While shooting sporting clays yesterday I ran out of RSTs shells for my 1882 WC Scott hammer gun. I was on the 2nd to last station so I grabbed some low recoil 1oz Herters to finish the round. To my surprise, the Herters kicked way less than the RSTs (quieter too). They also run run about 1/2 the price. So I'm thinking about using them regularly but was wondering about the PSI on these shells... The 1oz, low-recoil, 1060 fps shells. After shooting them, I would guess them to be very low. But how suitable are they for vintage guns?

The gun I was shooting is a pretty stout piece. .044 thickness on 30" damascus barrels, 7 1/2 lbs, dolls head ext, etc. Chambers appear to have been opened to 2 3/4". The gun is perfect for sporting clays.

Any opinions and insight would be much appreciated.

Adam

According to this older post, it seems like someone had them tested and they were in the neighborhood of 9K PSI. I was one of the unlucky many unable to purchase at 27.99 per flat so no direct experience. Ha.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=425363&page=2

I wouldn't use them in that gun, Adam, 9K is pretty high for damascus, IMO.

SRH

Adam's took a walk on the wild side...from what I can see she's a nice looking old girl.

A lifted Gunsinternational photo

Dreaded Damascus barrels with lengthened chambers without a reproof (with most likely a good honing er two) and 9000 psi shells ?

Wow... 9000 psi???? I sure didn't expect that from a shell that kicked so little! Oh well. What is a safe PSI to keep under for Damascus barrel? 6k?

Adam

So with a measured .044" wall thickness you guys are worried at 9K? I would not be. What is CIP for a Brit 2&1/2" shell? Very close to 9K. You have very thick walls if measured correctly.....proceed and have fun.

Herter's offers a 1 oz. Field & Target @ 1290 fps, a Select Field Dove & Quail 1 oz. at 1250 fps, and the Target LR 1 oz. @ 1060 fps.
B&P Competition One 1 oz. at 1160 fps is 6530 psi.
I suspect the 9000 psi is the Field & Target.

If the chambers have been lengthened, the wall thickness at the end of the chamber and forcing cone is critical.

I'm with Steve on this one. Nine thou is a bit high, but not egregiously so. If those tubes are indeed 44-thousandths then those shells will never come close to causing this gun a problem (barring a stuck wad, but that's any gun). Moreover, if felt recoil isn't bad then I'd not be too-concerned about the head of the stock either.

"IF" a shell loaded with 1oz of shot to 1060 FPS does indeed hit 9K psi it's going to hit it very quickly in the chamber & then fall off rapidly. I assume the .044" thickness is down the barrel. Pressure is going to be way down by that point.
What is important here is the wall thickness over the chamber & particularly where it joins the forcing cone. With the gun weighing in at 7½ lbs I'm betting it's not particularly thin here either. Assuming adequate wall thickness here in the chamber area I would not be at all concerned over a pressure of 9K with that light a load. In fact with that load I don't think I would be overly concerned as to what the actual pressure even is.

I would not shoot cheap shells in nice vintage European gun like that. I would not, however, have any problems putting them through: Parker Bros, Fox,.... Lefever or L.C. Smith with fluid steel barrels. All A.H. Fox guns had fluid steel barrels them rest you have to be careful with.

Herter's shells are Italian loaded Cheddites.

They are CIP spec shells.

While inexpensive (yay), they are not 'cheap'.

I've burned a couple thousand of them this year and they function well.

Zero failure to fire or failure to extract or eject and they burn clean.

They have to be assumed to be CIP maximum unless tested otherwise, and even then if the pressure isn't actually published by the manufacturer there is no guarantee the next lot won't be loaded with different components and/or powder.

Large producers load to velocity with non-canister powders and the products while within spec can vary quite a bit from lot to lot and year to year.

Examples would be the evolution of the Estate brand, or the ever annoying Winchester crap from Australia.

The felt recoil of the Herter was definitely less than the felt recoil of the RST 1oz. loads. That's part of the reason I was surprised to see the 9000 PSI figure... if that's correct.



I wondered if that was the case. 9000psi seemed really high for the low recoil load. I'll have a the barrel walls rechecked.



These are the wall thickness as told to me from the individual I bought the gun from. I'll have them re-measured to confirm. And I re-weighed the gun.... it's actually 7 3/4 lbs.

Come on you guys we have beaten this horse to death many times. Felt Recoil has no relationship to chamber pressure. It is calculate on weight of projectile (ejecta), velocity and weight of the gun period. If you have a question concerning chamber pressure send a sample to Tom Armbrust but remember the numbers he gives you are good for the tested lot only as ammunition manufacturers change propellants all the time and pressures may vary considerably so long as they do not exceed SAAMI or CIP published maximums.

