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Posted By: JFB Another Gun value request (Lyon & Lyon 470NE) - 01/13/16 01:05 AM
my first gun I asked for information about was a Browning in this post
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432488#Post432488

The next one is a

Lyon & Lyon, London & Calcutta, 470 3 ¼” Cordite, side lock hammer double rifle.

I picked it up at gun show in Roanoke VA. It was in pretty rough shape. The dealer (I forgot name) would not provide any history as per the estate he was selling it for. I had it refurbished by Mr. Eggleson (sic), Columbia SC around 1991. I am hoping someone here might have some information about this Gunmaker. After Mr. Eggleson made the missing firing pins, one of the hammers and whatever else it needed, he sent it off to be re case colored. I cannot recall who did it, but I do recall Mr. Eggleson saying I was lucky to have them do it. The rifle was then cased by Huey. I did shot this gun a lot when I got it back. I was intrigue by varying loading to establish the barrel regulation. If I am not dreaming this, I think I got some 300 grain Wildey pistol bullets to shot on target.

So any information on this rifle and estimated value would be greatly appreciated.











Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/13/16 01:05 AM
continuing photos








A post on nitroexpress.com might bring you additional information. A very good source for double rifle information.
Nice gun.

If it was mine I'd let someone like Steve Barnett sell it on consignment.....they can reach a broader audience and can evaluated the guns value better than most.
Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/13/16 06:58 PM
I was hoping this site could provide some info on the rifle (and Gun Maker that performed the restoration for me).

As for signing up on another site...That is counterproductive to the condition I NEED to get myself in. As implied, I have been out of shooting for many years now and getting enthused again is not what I want. I am even avoiding reading too much here
Looks, JFB, as if Jere Eggleston did a fine job on your double rifle. Below is an article on him by Layne Simpson in "Rifle Magazine" from May-June 1987. A separate article written in 2014 described him in passing as "the late" Jere Eggleston.

The double rifle was retailed by the Indian firm Lyon and Lyon, more information on which is below, copied from PeteM who posted it in 2010. The rifle itself is a Birmingham-proofed double with proof marks that came into use in 1904.

Believe it's a sound gun and it is in the desirable .470 Nitroexpress dangerous game caliber. But, because of its relative anonymity and that it is a hammer gun, will have less value than the brand-conscious, hammerless double gun buyers will want. Others more knowledgeable will surely chime in.

Regards, Tim Carney
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Here's what's what on Lyon and Lyon:

Lyon & Lyon
Grand Hotel Arcade, 16 Chowringee Road, Calcutta India

Gunmaker & cycle agent, importers of gymkhana and sporting requisites. 1896-1940

James Lyon was born in 1859 in Lundie, Angus, Scotland. He was the son of George Lyon, a meal miller (b.1829 in Caputh, Perthshire), who in turn was the son of James Lyon, also a miller, and Mary Bisset Lyon. George was recorded in the 1861 census, but his wife (Rachel nee Dow) was not recorded; she appears to have died by that time although George was not described as a widower. George and Rachel's daughters were Georgina (b.1853 in Caputh, Perthshire) and Mary (b.1857 in Perth), and James was their only son.
George died on 13 December 1862, and the orphaned children went to live with great aunt, Louisa Bisset, who lived in Spitalfield, near Caputh. In the 1871 census James and Mary were recorded living in Caputh with Louisa Bisset, but Georgina was not recorded.

James reportedly moved to Inverness where he was a lodger living with George Batchen and his wife, Elizabeth McKenzie Batchen, and their family at 6 Innes Street (see below). He was either apprenticed to a gunmaker or simply worked for a gunmaker and if the latter, probably as a shopman. The gunmaker was probably D Gray & Co at 27 Union Street.

In about 1882 James appears to have moved to London where he worked for James Purdey. In 1885 he was recruited by F W Prike who had just taken over the management of R B Rodda & Co in Calcutta, India.

In 1890 one of George Batchen's daughters, Janet McKenzie Batchen, known as Netta (b.1863 in Knockbain, Ross-shire), went out to Calcutta where she married James on 29 September 1891. In 1895 James left R B Rodda & Co and in 1896 established his own business at Grand Hotel Arcade, 16 Chowringee Road. The firm was named Lyon & Lyon, possibly because there was another firm named Lyon & Co in India at the time. There is no record of there being any other person named Lyon being involved in the business. However, James described himself as the managing partner. His assistant was listed as G Phillips, and the firm's London agents were Colley & Co of 4 Lombard Court. James described the business as "Gun, Rifle and Revolver Manufacturers, and Importers of Gymkhana & Sporting Requisites".

