Good question Ed. No doubt that they are well made but I think they seem to lack the gracefulness of their English cousins. Saying that I did have a beautiful Greifelt Drilling that I regret parting with. Lagopus.....
Ed, just guessing, but I think there might be several parts involved. First, the English were a world empire and mercantile power who supplied sporting arms over all of the earth. Second, our culture has always been closely tied to England though there are probably as many Americans of European heritage as English. And I'm sure it helped we speak a common language. There is no question that German, French, Austrian, and even some of the Russian arms of that period compare favorably with anything England created. But most of their work remained at home. I agree with you, even some of the communist era guns display outstanding craftsmanship.
Theres no dougthing that the germans make good guns but most of the field grade ones i have handled i would call well made uninspiring, basic wood,a very basic attempt at engraving and a dam cheek piece which i hate .I have handled a couple of very exspenive germans and they were works of art. for some reason i like the feel of spainish/italian guns better hard to explain really
Ask a dealer which shotguns are the best and he will invariably give something he wants to sell as an example.... Ask a die-hard collector which is the best and he will invariably hold forth on the ones he collects. Ask a true gunsmith, one who makes a living working on guns, which are the best and German guns will rank at or near the top of his list.
I just appraised a German Combination O/U on the 2015 series of the Arizona Collectibles TV show this past week. I personally believe this is an exquisite example of continental gun making and would be pleased to have it in my own collection. I believe it's the second or third appraisal on this particular show which you can watch on the video link below. Jim
German guns, even the Field Grades, seem to command higher prices than their Spanish and even Belgian equivalents. True, the engraving styles, especially the deep relief types are different than the English style, and are a matter of personal taste. The Kerner-Anson action, in my opinion, is superior to the regular A&D type, and is much safer. Fritz liked to carry his gun slung, so when you walk down a muddy forest hill and your feet go out from under you, a gun with the K-A action won't go off and blow the back of your head off when the butt hits the ground. Left barrels often being regulated for slugs was also often a typical German feature. Versatile guns for versatile hunting styles, much like their dogs.
I have a friend trying to sell a nice mid-grade (basic game scene engraving, 16ga) Sauer with a hidden third bite instead of a crossbolt, he had it priced at $1800. I think he has it underpriced.
One of the points the guys over on the German Guns forum keep reiterating is that the post-war guns were made by the same craftsmen, so essentially the quality was the same, despite the guns being made in the glorious worker's paradise of East Germany.
One problem is that too many German guns are not "name" guns but guild guns or retailer names few here know. All the name first buyers are hard pressed to come up with more than two or three German makers.
I never was a fan of their engraving. Some think cheek pieces belong on rifles only. The wood often goes from plain to oak. Horn trigger guards look thick and clumsy to some. There are a lot of reason why German gun bring so little which is good for those who like them. Just not too good if you have one for sale.
I just appraised a German Combination O/U on the 2015 series of the Arizona Collectibles TV show this past week. I personally believe this is an exquisite example of continental gun making and would be pleased to have it in my own collection. I believe it's the second or third appraisal on this particular show. Jim
Maybe everybody should just put their old trashy German guns back on the market, especially the ones with those old "off brand" rifle calibers and obsolete short 16ga chambers. If the prices are low enough, maybe someone will be fooled into buying some of them. Mike
My thinking runs close to KY Jon's. The German guns tend to be a visually heavy, chunky, brutish, whatever you want to call it. The lack of a widely recognized name is another obstacle, much like a lot of the fine Belgian guns.
My thinking runs close to KY Jon's. The German guns tend to be a visually heavy, chunky, brutish, whatever you want to call it. The lack of a widely recognized name is another obstacle, much like a lot of the fine Belgian guns.
Yes, and they'll stay tight and work well through the next Ice Age, too.
why are german made guns not as popular as guns made elsewhere?
with the exception of some of the late east german made guns, all that have passed thru my hands are of fine quality in all respects...
the pre ww1 guns are especially nice.
Germans make very good guns....
Notable makers of Magnum 98 are: Mauser, Johannsen, Heym and if you're really rich Hartmann & Weiss or Prechtl.
Although there are two top shotgun makers in Germany when it comes to those most well to do go shopping to: England, Italy, Belgium or Spain.
When it comes to old shotguns with few exceptions many have cheek pieces, swivels, extra bolting making them ugly and tight chokes and often the bores designed to take shot and ball or slug.
Maybe everybody should just put their old trashy German guns back on the market, especially the ones with those old "off brand" rifle calibers and obsolete short 16ga chambers. If the prices are low enough, maybe someone will be fooled into buying some of them. Mike
How about a 12 gauge with 2 5/8" chambers???
