What is the status of the 16 Gauge Society? It appears that they are not taking new members.

I was told the forum moderator died and it is running on autopilot at this time.

There are some members running the forum now. Self-regulated from what I see and its an amazingly well-mannered place. I joined in December; it took a week or two for an administrator to process my request.

Still working as normal

It is the only other board I visit daily

They're kind of busy right now out looking for 12 and 20 gauges.

You're a funny guy.

Seriously, though, the founder and owner died a while back and members have been working with his family to keep it running. B/c it's a totally volunteer effort, things move slowly. I think that b/c they tend to keep the 12 and 20 gauges out, the manners are better and more easily maintained. 16 ga being the gentleman's gauge and all that.

If someone is having problems getting on the site, some of the members there also post here and under the same name. A pm through here to one of them could be helpful but it might just take a while if you're waiting on 16ga.com already.

I didn't know the fellow, but find it hard to believe that a sixteen gauge promoter would desert us. Rest in peace.

Thanks to all of you for your help on this. I hope the 16 Gauge recovers from the loss of it founder soon.

"Gentleman's Gauge? My ass!!- Nash Buckingham, Paul A. Curtis, Ray P. Holland, Ernest Hemingway- true, some of these late gents and giants of literature in the gunning mileu of yesteryears now gone may have owned a 16 or two, but were serious shotgunners who preferred the std. 12 gauge. In my area, 16 gauge shells are premium priced above 12 and even 20 gauge.

Francis: you have once again shown yourself to be the ass.
Doug Oliver was a transplanted Kansan, and a gentleman, and the continuation of the 16g Society after his premature death is a testament to that fact
http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/31/doug-oliver-the-keeper-of-the-16-gauge-flame/

Great article. Thanks for sharing the link,

Doug was a real gentleman and insisted on gentlemanly conduct on the site. It works out really well.

As to retailers overcharging for 16 ga shells, I guess they think that because we're gentlemen we must be rich or something. That misconception, combined with the ammo companies' insistence on loading only a few combinations and the predilection among the gentlemen and gentlewomen who use 16ga for using older, classic guns has had some really beneficial side effects. First, we share our recipes for handloaded shells that meet, or exceed, factory specs and performance in the 16ga, across the whole range of uses. Second, we've managed to create the single most comprehensive database of low-pressure loads for any of the gauges, which allows us to use our older guns to their utmost.

Anyone can go down to the store and buy a box of promo 12 or 20 ga shells. Only serious gentlemen shooters are willing to go to the lengths we do for our 16gas.

Thanks Drew, the article on the 16 ga society is great.
I agree with Dave in that reloading is the way to achieve 16 ga perfection.
I have been a bird hunter for over 60 years and until ten years I had no desire or interest in the 16 ga.
My conversion came accidentally when I picked up a 16 ga SxS and after mounting and swinging the gun, I knew it was the gun for me. I tried the same gun in a 20 ga only to be disappointed and have happily been reloading and bird hunting with the 16 to the exclusion of all others.

I don't know this "Doug-dude" from Adam's off ox- so you are waaay out of line in your untoward remarks about whom is the ass here. My comments were only directed at the bastard gauge, as Paul Curtis once called in, in a private conversation back around 1939-if memory serves. He was more genteel in his 1934 book- Guns and Gunning- where he referred to it as being "neither fish nor fowl" Get a life!

Personally, I shoot 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauges as the mood strikes me or the situation demands. However, in most upland hunting such as grouse, woodcock, or quail I prefer 16 gauge because I find it easier to maneuver through thick cover and it has a deadly pattern. Not only is a 16 generally lighter than a 12 but its wrist is smaller making it easier to hold securely in one hand while pushing brush out of the way with the other.

I shoot a lot of different doubles and find many of the light 20’s and 28’s to be so light that I do not shoot them well. Great gauges in more skilled hands than mine but 16 just seems to be the optimum choice for me for upland gunning.

Not to derail this thread, but what is the popular choke configuration for a 16ga to be used for upland hunting? IC & MOD?

Depends on the gun and the game.
If you go for grouse and woodcock, IC/Mod is good and you can open it further with spreader loads (which get some discussion and attention on 16ga.com).

For ruffed grouse and woodcock I prefer Cylinder and IC. Works great for quail as well.

$54.99 a flat 16 gauge ammo #6 shot
1 ounce, 1165 FPS
Free shipping to your door

http://www.cabelas.com/product/herter-s-reg-select-field-dove-and-quail-shotshells/1601971.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dherters%252Bshotshells%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%252BProducts&Ntt=herters+shotshells

Well. I put an laughing icon at the end of my statement but shouldn't have. This ammo problem for 16 gauge shells is verging on the ridiculous. Special internet order only even for some run-of-the-mill deer slugs.

What happens if you live in New York? Isn't there a ban on all internet ammo sells?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014...der-ammo-sales/

I bought two sets of 20 gauge GaugeMates for my 16 gauge and to hell with it.

