The first bird season, doves, is almost here and while I will shoot everything from a .410 to a 12 by the time seasons end in February, my favorite is the 16, and this Hinton & Sons non-ejector boxlock is my favorite 16 gauge double. Anyone else care to share a pic of their favorite bird gun?

Favorite? Gosh, I don't know. I'll start the dove season with a Beretta 20ga 686 Black Onyx I've been practicing with this summer. I had Cole's in Maine convert the single trigger to double and love it.

I'll shoot early season teal in September with the same gun probably. Second season doves brings out the 16ga guns in 1899 Remington, pre-13 grade two L. C. Smith, the Greeners, and 'star grade' Ithaca NID.

"Real ducks" and late season doves will graduate to the 12's in W&C Scott and Son hammer, L. C. Smith Specialty grade, Fox pin guns, and the Spanish Laurona and J.J. Sarasqueta (widow and sons).

The small game season out to the end of February will be an assortment of 20ga and 16ga Parkers (VH and Trojan), 20ga Ithaca Flues, and ithaca NIDs.

Spring Turkey will be the single shot 3" and 3.5" 12s and maybe the W&C Scott big 10 hammer-gun (if I have strength enough to tote it into the woods).

Maybe you can see why I am conflicted about my favorite gauge!...Geo

Favorite guns --- yes. Favorite gauge --- no. For reduced complexity, I shoot 12 gauge in loads of 3/4 oz to one step short of crew served as the occasion warrants. This is one way to do it, but no judgment on my part as to good, better, or best. Occasionally, I shoot a bit of .410 clays.

Favored gun is a Woodward top lever bar action hammer gun. Favored .410 is a Browning Superposed.

DDA

16 gauge and smaller.Bobby

After much trial and error, I've arrived at an English BLE 16 as well. If I had to only use one gun for upland work, this one could do it all. Thankfully, I do have a few other options.

16ga SLE 90% of time

16ga BLE 5%

20ga SLE 5%

You may have noticed I did not mention the .410 in my 1st reply above. I don't shoot live game with a .410 although I enjoy trying to hit clay birds with one. Just not enough shot to ensure clean kills IMHO.

When I graduated from a Daisy BB gun to a single shot .410 at 10 years of age, I thought the .410 was the most deadly thing I'd ever seen. But I wounded a lot of rabbits and doves with it and came to the opinion that live animals deserved adequate power for clean kills. I still feel that way...Geo

My 16 Manufrance Ideal, soon with a second set of barrels. The 12 comes out for turkey and high pass shooting of cranes.

Wingshooter, what is that brown THING behind you gun and stool?...Geo

Upland to me usually means wild bobwhite or blue quail. Though I am increasingly fond of the 16 my "go to" guns seem to end up being my little Parker 12 on a one frame or a little Lefever G 12. Both with Damascus barrels. I've just used them so long they just seem to belong. While my clay loads are almost always 7/8 ounce #8, when it comes to feathers I up it to an ounce of #7's.

My Parker 12



Sometimes a real oldie gets to play. Charles Daly, circa 1875.



Or, when I go over to the dark side-- covey rise with a single shot 16.

I think it is a live bore mop dispenser.

One thing I do know he has good taste in dogs.

I have a little 5 lb. 15 oz 12ga Bernardelli Elios BLE IC&IM that seems to work on everything upland from woodcock to pheasant and sharptail out on the prairie.



I shot a Browning Superposed Lightning 20ga for a number of years and an old hammer 16 many years ago. I shoot an ounce of shot for hunting in all three gauges so gauge means little to me and how the gun handles is everything.

No favorite upland gauge. No favorite upland gun. But, plenty of favorites.

12 ga. 32" BE Fox



16 ga. 32" L C Smith




20 ga. 30" 687 SP II Sporting



.410 28" Yildiz



SRH

16 gauge works well in my grouse and woodcock coverts. Four hammer guns whisper seductively to me when ever I open the gun safe but if I could have only one it would probably be this little no name Belgium gun.

It's a toss up between this 16 gauge William Evans and the restocked 12 gauge Parker Trojan. The Evans is much easier to carry but the Parker is deadly.

"One thing I do know he has good taste in dogs."
+1 AWS all the way!!!

I have been very happy with my 16ga Husky 310as for the past couple of years.

Last season my favorite was my Thomas Turner Lightweight 12 made over 125 years ago, Damascus barrels. Next season? Not there yet.

