The "Idle pursuit for the ideal 20 gauge" post made me remember something I'd been wrestling with earlier this year. Older guns (say 100 years plus) can be spectacular, but many do have some downsides. Ammo use is generally pretty specific (for all the usual reasons well-known to this crowd) because of old wood and tensile strength issues, but also for fit issues (too-short, too-much drop) and weight issues (usually.... too-heavy for a specific gauge). The other bugaboo is the non-toxic shot requirements.... which seem to be drawing inexorably closer for a number of us now (my condolences to you California folks). Older guns are also, in some cases, just flat worn-out from hard use and abuse, and some of that wear and abuse is hard to detect without some time afield using the gun (meaning, of course, that by then you're largely stuck with it). My mind-set has almost always been that "older is better". After recently buying an essentially "new" gun, I've been forced to reconsider some of my earlier assumptions. Old guns may have been (at some time in history) a better value, but the last big show I attended here in Denver had me seeing top-dollar (and more!) being asked for some very-tired offerings. In almost every case, the gun I was examining was going to be an extensive project to make it "fit" for my use. Perhaps older is not always better, at least not for more casual use?

I can only respond here from my own personal perspective. However I suspect much of the membership here enjoys owning and shooting vintage guns. If this weren't the case they'd just buy a Benelli or a similar current gun and use it for hunting, trap shooting or whatever other interest they may have in a firearm as a utilitarian tool. I for one routinely shoot guns that are over 50 years old and several that are over 100 years old. Having said that; I would never shoot a gun in questionable condition and if there's any doubt I'll get an additional opinion regarding usability.
One of my favorites is a W C Scott sidelock ejector that was made in 1898 putting it at 116 years old. I use suitable low pressure ammo in it and it has always functioned flawlessly.
I am currently in the process of getting a L C Smith Grade 3 that was built in 1883 back into useable condition and one of the first things I did was get the barrel wall thickness checked by someone competent to do so. It passed with flying colors so the restoration was begun.
I also shoot handguns and rifles of this vintage but since this is a double gun forum they are of little interest to to the other members.
I expect you'll be getting different perspectives on this subject for other members of this forum as well.
Jim

I have had many shotguns of all action types over the years. And many "newer" sxs as well as older ones. For me, the older ones (say pre 1920 ish) feel trimmer and sleeker than newer ones. Even higher end newer ones feel a little clunky to me. And add the nostalgia factor, which is a very important one to me as it adds greatly to my enjoyment, and I greatly prefer the old ones. Right now I shoot one made in 1866 which does certainly entail a great deal of extra care and work in the ammo realm. Finding sub 5k psi loads is very limiting. But I highly doubt I'll ever own a modern sxs again. If I want modern I will go with a nice O/U for targets or my auto for hunting.... or leave them in the safe and just enjoy the vintage!

If you are "into" classic doubles age does not matter that much. You go into it understanding the limitations before you start. True you can buy a modern double which can handle steel shot if that is what you are compelled to use. For that matter a semi auto is a much more efficient gun for killing game, three shots to two. So if forced to use steel than by all means feel free to buy new and enjoy it.

But I suspect most doubles never go into the field. I have many which have never made it into the field although I do hope to take them all one day or another. Most have seen steady use on sporting clay, trap and skeet. I had a 20 Fox which came within a hair of going 50 straight at skeet last week until she got nervous and shot over a flat low six for a 49. I forgave her and promised to take her out again. This week a 20 Flues is going and I can't wait until those full chokes grind a few clay targets. I love ink dots.

If I took a different double out to shoot every week I would still never get around to using all of them I own in a year but that does not discourage me from buying more. In many ways I think we are just caretakers for these old guns and by buying them, getting them into as good a shape as we can, keeping them is a safely stored, we are preserving a part of our heritage that future generation might wish to enjoy. If not I have had a lot of fun being wrong again and the yard sale will be a lot of fun for someone.

My go to gun is a 1924 Best Gun Belgian SLE. It fits and I shoot it well. Unlike most of my other guns it was chambered for 2 3/4 (70mm).

I occasionally shoot two other Belgian 20 ga SLE in both 2 3/4 (so marked at Reproof) and 2 1/2. I have other sxs of similar vintage, but they mostly sit.

