Is it possible to identify the maker? I cannot find what some of these marks represent. Can you help?

So far the chambers are 2 1/2", It is Black powder proof for finished and soldered barrels with a pressure of 14223 psi (pressure adjusted 1923) using smokeless T, It is choked with a range guarantee, seems to have won a prize at the World's Fair in 1914. barrels are compressed steel and something to do with an ingot mold. that is about as far as I can get.

http://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html

Choke rectifie translates to choke regulated, I have been told by French speakers.

"St Etienne".....town below Lyon famous for steel and gun manufactures. My wife's father is from St. Chamond, near St. Etienne....famous soccer teem ...wears green "Allez les verdes."

"Acier comprime" - compressed steel
"En lingotierre" - from an ingot

"Choke rectifie" - regulated choke (extent not stated)
"porte guarentie" - guaranteed

"Z-F" = ZAVATTERO- FRERES. See following:
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,294905503,var,Catalogue-de-la-Manufacture-moderne-d%E2%80%99armes-de-luxe---Zavattero-freres---Saint-Etienne---100-pages,language,E.html

for proof marks see:
http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

"cinq grands prix" - 5 grand prizes
"Hors concours Lyon 1914" - All categories, Lyon 1914

St. Etienne is where the French proof house is. Lagopus.....

Can't say I recall ever having seen Zavattero on a French gun.

Wow Argo, how you found that is beyond me. Thank you. I wonder what the initials in an oval refer to or who they refer to. It may be upside down in the picture. Also the circle things near the breech?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=205883

well.....that's 2 of them...1 to go

If you are curious what this gun looks like (Not a Darne clone):

Pretty sure the letters in the circle are French cursive "ZF"....I'll check with French wife this evening.

Showed the letters in the circle to her. She said emphatically that this is "Z F" (and more likely "Z Fr") written in classic French cursive as every French kid learned in school.

Nice gun by the way....the French really were at the origin of breech loading shotguns.

If memory serves me Charles II King of England and his court in exile picked up shooting flying while in France. That was long before breech loaders

When I mentioned French influence on breech loading shotguns, I of course meant Casimir Lefaucheux....just for the historians and people browsing because this knowledgeable crowd already knows about him (and how the Brits basically got around - or ignored - his patents) (the French poem about Perfidious Albion comes to mind) (L'Angleterre, ah, la perfide Angleterre, que le rempart de ses mers rendait inaccessible aux Romains, la foi du Sauveur y est abordee.")

The first centerfire breechloader - the Lefaucheux pinfire, breechloading shotgun, 1836: In 1836, French gunsmith Casimir Lefaucheux, taking inspiration from earlier designs by Jean Samuel Pauly that just didn’t work, came up with something pretty radical.

Lefaucheux’s gun, a smoothbore longarm that loaded from the breech rather than the muzzle, in itself was not new. What was new was that he used a self-contained paper tube that held both the charge and the shot in one handy shell. This shell was fired from a pinfire primer in the rear that was struck by a hammer in the rear of breech. To load and reload, one simply cracked the breech open and inserted or extracted the round by hand. Once fired, the empty paper hull was removed and a new one inserted if needed.

Today you can look at the design and see the modern hinge-break shotguns that are still in fast production. Next time you go to the skeet range, you can mutter a little thanks to Casimir.

I say this as a big fan of French guns, having a French surname and coming from a sales and marketing background.

The French couldn't care less about the rest of the world. They sleep at night secure in the knowledge that the pinnacle of culture and sophistication resides in the heart of France, in Paris. They traditionally are insular in their world view. Their industry mirrors that outlook. Thus, despite a thriving gun industry, the output was, and is, primarily offered and marketed to Frenchmen in France.

The Brits, on the other hand, have an extremely outgoing world view and always have. Success for Britain is on the world stage. So their thriving gun industry marketed their wares to the world.

The result is Britain's leading makers are known throughout the world. While France's leading gun-makers are known throughout....France.