Ed, could you be a little more subtle about your bogus selling techniques?
I just appraised a German Combination O/U on the 2015 series of the Arizona Collectibles TV show this past week. I personally believe this is an exquisite example of continental gun making and would be pleased to have it in my own collection. I believe it's the second or third appraisal on this particular show. Jim
I just appraised a German Combination O/U on the 2015 series of the Arizona Collectibles TV show this past week. I personally believe this is an exquisite example of continental gun making and would be pleased to have it in my own collection. I believe it's the second or third appraisal on this particular show. Jim
Id say 1/2 that amount....2000-3000 on a v-good day
Agree....
I've let this go until now because there's a point here that's not generally apparent. Most of the participant's on a show like this one aren't looking to sell their items. They want a realistic value for insurance and replacement purposes and that's what we provide them. This is always higher then fair market value.
I will add this: I am an accredited appraiser bound by regulation to appraise as accurately as possible. I can not permit myself to be swayed by my own personal opinions regarding an item nor by others opinions. An insurance evaluation is NOT THE SAME as fair market value as anyone familiar with appraisals will be glad to tell you. Jim
This is just a part of what I have. One of these days I will show you my entire collection. Fuzzy is good.....
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Jagermeister, why did you delete the photo of your toy stuffed animal collection?
I was thinking it would be good to have Jim appraise it for insurance purposes. I guess you really don't need to insure your guns since you told us you rent them. You still do not even own a double... do you?
jamesm why is there a difference between market value and insurance value?
In a nutshell:
Fair Market value is the price at which a willing seller will sell an item and what a willing buyer will pay for it.
When appraising an item for insurance purposes one has to take into consideration the cost of finding a suitable replacement if the item is lost or destroyed(if this is even possible). On items that are somewhat unique a premium is often required to secure the item. Hence the higher valuation.
I should also add that appraising in NOT an exact discipline and this is particularly true when dealing with items crafted in small numbers as is the case with this shotgun.
One problem is that too many German guns are not "name" guns but guild guns or retailer names few here know. All the name first buyers are hard pressed to come up with more than two or three German makers.
A noteworthy portion of the higher Original Quality grade guns were made by the "local village gunmaker." The Germans seem to have been somewhat more loyal to the local guy than were the Brits. Germans have historically identified with their state first and country second. In all fairness, though, the Manchester area textile czars would rather have had a poke in the eye with a sharp stick than patronized a London gun shop. So, everyone in the village knew perfectly well who made the guns. Therefore, the gunmaker's name on the gun would have been superfluous and was rarely done. The result is a German masterpiece will value at about 1/4 to 1/8 of a Brit gun of the same Original Quality grade and Current Condition level.
One problem is that too many German guns are not "name" guns but guild guns or retailer names few here know. All the name first buyers are hard pressed to come up with more than two or three German makers.
Wishing MP could join this discussion.
I once posted pictures of my German BLE and he posted something like "The serial number is between 6100 & 6300." A short discussion ensued where he questioned the German 'guild system' and thought that the bigger makers were willing to put a name on a gun if you purchased a large enough quantity.
In this case the s/n on my BLE is 6116 and MP said that it was made by Heym.
The so called guild guns are usually not "guild guns", but guns made for "the trade". In other words they were usually made by a "name" maker for sale to a retailer, who would have his name placed on it. Often they didn't bother with the name. Some makers placed a logo inside. There are a few records of serial numbers tied to a particular maker, but in most cases they can't be used to date a gun, much less ID the maker. Mike
The so called guild guns are usually not "guild guns", but guns made for "the trade". In other words they were usually made by a "name" maker for sale to a retailer, who would have his name placed on it. Often they didn't bother with the name. Some makers placed a logo inside. There are a few records of serial numbers tied to a particular maker, but in most cases they can't be used to date a gun, much less ID the maker. Mike
Agree with this.
That said, if the records did exist, there was a very good chance MP would have them or a copy of them.
My 'Heym' BLE. It is not as 'Germanic' as most. When I had it renovated, I thought about removing the sling swivels and cheekpiece, but have come to like it the way it is.
When I had it renovated, I thought about removing the sling swivels and cheekpiece, but have come to like it the way it is.
There comes a time when a sling is a blessing...Geo
Well said, for example on a muddy Field, when your dog brings a bird still alive...But of course you can kill it with your teeth, if you have no sling..;-)
When I had it renovated, I thought about removing the sling swivels and cheekpiece, but have come to like it the way it is.
