A fellow at the range yesterday showed me a fired 16 gauge reload with a punctured primer. The reload was a 1 ounce, Remington hull, with a W 209 primer. The gun was a near new CZ sxs. The primer was flush with the base.

What is the probable cause? How dangerous is this condition?

I have seen this happen in various shells from time to time, and in various guns sometimes with factory loads. The CZ is the newest gun I've seen do this.

Long firing pin is probable cause.

The pierced primer shoots trash back into the action around the firing pin hole.

I know of no danger.

Hi, what brand of primer is he using? Some are more "soft" than others and may tend to puncture more (Cheddites for one). Also the length of the firing pins can cause this. A case in point is my 16ga D. Gotobed 16b hammergun. When I first got her, almost every primer was pierced, I was using RST's (which use Cheddite primers)and solved the problem by having the strikers shortened up some and the headspace adjusted. Some guns will pierce primers more than others, just depends. As to being dangerous, not all that much to worry about. The problem will be firing pin erosion from the primers if they are not cleaned.

Hoped this helped some.

Good Luck!

Greg

The possible danger mainly applies (as far as I know) to a sidelock (s/s or o/u) where in extreme cases pressure can build up behind the lockplate and damage the thin wood section around the lockplate. I suspect actual damage is rare, but the idea is worrying.

First thing I'd do in his place is go back and check my reloads. Are they low pressure? Am I dropping the right amount of powder? Do the primers flatten out against the firing pin and make a mushroom over it like high pressure loads? What brand of primers is he using?

I blame the re-loader, the person first, then the reload it self, then the components, then the brand of ammo, then the gun. Rule them out one by one and the problem will become simple to fix. But to alter a gun first is a fairly major step when compared to changing loads or making sure the right load was used inn the first place.

A single pierced primer is not that big of a deal but constant pierced primers will cause wear on the gun that is not needed. To me a single pierced primer is a lot like the gas loss of a percussion cap or flint lock so the gun is not at major risk. A long dead friend would just say it is just porting on both ends. He died from natural causes, not a porting accident.

How dangerous is this condition?

Very.

I had this happen on a common or garden box lock of Belgian manufacture. There were thousands of this model imported in the 50s and 60s; I got mine from Wm Powell in Birmingham in '64.

The cause was an imperfectly formed striker nose that wasn't hemispherical, but a bit more like a truncated cone. It penetrated the cap, and in consequence the whole of the action was pressurised.

The effect was to detach a piece of the of the woodwork immediately behind the right side of the standing breech, and blow it just passed my right eye. The piece was about two and a half inches long and roughly the thickness of a pencil, maybe a bit fatter.

Being a right hander it did no more than soil my underpants (we found it about fifteen feet behind the shooting stand at the foot of a stone wall.) I was being coached by Joe Neville at the time, and he was standing behind me, but thank God it missed him too. A lefty shooter would have without doubt lost an eye.

If you've got away with it once, say a thank you to St Patrick, and NEVER shoot it again before the fault is identified and remediated.

KYJ posted Sorry Jon but given my experience you'll see why I vehemently disagree.

Eug

KYJ posted
Quote:
A single pierced primer is not that big of a deal
Sorry Jon but given my experience you'll see why I vehemently disagree.



Eugene I have never experienced a primer failure like you describe. I am sure yours is a much more personal viewpoint. Over the years I have had a very few pierced primers but none has caused any minor or major damage. My good luck to off set your bad luck.

When I hear of primer failure and reloads I think about load problems first, primer problems second and gun problems last. That comes from watching reloads shot by others over the years. I personally have witnessed between 1.5 million and 1.6 million reloads shot at clay targets so the number of bad reloads shot by others has to be more than a thousand by now. There were more than a few reloading shooters I just would not shoot with.

Most common was errors by the loading person, laziness in checking and weighing loads, loading with the wrong powder, poor equipment maintenance, defective components perhaps a few times and gun problems last. Squib loads, heavy loads, loads so hot that primers flatten against the primes, cases which shear off at the brass, cases which split, cases which burn the case mouth when fired are all things that alarm me. If my shells looked like that I would only shoot factory but others seem to consider it normal.