If you want to own fine guns, it's an opportunity.

Agree. Time and again we've met French "businessmen" who half-heartedly want to market their goods abroad...whether it's sweets, olive oil, cars...whatever. They just don't have a clue even though their products are truly excellent.

I guess there's a reason why you can now find French pate and cheese made right here in America. My wife goes crazy about this...the French have to get to America to start to produce internationally and to get back to their capitalist roots after 60 years of socialism.

I owned a Renault 21 in Brussels in 1986.. I ran down a BMW on an autoroute out of Germany doing 210 KM/hr..ran him out of gas and me with a (fuel ejected) 4 cyl engine! Those St. Etienne guns are really excellent and you can find them at a bargain...if you can find them.

Argo, I own a St Etienne gun and a Parisian gun and I couldn't be happier with both. Searching for more. But not necessarily over here.

The only French gun I own is a Halifax/Darne. I do own a pinfire but it was made by W & C Scott of Birmingham.
I would certainly "NOT" call the Lefaucheux pinfire the first "Centerfire" breech loader, for the simple reason it is not a centerfire. No argument that it preceded the first centerfire breech loader, but it Warn't One.

I discovered French guns several years ago with a Manufrance Costo (Robust) a really nice solid gun that unfortunately taught me about cast-off/cast-on and gun fit. It had a lot of cast-off so I sadly sold it. My current go-to field gun is a sweet super lightweight French 16 gauge. The earlier remarks about the French provincialism brought to mind my dad’s remarks regarding the French. Dad was a lieutenant in the 101st Airborne during WWII, a glider trooper. Of all the people he met he liked the Dutch the best, the Brits second, the Germans third, and the French a distant last. After the Normandy invasion (he landed on Utah beach, they’d run short of gliders) the poor hospitality and lack of gratitude shown by the French really irked him after risking his life liberating them from the Germans.

My daughter was a foreign exchange student with a Parisian French family. My daughter spoke highly of their hospitality and their daughter was a very nice guest when she stayed with us (though not a fan of my late wife’s cooking).

Steve

Two Piper, the first commercially available centerfire that i know of was Pauly of 1812 in France. I am on the road, but at home have pictures of an exquisite centerfire made 100 years before that in the early 1700s.

I recently acquired a 20-gauge Gastinne Renette shotgun made during the first decade of 1900 and I am very impressed by its quality and handling. It is my first french gun and hopefully not the last.
BillK

I was asked by wingshooter to translate the definitive pamphlet on the Manufrance Ideal shotgun. I read it cover to cover... Time would not allow me to do a good job so I sent it back to Mike. But that was just one of several Manufrance models. It will give you an idea of the excellence of St Etienne manufactures. Maybe one day I'll be able to get to this seriously, possibly within the next year.

Lots of French guns on this board...take a look at this line.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...4910b29ab4af82b

I have one ad that describes the Ideal as "Le plus beau et le plus parfait fusil du monde." Most beautiful and most perfect . . . there she is, Miss America!

Daryl;
I'll not disagree with you on that. My real meaning was that a pinfire is not a central fire.
The statement I was truly disagreeing with was that the Lefaucheux Pinfire was the original central fire beech loader.

Argo, thanks for posting that thread. I thought I had seen all the MF Ideal threads on here but somehow had missed that one. I was a fairly active member of the DarneUSA forum until it shut down last year. Had been trying to help make it a repository for MF Ideal information, as much as I could. Sad we lost it all. Sorry to hear time constraints on the Wingshooter project. Mike told me about that last week and I was really looking forward to the finished project. I can use my high school French to get through a lot of it when I concentrate but the gun jargon throws me off.

Count me in.
I can translate whatever.
One of my project is a gun dictionary, including English, French and Belgian!
This might sound dumb, but the words are often different.
As an example "poudre vive" is Belgian, "poudre pyroxylee" is French...
WC-

One or the other also uses "poudre blanche" if I recall correctly. That's a very worthwhile project, WC. I've thought of it myself from time to time . . . particularly when I forget some bit of "gun French" that I used to know and have to dig around to resurrect it.

