Just out of curiosity, wondering what everyone thinks of this gun:

http://www.willoughbymccabe.com/d.php?gid=890

Apparently originally a 12 bore, enlarged to 10 bore but with ample wall thickness throughout, chamber sleeved by Merrington, Briley chokes installed along with a modern recoil pad.

If you would consider buying it, what would you pay for it? Not planning on purchasing, just curious particularly given that I have a similarly overbored hammer gun (which I posted about previously) and am deciding what to do with it.

I think it was made as a 10 bore, then chambered sleeved down to 12 bore.

You may be right - although I think actual bore measurements would be helpful. I emailed about it and never got a response. The description is somewhat ambiguous: "The barrels are 30" with 10 Gauge dimensions"

I would never recommend that a friend of mine purchase a sleeved gun. No big deal except that such a gun can never be resold.

I thought chamber sleeving had grown in popularity somewhat perhaps making it less of a resale issue?

Dig has an interesting article on it on his website:

http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/chamber-sleeving/

As long as the buyer knows it's been sleeved why can't it be resold?

Steve

Because eightbore will never recommend it be bought! LOL

"Dan," I would advise, 'no,' concerning this particular W & C Scott hammer-gun. In my opinion, it is over-priced and appears to have been gussied up just for resale. As much as I greatly admire Kirk Merrington's highly professional work, this means nothing with respect to the appropriateness of your contemplated purchase here. Nor would I want an antique gun, especially a hammer-gun, altered to accept Briley chokes, which is simply unseemly and perhaps mechanically unsound at one.

I have viewed many a 10- or 12-bore W & C Scott gun sell at auction, both here and abroad, for much, much less than this asking price. For example, I recall that a 10-bore W & C Scott from approximately the same era sold at the recent James D. Julia auction for 1/3rd the retail price of the gun you are considering for purchase. As well, the auction house gun was in first rate, unaltered condition.

I often recommend the purchase of a W & C Scott hammer-gun to those interested in the purchase of a hammer-gun, as it is an excellent, quality and sturdy gun usually obtainable for a reasonable price. I also recommend the Charles Daly hammer-gun for the same reasons.

Although, in my opinion, this gun is not to be recommended because it would not begin to pass my initial personal inspection (A prescient aside: There should be a special area reserved in Hades for those who blue or black the hammers of antique or vintage hammer-guns.). And if I would not personally consider its purchase, there is no chance it would be recommended by me for purchase by someone else.

Good luck with your search!


Regards,

Edwardian

Cyril Adams, I understand, was one of the ones who started sleeving down 10s to 12 for use in helice and the pigeon ring. The guns become overbored 12s and the extra wall thickness and heft of the 10 makes modern ammo an option. In this case the Briley chokes give additional versatility. I'd recommend this gun to anyone who wanted a hammergun for competition shooting. Is it overpriced? Maybe, but it depends on what you want.

Edwardian, thank you for the advice. I wasn't contemplating the purchase of that particular gun as much as looking to it for inspiration.

I already am in possession of an 1879 WW Greener hammer gun. Although the gun was originally proofed as a 12 bore, the chambers and barrels have been enlarged to 10 bore dimensions. First, let me say the gun has ample wall thickness throughout the barrels as measured through the chambers and the breech. I have very little into this gun and it is shootable as is. I was just contemplating maybe having Merrington chamber sleeve it so that it can fire low pressure 12 gauge shells again. However, it seems unlikely I would recover any significant amount of money that I would put into this gun gauging by the reactions to that WC Scott, which seems to be viewed as a bit of an abomination.

eeb, thanks for your input as well. Versatility in something that has already lost its originality is what appeals to me about that WC Scott. However, it isn't something I would drop $7500 on, even if I had that to spend.

I guess I will keep trying to track down a set of used 10-12 gauge mates and see how I feel about their performance before considering any investment in permanent modifications in my Greener.

Also, I didn't realize the 10 hammer guns were considered to have sufficient wall thickness for modern loads. All I know is my heavily bored 12 still has a minimum wall thickness of 30-35 thousandths at the thinnest points and 130-150 thousandths through the chambers and down into the barrels. Furthermore, they are laminated steel, purportedly one of the stronger damascus barrels. In any event, it seems the hammer era Greeners and WC Scotts at least left the factory with very thick walls to begin with.

If a gun is safe as is, it is a waste of money to sleeve either the bores or chambers. Cyril Adams shot sleeved guns because ten gauges are not allowed in the games he plays. I will also guess that Cyril paid about a tenth of the price of the gun in question. The Scott in the first post is ridiculously overpriced.

eightbore, agreed! Looks like I have a very cheap 10 gauge bird gun for the time being

Sleeving is a good way to "rescue" guns which have barrels that are no longer "safe as is". Whether from accident, honing to the point that wall thickness is insufficient, etc. In Europe, the process requires that the gun be submitted to the proofhouse of the country in question--very typical in Great Britain, less common in other European countries--for reproof. Which means that you now have a gun that's been tested with the barrels as they now are, not as they were when the gun was new. And old guns that aren't sleeved may have had a fair amount of metal removed from the barrels over the course of their long lives. Thus they may now be out of proof because of excessive bore diameter, or dangerous because of thin walls. You don't have either of those concerns with a sleeved gun. There is reason for concern, however, over how the gun balances and handles post-sleeving. An old gun that hasn't been tampered with and is still in good condition will always be worth more than a sleeved gun. But there comes a point at which--either due to barrel wall thickness approaching .020 or so, or out of proof due to bore diameter--that a sleeved gun can represent equal or greater value than one in original condition. Depending on just how original that condition may be.

So, new rules, ey? Eightballer has to OK any and all double gun purchases before we can make a move. Wow- Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely (sic)..

Nothing new, its always been that way. You're catching on how it works around here RWTF.

W&Mac is a pricey store. Look at their 20ga guns. There's a beat up Fox SW extractor gun for $4600!

Agreed they are pricey - was just curious if there would even be any interest in the hammer gun I originally posted at a particular price point. I was thinking something along the lines of half of what they are asking.

It seems, however, the consensus is that not many people on here would be interested in such a heavily modified gun even just as a shooter!

I agree...any sleeved gun is to be valued at a fraction of its normal un-sleeved price.

Yeah, try telling that to Ed Good-he sells questionable shotguns to the uncognoscenti all the time, if yu can believe his BS postings here.

Francis apparently didn't recongnize that the statement was made in jest. The good thing is that he made a new friend, another poster who can't follow a simple conversation, or recognize "tongue in cheek". I would appreciate Francis' humor a lot more if he weren't such a stalker.

I'd say a good price point would be around $1500 to $2000 dollars....

First although novel it's not the most desirable action and second I'd be suspicious as to why the chambers were sleeved from 10 to 12. This is easily accomplished with Chamber/Gauge Mates.

Could the chambers have been badly pitted ?

Honestly I've never saw a Gun on their website that wasn't astronomically over priced.