DDA

It is calculate on weight of projectile (ejecta), velocity and weight of the gun period. This is actual recoil, not felt recoil. Felt recoil remains subjective because we can't agree on who feels what.

Yes quite true but the felt recoil is a direct result of actual recoil as interpreted by the shooters sensory perceptions what the shooter feels and felt recoil, not measured or calculated recoil, is what has been discussed in previous posts.

Herter's shells do indeed carry the CIP logo. However, that only means that they meet CIP service pressure standards. For "standard proof" loads, that figure translates to 10,730 psi as measured by transducers. Not all that different from SAAMI's 11,500 psi service pressure standard. Chances are, most CIP loads are going to be well below that, and that'd be particularly likely in the case of a 1060 fps load.

Jagermeister, the only reason you would not shoot cheap shells in any of those guns you mentioned is because you do not own any of them. In fact, you do not own even one double, yet you come here and post crap that you read somewhere else. The only shotgun you have is a short barreled Ithaca Model 37 pump, and I'm not so sure I even believe that story anymore.

Pretending to be something you're not on the internet is just sick and pathetic. You and King need some mental health counseling or electro-shock or something.

From practical point of view I never thought that C.I.P. monogram on pack of shells was relevant at all. What I mean is that light game load never approaches Avg. PMax allowed under those guidelines. In fact one could probably find US shells made to our standard with lover avg. gas pressure then some European loaded ones. In other words one can not assure that just because shell has 65mm fired case length and CIP rating it is automatically low pressure.
Anyhow one can buy light game loads loaded for Holland & Holland for less today than I bought Gamebore, Hull and Eley ones dozen or so years ago. I'm not sure who loads Holland & Holland but Westley Richards loads came from Lyalvale Cartridge Co. Naturally one can take some American pride to heart and buy shells from RST of PA? USA.

I think Sherman Bell dismissed any worries about Damascus guns blowing up with pressures in the 9000 range. If it were mine I would shoot it without a second thought. Paul

That would depend on type of damascus. For example, I remember reading in Diggory Hadokes excellent book that three strip Birmingham laminate was second in strength to Sir Joseph Whitworth fluid compressed steel. That was strong indeed. If I recall correctly the fine Belgian "Chain damascus" did not fare so well.

Neither did many varieties of "Steel" fare so well as either the laminated steel or Whitworth barrels. As I recall though few if any were so bad as to be considered "Dangerous".
The Parker G grade barrel which took on the order of 30K psi to burst was neither Whitworth fluid or Birmingham Laminated.
It was almost of a certainty made of Belgian Damascus.
Assuming the walls did not become too thin with the chamber lengthening, & with that weight of gun it's highly unlikely, I would have absolutely no qualms about shooting that 1 oz load @ 1060 FPS through them.

The fixation here seems to be strictly on the effect of pressure on the barrels.....has anyone thought about what the effect 9k psi has on the action, locking bolt, and joint?

I'm by no means a gunsmith or an engineer, but I would imagine if the barrels are sound (wall thickness, condition, etc) 9k psi isn't going to be a cause for much concern, but I would be concerned for the guns action, locking mechanisms, jointing etc. on a gun that is pushing 100+ years, or in my case a gun pushing 134 years old, I would keep the pressure down to prevent excessive wear the metal on metal joints. 9k seems to be a bit much for my taste, I much prefer to keep pressures in the 5 to 6k range.

Dustin

My first concern is stock wood failure not barrel or joint. I just don't shoot any gun that I consider the barrels to be marginal in anyway. I have too many guns and too few extra fingers. As to pressure, I do try to keep 12 loads down to 6-7,000 psi. 5k loads are great but sometimes they do not do well in cold weather. All loads are as reasonable recoil as possible. By that I mean one ounce at 1100-1150 fps. 1 1/8 or heavier loads are just not needed to me. I have modern guns to handle heavy loads. Recoil cracks stocks not pressure so keep it reasonable. If your stock is loose get it fixed because loose stocks split easier than ones which the wood to metal fit is tight.

While KY Jon only mentioned the stock the recoil is the main concern as well for the other points mentioned. Pressure is of primary concern only to the barrels & at the point it is being measured.
At 20 inches down the barrel it could care less what the maximum chamber pressure is. Lowering chamber pressure does not in & of itself make it easier on a barrel which has a thin forward section.
Load 1 oz of shot to 1060 fps @ 9K psi & 1¼ oz to 1300 fps @ 8K psi.
Both can be achieved by careful powder selection. That later load will be harder on the gun everywhere except that one short area in the chamber where the 9K is reached. One simply has to look at the total picture. While "MAX" chamber pressure is important, lowering it is not the "Cure All" for all things related to shooting a shotgun. In fact it is the cure for only a very small portion of them. Overall ballistics are far more important for most.

Well I thought I would add a bit this evening.