We probably need to compare French gun libraries at some point. I have a few gun books in French, but not many. If I were to read Journee cover to cover, I'd likely have it nailed. But there's also a lot of highly technical stuff in his book.

I've been curious about this mark on Builder's gun:



It looks like "B P 72" or "P P" to me. I assume 72 might be the length of the chambers. I can't find a reference to "B P" in French marks....but at least in Hungary, which seems to have used some French conventions, it refers to Nitro Proof.

My spouse recalls that in St. Etienne...the locals referred to Manufrance as "La Manu"... I'll see what one of her relatives has to say about this.

And another thought; If wing shooter could scan that publication and post it a page at a time, we might be able to "crowd-translate it." i.e we could do a page at a time as time permits. I could do 20 pages...90 would really have been a bridge too far.

Probably Poudre Blanche like L. Brown's post above?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I should be happy to do what I can to get this wonderful little paperback on the Ideal translated, be it scanning (any copyright issues?) or sending it to Wild Cattle (I think you offered?). Argo was very kind to look it over and consider the project, but as he stated just does not have the time right now. And I would be remiss if I did not publically thank Larry B for some translation help when I was corresponding with the seller of my first Ideal, who was in the South of France. It is such a beautiful language, and such a lovely work of French art to come from "La Manu."

The group translation thing might work well.

Back in my Army days, a fellow officer was on the adjunct faculty of the US Army Command & General Staff College at Ft Leavenworth. He got to know the French liaison officer, who asked him if he knew anyone who might translate a French document for him. John asked me if I'd be interested. Turned out to be a mid-18th century document entitled "Le Testament du Marechal de Belle-Isle" (The Will of the Marshal de Belle-Isle.) Pre-revolution, and Belle-Isle was a nobleman and colonel in command of a regiment, passing on advice to his son--who was going to inherit the regiment. Very interesting, and a lot of valuable insights about command, even 250 years later. Ended up a dozen typed pages, double spaced. The French liaison officer was so pleased that he asked my friend if I might be interested in translating the French equivalent of FM 101-5, Field Operations. Would've been at least 10x that long. I took a pass.

In my eyes it seems to be a "L F", for a "Z" I miss the slash..
LF stands for the belgium barrelmaker "Lovinfosse Hardy et fils (François)". More information on a french forum about Zavattero and Lovinfoss you can find here:
(in french of course)

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t22381-identification-fusil-juxtapose

The user named "Neltir" is a real expert who knows what he talks about...!
He added some pages of a Zavattero catalogue there.

Salute,
Gunwolf

Thanks Gunwolf...looking at the Zavaterro on the site you posted, here are the same initials. I'm going to post what Neitir said about the Belgian barrel maker...it seems authentic.

A few pages from the catalog link posted above on the first page. Lots of this is available on the internet. Saint Bonnet le Chateau where the factory was located is just to the west of St. Etienne.






A Darne copy”

Here is Neitir's post on the link posted by Gun Wolf. This translation is not literal but tries to catch the spirit of what Neitir was saying:

(from Neitir) Bonsoir a tous , pour répondre aux interrogations de Fabien , je vais essayer de vous dire ce qu'il en est :

(Good evening everyone, I'm going to try to tell you what this is all about in order to respond to Fabien's questions)

Dans ma jeunesse j'ai travaillé quelques temps comme je vous l'avais dit dans un autre post chez un formidable patron qui hélas du fermer en 1968 . ce regretté patron était les établissements ZAVATTERO qui étaient a cette époque (1962) a Saint Bonnet le Château dans le haut forez . Cet établissement avait été fondé par Louis Zavattero en 1880 qui s'associa avec son frère Joanny et cette maison pris le nom de Zavattero Frères .

