Interesting thread
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...cbb5792e1f04003I have not seen E.C. No. 3 specified for smokeless proof, nor do I recall loading data marked on a Belgian gun
Raimey did most of the deciphering, and more educated thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
Bore 17.0mm = .669”
Right choke 16.9mm = .665” = Improved Cylinder
Left choke 16.4mm = .646” = Improved Modified
It was proved with E.C. No. 3 : "New E.C. (Improved) No.3” was introduced in the U.S. in 1904 and was 11 grains = 1 dram equivalent; 33 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.
Pre-1924 16g service load was about 1 oz. / 2 3/4 Dram (1220 fps). (4.9 grams = 75.6 grains = 2 3/4 drams)
Load markings??:
81 may be grains of black powder = 3 dram
50 “plombs” (weight) may be 4.9 gram Bulk Smokeless powder = 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. (50 grains = 3.24 grams so that doesn't work)
24 is likely grams shot (about 7/8 oz.) OR 24 grains = 3 Dram Eq. of Ballistite Dense smokeless
Interesting thread
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...cbb5792e1f04003I have not seen E.C. No. 3 specified for smokeless proof, nor do I recall loading data marked on a Belgian gun
Ne parlez Francois, Messer Hause? Poudre means powder- Plumb means lead- Acier means steel--Voice la Meinne, ou est la Tienne??? Le Foch!!
Raimey did most of the deciphering, and more educated thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
Bore 17.0mm = .669”
Right choke 16.9mm = .665” = Improved Cylinder
Left choke 16.4mm = .646” = Improved Modified
It was proved with E.C. No. 3 : "New E.C. (Improved) No.3” was introduced in the U.S. in 1904 and was 12 grains = 1 dram equivalent
Pre-1924 16g service load was about 1 oz. / 2 3/4 Dram (1220 fps). (4.9 grams = 75.6 grains = 2 3/4 drams)
Load markings??:
81 may be grains of black powder = 3 dram
50 “plombs” (weight) may be 4.9 gram Bulk Smokeless powder = 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. (50 grains = 3.24 grams so that doesn't work)
24 is likely grams shot (about 7/8 oz.) OR 24 grains = 3 Dram Eq. of Ballistite Dense smokeless
Ne parlex Francois, Messer Hause? Plombe, Acacier, Cockerill, es in Belgique dom Francois, n'ces pas? Voici la Mienne, ou est la Tienne? Le Foch!!
Interesting thread
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...cbb5792e1f04003I have not seen E.C. No. 3 specified for smokeless proof, nor do I recall loading data marked on a Belgian gun
Raimey did most of the deciphering, and more educated thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
Bore 17.0mm = .669”
Right choke 16.9mm = .665” = Improved Cylinder
Left choke 16.4mm = .646” = Improved Modified
It was proved with E.C. No. 3 : "New E.C. (Improved) No.3” was introduced in the U.S. in 1904 and was 12 grains = 1 dram equivalent
Pre-1924 16g service load was about 1 oz. / 2 3/4 Dram (1220 fps). (4.9 grams = 75.6 grains = 2 3/4 drams)
Load markings??:
81 may be grains of black powder = 3 dram
50 “plombs” (weight) may be 4.9 gram Bulk Smokeless powder = 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. (50 grains = 3.24 grams so that doesn't work)
24 is likely grams shot (about 7/8 oz.) OR 24 grains = 3 Dram Eq. of Ballistite Dense smokeless
Drew, according to Lee Kennett's list of Belgian proofmarks, load data as seen here was only an official proofmark from 1897-1903. Can't say I recall ever having seen it on a Belgian gun either.
OK, a few things;
poudre is powder
plombs is lead
The crown ML is for Manufacture Liégeoise of weapons with fire, a very large factory operation in Liege.
I have seen the EC markings before. They appear on guns made just prior to WWI. This was the period known as the "German School". The Germans were pressuring the Belgians about their proof house. In fact they were trying to decrease Belgian exports so they could step into the market place.
In the end WWI put an end to that. The Germans did work many of their people into management at F.N. shortly after the war.