There comes a time when a sling is a blessing...Geo
True, though I have never actually attached a sling to the swivels.
Our Slovenian friend explained how tight chokes go well with sling swivels. Americans are fond of rough shooting so other than Anglophile style I do not see why Americans do not like sling swivels. Naturally retractable ones like the French used to offer were the best.
Well Jager, the French retractable slings were actually horrible; too slender, rotted in a flash when rolled up wet inside the stock, too hard to fasten/unfasten...Geo
I have absolutely given up the trouble and expense of trying to hide the fact that my shotguns originally had swivels. If you have a German shotgun, you aren't hiding anything by plugging holes and welding up swivel bases. I am going out to the goose pit tomorrow morning and, at 70, I would not think of taking a gun without swivels and a sling. In fact, everything I will carry to the field will have a sling or shoulder strap, gun, bag, and whatever.
Eightbore you are right! By the way, the Brits carry their guns always in a gun slip on their shoulders to the driven hunts and they don't need any sling because only standing there and shooting while birds still alive will looked after by their gamekeepers and dogs..! So they do not need their hands (or teeth) ;-)
In my opinion, anyone that hunts without a sling is handicapping himself. Use one of the German "quick shortening" slings, and it won't hang down. Mike
how did they make those trigger guards? are they one piece?
and could that gold wash on the receiver be original?
This might be the silliest looking double I have ever seen. There is so much questionable about this gun it's difficult to know where to begin. On balance, it looks like some backwoods New England bumpkins tried to create a "Kardashian" grade gun.
WHY is there black (paint?) dripping from the breech end? Did someone literally Krylon over the barrels with matte black paint?
So many other questions...not least of which is what gaudy concoction they used to...*ahem* -- "gold wash" -- the frame. Goes great with the boat oar quality wood and 1970's off brand pad.
Great for a morning laugh over coffee, though. Thanks for sharing. *S*
By the way, Otto Seelig from Wiesbaden was well known and I cannot imagine, he made or sold real kluncker (and this gun isn't)....! The trigger guard was quite normal in those days as well.Made from Horn for better grip also in the cold.
Well Jager, the French retractable slings were actually horrible; too slender, rotted in a flash when rolled up wet inside the stock, too hard to fasten/unfasten...Geo
Geo,
You probably have more experience than I, but it is only from personal experience that I speak..
I have two French guns with that horrible sling, one from 1925 and the other from 1937. The one approaching a hundred years old is in pristine condition, and the one made when the skies over Europe were darkening is also in excellent condition. Yes, it is narrow, and the first time I used it I was a little nervous that it would support the gun. It was not uncomfortable. Yes, fastening it to the barrels takes some twists and turns, but it is easily learned. As it is leather, it does take some care, much like corrosive primers required due diligence, and like rotted slings, we see pitted bores that reflect a dearth of said diligence.
Mostly, I think of the sling much like the more specialized tools that I have acquired over the decades. One in particular that comes to mind is the Portaband. Having gotten by cutting metal with a Sawzall or abrasive wheel for many years, the first time I used the new Portaband I thought, "How did I ever get along without this?" I have the same thoughts now at the end of a long upland hike, having arms full of stuff headed to my dove station, or even having shot my first Sandhill crane with my 16 Ideal- the birds are big, and, like a Tom, often carried over the shoulder with two hands on the neck. That horrible retracting sling was beautiful to me, a godsend.
Wingshooter, I doubt I have any more experience than you. Just a matter of personal experience and taste I guess.
By the way, I replaced the rotted leather sling on an Ideal of mine with a nylon one straight out of a Hi-Standard .22 auto-loader which uses the same system. Only modification was to replace the metal end of the sling with the Napoleon's hat shaped end from the rotted Manufrance leather sling. I don't recall the model number of the Hi-Standard, but they often show up on the auction sites. It is a drop-in fit...Geo
Cool. I think in the long run you should get excellent service from the nylon strap, especially if it is replacing a leather spring.
FWIW, new replacement leather straps are available on e bay, and most of the sellers on the French auction site NaturaBuy seem willing to send small parts across the pond, and all the retractable parts/mechanism are still available. You can even buy another set of barrels in the white for your newly acquired No. 5.
how did they make those trigger guards? are they one piece?
and could that gold wash on the receiver be original?
Original trigger guard is one piece metal. Someone added that piece to prevent finger bruising from recoil. Modern ones seem to be made of hard rubber. The blackening, stock and action finishes are not original. That is what experts call JABC. I call something like that POS not to be confused with "legendary" Pride of Spain.