(When I was young I worked part time as I said in another post, for an excellent organization which unfortunately closed their doors in 1968. I regret that this was the ZAVETTERO company which was at that time (1962) located in Saint Bonnet le Chateau in the high forez area. This company had been founded by Louis Zavattero in 1880 in association with his brother Jonny and this company used the name "Zavattero Freres.")

Le marquage de cette arme est tout simplement le marquage des fusils produits par les établissements Zavattero Frères et ce fusil est un modéle ZEDEF Focor avec un canon de marque Lovinfosse Hardy fils célèbre canonnier Belge .

(The marks on this arm are quite simply the marks of the the long-guns produced by the Zavattero Freres company and this shotgun is a model ZEDER Focor with a barrel marked by Lovinfosse Hardy and Sons, famous Belgian barrel makers.)

Son Numéro correspond a une production de juillet 1951 , il y a eut deux modéles , le Focor a finition de luxe finition a la pierre et le Focor standard avec bretelle automatique et canons isochromés en option . en calibres 12/16/ 20 et aussi une version en triple verrou type Hélice . Toutes les productions de Zavattero frères étaient équipées de canons de Marque soit belges soit de canons Zavattero Frères dans ce cas marqués ZF .

The number corresponds with a production from July 1951. There were two models, Le Focor with a "de lux" stone finish and the Focor standard with "blued" (not sure - means strap or ramp) automatic and with an option for barrels in the same color. in 12/16/20 chambers and also a version in thriple screw lock (?). All the guns of Zavattero freres were equipped with either Belgian barrels using the Belgian mark or Zavattero Freres barrels marked "ZF".) - comment: I see why we need a gun-centric french-english dictionary: (Note: "triple lock probably refers to the "Helice" lock which you can find on a number of guns in france).

En aucun cas les fusils fabriqués en Tchéquie ont le même marquage , mais un CZ d'une autre forme. Voici une gravure du musée municipal de St Etienne montrant un fusil Focor du même modéle que celui de Fabien .

(In no case did the guns made in Chechoslovakia have the same marks, but rather "CZ" in another script. Here is a print of the municipal museum of St Etienne showing a Focor shotgun, the same model as that of Fabien).

Now it's a little unclear to me....the barrels were either Belgian or Zavattero Freres work which were marked with ZF. So the cursive mark in the circle could well be "LF" or more likely "L Fi" (Lovinfosse Hardy et fils).

Now the question for me is, it appears these barrels have both the ZF and the LFi marks. Strange. Would like to see more examples of the Belgian barrel marks.

The CZ mark is on the other gun....I'll post them all for comparison.

And it's got me wondering about those "Hungarian" BP marks...Lots of Hungarians in Bratislava - now Slovakia but then part of Czechoslovakia. .

bretelle automatique may be similar to the retractable sling found on Ideals and Robusts: http://www.naturabuy.fr/VENDU-PAR-JEPERC...em-3201026.html


I also noticed the same "Scottish" or "basketweave" checkering pattern usually found on Ideals. Fascinating thread.

Argo, As far as I can see, the CZ in a circle is the Zavattero sign. In the oval there is the LF for Lovinfoss Hardy
Fils......So, the only thing we know is, that Builders Gun has barrels from Belgian maker Lovinfoss. But of course I may be wrong.

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Nice job, Argo. I'm guessing that Neitir made a typo when he wrote "forez". Likely "foret"--so "high forest".

I've changed the translation a bit in the light of day...here is the correct sentence which changes things a bit.

(All the guns of Zavattero freres were equipped with either Belgian barrels using the Belgian mark or Zavattero Freres barrels marked "ZF".)

(In no case did guns made in Czechoslovakia have the same marks, but rather "CZ" in another script.

I.e. Zavettero did not make guns in Czechoslovakia; the CZ on the Zavattero's meant something else, probably one of Zavattero's models (and note the two guns were likely made 40 years apart..

And here are subsequent comments: Perhaps Neitir was mistaken? Because Builder’s gun has both the ZF and the LFi mark on the barrels. The Zavattero forwarded by Gunwolf has the CZ mark (CYNEA?), is also marked St. Etienne and LFi and there is a Z F with some other writing.