I have never seen a 21st century sxs I could afford of similar quality and beauty.

My newest gun that I use is a 1956 superposed from my father. Anything newer I just have not gotten around to selling s I never have used them.

As for the limitations of lower power loads, I don't see them as limitations. They keep me from going stupid with more shell than needed and the lighter guns same just right as I age.

Sadly, some "classic" doubles lack a certain amount of utility. When you're planning on using an upland gun fairly regularly, or even teaching a young man about the subtile benefits of a double shotgun, it needs to be practical in all the usual ways...affordable, light, safe, dependable, & relatively easy to feed. There are some very beautiful and historic guns out there that simply don't fit those parameters.

You are right about some lacking utility. Steel shot and magnum loads come to mind. But personally I've never found one that would handle those loads that I really, really liked. Some have been ok, but not stellar. My Remington 11-87 synthetic fits me well and is very comfortable with heavy waterfowl loads so it's my go to for that if I'm on the water

I have numerous older doubles mostly 12ga guns....because I wont pay the prices asked for the vintage 20ga and smaller guns....My go to gun for most of my hunting is a single trigger Merkel 147 12ga.....If I need a 20ga for real hunting I have a Merkel 47e...also a Ithaca SKB and Hatfield Uplander.....they will handle anything up to 3in shells but 2 3/4in mags are usually my top end for 20ga....and I shoot bismuth in them if need be, but so far around here most of my small gauge upland hunting is still with lead....Also have a 16ga Hunter Arms Fulton that was owned by the late L C Smith author John Houchins for when the nostalgia mood strikes.......

Lloyd,
Know thyself. It depends entirely on what you are going to do with the gun. Once you sort out how you will be using a gun, you can make a decision on the parameters.
I think what we do up near Red Lake is pretty low stress, for guns and the guys doing it. We could use anything, front stuffers would be fine. I've been on a trip or two during pheasant season, including a memorable one in South Dakota that we stayed later than we thought because near blizzard conditions kept us there.
We kept hunting, though. Thats what pumpguns are for. Stomping in the cattails in the cold that followed the storm was hard work, hard use for the guns (tough to keep your feet under you, on snowshoes, in three feet of fresh snow) but was very productive.


Best,
Ted

Hard to beat a nice between the wars Birmingham boxlock for reliability. Low miles examples are hard to find but they do exist.

Lloyd owns a before both wars boxlock that is stunning.

Best,
Ted

Probably the practical difference between a 2016 double gun and a 1916 double gun is five or six birds out of a hundred, advantage to the newer gun. I assume of course you have practiced so as to become proficient with both.

I will make my well worn argument that shooting old guns with big drops is just like learning to use double triggers. Have to practice to learn how.

In a 12 or 20 gauge the ability to shoot Walmart ammo out of the new gun is an advantage. Not as much in a 28 or 16.

Several years ago, while we were out hunting bobs, my shooting student Joe Wood said "I like hunting with a classic gun." At the time he was carrying a six and one half pound Parker DH 12 gauge with beautiful 28" Damascus barrels. It has a 14" LOP to a skeleton steel buttplate. 2-3/4" drop at the heel. He was deadly with it. Still is. Parker one frame twelves are scarce. Joe has the unofficial lightest one known based on a thread on the Parker board.

I have a few American sixteens and twenties that weigh less than six pounds. Scarce, but not rare.

Flues twenties under six pounds are fairly common.

I suppose there could be arguments for all. I shoot with a group of gentlemen and some prefer to shoot fine English Best gun or other vintage guns. One shoots a Purdey hammer gun made 1878 and another shoots a 1909 Purdey. Another friend shoots several guns either hammer or hammerless.
Now they shoot weekly so I have wondered about the toll weekly shooting will take. They do shoot light loads.
I also shoot a English Best at times and have broken the main cocking spring in my Atkin spring opener. Now this is a very difficult spring to make there fore expensive. My other two friends have had issues with their Purdeys but nothing expensive to fix.
I just purchased a Garbi 12 bore and had Briley chokes installed. It will be a clays gun and a dove gun.
My English guns will come out on occasions I suppose.

Mike, I don't get that; given the same cartridge, why would being "old' diminish it's efficiency by 5%?