What happens if you live in New York? Isn't there a ban on all internet ammo sells?

Upstate New York should have been divided from the city, what a shame this happened to once a great state for hunting.

If Hillary gets in then we will all have nothing to shoot.

16 Gauge Society has a group of real Gentlemen who know the gauge and willing to help others. Real problem with 16's is scarce components with most factory loadings trying to duplicate 12 G ballistics. Rather than try to get 12 G results I prefer to use the gauge as a bit more capable than a 20.

16 G Society designed there own wad to load straight wall hulls with light shot weights had Down Range make them up on special order. It's the answer for 7/8 oz loads. With lots of load data exchanged They are a good resource for SxS shooters

Boats

I did some patterning last weekend with a variety of gauges and chokes and it was quite revealing. For example, my 16 ga. Sauer BBF is marked full but the patterns are mod. I have a 20 ga. O/U marked IC/mod that is reputed to be tight choked, so I loaded up some spreaders which turned out to be unnecessary as the gun shoots wonderfully broad evenly spaced patterns. Next in like for testing is a Spanish 16 ga. marked mod & full; I'm not going to order 16 ga. spreader inserts just yet...

My last 3 outings for a stroll thru the woods, I have gravitated to the 16. One is 6lbs even and the other was 5lbs 14oz. Both are treats to carry. However when all the dust settles I think its because of the purple hulls.

I have 4 Sixteens that cover the range. Stevens 520 pump in trap configuration, Model 31 Remington I/C choke, Parker Trojan F&M, and a FN Hammer Gun open chokes and under 6 Lbs.

Like every one

Boats

Purple rules.

Yup-just check the Jimmie Hendricks' playbook-- Nice thing about the std 12 gauge 2&3/4" loads- get them anywhere, worldwide- just like the .30-06 and the .22lr (sorta on the .22-still haven't figured out the "shortage" scenario on that puppy-

I only own 16's and 12's at the moment. One of my favorites is a little 16 OU made by "Fabriques d’armes unies de Liège." It seems to love 3/4 oz loads and serves as my 28 gauge.

16ga.com is self-regulated a good bunch of shooter/ hunters.

I always swore I had no need for a sixteen. Perfectly happy with my light 12's. They do everything better, we all know that. Then.....I "accidentally" bought my first sixteen, a Lefever DS with 26" barrels. It's so good at bird killing I don't even need to go along. Now, six sixteens are in my stable and I seldom take my 12's for their outings. Oh, what am I to do!

I'm in the same boat, Joe. I'm winnowing American classic 12s to end up with two 16s--- 1889 Parker hammer 0 frame and 1914 Sauer Model 8---and 20g SKB Model 500 o/u and 12ga Beretta Silver Pigeon 1 o/u.

Pet 16 loads are Rem hull, SP16, Longshot, Win 209, one ounce No. 4 Bis, pressure 7,000 velocity 1175 and Fiocchi hull, SP16, 4756, one ounce Bis No. 5, Fiocchi primer, pressure 6400 velocity 1210.

I have been a member of the 16ga society since April of 2007 about a year after I bought my first 16ga shotgun. Prior to joining, I was frustrated with the available ammunition and the poor quality of hulls. The society’s members enlightened me on everything 16ga.
A 16ga built on a 12ga frame has no advantage, but a scaled 16ga and for me, especially a SxS with a straight grip, splinter forend and double triggers is the ideal upland bird gun.
My frustration with new 16ga ammo and poor quality hulls is now a thing of the past because I load RMC brass hulls. Outstanding patterns and the hulls longevity will allow me to pass them along with my guns to my heirs.

I own a couple 20's, a couple 12's, one .410...and five 16's. I like shooting them all, but when I'm in the field it'll be one of those 16's hanging over my arm. An old 16 gauge Savage autoloader is the only gun I ever saw my dad shoot, so I guess the sixteen is a sort of legacy for me. That gun is one of the five; ironically he got rid of a sxs to get it, but it doesn't get out much any more since I enjoy my doubles. Luckily I've compiled more loads than I'll ever be able to shoot so availability is not a problem. For my A grade Fox, there's RST.

Doug Oliver grew up about 20 miles north of me, but I never met him until I joined the 16ga sSciety; member #47, joined August of 2004. He was a fine gentleman and gone way too soon; I miss him.

Love my 16's. I have more 16's than any other gauge. My "go to" upland guns are either my 1913 Merkel S x S 16 gauge or my 1938 BSW (Simson) 16 gauge S x S. Also have a great 1938 BSW 16 gauge Over/Under, and a few more. I also joined the 16 gauge Society years ago to find good loading data. It's a very civil and helpful group of guys.

I am going to suggest that "Dude" RWTF, be banned from this site. The braying of this donkey is tasteless and disrespectful. I think the group is just tired of it.