Pete
Hello:
I can not help with other marks, but about the load ones:
Poudre means powder and the weight is 0.81 grams
Plombs means "lead shot" and the weight is 24.5 grams.
0.81 grams is equivalent to 12.5 grains
24.5 grams is equivalent to 0.86 ounces.
Regards,
I'm confident it is 1.81 Grammes of some Powder & 24.50 Grammes of PB. I've seen it several times but will take a bit to locate the images.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thank you Larry and Pete.
I'm postulating that the "poudre" specified is 81 grains (3 Dram) black powder. 50 grains of "E.C." is 3 1/2 Dram Eq.
Why would a 70mm chamber 16g (image on the original ShotgunWorld thread linked) be recommended for only a 24.5 gram - 7/8 oz. load of "plomb"?
Ballistite was the only Dense Smokeless in which 24 grains = 3 dram equivalent. Mullerite was marketed by Louis Muller & Cie S.A. des Explosifs de Clermont, Liege; No. 2 was a Bulk powder and 33 grains of Mullerite No. 2 = 3 Dram Eq.
Yes, proving with "E.C." was not uncommon, but I've never seen E.C. No. 3 marked.
Thank you Jose and Raimey.
New Schultze was 12 grains/drachm; close to .81 grams. But how many drachms in the load?
NO dense smokeless was dosed at 12 grains. Maybe C4?!?
1.0 Avoirdupois Dram = 1.77 grammes ?
Kind Regard,
Raimey
rse
Hello,
The reflecting light in the photo do not help to see if is a 0 or a 1 before the word poudre.
1.81 grams is equivalent to 28 grains, probably too much powder for a 16 ga.
In the photo I do not see a "70mm" mark, so you can not be sure if the barrels has 2 3/4" chambers or shorter.
If the chambers are 65mm then a charge of 24.5 grams seems more adecuate, I think.
Regards,
A lot easier when they speak American
S. Bougnet for William Read
Wolffe & Co. in Walsrode, Prussia had a London agent, George Beutner, in 1892 then established The Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. in 1894. Walsrode Gray 33 grain = 3 Dram, as was Mullerite No. 2 and "E.C." No. 3.
Also looks to have been proved with E.C. No. something
Thank you Jose. It is clearly 1.81 as suggested by Raimey
1.81 grams = 27.93 grains.
28 grains of a "33 grain" Bulk powder; Walsrode Gray, "E.C." No. 3, or Mullerite No. 2 = 2 1/2 Dram Equivalent 1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. would be the standard c. 1900 U.S. 16g loadBTW: I was in Queretaro 2 summers ago visiting my father in Juriquilla.
A German 16 bore tube from a somewhat similar time frame would have a Voluntary stamp of 2g Sch. P. over 27 gBl.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Still looking for an image of those 4 letters under the rampant lion.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Easy.
The markings show 1.81g (gram) of Powder (28 grains= 1 dram) and 24.5g of lead shot (about 7/8oz).
This is a 16 ga shotgun. Those are service loads and not proof loads.
This is a very unusual marking for a Belgian shotgun.
AFAIK, only Manufrance (or rather Manufacture d'armes et cycles de St-Etienne) used to print those on the barrels flats, along with the proof loads.
Best regards,
WC-
So did S. Bougnet work for ML, sub work from them or did ML make scatter guns for S. Bougnet? I would lean toward the possibility that ML just made more examples that wears load data in either GR(Grammes) or ounces in that 1897 - 1903 period than most others. But I'll search for other ML examples from the period.
Also there seems to be a mixing of units. Dram and Dram Eq. do not have the same units. Dram is mass, Dram Eq. is more akin to velocity. Typically cartridge manufacturers either advertise velocity or Dram Eq., but not both.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The reason the mark is unusual is that it was only required for Belgian guns proofed for about 6 years, over 100 years ago.
Although I found it in Lee Kennett's work on foreign proofs, I'm sure he lifted it from Baron Engelhardt, who was probably the first to make the information available in English--and whose work Kennett was updating in a series of articles in Gun Digest (mid to late 70's), approximately 20 years after Engelhardt's articles had been published (also in GD). If you have the articles from both Engelhardt and Kennett, that pretty well covers foreign proof and proofmarks until about 1980.