In 1897 the firm were appointed agents for Joseph Lang & Sons of 10 Pall Mall, they were also agents for the Calcutta Cycle Co.

In 1899 the firm described themselves as gun and rifle manufacturers and opened a rifle range at Ballygunge. They stated that their agents were J Lyon & Co of 4 Lombard Court, these were the offices of Colley & Co.

In 1905 the partners were listed as James Lyon and G Phillips Shelton, J Broughton was listed as an assistant.

The firm was not listed again until 1920 when the proprietor was J Broughton and his assistants were W Mayer and Miss Mayer, this could imply that James had semi-retired but still a major share of the business. The firm was listed again in 1924.

In 1927 when his son, Louis, was married, James described himself as a retired Indian merchant, but in 1929 James Lyon and G Phillips Shelton were recorded as governing directors of the business, J Broughton and D J Todd were described as directors, but in later years were described as assistants (D J Todd had worked for R B Rodda & Co from 1911 to 1926). H J Connors, J Henderson and Miss S McDonald were described as assistants.

In 1931 James recorded as a retired gun manufacturer living at 31 Culduthel Road, Inverness. He had died by 1935 which was when Netta died.

In 1934 the firm was sold to F B Prike of R B Rodda & Co. At that time the employees of the firm were Miss B Ord, D J Todd, H J Connors and D F D Hazells. The business was relocated to Rodda's premises at 3 Wellesley Place.

After stocks of unsold guns were sold no further guns bearing the Lyon & Lyon name were made. In 1937 D J Todd left the firm to go to work for Manton & Co, he remained there until 1943. In 1939 S K Bannerjee was recruited as an assistant, but the firm appears to have ceased trading in 1940 the remaining staff becoming Rodda employees.

Most of the firm's guns were made in Birmingham by trade manufacturers, but some guns were imported from America and Europe.

At some time the firm were appointed gun makers to His Excellency the Viceroy and Governor-General, and they were agents for or representatives of (as were most of India's gunmakers) Westley Richards & Co Ltd, Cogswell & Harrison, W W Greener, Webley & Scott, Holland & Holland, W J Jeffery & Co, Wilkinson Sword Co and Winchester.

The firm invented their "Lethal Ball" shotgun bullet which was made for them by Kynoch. This bullet was introduced to compete with Rodda's "Rotax" bullet, Manton & Co's "Contractile" bullet, and Holland & Holland's "Paradox". These bullets were for use against dangerous soft-skinned game. The Lethal Ball could be used in cylinder or choked barrels or barrels with Paradox type rifling. It was spherical and made of two (later four) soft iron discs interlocking at right angles. These were placed in a mould into which the lead was poured. On impact, the lead pieces became detached from the iron frame. The bullets were not accurate over anything but very short range mainly because they were undersized (about 16 bore) in order to cope with choke and rifling (similar ammunition was issued to the Home Guard in the Second World War).
----------------------

and your gunsmith, Mr. Eggleston:



Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/14/16 12:17 AM
Thank you very much Sir!

the Article reminded me of my couple visits with Jeri during the process. I saved the files with plan to print and put in the case.

Jeri got me to subscribe to some new fancy gun magazine at the time smile

Joe

.
You are welcome, Joe.

Must say I admire the look of that .470 hammer double. Please add some information on it:
--are the strikers bushed? That is, are the firing pins inserted into a bushing that can be screwed out, or do they just protrude through the breech face?
--length of barrels
--weight of the rifle
--length of pull from the front trigger to the end of the butt
--can you open the rifle if the right hammer is cocked?
--can you use your trigger hand thumb to sweep back and cock both hammers at the same time, or do you have to cock them one at a time?

I went on a number of sites, including gunsamerica and gunbroker and found .470 hammer guns, all by named makers at prices from $4,950 for an E.M.Reilly, a known but not top-rated maker, to $15-20,000 by Rigby who is among the best. Hopefully Rocketman can give a better appreciation of value here.

Regards,
Tim
Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/14/16 08:07 PM
--are the strikers bushed? No
--length of barrels 26"
--weight of the rifle 10 1/2 lbs, stock 4 & barrels 6 1/2
--length of pull from the front trigger to the end of the butt 14 1/2" (center of the butt)
--can you open the rifle if the right hammer is cocked? No
--can you use your trigger hand thumb to sweep back and cock both hammers at the same time, or do you have to cock them one at a time? I can't get both, only one at a time

$5K is very disappointing to hear. I am sure I had more than that in 1990 dollars!