Speak for yourself here, ScheiseKopf. Dave runs an open forum, ever heard of the First Amendment? I don't this Doug-Dude, so my comments were directed against the 16 gauge per se, not against any individual. Re-read my reply sans rancor, "Mister-Foster" and stand down. RWTF

16 G society would never let some people join.

Boats.

Does not apply here.

I hunt with 16 gauge almost always. Upland bird hunting anyway. Got nine sixteens , all sxs except the 870 I got when I turned thirteen. Goose hunt with a ten.

Strange- as 90% of the membership (Ed Good non-withstanding) believes in the Second Amendment- but you say the First does Not apply. I beg to differ.Once again, I will re-state the obvious- I was NOT calling either Doug what's-hisname? on the Society "bastards", or "basterds" if you spell like Quentin Tarrantino does-- just the gauge, and I was quoting the late Paul A. Curtis. I am a cheap SOB I guess, as I refuse to pay the ridiculous market prices for either a 16 gauge (which I do not own) or even the 28 gauge (I own one- a Model 12, but it is a "Closet Queen"-- I reload 12 AA's when the market price is OK for the economy of that, when it is not, I buy in case lots when I can. I have been to many Tower pheasant shoots in the past 20 years, I always bring a 12 gauge and extra shells- I would guess 90% of the other gents do the same-just my observations. Sorry if I offended any of this 16 gauge Social Network, it's a free country, Brother..

You can beg all you want, but you are still wrong. The First Amendment does not apply HERE. The government can't shut you up, but Dave can.

"The braying of this donkey is tasteless..."

I've taken the liberty, sir, to rework your statement. Try something such as this next time...The rough and vulgar discourse of this person...

Gentleman...does not apply here.


Make mine a twenty.

_____________________
Isn't it ironic, don't you think?

Beautiful gun Wyobirds, Spaniard?

treblig1958, Thank you. My 16 is a #2 AyA, weighing 6 lb, 2 oz. choked Imp. Cyl. and Mod.

Geez! How did my post inquiring about the “Status of the 16 Gauge Society” degenerate into some of the rude and insulting comments I have read? We need some civility here. There is nothing wrong with anyone extolling the virtues of their favorite gauge or gunmaker for that matter. I am not sure why some members feel threatened by this humorous advocacy. This is all about having fun and enjoying shooting, hunting, and discussing our great shotguns. Most of the responses are fine but a few individuals should exhibit enough sense to leave their bad attitudes and negative comments at home.

One last retort, lads. Today, whilst awaiting my EKG, I read a 2013 Field and Stream, and the shotgunning section was one of the better by Messr. Bourjaily- A solid comparison between- 12 gauge 3 and 3.5" magnums, of interest to waterfowlers I should guess- and even a 20 versus 3" .410, looking into recoil and shot performance and patterning at 30 yards- apparently the "midget gauge" .410 bore is usually handicapped at 25 yards, whereas the 28, 20 and 12 are pattern tested at 40 yards- why so, you tell me. How-Some-Ever, note the absence of both the 16 gauge and any attempt by Mr. B to compare it to another gauge, and to be fair, he also excluded the 10 gauge. Very well presented- and the solid absence of the "bastard" gauge here is quite telling to me.

I will quote Paul A. Curtis- 1934 Penn Publishing- Guns and Gunning- pages 156-157: "There is little to be said about the 16. It is a delightful gun to shoot but as a rule, the ammunition is not so well distributed as the 20, and it has always seemed to me that as the gun (16) is but slightly lighter than a 12, and but little more powerful than the 20, it was in a rather unhappy position between the two, which were certain to be more popular" Further down page 156, my gunning guru of the Limey school discusses the "midget" gauge- the .410-- The Winchester co. to bring out a 3 inch shell holding 3/4 ounce of shot--- whilst this monstrosity is equal in the weight of shot charge to the light 20 bore, it should not be supposed that it is equally efficient. It is simply a freak and not built on sound ballistic principles.-- Paul later discusses the 28 gauge (I do have one of those- a 1939 era Model 12- with a 28" solid ribbed WS-2 choked barrel)Here are his words on the 28-- "It is unfortunate that our sportsmen and manufacturers overlooked the 28 bore, which is a much more serviceable weapon with the same charge"--

The 16 gauge does have a solid place in Limey gunning history- the Edwardian Era- when Queen "Vicky"'s son, Prince Edward, who was one of the principals in developing the art and science of driven bird shooting, often shot a pair of Purdey guns in 16 bore-his special order- to keep his invited guests from bumming the expected 12 bore shells from his shell bags-apparently "Tum-Tum" was a bit "tight-fisted"--Noblese oblige non withstanding--

I have to agree with you on this one. I also belong to the 16ga Forum, a very civil and helpful board. Another good board is the Upland Journal. This board has really gone to hell in the past few months. Still there are some very good people here who are willing to help and contribute good advise to others.

Best!

Greg

It would be great to see a thread started here with pictures of nothing but 16ga's.

And we haven't even started to talk about the politics of the 16ga. yet...