Drams (volume), Grams and Grains (weight) and Dram Equivalent are complicated
Henry Sharp,
The Gun: Afield & Afloat, 1904
http://books.google.com/books?id=BFRDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg“Sportsmen are now in possession of two definite types of smokeless powder, the so-called bulk powder and the newer concentrated or condensed powder. The first is designed to occupy the same space as black powder in the cartridge-case, although only weighing about half as much.”
Also see p. 445 here
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA442&lpgBulk and Dense Smokeless Equivalents
………………..
BULK…………….....................................................
DENSE………
.............'E.C.'......DuPont…...Schultze...…Walsrode Green......Ballistite.…Infallible
3 Dram....42...........36.5..............42................30………..…...24..............21 grains
3 1/4…....45.5.........41................45................32……..….…..26..............23 grains
3 1/2…....49...........43................48................34………..…...28..............25 grains
Please note the "E.C." and Schultze are the original formulations; 14 gr = 1 Dram Eq. "E.C." No. 2 and "New Schultz" were 12 gr/Dr. Eq. and "E.C." No 3 was 11 gr/Dr. Eq.
Indeed, complicated enough that Drams does not equal dram eq. Well, best stated that Drams approaches/equates/approximates Dram Eq. From the examples I've viewed, it would appear that the bulk of the Belgian firesticks stamped with the service load data were destined for Germany destinations. Like I said ML probably had higher production numbers & that's why one sees more of ML examples from the period stamped with the load data.
Rampant Lion over ?2(E2 or T2)
ML
ML hammergun with Rampant Lion over EC?3
Rampant Lion over M
Rampant Lion over M on Felix Warnier Fab d'armes 11 Bd Bonne Nouvelle
1903 Advert
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks again Raimey. I'll work on figuring out a couple of those loads in UhMareKun
BTW:
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. des Explosifs de Clermont, Liege pirated the Parker 1893 Columbian Exposition Trade Card for their cans
Thanks again to everyone; just trying to understand, and esp. establish the service loads. Courtesy of Raimey
16g proved with E.C. No. 2 for a service load of 2.60 grams = 40.12 grains = 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. "E.C." or "Schultze" Bulk Smokeless and 30 gram shot = 1.06 oz.
12g
ML likely proved with Mullerite for a service load of 2.70 grams = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains) "E.C." or "Schultze" with 36 grams shot = 1 1/4 oz.
"Infallible" Dense Smokeless powder was introduced by L&R in 1900, and
42 grains would be TWICE the 3 Dram Equivalent loading. And we wonder why c. 1900 barrels blew
And The Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. pirated "Monarch of the Glen" by the English painter Sir Edwin Landseer
In 1895, President Grover Cleveland order 1,800 ‘ducking’ shotshells from William Wagner, Washington D.C. and specified they be loaded with Walsrode, to the displeasure of the U.S. powder and shell producers
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_01/SL2501014.pdf
Shot barrels on a German 16-16-9.3x72r I have show;
2Gr Sch P/28.3Gr Bl.
This gun was proofed in Feb of 1907. This is of course essentially 1 oz of lead. 2Gr for the powder = 30.86 grains.
I am of the opinion, though could be wrong, that in 1907 Schultz was still considered a 42 grain powder, IE a 3 dram equivalent = 42 grains. If this be the case then this 2gr load of Schiltz is only about a 2.2 DE charge. This seems a very light powder charge for an oz of shot in a 16 gauge. On the other hand I have heard that German proof laws prior to 1912 stipulated proof charges based on Black Powder, even when Smokeless was used. Therefore most did not smokeless proof shot barrels during this era & those who did specified a very light powder charge as the service load. This gun would seem to bear this out.
If however this was proofed with a 32 grain schultz then it would be a near 3DE charge. Am not sure when the 32 grain Schultz was introduced.