Here is the Zavattero Freres mark on Builder’s barrels along with the St Etienne proof mark.






Here is the LFi mark on Builder’s gun.




Could this mark on Builder’s gun might be the postal code for St. Etienne….BP 72 ? (Seriously doubt this...anyone with an Ides? Initials of the owner maybe?




Here is the LFi mark on the other Zavattero in the line forwarded by Gunwolf. It’s also has the St. Etienne stamp and proof mark




Yet it also has the CZ mark...from the ad below apparently a Shotgun model? FZ - Focor Zavattero; CZ = Cynea Zavettero?.



And here is the Z F on the gun posted by Gunwolf possibly surmounted by "Choke Rectifie" (but not on the barrel).






Here is the mark on the other Zavattero, link posted by Skeettz on the first page:

That mark is on the barrel flats of my gun also. I assume it is a trademark. It may represent ZC not CZ. Maybe Zavattero Cie?

Don't know. The name did change to Zavattero Cie in 1930? Here is another ad from 1950 with the FZ or CZ marks and something about Cynea up in the corner?

I think it's solved. It appears that Zavattero had two models, CYNEA, the entry level model according to this gentleman, and FOCOR. Those are probably the marks we're seeing. ZC and ZF.

From a French site:

Ton fusil est un modèle CYNEA de la manufacture Zavattero de St Etienne.Fermeture hélice. C'était le modèle d'entrée de gamme.Les canons en 16-70 sortent de chez Heurtier.

Here is a French site explaining "HELICE" locks and mentioning that Zavattero used it in his CYNEA models.

http://fcm25.canalblog.com/archives/2015/01/06/31267521.html

(3): les Ets Marcel Philippon père et fils de 1933 à 1964 firent ainsi, tout comme Gaucher (connu pour ses petites carabines 22 ou de jardin) des modèles à triple et même quadruple verrouillage ! Zavattero sur son Cynea avait des canons Heurtier, de grande renommée.

Here's Builder's CZ mark....Pretty darned sure it means it's a Zavattero CYNEA model.

The oval has Z F in script. It was upside down in the first image.

Helice . . . essentially the same principle as the Scott spindle. And, like the Scott spindle, one that has stood the test of time. I'd guess that over the years, I've seen dozens of questions here concerning a French maker named "Helice". We have Verney-Carron to thank for it.

One of the advertisements above mentions "Canons acier fin Z F bande fuyante". I was wondering if "Z F" might be a barrel maker perhaps different from Zavattero Freres...and if so, why Builder's gun would have both Z F and LFi on the barrels. Can't find any reference to a separate Z F barrel maker so assume this is indeed Zavattero Freres... maybe hiding the fact that LFi made those barrels?

But in the process I came upon this really excellent line with an amazing discussion of French powder marks, etc. which Larry and others posted 8 years ago. It is definitive in many ways and worth a read...again.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=133486&page=5

Also, in the above link to the Helice locks, there is an interesting paragraph on why French guns sometimes are not marked with a builder's mark. I'll translate that for the record as time permits.

By the way, for historical reasons I just had to revisit the identification of the mark on the barrels as "Lovinfosse Hardy François et Fils." Here is their their mark registered in 1909



Deux fusils croisés avec étoiles et les initiales FL est la marque du fabricant François LOVINFOSSE-HARDY rue Hayneux, 76 à HERSTAL. Cette marque a été déposée le 15.07.1909. L’intéressé a été actif dès 1876. Il est l’auteur de 2 brevets déposés en 1876 et 1885 (voir site).

Two rifles crossed with stars and the initial FL are the mark of the manufacturer François LOVINFOSSE-HARDY street Hayneux, 76 at HERSTAL. This mark was registered the 15.07.1909. The interested party was active since 1876. He is the author of 2 patents deposited in 1876 and 1885 (see site).