And the before the cabal usurps it for their own nefarious purposes, I am proud to be a 16ga-tard!

For all that, Fox, no one ever said British and European shooters aren't discriminating in their choice of shotguns---and the 16 is right up there. Bourjaily's article comparing 3- and 3.5-inch magnums would appear as nutty over there, as it is in Atlantic Canada. We see them rarely in the hands of experienced waterfowlers. In my view, "solid absence of the bastard gauge here" says more about a bigger-is-better mentality than the gauge.

I really appreciate the 16 Ga Society site. I've been a member since 1/2002. Good folks, good messages. Support it!

I believe the 16 gauge site started in June of 2004. S Long, current administrator and the guy who set the site up for Doug Oliver, joined on June 2 of 2004. No members are listed prior to that date.


Best,
Ted

I can still log on despite being absent for years, therefore, I suspect they're doing just fine.

To gain a feel for the former popularity of the 16 gauge in France, go on eBay and search "sertisseur" . The clear majority of roll crimpers will be 16 ga.
Gil

A venture into the arena of "Dick measuring" perhaps. What do you Limeys use for geese?? Perhaps a 10 bore??

My "Personal" beliefs are that skeet shooting killed the 16ga. when it started the intent was to use a variety of gauges with a decided step between them, thus the 12, 20, 28 & 2½" .410. Those people actively engaged in skeet shooting naturally leaned toward the 20 for a lighter gun afield. Prior to this the 16 had been a great favorite for southern quail hunters as well as north eastern ruffed grouse hunters. The proliferation od shells for skeet has kept prices down for the 12 & 20. This does not apply equally for the 28 & .410, they are normally higher than even the 16 though usually more readily available.
The British were never "Big" on the 16 or any other gauge smaller than the 2½" 12 for that matter. Continental Europe was the forte of the 16 for many years.
My Lefever 16 @ 6 3/4lbs is not quite as light as I would have preferred but I shoot it well & LOVE it to death. Another gun which I shoot probaly as well as any I have ever shot is a birmingham J P Clabrough 12ga @ 6lb 14oz so 2 oz heavier than the Lefever 16. This seems to be a weight range which I shoot well. This is all for field use I am not a competitive shooter.
Long Live the 16

The answer to any question about "why a 16?" is the Parker 16 on the zero frame.

Replacement, how true.
A few years ago I helped my hunting buddy restore a 16 gauge Parker built on an 0 frame and everyone who picks it up is impressed with the feel. The gun is fed nothing but reloads in RMC brass hulls and is a bird getting delight.

Not sure what they use, but relatively recently there was a guy by name Williams, I think that made 8ga doubles made on 10ga frames. He also sold 8ga Bismuth shells.

Another good one was old 16ga Sterlingworth made in Philadelphia Pa. made with light weight barrels. I almost bought one with #3? barrels, but passed because it had some hobo single non-selective trigger that would not re-set to discharge the left barrel.

RWTF, if we're gonna quote old gun writers, how about this one from Major Charles Askins: "For my own use, if I could own but one gun, that one would be a 16-bore, 6-3/4 pounds weight, 30 inch barrels, one barrel modified and the other full choke..."

Per Elmer Keith on page 103 in his book Shotguns, Keith wrote, “For either a man or women who wants a very fine upland gun that is light enough to carry all day and will regularly kill large birds like pheasant to 50 or 55 yard, we believe they look no further than 2 ¾ inch chambered 16 bore gun.”

16 gauge 1948 Winchester Model 21, 6.75 lbs, 30", Full/ Imp Mod

Well, there ya go!

Chuck Askins was a Major. Paul A. Curtis a Captain. RHIP-- so, I guess I should buy a 16 gauge M21- or M12???

Charles Askins was a Colonel...You should buy a Mossberg...

Of all the gauges of the M-21, none look as proportional or as pleasing to my eye as does the 16 ga., splinter forend. Nice gun, Mr. Cash. Gil

I have 7 16 gauge guns. 6 SxS and one M12 (To keep RWTF Happy).

They are all a pleasure to shoot and I have taken every kind of bird I hunt with one, from preserve quail to wild turkey and everything in between.

I try and live my life not feeling jealousy, but I am jealous!!! what a gun! thanks for sharing....that 16 gauge model 21 is SWEET!

As I recall the Senior Charles Askins was a Major, Charles the Jr was a Colonel. Jr once stated the only "Bad Advice" his father ever gave him was to use a 16ga double. That was when I lost virtually all faith in anything Jr had to say. Don't recall ever reading anything he wrote that changed my mind. This was one case in my opinion the chip fell a fur piece from the block.

Here's a 1936 Model 12, 16 gauge, Solid Rib Skeet for RATM.
Original wood too!

RATM-- ROTM- right on the money. RATM-- Vas ist Los??