I am also thinking I might need to value the Huey Case seperately.

Plus I would need to inventory the factory ammo I have and the reloading components
I was thinking more along the lines of 7 to 8 grande and up.
JFB, I'll run this through my value system and we will see how it would value the gun. Keep in mind that this is "value" and not a price. Price can be set only when buyer and seller agree.

Brand Value level is the maker's name influence on value. L&L will fall into BV3 which is the bulk of Brit maker's names. It will have 2/3 the value of BV2 and 1/2 the value of BV1. Keep in mind that BV says nothing at all about the quality of the arm.

The gun appears to me to be mid-grade Birmingham made arm. Original Quality grade was built-in at the factory and is not to be confused with the gun's present condition. Hammer guns tend to value similarly to boxlock shotguns. So, mid-grade hammer gun would be OQ6.

The Current Condition level of the gun appears to be CC5, "Needs minor repairs or has had proper restoration."

BV3-OQ6-CC5 = $1,336 for a 12 bore shotgun.

Dangerous game rifles seem to value at about 4X shotguns. 4X $1336 = $5,344. Sorry that this number will be disappointing to you.

The BV is fixed.

If you disagree with my proposal of "mid-grade" shoot back your opinion and why. But, baring some discussion, OQ is pretty clear.

If you disagree with my estimate of CC5, bring back some additional discussion. If your gun was CC2 (Limited use - slight finish wear, little shooting) the value would be BV3-OQ6-CC2 = $12,404.

Within the past few years saw a guy shop a gun very similar to yours, except a good deal more original and a BV2 name, all weekend at a major Vintages shoot and finally settle for $5,500.

I'm not suggesting you sell it for that, but do believe it is pretty close to reality.

DDA
Originally Posted By: Rocketman

BV3-OQ6-CC5 = $1,336 for a 12 bore shotgun.

Dangerous game rifles seem to value at about 4X shotguns. 4X $1336 = $5,344. Sorry that this number will be disappointing to you.


I think rarity pushes the price higher than that....if the gun was a 12 bore shotgun the value would be closer to 2 grande on the low end to 4 grande on the high end (based on condition)...."$1336" if it was a 12 bore shotgun is kinda absurd in my opinion.

If it was a 12 bore and we used my low estimate of $2000 x 4 = $8000....
Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/15/16 01:11 PM
I am gratful for the explainations. My "disappoint" is like not hitting the lottery ($2 investment expecting millons payback)

And to be sure, your evaluation is just for the rifle and not including the Huey case. Which I would hope add another $1K
Posted By: redoak Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/15/16 01:40 PM
I am not questioning Rocketmans values, or his expertise. And I appreciate his explanation regarding the difference between value and price.

But for JFB's info., I paid considerably more than the values that he has placed on a couple of my Birmingham guns. Something like 35-40% more.

Maybe an indication of my poor negotiating skills. But I wanted those particular guns, and I am glad to have them.
Joe, OQ1(best work SLE) and OQ5(best work BLE) pretty much expect to have a decent quality and condition case. OQ2-4 would take a ding in value if not accompanied by a case equal inn condition to the gun. At OQ6 and below, a case would be a plus in value comparable to the case alone value. So, you Huey case should be worth whatever used Huey sell for - with or without the gun. Same idea for case accessories. You might be able to add a few % for the desirability of the .470 cartridge - depends on the buyer. Keep an eye on auction results - they are the best "reality."

Redoak, post a gun or two and we can see how your price and value compare. "Birmingham" is not a criteria. There were a number of BV2 makers there. BV2-OQ6-CC5 = $2,003, for example. BV2-OQ5-CC4 = $3,594. As you can see, a little improvement in OQ or CC goes a long ways. BTW, I've no stones to throw at a guy who knows what he wants and gets the best deal he can. Having what you want trumps two or three bargains, IMO.

This system started as I tried to sort heads from tails of Brit and Continental gun values. Prices turned out to be far too complex to be useful. The 405 pigeon-holes of my system seem to be sufficiently precise to predict values and make a starting place for price.

DDA
Posted By: redoak Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/16/16 04:01 AM
Rocketman

Sure! You helped me a couple of years ago with some values, but I cannot find the messages. And I cannot seem figure out how to to post photos here. But I have a W. Hodgson 2" 12 bore BLNE that we could run thru your system. I'll PM you to share photos, you are welcome to post them here if you like.
Good with me, Redoak.