GLS, what is the purpose or reason for the cut-out in the stock, and what does the other side look like?

1911 16g new-fangled Armour steel OOE Smith; replaced now with a 29" 1906 damascus OE.
I am of the opinion that a pre-1913 "farm implement" 16g Smith with 28-30" barrels is upland utility, grace and elegance defined.

I am sentimentally fond of this shotgun. I wouldn't color it again though.
It's a 16 ga Ithaca Crass.
I enjoy hunting with black powder cartridges, so it gets the nod, today. Tomorrow? Prolly a different one.

That is my self-propelled four paw drive thorn/thistle/sticker magnet. Amazing what she picks up- once in a while it even has feathers.

Armour- or Armor Steel, Drewbie? I thought that only the Limeys added the superfluous vowel "U" to words that really do NOT need it- Honor, Color, armor, etc. Of course, then there is "Whiskey" versus Whisky" for those of us than enjoy a bourbon and branch water après the shoot..

Like all my favorite now dead gunning mentors (from reading their books: George Bird Evans, Nash Buckingham, Paul A. Curtis, Ray P. Holland and others as well of those long-gone generations, I am a 12 gauge man- The other gauges are fine I suppose, (except the .410 bore guns) but I'll take a 12 sidelock with RST light loads (L.C. Smiths are my vade mecum)DT, possibly ejectors-- except for waterfowling and steel shot- then a Model 12 is my choice-

Thomas Turner made "lightweight" 12's by symmetrically scalloping both sides of the stock and by utilizing a stub forend. The 28" barreled gun weighs 6 lbs, 1 oz. and was made between 1875-1887.

Scroll down to, "My Favorite Gauge."

https://books.google.com/books?id=-tEXBg...uge&f=false

Why yes, I agree completely with what Steve Smith wrote about gauges in "Reflections"! My favorite gauge(s) is/are all of them...Geo

AH Fox SP grade 20 gauge w/28" barrels. If I feel real sporty for ducks I'll carry a Husqvarna model 52 16 gauge.

For me it has to be a 12 gauge and to be specific, a sidelock Greener. Its still the most versatile. I can load anything from 3/4 oz. on up to 1 1/8.

16 or 20 gauge Fox will do anything I want to do in the upland.

That said, this custom 12 gauge Fox can do a lot of things:

Got to be a sixteen gauge. My 'go to' gun, when all else fails.

D.

No doubt about it, my 1909 20 gauge LC is my go-to gun.

Parker VHE 20ga 28" barrels. Others have come and gone but this one is loyal. I have had more expensive guns including SLE 16ga, Parker 28ga, Krieghoff 32 12ga, Remington 870 20ga and another exotic Continental 20ga but nothing has mated up with me as well on performance.

I tend to prefer my 28's but I also like to give my 16's and 20's some exercise each season. I often bring guns of all three gauges to camp so I can just grab one for a three or four hour hunt. The gauge I grab tends to be more by whim than by a calculated reason. My 10's and 12's are reserved for turkey and waterfowl only, having a lot to do with 'carry weight.'

A 16ga. in my model 1894 Remington.

My favorite is a 16 GA #2 AyA. The gun weighs 6 lbs. 2 oz. and it has been fitted to my dimensions.

My favorite gauge in fact the only guns I hunt with any longer are 16 gauges. The 16s have served me well for the past 25 years taking all of the plains and most of the mountain bird species from Bob Whites to big Boomer Sage Grouse to the point that I have given away all of my 20s and only keep two 12s for sentimental reasons. As far as guns go my Savage era Sterlingworth Brush is my go to gun but when weather and the birds dictate I back them up with one of my 30 or 32 inch Sterlingworths.

Wingshooter 16,

That wouldn't be a dog named Brillo, would it?

Nice kit, dog included.

To the OP, a twenty, most of the time.

Brillo would be an apt sobriquet, and my hunting buddies claim she answers to "No bird!" more readily than her given name, Cocoa.

Mike

My go to is my AYA #1 in 28 gauge.

16 gauge then 20 gauge. Best is a 16 gauge on a 20 gauge frame.