The finest game shot I know uses a pair of 1909 Dickson round actions; he doesn't appear to be handicapped by them in any way.

To take your other point, he does practice a lot. Every morning, in the season or out of it he goes into the yard and runs through his stance and gun mounting routine for about ten minutes. In the driven shooting season he's probably out three days a week killing big numbers.

Eug

I think there's something to Mike's observation of Joe's prowess and his liking for the classics: we tend to go to the guns we shoot (and like) best.

Hi Eugene:

In our informal clays games over time there have been handicaps developed for pumps and doubles.

In my experience a single trigger has a huge advantage when shooting doubles in ATA trap. Also in American skeet. And also for the second shot on wild birds.

The ability switch out the screw-in chokes gives a modern gun an advantage.

The 1916 American bird gun (English rough shooting) probably left the factory with about three inches of drop at the heel and 1-3/4" at the comb and 14"LOP. Compared to a modern gun with 1-3/8 x 2 x 14-3/4 the American bird gun is at a disadvantage on long shots I believe. I find the vertical alignment of the eye over the rib is more consistent with a high stock, compared to one with 3" DAH.

A hundred year old American goose/duck gun is likely to have stock dimensions of 13-1/2 x 3 x 1-3/4. Likely to have 40 or 50 thousndths of chokes in both barrels. Most likely has double triggers too. Again at a slight disadvantage to a modern high stocked 15"LOP choke-tubed gun when shooting clays.

Most of the guns I own are old American small bore doubles with some nice British and European small bores in the mix. I hunt bobwhite quail, Hungarian partridge, sharptail grouse, and pheasant. 75% of my hunting season is spent on bobwhites. Since I am shooting over pointing dogs the shots tend to be short and the disadvantages of the 100 year old American bird guns minimized.

Many American shooters buy an old double. And the first time they try to hit something all they see are the breech balls. They are in the habit of resting their cheekbone on the comb. Learning to shoot a big drop gun takes some practice. But it is not difficult, just different.

A 1915 28" barreled 6-1/2 pound Purdey 12 bore gives up nothing to its 2010 younger sibling in operation or effectiveness. But over here 2-1/2" shells have to be delivered to the house as our stores do not stock them.

While I prefer double trigger guns I don't argue the advantages of a single trigger gun. But in SxS I have found the double triggers much more reliable than the single trigger.

I would much rather take my 1920 Fox XE 20 gauge quail hunting than any of the modern doubles. It does have 3" drop at the heel but it also has a reliable factory single trigger. Quoting my shooting student and double gun mentor Joe Wood "I like hunting with a classic gun".

Ted's comment of "know thyself" is, to my mind the key factor in this discussion. I hunt waterfowl, almost exclusively. For me, a light weight classic would be inappropriate and a disservice to the gun. So I guess know thyself and be honest with thyself...

Mergus

You know, I'd love to have a classic double to use on waterfowl. To my mind, a Damascus hammergun would be spectacular for just such a use. Two things have kept me from doing it (well...3), steel shot and bad weather. I just can't do that to a well-made (& therefore, valuable!) 100-year old gun.

You never know about reliability. I have a 16 gauge Joseph Lang non-rebounding hammer gun completed March 6, 1866 which was rebarreled in Damascus about 1872 by James Woodward. I have over 5,000 rounds of RST and my low-pressure reloads through this gun without a single hitch with just an ordinary cleaning after each use. It's my favorite quail gun.

Lloyd, why settle for less? How about a brand new LC Smith or Parker that can digest steel. A modern old gun, so to speak.

Here it is,

http://www.ithacagun.com/featherlight.php

Bar none the finest repeater on the planet.

I have it's circa 1939 ancestor in 16. The new ones just don't speak to me ( or fit me very well either).

I clicked on the link. It's missing one barrel. And for some reason, the forearm moves back and forth.

If it's likely to get damaged by one type of load, why not just use something else. Sure, some of the steel shot alternatives are more expensive, but the few boxes here and there are a small part of waterfowl hunting. After that, if you want to hunt with a good classic, why not? Who cares if the back up gun is a modern magazine shotgun. I'd rather go duck hunting with the back up gun than sit at home.