Lovinfosse-Hardy François & Fils qui utilisait la marque FL couronné entouré de deux fusils croisés (voir site)

http://mallorquina.pagesperso-orange.fr/source/pageH.htm



Pre 1909 they used two marks...FL and FL in a circle: "vers 1865 signature "Hardy et Lovinfosse" voir Lovinfosse. la sucession des noms laisse a penser que Hardy et Lovinfosse étaient associés et que deux enfants se sont mariés pour donner la dynastie Lovinfosse Hardy puis Lovinfosse Hardy et fils .." (Référence 1864 signature "Hardy and Lovinfosse" i.e. Lovinfosse: The union of these names leads one to think that Hardy and Lovinfosse were partners and that the two children were married which led to the dynasty 'Lovinfosse Hardy' then 'Lovinfosse Hardy and Sons'.")



FL Lovinfosse Hardy and Fils (François)
FL in a circle Lovinfosse Hardy and Fils (François)
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html



None of these marks resemble the marks on the Zavattero guns above...so..unless someone can come up with something better, I'm reverting to the original conclusion...that this mark is ZF in a circle and is a Zavattero Freres mark.



Neitir mentioned that in 1962 there were two models FOCOR and FOCOR standard. He didn't mention CYNEA. However from his description believe his "FOCOR standard" was CYNEA. He also did not mention the ZF of ZC stamps.

However, if I'm right, then on this point he is 100% correct which eliminates the dichotomy noted above. "All the guns of Zavattero freres were equipped with either Belgian barrels using the Belgian mark or Zavattero Freres barrels marked "ZF"." In which case these are in-house barrels manufactured by Zavattero Freres. So until proven otherwise (and welcome additional information), believe this mark is the Zavettero mark put on "ZF" barrels.

And by the way the original catalog I posted from about 1912 had a lot more models than CYNEA and FOCOR.

There's little chance the intertwined CZ monogram to be affiliated w/ the Prague or Weipert proof facilities or CZ itself. Below are the touchmarks pressed into use by the proof facilities.





Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A slight tweak on ARGO's fine French translation of:

Son Numéro correspond a une production de juillet 1951 , il y a eut deux modéles , le Focor a finition de luxe finition a la pierre et le Focor standard avec bretelle automatique et canons isochromés en option . en calibres 12/16/ 20 et aussi une version en triple verrou type Hélice . Toutes les productions de Zavattero frères étaient équipées de canons de Marque soit belges soit de canons Zavattero Frères dans ce cas marqués ZF .

"Its serial number corresponds to July 1951 production..., ...and the Focor standard with an automatic sling and chrome-plated bores optional in gauges 12/16/20 etc., etc.

The St. Etienne proof mark for chrome-plated barrel is a diamond with the letters ISC within.

Regards, Tim

"bretelle automatique et canons isochromés." Automatic sling; crome-plated bores.... Learned new gun words ....thanks. I'd have asked spouse...but she can only take a couple of questions about French words a day before she starts questioning why I can't speak French after 35 years while she speaks perfect English (with an adorable accent and beaucoup de "Voila's" thrown into every sentence)..(and emphasis provided by multiple "mon Dieu," et "puree de mince".)

Wonder how one can differentiate between "canons" for barrels and "canons" for bores...maybe it's just understood that you're not going to have a chrome barrel on the outside...sort of a Harley Davidson option?

US Army in 1966 tried to get around the jamming problems associated with the M-16 by chrome plating the chambers. Problems with the Russian/Soviet Disku .50 were addressed in the same way in Afghanistan without much success..it was a piece of merde when compared to a Browning

Argo, we do pretty much the same thing with barrel/bore as the French do with "canon". In my part of the world, where most deer hunting is with shotguns and slugs, you often hear the term "rifled barrel" when someone is referring to a rifled bore. And French rifled bores often confuse Americans. The standard assumption is that they're for shooting slugs, when quite often French woodcock guns are set up with the first barrel rifled--but to produce a more open pattern rather than to shoot slugs.