Gentlemen: Because I was first introduced in to that special universe of fine sporting guns, which event presaged later glorious days afield, when as a youth I proudly took hold of the early Prussian Charles Daly high-grade 16-bore bore side-by-side ejector gun my grandfather broke open and held out to me, I have been a lifelong aficionado and proponent of the mid-bore. At least it has worked in every situation appropriate to its use, and in the knowledge of its limitations, for over 50-years of personally chasing and shooting a wide variety of upland game birds across the farms, fields, plains, piney woods, marshlands, old orchards, and deciduous forests and woodlots of our home country. Somehow it has always seemed just right to me, in whatever configuration you find it. I own and shoot several mid-bored antique side-by-sides, though like you, I am sure there is that one most favored 16-bore gun. My current favorite is a light 16-bore Westley Richards game gun, circa 1891.

My universal use shot size is no. 7, although for heavier upland birds I will accordingly switch to application-appropriate load weights of no. 6 or even to no. 5 lead shot. I remain cautious respecting bismuth-loaded or other types of lead alternative cartridges (with the exception of steel shot as required), which is probably entirely due, at least in my particular case, to limited experience with such cartridges. I might also attribute their non-use to suspicions attendant to one of a certain age, together with the factors of affordability, availability and supply. (If ducking, as opposed to upland game shooting, I use instead my custom 12-bore Merkel 200E over / under, the only 'modern' gun I own, because it can safety digest steel shot pellets with its less than full choke modern steel barrels without damage.)

The circa 1891 Westley Richards shown below, which is a 16-bore with 2-1/2 inch chambers, emulates that long ago though not forgotten Charles Daly game gun. With its 28-inch solid rib Whitworth steel barrel set attached, this lithe Westley Richards weighs 5 lbs. 11 ozs. Remark the newly re-browned fine damascus barrels depicted resting on the (Kirk Merrington's) workbench immediately above the Westley Richards, which are the beautiful Oxford pattern damascus barrels intended for shooting upland game often attached to the 20-bore Westley Richards gun mentioned in the text below; although, given then prevailing circumstances afield, the 1/4- and 1/2-choke 26-inch steel barrels made for and fitted to this 20-bore by the renowned William Ford in 1933 are naturally substituted for use against farther rising and 'tougher' birds in those situations requiring more choke, as well as needing heavier and greater weight of shot (say, for example, 3/4- or 1-ounce of no. 7 or even no. 6 lead shot).



Nonetheless, the Special Quality 16-bore Westley Richards above is steady when pointed quickly or deliberately with my leading right-hand (I am left-handed), and handles 3/4-ounce 'lite' loads of nos. 7 or 8 shot from RST with aplomb, which is a good shot-weight diet for a light game gun with 124 year old wood. The left barrel of the Damascus barrel set is choked .010 or improved cylinder and the right barrel .005 or skeet. As it has my complete confidence, it is most often chosen for close-shooting game birds. The steel barrel set mentioned above for the 20-bore gun is used for greater distances because of the tighter patterns produced out to 40-45 yards.

My second place small bore is a circa 1882 "Best Quality" Westley Richards 20-bore, which at 6 lbs. 7 ozs. weighs considerably more than its younger cousin obviously, due to the fact it was supposed to have been completed as a 16-bore originally, and thus loses one of the prime advantages of a small bore gun. Although, with 3/4 oz. loads of nos. 7, 8 or 9 shot, and if properly employing its Skeet 2 (.010) and 1/2-choke (.020) 28-inch damascus barrels, a better game gun for the common quail has not been invented. (Note: The subject 20-bore is shown below cased with its two barrel sets and with some accessories; although, I would emphasize that this photograph is that of the dealer from whom it was purchased. The image shown does not, of course, evince the excellent results of the subsequent professional restoration works performed by Abe Chaber and Kirk Merrington.)



The aforementioned 16-bore Westley Richards, however, is my unchallenged favorite for pointed Texas quail and for Upper Midwestern or Northeastern grouse. The mid-bore works equally well too for close-rising early season or preserve-reared pheasants.

For late season pheasants, or whenever longer shots and heavier, wilier or running birds are anticipated, I instead case and take afield the circa 1893 W. W. Greener Grade 60 facile princeps self-acting ejector, in 12-bore with 2-1/2 inch chambers and with its 30-inch fine "Silver Steel" damascus barrels installed, which game gun is depicted immediately below. It also digests only appropriate handloads for elder guns or is fed RST loads using an ounce of no. 7 shot, or larger shot, in its 1/4-choke and improved modified damascus barrels.