You can't be a Colonel- Lt. or full bird, without first being a Major. No big deal. In my 12 years as a Marine ( 8 of which were as a NCO) I had to salute them all. The best officers were the Mustangs and the Warrant Officers, the worst were the Annapolis graduates-

I believe that confidence is everything...guns, women, occupation, you name it...if you are confident with a 20, or a 12, or a 16, great! Shoot it!

Back in the day the 16 gauge was considered to be the "Queen of the Uplands" in the US because our 12 gauge guns tended to be quite heavy - in the 7-1/2 to 8-1/2lb range. Many considered them to be too heavy for typical Eastern upland work although that was not the opinion of the majority of Midwest pheasant hunters.

In the UK where the 12 bore guns being made in the early 1900's were relatively light a typical double weighed around 6lb 12oz and some were made weighing in at 6lb 4oz. 16 bores in the UK although used by several prominent people such as the Prince of Wales and Lord Walsingham were generally made for youths or ladies. Over there the 12 bore predominated then as it does now.

Are we still talking about the 16 ga society?

I appears that my thread has morphed into a general discussion of 16 gauge guns and loads. That's okay.

I remember Morph and Mindy. Great TV show indeed. Is there a: 20 gauge society? a 28 gauge society? a .410 society? Most serious shotgunners tend toward a 12 gauge- you can shoot 7/8 ounce lite loads, get 2.5" shells for your Limey doubleguns from RST, and when out in Nebraska or the Dakotas in late Oct-into Nov. after "ditch parrots"- every Mom and Pop small town hardware will have 12 gauge shells- not so certain about 16's. Why not ask all the Pheasant Hunting operations that advertise in Shooting Sportsman how many of their clients shoot 16 or 20 gauge shotguns when they are paying 4 figures for 3 days hunting cacklebirds-with room and board?? When the money is on the line, the 12 is just fine..

I love my 28, my 20, my 16's and my 12's...I have plenty of room in my rig to transport several guns and the shells needed to hunt with them. Limits are pretty low these days for even a mediocre shot like me to not run out of shells...to each is own.

Ah .. Morph (Mork) and Mindy and then there was Cheers with Cliff Clavin dispensing wisdom. Cliff was not a 16 Ga. fan and often argued his point ad nauseam.
Yes, there is a 28 gauge society. I think that everyone acknowledges that commercial 16 Ga. ammo is lacking in both quantity and ejecta diversity.
That said, in my opinion there is no finer upland bird gun than a 16 Ga. Game gun and I define game gun as a SxS weighing 6 lbs, with a straight stock, splinter forend and double triggers, choked Imp. Cyl. and Modified. And reloads make the gauge perfect.

what I love about my sub-gauge guns has nothing to do with shooting them...it has to do with the 99% of the time that I am simply carrying them...they a joy to carry. I recall taking an aya 4/53 20 gauge from a gun rack about ten years ago, and "getting it" instantly....12's don't affect me that way, but maybe there are some that would....but like someone had written, it was like taking a petite lady onto the dance floor...much different than anything I had experienced....

I agree. I am, and will be for the foreseeable future, a 12 ga. man, primarily. I shoot a lot of sporting clays, and the 12 ga. is simply the king at that game. But, in the last few years I have become more and more enamored with sub-gauge double-guns for hunting. My latest, a 16 ga. AE Fox (1919) has 30" barrels, but I have never held a gun in my hands that felt more lively and agile, without being overly quick to move. It is a joy to look at, but I really believe I will be able to shoot it well. T'will be awhile until I know for certain, as I am having to deal with LOP issues right now.

SRH

I'll be 75 soon- just aced the EKG treadmill test at my cardiologists- cut and split wood on the farm we own, walk every day (in bad weather in Wal-Mart)- no smoking ever- and as Satchel Paige once so wisely said- "Avoid fried foods, as they angry up the blood"_ so I can carry a 7.5 lb. 12 gauge afield all day and not feel any excessive "pain or strain" Shots at pheasants today are few and far between here in MI- so when it is "show time" I go with the gauge and load that will drop the bird- "dead bang"--And as I have confidence in the 12's I own and shoot, there you have it.

As for the implied reference to the character Cliff Clavin (a Mama's boy) played quite well by actor John Rastusberger--I doubt he would know a 16 gauge from his left nut--or any other for that matter. The only reason I watched Cheers was to check out Kristie Alley's big boobs.

I am most happy to hear of your good health and fine physical condition, Francis. But, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the reason many of us are enamored of the sub-gauge guns. I'm in pretty good shape myself, and work and run a row-crop farm full time, but matching the gauge to the bird has naught to do with strength or stamina. You chase ditch roosters, fine. I use a 12 ga. exclusively for ducks, too. But, it is immensely more fun, and just as productive for me, to use .410s through 16s for more diminutive game birds ...... doves, quail.

Expand your horizons a bit, ol' man. Accept that there are folks in this world who can do the job on their choice of upland game very well without 1 1/8 of shot.