DDA
Posted By: redoak Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/16/16 01:23 PM
Rocketman

You have a PM
Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/16/16 02:02 PM
Rocketman, I am following your grading system. (Following but not fully knowing) IF, I were to want to get involved in collecting more Double Guns, I would want to discuss your matrix farther.

But too keep me on track for my cursory inquire, please provide the meaning of "SLE & BLE".

On a personal note, as I mentioned in my first "Browning value" post, I had lost my interest in guns for a few decades and now wondering what will (or should) happen to my collection (mainly modern common rifles). In the remote chance, the L&L was of significant value (>$20K), I would feel the need to dispose of it so I could ensure getting that amount. But with the realization the gun is not some new found lost treasure, I'll now just keep and enjoy looking at it.

Joe
Another thought. You might want to contact Champlin's in Enid, OK for an appraisal. They purvey probably more double rifles than anyone in the country and have for the better part of 30 years as I understand. It might be worth the fee to establish an accurate ballpark figure. Good luck and nice rifle to boot.
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: Rocketman

BV3-OQ6-CC5 = $1,336 for a 12 bore shotgun.

Dangerous game rifles seem to value at about 4X shotguns. 4X $1336 = $5,344. Sorry that this number will be disappointing to you.


I think rarity pushes the price higher than that....if the gun was a 12 bore shotgun the value would be closer to 2 grande on the low end to 4 grande on the high end (based on condition)...."$1336" if it was a 12 bore shotgun is kinda absurd in my opinion.

If it was a 12 bore and we used my low estimate of $2000 x 4 = $8000....


I think my estimate is closer to reality.
Joe, in the world of gun description, acronym and shorthand and terms particular to firearms abound.

SLE - sidelock ejector
SLNE - sidelock non-ejector
BLE - boxlock ejector
BLNE - boxlock non-ejector

All hammer guns I have seen are sidelocks; i.e., A type of action on a break-open gun where the lockwork (hammer, sear, mainspring etc.) is mounted to the back side (inside) of a plate (or pair of plates for a double gun).

Other actions would be boxlock or trigger plate, and www.hallowellco.com has the best description of these terms in the "Firearms Dictionary" on its site.

Regards, Tim
The top lever should add a premium to this gun.
Undated but pre-motorcar

I don't know about Double Rifles but box lock & trigger plate hammer shotguns have both been made so "ALL" hammer shotguns are not sidelocks.
Miller, my comment about hammer guns as sidelocks clearly referred just to those "I have seen." Your remark is informative, as usual, but the snide quotes around "All" is unworthy of you.

Regards, Tim
Tim;
I didn't mean it to be snidey. Many, many year ago in elementary school English we were taught there "Are Exceptions to All Rules". I totally agree the vast majority of hammer doubles are Sidelocks but just meant to emphasize there are Exceptions.
Most of the ones I have seen have been in the area of "Hardware" quality guns. I do not off hand know of any double rifles so built, but not able to say positively none were ever made.
Actually at present I have in my custody A hammer double 12 marked New Baker built prior to the move from Syracuse to Batavia which I would call a trigger plate action. J Stevens made some box lock hammer doubles. A cousin of mine has a W H Davenport 12 double which has the hammers coming through the top of the frame rather than on the outside as on the J Stevens.
I do apologize for my post coming across as snide, was just trying to emphasize something I learned a long time ago, be extremely sparing with the use of the words Always or Never. It's best to precede either word with "Almost" because "Almost Allways" there are exceptions.
Thank you for the clarification, Miller. I was clearly overly sensitive in my response. You are right to observe the need for care in use of always or never.

Best, Tim
I don't think any apologies are called for. I am a bit confused about the originality of a hammer gun in .470 Nitro, although I am sure such things exist. Tell me if I am overly sensitive, or absolutely off base.
Gun is believed to be from the early 1900's. What is the birthday for the .470 NE?

DDA
Posted By: JFB Re: Another Gun value request and INFORMATION - 01/19/16 04:06 PM
1907?
I believe hammer guns were still being built up into the 1920's.
Originally Posted By: Rocketman
Gun is believed to be from the early 1900's. What is the birthday for the .470 NE?

DDA


This webpage states that the .470 NE cartridge was designed in 1900 by Joseph Lang and was released for commercial production in 1907.

http://gundata.org/cartridge/117/.470-nitro-express/



Wikipedia also gives those same dates.

Best,

Mike
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