So as not to forget the big bores, the 2-5/8 inch or 2-7/8 inch chambered 10-bore is one of my great favorites. It will do just about everything you should expect of a gun firing lead shot. Until its popularity diminished around the early 1890's, the 10-bore was considered the nonpareil upland game gun. With one in hand, you may contemplate the endless, unturned prairies that once existed and the varieties of larger game birds that lived their lives and flourished in and amongst the fields of one-time lush hedgerows and grasses that provided a purpose for the larger bore.

I use my antique 10-bores for pheasants with appropriate low pressure loads utilizing 1-1/8 ounces of no. 6 or 5 shot, in the main, and even for swans on special occasions, as they can still be taken with lead shot in Texas. The circa 1872-1873 Charles Daly hammer-gun (a pre-Lindner Schoverling & Daly imported gun) below, which I have not yet taken afield, but will this coming fall season, is a 10-bore with 2-5/8 inch chambers choked modified in each 30-inch black and white "Manufacture Extra" damascus barrel, which will more than suffice for anything encountered.



It is always a pleasure to find or correspond with others who also take their fine guns afield and use them as intended, and from their actual use come to better appreciate and enjoy our temporal ownership and our fortunate days afield with a fine side-by-side gun even more. With my


Best regards to all,

Edwardian



Postscript: I have greatly enjoyed and learned from the gentlemen's much appreciated comments addressing their choke and size of shot preferences for use against varieties of quail, such as the plucky Gambel's quail. I personally think that for general purposes, especially when shooting quail (whether we are discussing Mr. Bobwhite, Mearns, Scaled, or similar species of quail) over dogs, the more open the choke the better, say improved cylinder up to light modified, with the modified choke in the second barrel as the outer extreme.

Granted, shooting the Gambel's quail can too often require a different set of chokes and shot sizes, depending on the environment and current temperament of the bird, yet I have never had occasion to need anything more than a second barrel choked modified for them. Although there are indeed some acquaintances of mine who eschew all alternative combinations other than guns with full-choked barrels and who use nothing less than no. 6 lead shot when hunting this bird without the assistance of a dog on its own ground. I must assume that they too are successful, or they would not keep to this regime. So there must be more than one way to accomplish the instant task.

Admittedly, my style of shooting largely governs my choice of choke. Also, I shoot behind a dog or dogs more often these days and am an exceedingly aggressive shot, in that I usually fire my first barrel within 20-yards or so of the intended receiver of my shot pattern, which knowledge in turn helps me to reasonably determine the degree of choke I should use.

As well, if I have ever shot a quail (or attempted to shoot one) at a distance of more than 40-45 yards from my gun, I do not recall having done so intentionally. Beyond that range, I would be concerned about crippling the bird, and will withhold my shot, no matter the bore, choke or shot size used. When using a 16- or 20-bore gun within that 40-45 yard range with my standard 3/4 ounce load of no. 7 lead shot, and coupled, If necessary, with the gun's modified or 1/2-choke barrel, execution has been more than adequate historically. In environs of the thick, entangling and spikey stuff, where sighting of the bird is but fleeting at best and most often at very short distance, the average distance to the intended target and my gun will likely be 20-25 yards. At those short distances, even the improved cylinder choke, combined with the 3/4 ounce loads of no 7 lead shot, will perform and has performed exceptionally well.

If you have arrived at that opinion from actually hunting all varieties of quail, then your experience with Gambel's has been different from mine. If a 20 is used for them a load of 7/8 oz. 7 1/2s or, at a minimum, 8s, is eminently more suitable. I flat would not put a load of 9s in my shell bag for Gambel's. And, also IMO, skeet choke is too open. I have used, and will use, IC and M for them. I am reasonably quick on a covey rise or flush, but if you can properly employ a skeet choke on Gambel's in most situations I have been in, you are in a rare league. I cannot speak on this concerning the other desert quail but I have been told some of them are runners, much the same as Gambel's.



Nice guns and pics.

All my best, SRH

I'm with Stan. 7/8 oz. IC/Full for these running SOBs

"The runnin'est of all game birds" by Lynn Bogue Hunt



Then again, no reason to run if they are hiding in here Come on in, but you won't leave like you started, and you better have some forceps for cactus spine extraction and a laceration repair kit



Same, or worse, for Blues



Mearns are much more gentlemanly

a 12 bore for me, 29" barrels, 6lbs 9ozs and I shoot it as well as I can shoot any gun. Plans this fall to bring my Springer to the Dakotas and chase some wild birds.

