In the 9th edition of The Gun, William Wellington Greener stated that he used Best Silver Steel, but in earlier editions referred to Silver Damascus. He also compared ‘Old-fashioned laminated steel (75% steel), ‘Modern Laminated Steel' (60% steel), and ‘Laminated Damascus.’

Some c.1870s Parker Hammer Lifter barrels are marked "Twist" on the top rib, but are clearly laminated steel. The Parker 1899 catalog lists "Fine Laminated Steel" for Quality I & H hammer guns, which is a grade below the "Fine Damascus" used on Quality G guns. It is likely One or Two Rod "Laminated Damascus" of either an English or Belgian source.
The 1888 Colt Patent Firearms catalog also has a quality gradation from Twist to "Laminated" to Damascus and Hunter Arms used “Laminated Steel” on Quality No. 1 L.C. Smith guns 1892-1898.

Nice addition to the discussion. So, now we know where the "stub" horseshoe nail, and horseshoe, mixture originated. Was that in Damascus or Beriut? I'm pleased to see that many are reading and taking an interest.

So skatr2, do you speak Arabic and is that the language that you also posted?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey - There are three distinct sets of gas involved in a gun discharge. So far, I have been speaking of the gas evolving from the powder burn. It is hot enough that the speed of sound in it will be higher than we normally associate with gun discharge velocities. The second gas set is the air in the barrel in front of the wad. It will be compressed by the discharge, but much will flow out of the barrel prior to the shot exceeding its sonic velocity. The third set is the air outside the barrel. It will have typical sonic velocity.

The shot in the barrel will acclelrate to some velocity based on pressure of the powder gas on the wad base, friction of the wad/shot to barrel, and back pressure of the air in front of the wad. The powder gas can't flow at supersonic speed without passing through a nozzle, but doesn't need to as it can flow fast enough at subsonic (for it) speeds to achieve the needed shot velocities. The air in front of the shot is simply pushed out and we know that its compressive pressure is less than the pressure of the powder gas as shot loads continue to accelerate in long barrels. As the shot load exits into the ambient air, it may well be above the sonic speed of that air. Remember, sonic speed depends on temperature of the gas (air). As the shot charge exits the muzzle, a sonic shock wave will form on the bow of the charge and will trail away from it until the charge drops below sonic velocity. Muzzle velocities for shotguns typically range from 900 fps (slow) to 1500 fps (very fast). Typical sonic velocity of ambient air at the earth's surface is around 1100 fps.

How fast? Well, as I recall the limit for powder gas in a barrel is around 10,000 fps. If you need to go faster, you need a rocket or a rail gun.

Again, if that is not clear, ask questions - I should be able to explain this.

Excellent description. You must be a Rocket Scientist as I had many post grad classes with folk destined to work in that area for MICOM(ARDEC(?)) on Redstone Arsenal. So what is the peak temperature in the barrels & is it a linear or non-linear relation to the sonic velocity? Last, typically, where will the shotcharge experience the highest velocity(1/2 way down the tube, 3/4s the way, just outside the tube)?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The peak temperature will be within the shotshell hull and will occur during the time of peak pressure. The pressure will peak within the first couple of inches of shot travel; usually early within this period. Shot acceleration is directly tied to pressure, so the peak acceleration will be very early in the shot travel. Peak velocity, however, will occur at the muzzle as the shot continues to accelerate all the way down the barrel; at least for useful barrel lengths. The acceleration is down to around 20-40 additional fps in the last few inches. If you were to make a long enough barrel, the friction forces and air back pressure would eventually equal the force of the powder gs pressure and the shot would stop accelerating; longer and the shot would actually slow down.

Speed of sound in a gas is typically related to the square root of the temperature; higher temperature equal higher speed of sound. So, it is non-linear.

So, the first derivative of velocity has a practical application almost everywhere even, in the realm of hunting/shooting. Back to a Damascus type question: will the effect of the shotstring/wad reaching the sonic velocity at the muzzle have any different effect on Damascus versus fluid steel, for useful barrel lengths? Thanks for your time, Rocketman.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"So, the first derivative of velocity has a practical application almost everywhere even, in the realm of hunting/shooting." Yes, indeed and boy howdy it does!

The first appearance of a sonic shock wave is outside the muzzle, so there is no influence on the barrel, whether steel or damascus. Good question, IMO. Questions?