SRH

I think you made a great statement there, Stan. I use 12's for sporting clays almost exclusively shooting Fitasc and main races. Getting punched in sub-gauge has moved many folks to master class......a place most of them don't belong. I'm a grouse and quail hunter and do it a lot. I almost never use a 12 in the uplands usually choosing my sub 6 lb 16 ga Lang. I don't like lugging a heavy 12 around. God, they get heavy fast even if just a bit over 6 1/2 lbs. And Francis, I too am pleased you enjoy good health.

RWTF--My hat's off to you, you're "the man"! I am 50, walk year-round myself, and must admit, there are days afield when I am busting through snow in the Dakota's where I know I am markedly slower in mounting the gun than I was @ 40 or 45. I typically shoot sub-gauge double guns in Sept/Oct, and switch to a 12 ga auto for pheasant hunting from nov-jan, which usually means about 20-24 hunting days during the late season. Those are slightly bigger groups that I am the host of, and I am hunting for the group bag on those trips, so having more than 2 shots is helpful, as it is pretty common to have multiple targets in the air within short periods of time, or, equally common, I need a another shell to finish off a bird that was hit but still flying. So, acknowledging my increasing frailty as I age, I bought a benelli ultralight 12 gauge for the upcoming season...6 lbs...that is about 1.25 lbs less than my montefeltro, and I must admit, feels worlds apart...maybe it is just me, but shaving even 8 oz from one gun to the next is more than just a palpable difference. Which brings me back, in a long-winded way, to why I so love my sub-gauge doubles...they are a joy to handle. my latest acquisition, a 28 gauge Uggie, was bought because I wanted to be able to take a walk for grouse--sharptail or ruff's--with a handful of shells in my breast pocket on warm fall day...no vest needed. to each his own, good for you on your approach which works so well for you.

20 gauges and smaller are the darlings of gun shops and dealers who can sell them at a premium compared with 12's and 16's. 16's are considered the red-headed stepchildren of shotguns by many, but have moved up in pricing over the years, but are usually costlier than 12's, but less than 20's. Continental and British 16 gauge doubles, pre-war, are usually lighter than currently made 20 gauge doubles or O/U's, and many classic American doubles in 16 and 20. I have more 16's than I need, but not more than I want.

'I'll be 75 soon.....'

Well that certainly explains a lot.

Yes- I have even semi-forgiven Mr. Murphy for getting me "shit-canned" from the PGCA- hope to see him at the Southern--As Confuscious once said so well: "A man who carries a grudge will dig TWO graves"- But I have many friends (Goombahs) of the Sicilian lineage- and I also buy into their code of Omerta-and their phtase- "La Vengaza esta una plate que esta muy superior quando servido muy muy frio"..Fols that really know me well (and there are few, I will grant you in that gruppen- will tell you to a man-- "No one can keep a secret like RWTF-- Subito la dente"--

RWTF I’ll be 76 in June and have shared your many arguments against the 16 Ga.
I have been chasing birds behind flushing dogs and pointing dogs since I was 12 years old. I started with a single shot 20 Ga. and when I needed a “mans “ Gun I went to a 12 Ga., starting with pumps, SxS’s and settled on a 12 Ga. A5 Browning with a full choke. Had to have a full choke.

36 years ago I bought two 20 Ga. Browning BSS’s with different chokes and discovered that 1 ounce of shot is more than adequate for upland birds. I happily used my 20’s behind my Labs and Brits for 27 years.
For over 64 years I had never considered a 16 Ga. shotgun and viewed the gauge with contempt. A 16 Ga. built on a 12 Ga. frame is not a gun I would choose, but I do respect the emotional ties to any shotgun that was owned by a relative such as one’s grand father and handed down.

My view of the gauge changed when I happened to see a beautiful SxS behind a glass case in a gun shop. I asked the clerk if I could handle the gun and he removed it from the case and handed it to me.

It was a wow moment and after mounting and swinging the gun I knew that I would buy it. Because of it's light weight and great handling, I thought the gun was a 20 Ga. When I looked closely at the gun I discovered that it was the dreaded 16 Ga. and asked the clerk if he had a 20 Ga., he did. Soon after mounting the 20 I knew that it was not for me and bought the 16 Ga.
I then discovered that commercial ammo choices were inferior to other gauges and to compound that, available hulls for reloading were nowhere near the quality of my lifetime supply of 20 Ga. Winchester AA hulls.
I soon discovered RMC hulls and became very happy with the outstanding patterns produced by these brass hulls, in addition the great number of loads that are now available to me as a result of the hulls.

As a bird hunter, I discovered my perfect game gun is a product of gauge and gun, and depending on the user and associated needs, a combination most likely available in any gun/gauge.

RWYF, correct me if I’m wrong, but your 16 Ga. experience is not based on hands on knowledge, but similar to mine before I made the change to 16 Ga. and discovered the great folks at the 16 Ga. Society.
And another reason to shoot a 16. I just returned from getting my blood drawn and on the tech's counter were 3 20 Ga. Federal Top Gun shotgun shells and they were PINK.

