Opinions please, of who you think the engraver was on this Lefever circa 1893.

- Nudge

No clue who engraved it, but that is a beautiful Lefever!...Geo

Joseph Glahn and both Spangler's Albert and Wilton did engraving for LeFever. Is there a setter on the other side? Spangler's setters were done very nice.

Nudge, You have to get better lite and closer photos for me to hazard a guess.

JDW,

Yes, the first two pics are of the pointer looking back over his shoulder, kind of like he's reacting to the sound of a shot. The 2nd two pics are of the setter looking up at a falling bird.

I wish I could have taken super close shots, but the only camera I have is my camera phone, and when you try to zoom too close into the details it just get's fuzzy.

I've looked at them real close with a magnifying glass and do not see any obvious initials, but I know some guys are supposed to have hidden them in certain insignia's, etc.

If you (or anyone) can point out the best books for identifying specifically American gun engravers I'd also appreciate it. I know it's a big topic, but maybe just ones which focus on the big guys -- Spangler, Loy, Kraus, Glahn, etc.

- Nudge

Walt,

Yeah, I can see that now. I'll see if I can borrow a nice camera and photograph them under stronger light...these were done in my workshop under florescents.

OK, so I guess I'm NOT going to be hired at the photographer for the 3rd edition of "The Ithaca Gun Company?" Damnit.

- Nudge

Nudge, didn't see the forest through the trees. I did not scroll over to see the others.



In looking at the setter I don't think it was A.E. Spangler, might have been Glahn. Albert Kraus at this time was working for Hunter Arms Gun Co., so was Joseph Glahn. I don't know about the Spangler's still being at Hunter Arms Gun Co. then, but I do know that they both did other work for LeFever.
Maybe Walt can help with other close-up pictures. I tried to Photoshop them and enlarge them but the resolution was too low.

In a presentation Optimus Grade to President Benjamin Harrison, Spangler's name is there.



Joseph Glahn's signature, lower right corner, on a Syracuse L.C. Smith, Quality 6 or 7.

The pointer on the right of the OP's first post certainly looks like Joseph Loy's work to me.

That's my final decision...

DAM16SXS,

Your final decision, huh? You're "jumping for Loy."

*golf clap*

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Thanks for chiming in. As I said to Walt, I will endeavor to get closer more detailed pics and then come back asking again.

- Nudge

I disagree that this would be LOYs engraving, though I would love opinions or ideas to the idea:

I think LOYs dog are incredible. ( seen mostly on High grade Remington's) they are a great balance of life-like and animated. They have an expression on their face. They also seem to have a very strong brow and heavy jowls. Here are some visuals

Photo 1: top not Loy , bottom Loy ( of course just my thought, no documentation)



Photo 2: Loy setter?



Photo 3: not Loy setter?



Photo 4: not Loy setter ( sorry it is upside down)

From what I have heard, engravers usually used a type of scroll in their engravings, and it is this format of scrolls that sets each engraver apart from the others.
I have seen some of Glahns dogs that did not look like he engraved them but his signature was there.

I actually prefer the "not Loy?" setters.

They look more realistic to me, and seem to be executed in a somewhat more refined manner.

Yep, I'm jumping for Loy.
It will be interesting to see the detail when you're able to post up some better pictures. The ones you posted are very good but when I enlarge them they lose most of the detail.

Best Regards, Dean

I would have guessed Loy, too. I have no expertise on who was who, but, he engraved a lot of setters, and seemed to push the envelope with his art.

Best,
Ted

Thanks to all for posting the pictures. These are great examples of engraving and enjoying an artist rendition of pointers and setters.

Mark

I have more photos. If it doesn't make a thread too long or cumbersome, I'll keep going.

I have yet to see any complaints about the posting of beautiful gun engraving. By all means keep going.

My guess on the engraver of Nudge's Lefever would be A.E. Spangler, but admittedly, I don't know enough about the distinct or subtle styles of engravers to bet the farm on my guess. I have not seen the particular Optimus that JDW posted a picture of earlier, and thank him for sharing that.

JDW, I see the Glahn signature, but I cannot see a J. Is it marked with the first name ? There were other Glahns. I have an A2 Smith marked Sc. Glahn for Scribed by Glahn or something similar. No first name or initial.

Another thought, many guns in England had multiple engravers, so it's possible American guns could have too. That may be a reason you are wondering about the dogs being J. Glahn's work.

Daryl, Jacob Glahn went to Hunter Arms in Fulton from Syracuse in 1893 with his 3 sons. In the obituary for Jacob who died in 1902 said he took control of the engraving department with his sons Theodore and Augustus. I never saw any mention of any work his sons did there. I know one engraved for Colt and another one engraved I believe a pistol for then President Teddy Roosevelt.

In comparing this signed Glahn engraving, the dog in the background does not look like his style (maybe a bad day, no erasing here)


This unmarked grade Syracuse L.C. Smith is Glahn.