My 20ga damascus Flues gun has a thin spot of .018 @ 16" from the breach in the left barrel. I was really apprehensive about shooting it after this discovery, even with low pressure shells.

So, I figured what the heck, I would blow it up or shoot it. Loaded 4ea. hand loads @ 12,500psi per the IMR manual and did the string/proof/behind the tree test. I measured the barrels at a bunch of points before and after.

All is good.
Carry on. ymmv

Ouch - I have a 1894 Remington B grade with chain Damascus and a couple of friends have LC's with chain. All are shot all the time with nitro. We're all quite proud of them.

Paul;
My FE Lefever has chain damascus, I don't worry much about it either. It's wood is around 110 years old now, that would be my biggest worry, but it is still sound & has shot a good many rounds.

Not saying it is OK, but lets face it, most of our damascus guns have had hundreds if not thousands of rounds of modern off the shelf ammo through them. Plenty of it from Walmart too. they are still here with no holes in them.

I would bet that Herter's 1060 fps low recoil shell is not 9000 psi. Probably 7000 or less.
JR

That was my thought John... Sure wish I could verify this.

Adam

I added a number of 1 oz. target load ballistics at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Well . . .while you're likely safe with low pressure shells, 12,500 psi represents only a very slight pressure bump over SAAMI's current standard service pressure (max average pressure) of 12,000 psi for the 20ga. SAAMI proof loads run in the 18-19,000 psi range. Someone hearing that Damascus is safe with smokeless powder and not delving into the details might start shooting a bunch of Wal-Mart specials because they're "light loads" . . . and have a very unpleasant surprise.

First off let's establish a few facts here. At 16" from the breech those barrels can really care less what the max chamber pressure is. What they are concerned about is what the pressure is @ 16" from the breech. "IF" you take two loads of the same intensity, IE, same shot load fired to same velocity but with widely varied max chamber pressure. It is a Given that forward of the chamber area for the rest of the length of the barrel the load giving the "Low" pressure load will have higher pressures than will the low pressure load.
To "Protect" a thin area in the forward 2/3-3/4 portion of the barrel keep your shot load light & velocities moderate. Then load the fastest burning powder that will meet the criteria of desired max chamber pressure commensurate for the barrel mat'l.
Assuming that your "Proof" load @ 12,500 psi was done with at least an ounce of shot & used a slow burn powder, then you should be in fine shape with 3/4oz or no more than 7/8oz of shot with a faster powder up to about 9K psi.
IF you load 7/8-1oz of shot to a bit more velocity & lower your max pressure by going to a very slow powder you are not doing that thin spot @ 16" any favor.

It'll be a great story to tell your grandkids....

I lost my fingers when the barrel exploded on a 130 year old shotgun that had been modified by some back yard gunsmith.

Miller,
Good morning.
I watch your comments on pressure all of the time and take them to heart.

The load I used was 7/8oz @ 12500psi using IMR7625 a bit over 1200fps. Maybe I'll do it one more time with 800x and 1oz @ 11.6K.
That should keep the pressure up a bit farther out.

My load for the gun uses 20/28 powder, 3/4oz @ 6300psi and 1071fps. Almost no recoil in a sub 6lb gun. A real treat to shoot.

Thank you for the link Drew... unfortunately, the Herter shells, ones I was most interested in, did not have the PSI listed... just my luck!

Thanks again
Adam

Shoot off five to Tom Armbrust, Adam, and end the speculation once and for all. He could get them done before winter sets in if you sent them soon. He doesn't do any pressure testing once cold weather sets in there.

SRH

While I do not yet have a Demarcus gun I am interested in low pressure target and hunting loads for my double guns. I would like to load some low pressure shells using a Remington STS hull, Promo powder, and a Winchester primer. I normally use either 1oz or 1 1/8 oz Claybuster wads. Published information with these components or others would be most useful.

j born

Will require you to be more flexible with components but there are several loads here:
https://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ceretto.pdf

At the risk of repeating myself or possibly clarifying: Questions 1 through 9 should be what is the minimal wall thickness at the end of the chamber, the forcing cone, and every inch out to 9-12" of my barrels; information that Adam as yet does not have. I've seen dealers quickly run a pin gauge down one side (the thick side) of a barrel, announce the MWT as ___, and pronounce the barrels as "fine". That information is next to meaningless unless the dealer says "oops, the wall thickness at 6 inches is .030".
And I am of the opinion that in the absence of cracks in the head of the stock, any vintage gun with adequate wall thickness and tight lock-up can handle 1 oz. at 1200 fps target loads. Even better for boxlocks and farm implement Smiths if the head of the stock has been glasbedded.

As a corollary, we now have good information as to the Smokeless Powder pressures for which our turn-of-the-century doubles were designed; just use shells with similar ballistics.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Many of us choose to use lighter loads, because of our hopeless flinch, our guns are old like us, and because they are funner