No, you have it right- I have never owned or shot a: 16, a 10 or a .410. I own a Model 12 in 28 gauge, but have never shot it- as I took it to settle a debt-and as I am a rather frugal SOB, I can't make myself pay twice what the 20 gauge ammo costs for about the same performance. I'll always love the std. (and 3" Magnum) 12 gauges Uber Alles dem schrottflinten. I have two 3" Mag Model 12's, and a LC Smith Ideal Grade LONGRANGE ejector gun- all with Full choked barrels- like the late Elmer Keith said- "You mean it kills them TOO DEAD". Dead in the air, an explosion of feathers- and a short and easy task for the 4 legged amigo doing the retrieving. And as I give away 90% of the game birds I shoot in season, machts Nichts as to how many shot pellets it took to kill the bird grave-yard dead. As the late Nash B. once said, in his article "The Dove" "You've about had all the trhills shotgunning awing can offer when you see your overhead bird crumple dead in mid-air" Amen to that--or a big old Canada going ass-over-teacup over the deeks- Great!!

Thank you RWTF, that was an interesting take on hunting and gunning.
During my last 10 years of upland hunting and my last 30 years of water fowling, I have concentrated on refining my skills and tools.
I have trained my French Brittany to a level far beyond my other dogs, in that she is steady to wing, shot and fall. Recently, she stopped running pheasant by going around the bird and then holding it until I got to her point.

Speaking of "frugal".
My 16 Ga. reloads of 3/4, 7/8, 1 and 1 1/8 ounce loads obtained via the 16 Ga. Society have been patterned to my happiness, which allows for a frugal and effective approach to upland bird hunting.
Also, 30 years ago after seeing the waste of ammo and the crippling effect that pass shooting has on geese, I vowed to improve my calling skills and since then have shot only decoying geese with 2 3/4" 12 Ga. ammo.

I like blondes. Ask me to describe the perfect woman and odds are she will have blonde hair.

But in no way does that mean that when confronted with a comely brunette or redhead, that I would forego that experience because I have it in my head that blondes are best.

Sometimes, you have no idea what you like until you try it.

Ah yes- Blondes- the preference of gentlemen, as per the late Marilyn Monroe- my choice too. But banging women, and banging down birds are by no means the one and same "ball game"-- I shot partners pool last Sat. evening with a hot redhead at the Flat River Pub- and she can rack my balls anytime, hand running. Actually, she did, but not at the Pub-at her place apres. But, I digress- I don't see how getting laid has anything in comparison to a man's choice of many good gauges for dropping birds. If you like the 16-and can cover the cost, and it kills birds cleanly without crippling (like the damned .410) then that's your Huckleberry, Laddy. Oh, I heard a good new pool term- we were playing 8 ball for $ at the Pub-when the other team (two lezzies, both good players-) broke- and 15 balls plus the "16 ball" that is, the cue ball, spun around the green felt, without any of them dropping into any of the 6 pockets-- My partner called out loudly-- "Dolly Parton break"-- I looked at her, a tad puzzled-then she explained it to me: "Big Bust, No Balls"!! Loved it!!

Francis, if you don't mind, I'm going to use that line next time I play. But I digress....

Choices are choices, whether women or guns. And without trying the specific, it hard to know which one might like. That's all.

I've shot 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410. I have 12's and 16's in my safes and would like a really nice .410. Looking for the opportunity to try a nice light 10. But then, I like trying new things...always have.

Please do. I think it's a classic. The other reason I avoid the 16- all my duck hunting camo coats-parkas are set for 12 gauge only shells- mainly 2.75" but I also own and shoot 3 longer chambered pumpguns- 2 Model 12 Heavy Duck guns, and a nasty weather special ops. Mossenburger 835-- so I do need to be careful if I am shooting a Model 12- 12 gauge 2.75" chambered pumpgun for waterfowling- And I have a lighter green hunting coat and also a tan vest- both marked 20 gauge on the front breast pocket area- for the times (very few) when I use my 20 gauge M12--if we had a legal quail season here in MI- that might be more often. So, should I acquire a 16- in my senior years with memory slips now and then, I would need to get another coat and vest, and mark them for 16 gauge shells. Do they still color code 16 gauge shells, as Federal did years ago-purple.?? Hum, wonder if LL Bean has a "Jimmie Hendrix" edition of their upland hunting apparel- nice purple touches, color of royalty-and sometimes even Sir Elton John- Wow!!

RWTF wrote,"So, should I acquire a 16- in my senior years with memory slips now and then, I would need to get another coat and vest, and mark them for 16 gauge shells."

Naw, as good shot as you are, you could keep a few extra' shell in your vest pockets.