This is a rather timely thread!
There are numerous reports of Primer issues currently, pierced primers and failures to fire.
Often light heartedly dismissed as, too low of a primer seating , overlong firing pins.
Now Gentlemen,
Let us attend to this, there are SAAMI and CIP regulations and dimensions for the construction of cartridge components and gun building.
Due to greed and profit drive many of these issues are being overlooked.
Could we please start to document these failures , which are far greater than you would believe, and identify who the major offenders are?
Only then can we sleep sound in our beds.
If you pierce a primer , you experience the ignition of the FULL load through your breech face into your action!
I have a new Browning that has fired 50 shells and the firing pin noses look like they have been flame cut.

Hi Pierre!

Give us a bell when you have a moment ... we're (hopefully) selling up and moving back to Worcester / Shropshire.

Eug

I guess the punctured primer thread is finished!

I think salopian's suggestion has good merit. Aside from potential safety issues, it takes few pierced primers to flame cut the nose of a firing pin & ultimately to damage the standing breech's firing pin hole or disc/bushing.

I am witnessing more FTF incidents recently, so it would seem, w/factory target rounds shot by others. Most of those cartridges did fire upon being rechambered which might indicate the primer mixture wasn't uniformly applied inside the cup or the cartridge rim thickness was on the thin side or a headspace issue w/the gun, but who actually knows? It could just as easily be 'crud' buildup on the backside of the standing breech keeping the firing pin from extending as fully as it should in some gun designs where said gun has seen a lot of use.

I've had pierced primer experiences in year's past [in my case, it was a mechanical gun issue], none recently, but I know of others who are experiencing that issue in the present w/factory new ammunition & to a lesser extent w/reloads in assorted guns. I see it when shooting and on spent cartridges both w/some frequency. I've no doubt that some primer cups are harder/softer ticker/thinner than others & that they have likely changed from time to time due to combinations of cost &/or changes w/vendors supplying cup material.

I've loaded multiple sleeves of Cheddite primers in the last few years w/o an incident of any kind, no FTF's on the first loading & no pierced primers. I have had similar positive experiences w/Fiocchi 616's, WW 209's, Federal 209's [until I ran out], 209A's and some now ancient Federal .410 primers. Excepting those .410 primers, I'll use a minimum of two sleeves a year on target ammunition alone. Oh, I use some CCI 209M's on some hunting loads as well. No issues there either.

I'll also shoot a few flats of 12ga. Remington Premier[STS]target loads, 12ga. Clever Mirage Super Target or Pro Extra, 20ga. Federal Field and 12ga. Fiocchi ammunition in the course of a year & I've experienced no FTF or pierced primers w/any of it. Just my experience.

FWIW; if the 'indention' may be used as an empirical indicator of primer cup hardness, then the no longer made Federal .410 primers would clearly have the hardest cups of any of the primers I listed above.

Its a good and fair topic of discussion w/today's plethora of ammunition and components that are on the market and it is a condition that can and should be rectified .. or avoided, if that may be done by something as simple as making an ammunition or primer change, well worth being aware of. Sorry for the length of the post. I talk even slower;-)

--

We might start by asking what ammunition salopian was using and what specific model Browning? I'll begin paying more attention to the ammunition & gun in use when I see a FTF & hulls w/pierced primers and if it looks to have a pattern, I'll post it.

??????

my krieghoff 32 pierces factory rio 12ga 1 1/8oz rounds. about 2 in a box.
nothing else though. odd indeed.

I had a 16 bore LC Smith that pierced the primers, in the right barrel every shot, every load...I just ignored it for years....

This past weekend I was having pierced primers on 30-40% of rounds fired in a Husqvarna hammergun. All rounds were Polywad 2-1/2" Vintagers. I will be checking FP protrusion and also check another load for comparison. Other than the visually pierced primer, no other ills were noted.

Has your shooting improved?