Having hunted Gambel's Quail for over 60 years all over the Southwest, my opinion is in line with Stan's. I prefer 16 gauge and 20 gauge for upland birds, all wild, all fair chase.

As a comparison, shooting wild Gambel's Quail is like shooting down fighters ground to air....Where as shooting Pheasant or Grouse is like shooting down lumbering bombers ground to air. A very major difference.

I have loaded 2.5" hulls in 12, 16 and 20 gauge for over 40 years and use #7 lead and sometimes #7.5 as a minimum for quail out of Modified/Full Choke guns , NO OPEN CHOKE BORINGS HERE, i.e. Gambels Quail etc. . Anything less in lead pellet diameter or choke boring is just an exercise with poor results, in my opinion.

I have all my presses set up with short kits and load only 2.5" for all gauges and chamber lengths. I hunt Gambel's quail with regularity using one of my 20 gauge guns, with 7/8 oz #7 lead in a 2.5" Cheddite hull. I have also used #6 lead with good results in 2.5" hulls.


20 Gauge Beretta...M/F...


20 Gauge L.C.'s M/F and 20 Gauge Sterlingworth's M/F...


20 Gauge Sterlingworth M/F...


20 Gauge Smith and Wesson M/F (Dickinson - Akus)...


20 Gauge MEC 2.5" short kit...


Best Regards,

like the 30-06, the 12 bore is the most versatile of shotgun gauges...load it from 7/8 to 1 1/4 of shot and be ready for most shooting opportunities, plus there are a variety of slug loads as well.

and guns weighing from 6 to 8 pounds have been made to accommodate most shooting situations.

My favorite upland gauge is the one I'm carrying on any given day, but for Pheasants and prairie grouse in the west, the versatile 12-gauge is hard to beat. My go to gun for coming up on fifty seasons has bee "Meat in the Pot" my 1914 vintage A-Grade Ansley H. Fox with 28-inch 3-weight Krupp barrels. Opening weekend limit of Ducks with my Super-Fox and first Pheasant with the A-Grade 1966 --

Is that your setter Dave? Good looking pooch, I have a similar model!





The recent run of 90+ temp days have kept us on the beach instead of in the fields.
I don't care what gauge I use, just as long as I get to go hunting with good friends and good guns.

Best,
Ted

I think you can go from .410 up to 10 and anything in between if you match gauge, shell and load to whatever conditions you hunt under. Half the fun is thinking what to bring and then finding out you made the right choice or better yet conditions are not what you thought they would be and have to adjust on the fly. You groove equipment for Skeet, Trap or Sporting Clays. You adjust equipment for hunting as you learn a little more each trip out.

This Fall I am going Dove hunting the first seven days. Each day I am going to take a different gun, most days a different gauge. Day one will be my late uncles Crescent .410. He was a fellow who enjoyed small game hunting with a gun he bought for less than fifty dollars. Lord knows how many quail, bunnies, squirrels, dove and snipe have fallen to that simple double. Sometimes you get to connect to the past by using guns you'd keep in the back of the closet and never use given other "better" choices.

A simple but profound statement that many narrow minded people overlook, or deny. Well said, Jon.

SRH

Might be a more difficult thing to come up with a single, "compromise" gun, that did everything OK, insead of having a bunch of "niche" guns, that are specific to a certain game and conditions, for every different use.

Some of our ancestors had no choice. Some of them got pretty darn good with that one choice, as well.

Best,
Ted

If I had to go with one gun and thank goodness I don't it would be a smallbore Fox with four sets of barrels.I would have two 16 and two twenty gauge barrels from 26 to 32 inch with various chokes. Bobby

Blues have some Road Runner blood in 'em, won't hold for a dog for so much as a nanosecond. Nope. But you can get a few up if the dog breaks and is fast enough. Close shots are long odds anomalies.

High fliers [mourning dove] can stand some choke in open windy country pass shooting them as they are headed to feeding fields and again as they leave the fields and head to water. Tank shooting in late afternoon, sometimes not so much, but doit to them a coupla days and watch them either not return or fail to give you a close in shot. They are wary and they learn as quickly as a snow goose, once shot at. Its a part of what makes them such fun and challenging targets in the west where the wind is frequently doing something.

I don't think either of those birds are gauge specific, but at longer ranges do use a shot size that will put them in the bag. #7's, if you reload or are fortunate in sourcing are a very happy compromise.