Hi Argo,
"Chromed barrels" would not semantically distinguish between inside and outside.
However, Pimping a double did not quite exist back then. So, because the only practical use of Chrome is inside the barrels, that's what this is supposed to mean.
A couple of remarks:
- "Isochrome" was a barrel plating company in St Etienne. This is a trade name, and not a scientific one.
- I have seen my fair share of Chromed barrels made by "la Manu". The problem with that process is that it does not age well, probably worse than non chromed barrels.
I don't know what the problem is, but the chrome seems to flake off after some time. I would think that the issue might be that during shooting, the barrel stretches more than the chrome, breaking the bond over time. In any event, I would stay away from chromed barrels, even if they look good today.
Of course, by the time the Chrome is flaking, I don't know the barrels can be recovered.
It could be a process issue, I don't know if other processes work better.

Best regards,
WC-

As you all saw, I edited my chrome-plating translation, originally chromed barrels into "chromed bores" for more precision. Here's a photo of the St. Etienne proof mark which looks like the diamond has ISR in it, correcting my earlier note.

Gun is a 16 gauge F. Darne fils aine recently rebarreled but with ordinary proof and no chrome plating.

Regards, Tim

WC, are you referring to Isochrome's plating technique, or to chromed bores in general? The Italians have used chromed bores for quite some time. Likewise SKB. I don't think I can recall having seen any of those bores that suffer from flaking chrome--other than maybe where someone tried to open chokes on a chromed bore without the proper tools.

I was referring to the Manufrance ones. They are the only ones I have experience with. I don't know what process they used.
However, they were old when experiencing problems. I'd say well over 20 years.
WC-

I was curious about this bretelle automatique business. Here is a video of a Manufrance Ideal gun with such a strap. Interesting. I may look for a 12 ga for Son (French dual citizen) and a 16 or 20 ga for Dau in Law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUun89XIwj4

Older post, but I believe I just purchased one of these guns. I do not yet have it to hand, but you can see the pictures on the Gunbroker.com auction. It has a clear CZ stamping, which I believe makes it in some way related to the Zavattero guns. A bit of research led me to find this picture of an old ad for some Zavattero guns in the early 1900s. You can see the gun listed as No. 20 in the ad is a dead ringer for the gun from the auction. I'll know more once the gun comes in and I can visually inspect it in greater detail. I'm having difficulty determining if this is a later variation of an underlever type action or something else. Anyways, I wanted to add additional information and pictures to the CZ Zavattero discussion.

Here's the gun from the auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/584065660

And the ads I found...





And another seller I've found with one of these guns...
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100717152

Re the British being outgoing businessmen and thus their goods conquering the world etc.

Atually they slapped on punitive import duties on imported goods in the colonies, while British stuff was tarrif free. That kind of gave them an edge. Having been borne in a colony I experienced the situation first hand.

In shotguns this meant that walking hunters resorted to mid quality English guns, like Midlands et al, based on prototypes developed for static driven shooting.

But even favorable tarrifs could not save the day, when more suitable Berettas, Bernardellis and Saint Etienne shotguns finally made it to the market place. Same went for cars, Austins were good, but Citroen DS, Opels and Lancias were way superior and got market share even at higher prices.

From the photos, yours looks to be Zavattero Freres, Cynea Model (Zedef Cynea). Focor Model is marked with FZ (Zedef Focor) - Focor is the deluxe version.

Born in a colony as well. The use of tariffs or not doesn't change the original point; the British were outward looking especially when it came to trade, or perhaps just wildly better at it, in a way the French etc were not. Obviously the use of tariffs and other trade mechanisms as well as having things like say.....colonies, make the likelihood of trade success greater.

The British Empire was, to a great degree, a business proposition. Canada started as a company long before it was anything else.

edit to add: Don't get me wrong, I like French guns a lot. As well as Belgian German etc. Have many more of those than British. I am strictly speaking about what may be described as marketing and its long term impact on the gun trade and our attitudes.