This is the left lock showing Glahn's name to the left of the sear axle. (hold Ctrl and then hit + to enlarge, just don't forget to hit Ctrl - to reduce back to normal)




I have seen a few guns with Glahn SC on them and the one by Spangler SC. The SC stands for sculpted.

JDW, here's a Glahn signed A2. It would be difficult for me to say the signed Glahn gun with deeper relief and gold was done by the same person that did this gun. But , I guess if you were good, you could do several styles. This gun is Ser. No. 1965, but as I recall the records for the gun are partially missing, so dating it is inconclusive. It does have the 1901 ejector patent date on the forend iron.

Daryl, very nice gun.
The only thing in my opinion would make it nicer if it had the stepped lock.
This one had to be re-stocked due to having no stock and is owned by one of our members.

David, of course A2s and others dressed in several engraving styles. I like the heavy relief styles, but have enjoyed No. 1965, too. My picture is 15 years or so years old, so digital cameras have gotten better. I once saw a Monogram Grade in this tiny scroll style with the Glahn signature. As I recall, the A2 set me back $2000, back in the days when $2000 was worth something.

Daryl, you are correct, the A2 came in 4 different styles of engraving, and the stepped lock was the first style.

Nothing wrong with your pictures, and yes that was a lot of money back then, but look what it would bring today.

This gun is lettered to be a Monogram, and has far more engraving than one. It was built for James C. Hunter and is still in the family. At the 5th Annual Hunter Homecoming in Fulton this past August, it was shot by the family for the first time in over 40 years after it was passed down. It was built without a safety.



This side showed a hunter (most likely James) shooting at woodcock with 3 setters. The other side has a shooter, again probably him, shooting at grouse along with the setters.

I had the pleasure to shoot this gun. I did not see any signatures on it. Joseph Glahn was still alive when this gun was made and there is a resemblance in the engraving to guns signed by him.

While on a roll about engravers, this I believe is the last Deluxe Grade built in 1944. It was done by one of the most famous engraver of Hunter Arms Co. Albert. E. Kraus. There are 3 colors of gold.

JDW,

Gosh, I'm not usually one for lots of gold. I just like an understated use of it. But this gun is exquisite. And I very much like the 'skeleton key'-like center lever.

This gun is yet another reason I feel L.C. Smith and Lefever stand atop all American makers in terms of attention to detail. If they'd have been able to stick around longer and produce more examples, perhaps Syracuse Arms might have joined them.

- Nudge

I completely agree with you, redoak, but by the time this post shows up waaaaayyy down this thread a few pages nobody will remember the "Loy - look" "Non-Loy look" setter debate.

But I felt so strongly about it I figured I should mark it down for all time!

Only my opinion, the Loy setter does not look like a setter with the short snout. The "not Loy" setter is much better

Here are two examples of Joe Loy scroll and dogs. Larger than life size.

So who do you think did this A1 made in 1894?

Glahn

I think Loy and I will tell you why. Loy often carved two little "quotation marks" at the peak of his scrolls as we can see on the above gun. These marks can also be seen on the trigger plate of the gold dog--right above the scroll loop in the open space.

I agree - Glahn.

So, Nudge... Are you working on getting us some larger or closer pictures of the gun in the first post?

So Walt, are you suggesting the above gun that I and JDW believed to have been done by Glahn was, in fact, engraved by Loy because of the "quotation marks"?

That was my premise (That is a characteristic of his work) BUT studying further, I think I was wrong. Loy used intertwining scrolls -- none here that I can see, and the dog's legs look a bit short for the length of his body--jmo of course.

Here is the other side and the guard, excuse the glare and horrible screw head

I know you boys want me to tell you about the Robert Chambers fool-proof way to distinguish Joseph Loy engraving from all those other guys. You know it too...Geo

Yes George, please do. I know you have made reference to it before - something about the initials JL cryptically engraved somewhere but you'll have to point them out for me, and maybe some others here. Thanks, Dean

DAM16SXS,

I still haven't run down anyone with a better camera yet. Everyone uses their mobile phones now!

I did attempt to take better pics using better light, but i don't think it was much of an improvement, because while brighter, I still couldn't get zoomed into detail any better.

My photography shame shall be known throughout the land...

- Nudge

While we are on the subject, any thoughts on the engraver of this Crass

Daryl, Loy for sure! George, please spare us this myth. Repeating it several times does not make it true.

See; the experts don't want this secret to get out!...Geo


Yeah it's a bunch of baloney, but it once caused an uproar on this forum.

This and too many others. Isn't it best to let it 'lie' and move on to discussions of merit?? At any rate, I am done with this post

Nudge, you're right about so many folks these days do all of their photography with their 'phone cameras'. I edit a small magazine and the majority of pictures I receive from authors are taken with their phones. The problem is that the format in which the pictures are taken can't be expanded large enough for publication without losing a lot of detail. Large format, high resolution is the key for good quality digital pictures.