While I don't hunt them exclusively, I do hunt waterfowl enough to have a hunting cabin in a marsh. I like to shoot old guns in every conceivable situation, if I can. For waterfowl, I do have an early 1980's Wingmaster when I really need it but prefer to use one of my three M12 Winchesters from the late 1950's or one of my two Remington 1894 B grades or my Remington 1900.

Those SxS have tons of barrel walls left and are 7.5 pounds plus. The stocks have been fixed (all Remington 1894's and 1900's have cracks) and glass-bedded and I shoot Kent Tungsten and Bismuth out of them. No steel out of anything....even my few (one) modern guns.

Unless one is constricted via a tight budget (and I realize that some are...) the solution is to own both. Beside several lovely classic Lefevers, a Remington, a Fox, etc. I bought a new Cabela's Dickinson with choke tubes. Its "better" for skeet and sporting clays when I care about score -- and it also handles steel shot when required. But the older classic SxS's also get used. Also bought a used Fabarms SxS because it had choke tubes.

I shoot several thousand clay birds each year, and don't want to "wear out" one of the older classic guns doing so. Occasionally Yes, but more often I use a so-called modern shotgun for clay bird games...

JERRY

Although it probably goes without saying, the Dickinson is in many ways a "lesser gun" than my old restored classic SxS's. It doesn't have the same level of finishing, real engraving, figured wood, history, etc. as the older guns.

When sitting in front of the fireplace on a snowy night, with a glass of Maker's Mark in hand, one of the older American SxS's feels much better across my knees...

JERRY

Owner serviceability due to the difficulty of sending guns to the original maker or specialist gunsmith. Sending guns cross border in Europe now is a buraucratic nightmare.

Fittability. Stock shims, adjustable stocks or even quick detachable bolted stocks are a boon to fitting.

Guilt free hunting over rough terrain. Sorry, but carrying an heirloom in stone wall country is no fun.

With some customising even indifferent guns can be made to handle and balance like "best" guns, fit really well and be used hard with any ammo. You can get parts for them. You miss the awareness of using a classic, but gain a lot in relaxation.

Or as was well put by a an unidentified poster:

"a good gun makes you smile when you pick it up and not cry when you drop it"

Gee no fretting here. I went and bought an insurance policy for my guns. Personally I find nothing quite as relaxing as folding up a wild rooster with my H&H and watching my Springer bring it to hand. As guilt free as it gets for this shooter.

So its got to be a double? OK.

Why not a Turk gun with a beautiful piece of Turkish walnut on it?

James, why don't you add that damascus 1894 Remington 10 gauge that's listed for sale on the EE. You won't need tungsten or bismuth as the seller states "will handle modern loads".

I'm late to this discussion, but I might as well throw my 2 cents in.

If you are going to shoot, shoot.
If you are going to collect, collect.

You can't pound 100 year old guns with cheap modern ammunition, and not degrade their collectability/value.

Like to shoot alot of targets? Buy a modern shotgun, and go wear it out.
Want to shoot a vintage gun? Buy RST's, or roll your own powder puff loads, and play with your toy just a little bit.

No one wants an old gun you wore out. So don't.

As I said,
"If you are gonna shoot, shoot."

I disagree....I wonder how many tens of thousands of rounds my Holland has digested. Still trucking along just fine with no evidence of repairs that I can find. I do feed it appropriately but that goes with the territory. I'm pretty sure my guns previous owner did indeed try to wear it out....he did not get it done though. Still lots of life left in her and she will see many more miles of prairie this fall. I collect and shoot/hunt everything I collect. Currently working on adding a SPECTACULAR English muzzleloading rifle in incredible original condition to my small collection. It will be well cared for but will go out in the field and hopefully do what it was designed to do.

Treblig:

I did buy a Turk. Finally found one I could live with. Pumps can be great guns too, but I was really looking for a double.

Right on, CZ. If you want to look at them, look at them. If you want to shoot them, shoot them. I do both---fair weather or foul, common guns or otherwise. They were made to be used.

I understand those who assign to guns a feminine gender for not wanting to expose them to anything less than a climate-controlled drawing room. Like Sir Walter spreading his cloak in the mud for Elizabeth I.