I use to love pass shooting for dove, ducks and geese. With the loss of lead for waterfowl I gave up ducks and geese pass shooting. Use to have a small farm right next to Blackwater Refuge which gave several great days of pass shooting of birds on the way back to the refuge. Once educated your chances were greatly reduced but half the fun was waiting for the right chance and watching the entire morning or evening flight. You never had to clean the ones you just watched flyby.

Yes, as a general rule. My favorite "rule" in hunting is "You just never know..."

We were on the lease in West Texas two years ago, and the Spaniel locks up on a small bush. Half mocking her as I walked up I said out loud, "So what do you think you are- a pointer?" Just then a big blue blasted outa the bush, and the Manufrance went bang. Goodness only knows what she was sayin' under her breath when she brought the bird to hand.

My favorite gun is the smallest and lightest one I can effectively and efficiently use on a given day. It changes throughout the season and from one season to the next based on hunting pressure and habitat conditions. If I only got to choose one this sub 5 1/2 lb 28 gauge AyA would work about as well as anything.

Since "Upland" hunting covers everything from woodcock at zero feet to late season Kansas phez going downwind at Mach 2 and 50 yards out, I'd have to plump for some kind of a 12. They make loads in 12 guage that fit both those extreme situations and everything in between.

I love smallbores. In their place. But out in the baldies ISN'T their place. Sad, but true, IMO.

That said, a REALLY GOOD wingshot can do wonders with a smallbore. Not me. The 'yotes get enough free meals.

[quote. Some of them got pretty darn good with that one choice, as well.

Best,
Ted [/quote]
You of all people misspelling Darne. Gil

With regard to Gambel quail, in the past 35 years that has been the majority of my bird hunting time. I use a 20ga Parker choked skeet and Modified. Best commercial loads are 7 1/2shot 7/8 OZ. But mostly I use handloads of 3/4oz of 7 shot. I found the 3/4oz of 7s produced very few runners after being hit. The velocity of that load is not known but seems a little quicker than the 7/8oz loads in the commercial shells. The skeet choke is fine out to 30yds and the modified has made some astonishing long shots from 45 to 50 yds. Have never patterned the gun with these loads but think they may be a little tighter than their designations would indicate. The point is choke names are poor guides for performance. Have to see how each gun and load performs before making generalized statements. My modified is clearly shooting as well at distance as most Full chokes.

"Jerry V. Lape," your experience with the Gambel's quail when using your Parker 20-bore gun comports with my field experiences with that bore, and also respecting the cited choke borings, sizes of shot, and shot weight choices.

I agree as well regarding simple choke designations when such markings are compared to actual results determined by patterning the barrels and witnessing the demonstrated effectiveness of all selected elements afield. I too believe that to-day's "modified" or 1/2-choke constricted guns shoot "as well at distance as most full chokes." My bore size selections for use in the field, whether that day's selection is a 20-, 16- or 12-bore, intentionally use, as nearly as possible, the same dram equivalence, as well as charges of shot size and shot weight, in combination with 1/4-choke and half-choke constrictions, which, if all is approximately equal, will deliver very similar results through whatever bore employed. Perhaps some machine or a published table could reveal a difference, but in actual use and result, I cannot.

It may be that sometimes those of us who once used older constructs of shot-cartridges for upland game employing less efficient felt wads and overshot cards forget that modern one-piece plastic wads surrounding and fully protecting the shot as all passes down the barrel is known to increase the percentage of pellets striking a game bird within effective range and / or a patterning target at 30- or 40-yards. The improvement in my shooting and successes afield, I am persuaded, is mainly attributable to my beginner's use some years ago and continued use to-day of the one-piece plastic wad, and must therefore prefer it to nostalgia-imbued ammunition. Moreover, if we possess an 'older' (shot)gun manufactured before the introduction of the plastic wad during the 1960's, the manufacturer's choke marking (if we assume such stampings were ever truly indicative of pattern percentage) will not realistically indicate the level of choke achieved when using the modern plastic-wadded cartridges. Though it is not known to me whether the manufacturers ever changed their designations to match the mechanical, practical effects caused by the modern one-piece plastic wad or not.

In most cases, use of the now common and ubiquitous one-piece plastic wad will have the practical and obviously positive ballistic effect of effectually increasing the gun barrel's constriction or choke and will thereby increase the effective range of the gun using it. So when we say the gun's choke is such and such points or degree of, perhaps we should also 'ratchet-up' the word designation for the affected constriction from, say, "modified" to "improved modified" to accord with true performance. Just food for thought.