Brother Hause:
Seeing you are the linguist regarding Dram Eq. how 'bout deciphering the following Sauer load data chicken scratching from early 1893:
PAPP 12-65 ... 5 3/4 S.P. .... 34 1/2 Bl.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Well it gets even more complicated
42 grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders“E.C.” No. 1
“Schultze”
Curtis & Harvey “Amberite” (40 grains)
Sporting Smokeless Powder Syn., Ltd “Cannonite Shot-gun” (1897)
Smokeless Powder Co. “S.S.” (Smokeless Shot-gun) (43 grains)
Cooppal & Co. Wetteren, Belgium “Cooppal’s No. 1”
United States Smokeless Powder Co. "Gold Dust"
Dynamit Nobel's Troisdorf Powder Co. "Troisdorf"
American Wood Powder
36 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders“E.C.” No. 2 (Improved)
“New Schultze”
DuPont Bulk (36.5 grains)
Hazard Powder Co. "Blue Ribbon" (37 grains)
33 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders“New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” (1897, introduced in U.S. in 1904)
Curtis & Harvey “Smokeless Diamond” (1903)
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. “Walsrode Gray”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 2”
Nobel’s Explosive Co. “Empire”
"Cooppal's No. 2" (30 grain = 3 Dr. Eq.)
Raimey: I can't find any powder that would fit "PAPP" or "S.P.", but wouldn't it be in German? Schultze Powder? I also couldn't find the grain load of 3 drams Schultze's Granulated Wood Gunpowder.
5 3/4 gram = 88.7 grains
C&H No. 6 BP 86 gr. = 3 dram
"Brown" BP 87 gr. = 3 dram
34.5 gram = 1.21 oz.
Dr. Hause:
Not really concerned with the PAPP or PAPPE(Papp Cartouche Cal. XX) & if memory serves me correct that denotes cardboard type cartridge. I was more curious on the 5 3/4 Gram or 5 3/4 Dram Eq. Also I think you to be correct on S.P. for Schultze Pulver. Ever stalwart.
PAPP.16-65 .... 4,7 5.P. ..... 28,5 BL. - Another example
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Lift these too there Dr. Hause:
ECn3
1 Gr 68 Poudre
21 Gr Plombs
Rampant Lion over ECn3
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=424350&gonew=1#UNREADKind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Drew;
I got my figures mixed up on that 32 grain Schultz. The 36 grain you posted is correct. I still highly suspect that in 1907 the 42 grain would have been the one.
Technically a dram is 1/16 of an ounce or 27.34 grains. black powder measuring cups were pretty well standardized at .115 cuIn per dram. The early "Bulk Smokeless" powders such as Schultz were developed to be loaded to the same "Measure" (Not weight) as black. Thus was born dram equivalent.
A 3 dram load of black weighs 82 grains. The same volume of Schultz weighs 42 grains, thus the reference to it being a 42 grain powder.
Dense Smokeless powders, such as Ballistite, Infallible Etc were to be loaded by grain weight & "NOT" by a black powder measure. A dram equivalent was often stated on these as well but only meant that that many grains of the powder would approximately equal the specified number of drams of Black in power.
Thus if 24 grains of Infallible was said to be a 3 DE load it still meant you were to weigh out 24 grains. It was not intended to be loaded to a 3 dram weight or by a 3 dram black powder measure as was the bulk powders. It was purely a reference as to expected velocity.
A lot of folks who had been loading the bulk got confused on this & blew up some good guns in the process, most of which were blamed on those "Damascus" barrels, but it wasn't Damascus' fault, it was just a good kicking post for one's own stupidity.
2-piper, you have hit the nail square upon the head: "It was purely a reference as to expected velocity." Let's leave it @ that.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
2-piper, you have hit the nail square upon the head: "It was purely a reference as to expected velocity." Let's leave it @ that.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
"Where's the 'Ka-Boom' then?"
Oui, mon ami- those Frenchies sure love their can- even twice: can can, n'ces pas? Le Reynard!!
Francis, what concoction are you partaking this am? The 'Ka-Boom' is the end result when you don't have your ps & qs proper and you load with Dram Eq. as mass like Dram.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks again Raimey; just what I was looking for.