If a gun had a soul, what would it think? Bloody nonsense, I say.

10's of thousands? No disrespect intended but that's a ton of rounds through a game gun. Maybe not for Lord Ripon

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/The-Lo...b4604c646ef1a48

Lord Rippon killed 153 birds on his final day shooting. He shot many, many days per year for 53 years. His guns digested hundreds of thousands of rounds. My gun is nearly 100 years old and from the way it looked when I bought it it was well used for decades. I think it is safe to say we are in the tens of thousands at this point in time. I have likely put a couple thousand through it myself. 20 rounds of sporting clays seems pretty likely in the time I have owned it in addition to hunting with it. Rounds do add up.

I have a special respect for guns that have copious amounts of rounds thru them and still function as intended. I have a US marked solid rib 37 Remington that has been modified for an aerial trainer sight that undoubtedly has a gazillion rounds through. The magazine tube has no blue on it at all. Completely silver from working the action. It's a bit loose but still functions fine! My current SC gun doesn't hold a candle to it in round count at approximately 30K!

Rough ground means hilly small holdings, fields measuring about fifty by fifty yards, surrounded by a yard high dry stone wall. So at every 50 paces the gun must be laid open on a rough stone. Picked up, reloaded, and on to the next wall.

If you can look at pics of Italian hare hunters. Notoriously low cartridge consumers, yet their guns look positively decrepit from too much carrying rather than shooting. I wonder how a "best" would fare slung from their shoulders.

Best guns were not designed for that kind of use. They were rarely walked from stand to stand without wearing a slip.

Steve, We aren't going to agree on this one.
A pedestrian farm implement isn't a best work gun that goes back for tightening every so often.

And it's only the big three that have managed to have market pricing continue to increase beyond what repair costs are.

The rest are being turned into junk if you pound them.

Not my experience at all and I see a fair number of break action guns in my shop both best work and farmer grade. If you take care of them and feed them well they hold up just fine. Stick with a proven design in good condition and you will be a happy camper with an old gun. As for best guns being tightened ever so often, well sure some have been. Many others, which have been better cared for, not so much. Market price increasing beyond repair costs? These things are not Ferraris, it is not like you have an annual maintenance cost associated with them. Buy a good one and don't look back. I plan on shooting mine until my shooting days are over. My gun insurance runs less than 500$ per year. Well worth it for piece of mind carrying a nice gun in the field. Besides, Lucy deserves nothing less

Canvasback said:

"While I don't hunt them exclusively, I do hunt waterfowl enough to have a hunting cabin in a marsh. I like to shoot old guns in every conceivable situation, if I can. For waterfowl, I do have an early 1980's Wingmaster when I really need it but prefer to use one of my three M12 Winchesters from the late 1950's or one of my two Remington 1894 B grades or my Remington 1900.

Those SxS have tons of barrel walls left and are 7.5 pounds plus. The stocks have been fixed (all Remington 1894's and 1900's have cracks) and glass-bedded and I shoot Kent Tungsten and Bismuth out of them. No steel out of anything....even my few (one) modern guns."

My late season diver gun is a 10 ga Rem 1894 of approx. 12 lbs. Due to the education I have picked up here and in reading the DGJ, I knew going into old gun ownership that it was not going to be as simple as owning and shooting a newer steel compatible gun. Researching low pressure loads, acquiring hand reloading tools, changing my gun cleaning habits from the simple wipedown of the chrome lined barrels to something a lot more time consuming all came with ownership.

Is older better? Some days and situations, yes, some no.

Mergus

I keep getting newer and newer guns to try and find one that works without me messing with it. I think that the needy ones find me.
I spent a lot of time on LC Smith's, and they all needed work. Got a Fox, needed work, got a Parker, needed work.
So I got an Uggie. It needed firing pins and stock work....
So I bought an AYA 4/53. The safety reset when it fired. An easy fix, but still I wanted something that I didn't have to take apart.
I just got an unfired 1993 production Merkel model 8. So far this may end up being the gun I don't have to mess with?
Here's hoping.
CHAZ

My best hayfork has the original long springy handle with the curvatures in the right places to fit the hand & spring to the work easily.

My best set of wood chisels were blacksmith made in the old Tokyo prefecture circa mid to late 1800, like Samurai swords.