Rocketman:

Excellent, excellent exchange of information of my rambling questions and your precise, descriptive answers. I was deeply curious as I am trying to develop a particle model of the shotstring exiting the tubes. Currently, Roster seems to be a hot topic, but I had quizzed him and he inferred that it would be quite difficult. Many Thanks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for the kind words. Glad to share any info in my posession.

While I agree with Roster that your model would be difficult, let me add a bit of fuel to the fire. IMO, shot acts as a fluid in the choke constriction. That is, it is experiencing internal pressure due to the powder gas pressure behind it and the pressure of the air being forced out of the barrel. The shot can't support shear forces, but is confined by the barrel. As it exits the muzzle, the shot pieces "push off" of each other as the relieve the pressure they are under. Some of the "push-off" is in a sideways direction and causes pellets to depart with a small sideways velocity, along with their axiel velocity. This sideways velocity is what we see as dispersion. Further, the air trapped within the shot column is pressurized and expands as soon as the shot clear the barrel. Some of the expansion creates a "sideways" wind that also imparts some sideways velocity to the shot pieces.

Now, the good part. When a fluid flows through a constriction, such as a choke cone, the velocity must increase to maintain mass flow rate. The increase in velocity comes at the expense of pressure; the pressure drops. The drop in pressure reduces the pellet to pellet push-off and the "sideways" wind. Therefore, dispersion is reduced. We know that the velocity of the shot charge is incresed by about 1 fps per 0.001 of constriction. So, the increase in velocity is confirmed.

That could be helpful in your model.

Once again, great info. That confirms what I had in mind. The front little speed demons who take the brunt of the cone are pushed to the wayside to the outer portion of the pattern in the fringe area and begin to lag behind with a slower individual velocity. And what you've described would account for the change in the traverse direction as opposed to the longitudinal. I haven't replicated Mr. Brister’s experiment just yet. Fluids, thermo, etc. will yield a very complex model. The only thing missing is plasma.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I contacted the German Gun Collector's and inquired for any information they may have gathered for German sources of damascus or any Germanic centers that may have produced them.
They very kindly responded, with correspondence from Axel Eichendorff responding to Dietrich Apel.

In part, here is the response:


Once again the name of Manfred Saches surfaces.
So we have some dates with some more possible lines of research that will need to be followed...

Here is the book mentioned: Die Jagd-feuergewehre: Anleitung zur näheren Kenntniss U. Zum richtigen By Adolf Zimmer

Pete

Found another neat on-line book with a perspective other than Greener's

Shooting Simplified By James Dalziel Dougall 1865
http://books.google.com/books?id=BkACAAAAQAAJ&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

A variety of iron termed “silver steel” is preferable to all others.
(Unfortunately there is no description of the production process)

It will at once be seen that the necessary time taken by three workmen in this cold-hammering process very much enhances the value of fine barrels. It is in this part of the process that the continental workmen are deficient…We have great faith in English pluck and muscle. No foreigner strikes a blow upon the anvil like your English workmen…

p. 18 There are various kinds of flaws in barrels, such as “cracks”, “sand holes”, and what are technically termed “grays.” They are those little specks in the iron…from rust showing more upon them than upon the smoother surface.
(What follows is a discussion of the various barrel flaws)

Silver Steel
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel



http://www.peterstubs.com/silver.html

Pete

Thanks Pete-I just wonder what relation 2007 Silver Steel has to the stuff Greener was talking about in 1835.

With Mr. Chambers post on "America-Made Damascus", he notes p. 220(which I assume is the same in the 9th edition) for barrel info. There "The wire twist barrels - not an imitation of the figure of coiled wired-were made by Barrois of Paris at the end of last century" with Barrois & Marolles, who seems to have written a text-English translation in 1789, both being noted. William Dupein had a twist gun barrel patent in 1798. And "In 1806 J. Jones patented a method of making barrels from scelps or strips coiled a mandrel so that the edges overlapped, and then welded together at the edges of the strips. Stub barrels, made from old horse-shoe nails, were greatly in vogue at the commencement of this century." A process different from the ones in Spain or France. "The horse-shoe nail stub barrel was the first attempt to produce a figured barrel in England." "Scelp or plain rods were first twisted, afterwards the strips of the horse-shoe nail iron were twisted in like manner; and the introduction of Damascus iron followed shortly afterwards(1820)." Mr. Wiswould and Mr. Adams, both of Birmingham, were given credit.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All barrels are pattern welded, circa 1700 from India, Turkey or Persia.