Thanks- I think. Here is how I evalute my shooting afield- Note- I am NOT a serious clays shooter- same farms in summer- barn pigeons-also blackbirds (NOT red-winged however) pass shooting them as they circle the feed lots, etc. 1931 M12 20 gauge 28" mod choke- AA skeet loads- compared to 1921 M12 12 gauge 28" mod. with AA No. 8 shot skeet loads- I drop about the % of birds on any one given day, but the ones I shot with the 12 tend to crumple in the air and leave a "South Dakota snowstorm" of feathers, the ones I hit with the 20- drop but no "snowstorm" As I am a sucker for visual effects, and I reload 12 AA hulls (but not 20) I usually use a 12 gauge. RWTF

Re visual effects, Fox, how come preferring common clickety-clacks almost exclusively in a world of beautiful doubles for the choosing?

RWTF wrote, “Do they still color code 16 gauge shells, as Federal did years ago-purple.?? Hum, wonder if LL Bean has a "Jimmie Hendrix" edition of their upland hunting apparel- nice purple touches, color of royalty-and sometimes even Sir Elton John- Wow!!”

Yes, Federal still color codes their shells. Not only do they have purple, but they have pink and red, white and blue. Pink is for Breast Cancer Awareness and red, white and blue is to honor Wounded Warriors.

Cliff Clavin told me that to honor “old guys” Federal is coming out with a prostate awareness shell, but he didn’t know what color has been decided upon.

RMC hulls are for the short term non-frugal upland hunter and long term wise money manager. Short term non frugal guy because the cost over $5 each and long term because they can be loaded over 3,000 times. And … they look very good going into a 16 Ga. game gun.

King, speaking of beautiful visual effects.

Your vest problems can be solved by a good women with a sewing machine.

So, When you see the light and buy a 16 Ga. game gun along with RMC hulls, it only makes sense to join up with the great folks at the 16 Ga. Society.

RWTF
You just haven't had the Hendrix 16ga experience.

Purple Haze all in my brain,
lately things don't seem the same,
actin' funny but I don't know why
'scuse me while I "shoot in" the sky.

Shoot in the sky-- Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds- actually, 'Chute in the sky" was Da Jimsters original spelling- He did 2.5 years in the 82nd AB- but broke his ankles in a bad drop landing-and got a Medical Discharge for that--RWTF

Because- The common "clickety-clack ptr 1950 Model 12's in my stable are my "go to money guns" The side-by-sides: LC Smiths, Parkers and one AH Fox 20 Sterly-- well, as in golf, you drive for show, but you putt for the dough--All 11 of those "Perfect Repeaters" show "wear with care" except the 28 gauge--abd I shot shit-birdies in dairy and beef cattle venues- so if I slip on some shit and take a slip and fall- better with a field grade Model 12 than my Eagle Grade Smith- and yes, I always check the muzzle(s) and open the gun du jour to verify no mud or cowshit has plugged the barrel(s) prior to shooting again. Also, most of the gents that watch me shoot "off seasoN" wear Big Smiths, Carhartts or Dickies, Georgia boots and feed and seed store baseball caps- use Red Man or Copenhagen, and would wonder, perhaps, at a serious senior bird shooter like yours truly, dressed pretty much the same, totin' a fancy-schmancy shotty gun like that Eagle Grade-or even the Ideal Grade LONGRANGE I just picked up from Brad B. today- to them, a fine shotgun is a Winchester Model 1897, or a Iver Johnson Champion- 12 gauge and you can bet your ass- 30" full choked--

Okay, Fox, it's just that you seem more than a meat-and-potatoes man to me. Utilitarian, you're not, There's something else going on here.

jimi was in the 101

Could be- I was in the USMC- never got the urge to waste a perfectly good airplane ride by jumping out and trusting my USMC ass to a static line. I heard it happened at Fort Bragg- that's the 82nd. A/B-- Fort Campbell would be the 101st A/B. Too late to ask Jimmi-and and Janis and Jim Morrison all "bit the dust" too soon. Come on Baby, light my fire (or faar-if Skynrd was doing a cover of that great song- and LA Woman- city of lights--great.

Bouef Borgignone au fond, with Handel's Wasser Musik and a fine Petrus- while wearing my Levis and LL Bean shirt- c'est la vie, mon ami!!!

I was a member of the 16ga.com board long before this board. I have enjoyed them both.

I hunt and target shoot with a 16 ga SLE, I only own the other gauges because of inheritance, or the engraving matched my primary 16.

All gauges have their uses and places, my favoring 16 is a matter of taste not an inherent superiority of one gauge over all others. Às much as I hate to admit this when when advising younger hunters I point them to medium weight 12 ga as a starter gun.

Save the 16 for when the uplands have hooked you

Last time we hunted in MT- near Billings- all of us hunting the Bow River "Cast and Blast" were using 12 gauge-repeaters-before steel shot and I was using Fed. Premium No 5 for ducks and pheasants- heavy gusty wind- a wild flush, an incomer and the older Model 12 did its magic- that bird folded up like a cheap cardboard suitcase in a hailstorm-- of course, that perhaps begs the question- is there such a thing as an expensive (Armania-Gucci-Ralph Lauren cardboard suitcase??