My nicest working blacksmith hammers are all old, as is my springiest best ringing anvil.

Just saying this to make the point that quality old hand tools have a feel in their function that lets you know that it was designed & made by people that actually used them. They seem to hold better edges, fit the hand well, cut & swing smoothly, work with you & enhance the work experience, are not thick & clumsy but fine & graceful. They combine function with art & appearance to a level that I do not see in most new hand tools unless they are a reproduction of the old tool. Like Veritas wood planes or Pfeil chisels & Japanese pull saws.
British doubles are the same type of tool to me, & to buy all that functional beauty & grace for the sums generally asked is a bargain & gift of God.
O.M

mergus: well said!

Well Mr. Lloyd when are you going to call Mr. James Purdey & Sons and order your new shotgun?

That's the only option left and with a three year waiting period, or is it four years now, you better get started.

Edit:

Deleted - got my threads mixed up.

It's not on a tablet, Moses, but I'll take it as it is. Thank you.

Treblig:

New Spanish and new Turkish (the Turk is mine). The price of the lower gun wouldn't even cover the cost for a fitting at Audley House.

First time I took my middle son duck hunting in SE MO I was using a 102 year old Lefever with Bismuth shot. The guide was not impressed to say the least. Good hunters used black plastic semi autos with 3" or 3-1/2" shells. I went 6x6 for my limit. My son shooting a Remington 1900 went 6x7 for his limit. After that the guide was a little less picky.

I like hunting with old doubles, more so if there is a personal connection to family or the past. Last year I opened Dove season with my late uncles .410 Crescent double. For the last five decades of his life he was too crippled to hunt due to childhood Polio and Rumatic Fever. Holding a pencil was hard swinging a gun impossible buy he kept that gun and cleaned it every year like this year he might go one more time. He never shot Dove with it but he was pure magic on quail with it I am told. He had it choked light Skeet and tight full. Not a gun worth any money at all but one that I find priceless for family value. Funny thing is that he never accepted a handicapped sticker, he never considered himself handicapped so the rest of our family just never saw him as handicapped, just Uncle Jr.

Look at that curl!!! I could warm up real fast to a shotgun that has that wood on it.

That Spaniard is no slouch either.

Jon,

Great story about your uncle. Thank you.

I never had any family who hunted or were into guns. I was into hunting, trapping and fishing from a young age. My dad had deer hunted some as a young man and was pretty knowledgeable about guns but with the demands of a dairy farm and five kids he never kept with it. He did however, always make sure I had opportunities to hunt, fish and trap, as long as my chores got done.

Only a few of my guns have a personal attachment to someone from my recent past. The rest are all interesting guns, but ones which I know nothing of their history.

I can imagine from my Lefever's battle scars some of its story. The same with my Ithaca Lewis 10 gauge and Thomas Bland 12 bore. The lack of attachment doesn't lessen the enjoyment I get from my old doubles. I sure get some looks though in the duck blinds and even upland bird hunting. Some guys think the old guns are cool and some seem to think I'm a nut.

One guy I hunted with took a personal affront to my turning down his offer of the loan of his extra Benelli. I was using my Ithaca Lewis on a duck hunt with him and he just didn't believe anyone would opt for such a gun when "better" guns were available. The ducks were absolutely everywhere that day and I limited (seven birds) in 9 rounds. I find shooting the expensive bismuth and ITX, I am a lot more particular about my shots.

Hunting with old guns is enjoyable to me because it encompasses so much of what I enjoy. I like the search for a good old gun, loading for it, spending time practicing on the skeet or sporting clays range and finally getting afield with the old gun. The connection to earlier times brings extra enjoyment to the whole experience.

I can walk through the big box sporting goods stores and the racks of new guns will never turn my head. Put me in a shop with a rack full of used guns, especially old, odd or classic, and I will swoon.

yes they do. One of my favorite guns is a 12 gauge Cashmore made in Birmingham (okay, it's not a box lock) and marked in Christchurch New Zealand. I got it for well under $1000 from New Zealand back when that was possible a decade or so ago.

This is a picture about a dog on his first hunt ever, but the Cashmore is the gun in question. Nothing fancy but it works and works and works.