Pete

As always, thanks so much Pete. It certainly appears that the barrel makers were as concerned about ornamentation as they were about utility!

And I've found a French website primarily devoted to Damascus blades http://damascus.free.fr/barrel/

Georges Emeriau has provided copies of several articles regarding Wootz. Unfortunately, the best are in French
Page web français : http://acier.damas.free.fr
English web page : http://damascus.free.fr

Anyway we could ask for this post to be FAQ'd? Too much good info just to disappear.

I am going to "cross post" this here, I already posted some of it to the American Damascus thread.

Charles Semmer's "Remington Double Shotguns". He has a chapter, though short, on damascus. Pictures of such items as Boston, Boston SJ, Washington, Ohonon, Chine damascus are all there. I have not gone over every b&w picture in the book, but he identifies a good number of patterns. The Remington Museum has a "Salesman's Rod" with sections of various damascus patterns on it. Each was clearly stamped as to the type / figure.

In that chapter Semmer suggests an interest thing. This is not primary source, but more of reminisce of Del Grego. Del Grego claimed that he remembered old time Remington employees talking about making damascus barrels and what hot work it was. Semmer suggests that Remington was not buying finished or rough tubes, but rather forged damascus billets. He further suggests that they may have had an American source.

Again, none of this is primary source and much is speculation on the part of Semmer, I believe. But it does cause me to think. Were there American sources for such a product? Were the British or Belgians exporting these? If there was a source, it would be almost impossible to trace without company records.

Certainly every American gun maker I have looked at in any depth employed a blacksmith or two. Was this part of their duties, at least in some companies?

Pete

Interesting reading, and find, in The Garland Library of the History of Art, Vol. 13, Islamic Art and Architecture, 1976.
A c. 1100 manara (minaret-tall and tubular) part of a masdjid (mosque) in Barsian (Isfahan), Iran is show in a 1934 pic



If you zoom the pic, you might be able to pic out a pattern in the bricks very similar to 'Rose Pattern' Bernard II



(Still no flying carpets jOe )

Drew,

The Garland Library of the History of Art, Vol. 13 ?? Are going through every book in the library or just the reference shelves? It would have never have occured to me to go through 13 volumes for a single picture!

Well done.

Pete

Doc didn't we put a smart bomb down that smoke stack ?

Horse shoe nails being formed into a skelp.



Pete

Excellent Pete: that mass of semi-molten stuff would be the "bloom" prior to pounding and rolling.

That "bloom" looks like something my dog left on my Persian rug.

Dogs are students of cross-cultural influences but aren't much on technology.

jack

I couldn't help it dOc....

See what yOu did dOc....yOu riled the dragon.

"Game Guns & Rifles", Richard Akehurst:

After this the trade moves to Birmingham. He also Lancaster as finisher who would purchase the tubes from Birmingham, bore and file them and sell them to the London trade. Fullerd would produce the barrels from start to finish.

Akehurst describes and names the type of steel used to make twist barrels. From best to worse: 'Stub Damascus', 'herring-bone', 'Threepenny skelp', 'Twopenny skelp' or 'Wednesbury skelp' and finally 'Sham damn skelp'.

Pete

I received my copy today of "Damaszener Stahl: Mythos, Geschichte, Technik, Anwendung" by Manfred Sachse. This 1989 13"x11" book of 253 page is devoted to Manfred's research into damascus history and it's production. Most of this well indexed book is about bladed weapons. He does, however, have a chapter exclusively on damascus barrels. Manfred is the only publish modern researcher on the subject who has spent considerable time at the avail. In addition, he set up a forge where he produced damascus faggots weighing from 3 to 5kg and even produced some as large as 1.5 tons. He has experimented with producing most of the damascus types and patterns he has observed.

Some interesting bits from the book.

In 1863 near Nydam, Denmark 2 ships were found buried in a bog containing damascus swords from the 4th to 6th century.

Francois Clouet (1751-1801) director of the Daigny steel works in France actively recruited workmen from Liege and Franchment to aid in the production of damascus barrels.

In 1798 William Dupein in England was developing a process for damascus production. The work was carried on by J. Jones who received a patent in 1806.

In 1804 Nicolas Bernard was producing damascus barrels in Versailles.

Anton Crivelli of Milan (circa 1822) was working with damascus barrels. He wrote a paper in which he mentions Nicholson, O'Reilly, Wilde of Sheffield and Clouet.