20g
1.68 grams = 26 grains of a 33 grain bulk powder = 2 1/4 Dr. Eq.
21 grams = 3/4 oz. shot
As always, glad to render aid. Hause, what is the associated velocity for two and quarter Dram Eq.?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
3/4 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. is also about 1200 fps.
Interesting that the 12g, 16g and 20g loads we have documented are all about 1200 fps.
Just as I surmised. Also empirically I've found with muzzle loaders if you fancy being lethal you need to approach 1200 fps.
Wearing your top hat today?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
Unfortunately, even we Sovereign Grace Missionary Baptists think we were founded by with that John fella on the other side of the Jordan, and Reformation Day is rarely mentioned
And I look pretty funny in a Mortarboard
John Calvin was asked why he wore the funny hat while preaching:
"It's cold...and there are pigeons."
Howdy there, Mein Fruend- and happy Hollow-weinie. I love the Martian character from the Bugs Bunny cartoon classics- and his tag line- "Where's the Kaboom"? Almost as much as my favorite cartoon character of all time- Yosemite Sam and his great tag line- "I'm a' steppin''' punkin gin is the tour de force beverage for our Sar 31 festivities- I'm sippin' some on the rocks right now as I watch the Florida seminoles stomp them Syracuse Orangemen-- Go 'Noles'' don't forget to set back your Rolex tonight, amigo-- time change time again--
Interestingly if you put 1 1/16oz in a 12ga, 7/8oz in 16ga & 3/4oz in a 20 ga they will all have a shot column length of around .730" in an "On size" bore with no shot collars involved, just the shot in a bare bore. With a proportionate powder charge all would give similar ballistics @ similar pressures using the same powder. Due to a lesser percentage of the shot in bore contact the 12 pressure would be a bit lower & this was generally taken advantage of by upping to 1 1/8oz.
Stepping up just a bit it will be found that 7/8oz in the 20, 1oz in the 16 & 1 3/16+oz in the 12 again have a near equal column length or load density. Again also the 12 will be found loaded slightly heavier @ 1¼oz.
Most of the old loads were developed around existing powder availability, they didn't just happen Haphazardly.
Francis:
Is a Punkin' Gin akin to Pink Gin? I knew you not to be a temperance man but I pegged you as a fella who stood a dram of Whisky quite often. I reside in Punkin Centre so I know all 'bout pumpkins. I can't tell time on an open face time piece so I worry not 'bout the change from Daylight Savings Time, which was designed to increase the GDP. I hold to GMT(actually GPS time which began 1.06.1980).
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
A temperance man, indeed you jest, amigo mio. I'm a Mick Green Irisher-love my whiskey indeed. But Punkin Gin is not quite Pink Gin--we hollow out a nice round Pumpkin in early October, removing the seeds and pulp, fill it with any old brand of gin, re-seal the cut off top with candle wax, and store in a cool place out of the sun- open it up on Halloween, filter the liquid through a regular coffee filer, chill, serve in a tumbler over crushed ice and with a big chuck of fresh cut lime (guards against scurvy, matey) and sip and savor. As I mentioned limes and scurvy, and it is the All Hallows Even, is it not- here's a scurvy/sailor oriented joke -- Neighborhood spinster loves Trick or Treat- being unmarried and childless, she savors the once a year chance to chat up the costumed kids that come to her doorstep for treats- "Oh my, you're Little Bo Peep, aren't you, she might ask-- So when Davey Jones comes dressed as Blackbeard the pirate, she hands him a carmel apple and says-- "Well, shiver my timbers, you're a pirate, aren't you?"-- "That's right, Lady, I'm a real pirate-arrgh!"-- "Well, she replied, if you are a Pirate, tell me, where are your buccanners?" "They're under me Buckin' hat Lady", was the answer!! Prosit! RWTF
MAX - 2 GR 72 POUDRE
- 31 GR 50 PLOMBS
M-L A&D Body Action
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Max. load
2.72 gram powder = 42 grains = 3 Drams of Schultze (SCH)
31.5 gram lead = oddly about 1 1/10 oz. shot. 32 gram = about 1 1/8 oz.