In 1828 Anossov of Russian became a major producer of damascus barrels.

In 1829 Cavaliere de Beroaldo Bianchini writes a paper about damascus barrels from Vienna.

He also mentions Juan Sanchez De Miruenna of Spain as being a producer.

He identifies the later 19th centers of production as Liege, Birmingham, St. Etienne, Suhl and Brescia. In 1906 Liege produced 850 tons of damascus barrels. Of this there were enough to make 156,000 damascus sxs shotguns.

While Liege became the center of damascus barrel production, Solingen equaled Liege as the center for damscus hilted weapons.

An observation from Sachse. Gas or Oil fired furnaces are a waste of time for damascus production, as they result in high levels of decarburization.

He defines something called "Concealed Damascus". Apparently the surface is ground until no texture or "water marks" remain.

By the way. Thanks to Doug Mann who recommended this book back at the begining of this thread. It took forever to find a copy
Pete

We have seen these images as graphics...
As soon as I get a chance, I will update these with better images. These are pictures of actual billets being assembled and formed.













The question in my mine, has been, what became of the manufacturing resources in Nessonvaux once Belgium lost it's dominance in the firearms industry. Here is part of the answer, Imperia Nessonvaux.





Pete

Excellent Pete-the first looks like 'Stars and Stripes'



And the second like Bernard II

Earlier in this thread, there was a discussion of patents related to damascus. This patent was referenced

WILLIAM ROSE of Halesowen, England
39174 - IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY AND ORNAMENTATION OF METALS
Issue date: Jul 7, 1863

Robert made a comment about machine production of damascus. Here is the segment he was referring to:



Pete

I took another look at the Ethan Allen patent, 48249.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=hTIAAAAAEBAJ&dq=48249&jtp=1

It finally dawned on me that Allen is doing something very different. Figiel shows this same technique, of splitting a solid damascus cylinder, but states that it was used during the 17th century in India.

So, Allen is re-inventing this ancient technique. One that was never used in 19th century Europe. It is truly a shame that significant production was not achieved by Allen.

Pete

Earlier in the thread Daryl H made mention of "Espingarda Perfeyta" or in English "The Perfect Gun" which was 1st published in 1718.

This is the original cover. The book is written by 3 brothers who dedicate the work to King John 5th of Portugal.


Here is a plate from the book showing workman making barrels.


They describe at least 2 methods for making barrels. The first involves a twisting of metal of various gauges to form the barrel. They also describe the "Catalan" method of spiral wrapped barrels. Two men work on the same piece-the authors stress the negative effects on accuracy of working at this strenuous trade while tired-and the tools of the trade are scattered on the ground, as well as some partially finished section. Great care is emphasized to produce the strongest barrel possible to with stand very stout loads.

A couple of thoughts. 1st this is after the siege of Vienna. They make mention of procurring steel from various city states through out Europe. 2nd Portugal would have been a natural setting for this transition of technology from the Isalmic world.

Pete

"Firearms of the Islamic World: In the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait" By Robert Elgood


This is prior to the siege of Vienna. So Hartmann is not making copies of captured arms. Elgood is unclear as to whether or not damascus barrels were being produced in Ferlach. Hartmann is nearly 65 years before Liege was producing damascus. Both Liege and Ferlach lost their lead in the manufacturing of firearms about the same and for the same reason, namely the Napoleonic wars. After the formation of Belgium and Independence was declared, Liege once again resumed it's old production volumes.

Pete

Pete, the illustration of the Damascus being made in Portugal is interesting . It shows the various gauges and tools used .

Daryl,

Yes it does. The brothers seem very intent on communicating the importance of those gauges. They talk about them quite a bit and went so far as to have them illustrated as you point out.

Language becomes confusing as I dig further back. They seem to use "Catalan" as their term damascus barrels. Others site this book and use Catalan to denote the locking mechanism. Certainly when referring to Eibar, Catalan is used for their (Spanish) enhanced flintlock. Actually the term Misquelet is used to describe the type of firearm being produced by some.

I am still not clear at what point the Italians come into this picture. They were certainly a player at this early stage. Just can't find enough documentation yet. There is a book, "Brescian Firearms: From Matchlock to Flintlock - A Compendium of Names, Marks & Works Together with an Attempt at Classification" by Nolfo de Carpegne that may be of some help.

I just have to be careful to not get caught up by lock development.

Pete