Best of luck to all during the upcoming hunting season! Please enjoy your vintage and antique side-by-side guns to the maximum by taking and using them afield!


Best regards,

Edwardian

Just gonna bring this amazing thread back to life

Great thread. All we need now is pics of favorite guns.
BillK

BillK,
Well okay then, here you go. My 12 ga. Browning BSS-SL choked IC/MOD that I've used for almost everything. I also have one in 20 ga., but this one just seems to be my go to almost every time.
Karl

Love the straight grain and tight scroll!

Many of us SxS heathens use the 12 gauge for everything. Its easy to handload 7/8 ounce for dove, 1 ounce for quail, and 1-1/4 ounce for pheasant.

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That looks like HVA 300 series shotgun. Very good shotgun at least twice as good as Sterlingworth at half the price (few years ago when HVAs appeared on our shores in good numbers). Yes as someone above mentioned 12ga is the king. Best selection of guns & ammo from very light to very heavy.

How would you know the HVA 300 shotgun is "at least twice as good as Sterlingworth at half the price" Jagermeister?

Do you own one?

Oh, that's right... you don't own any double shotguns. Not even a cheap Crescent or Belgian Clunker Hardware Store Gun. And you actually RENT a cheap Chinese .22LR bolt action rifle.

You are nothing but a tire-kicker who has to put relatively cheap guns on layaway, and then later backs out of the deal. How many times have you done that just in recent months?



And you even lied to us about the Remington 870 by telling us that you actually bought it. But why would we be surprised when you also got busted in your lies about owning an Ithaca Mod. 37 Trench Gun which turned out to be a late model short barreled Ithaca 37 3" magnum with choke tubes, or your lies about owning a second Ithaca Model 37 short barreled pump?



Oh yeah Jagermeister, we all believe you. We all believe that a sad, sorry, pathetic internet troll who can't afford to buy his own Chinese bolt action .22 will be buying a double rifle in any of the aforementioned calibers. Better you should go on a forum where you can discuss your stuffed toy animal collection.

Owen,
Thanks for the kind statements. I reach for this one most often.
Gold,
I use 1 oz. for everything due to the fact it weighs 6 1/2 lbs. and adjust to yhe quarry through shot selection in 5-6-7-8.
I've used the 20 ga. BSS-SL and the baby framed Merkel 28 ga., but this one resides at the front of the safe.
Karl

My go-to 12 bore A&D box lock is choked cyl/lt mod 6 lbs 3oz. I have a 16 bore 30" sidelock 2 1/2" circa 1900 choked skeet/mod 6lbs 1 oz. incoming. I am really excited about trying it out on the pattern board in a month or so. My DMB-RA is 16 bore, 6 lbs 1oz. Choked skeet/ic. Anyone see a pattern here? These three will be competing cor hunt time in the fall.

Some like six pound guns and can shoot them well. Some shoot short barrels just as well as long barrels. One of the few guns I wish I had purchased was a Belgian sidelock, 16 ga with 32" barrels which could not have been six pounds. The engraving was nicely done and wood was very well done. It was not a named gun, just another Guild gun. I just missed buying it by a couple of hours the next day. I guess the one that got away will always be special in our minds but I suspect a long barrel 16 with tight chokes would come in handy for late season doves with a stout tail wind pushing them along.

Owen,
I think your guns are choked perfectly. I think that having a gun choked two constrictions from each choke is even more useful, and I really like the SKT/MOD combination.
Karl

You suspect right, Jon. I didn't let mine get away, though it took some serious finagling to make it happen.

L.C Smith 16 gauge Featherweight with 32" barrels and original full and full chokes, ejectors and Hunter One Trigger. Meet Susie:





She is bad news for those late season doves with 1 ounce of hard 7 1/2s. And makes her presence known with 1 1/8 oz. of number 4s or 6s when the crows are in the fresh dug peanut fields, too.





SRH

Very nice Karl. What length are the barrels?
Here are my two current favorites.
W.W. Greener FH35, 12Ga, 30" barrels




And my new toy, Ed Kettner 16Ga, 29.5" barrels

Stan,
Great photos of your gun with it's quarry. I love to see guns pictured like that. I suspect we've all let those once in a life time guns get away, hoping that the next one that comes along would be it's equal. It's what keeps us searching.
Karl

Bill,
The barrels on the two Browning BSS-SL's are 26", and because of shoulder surgery I shoot their short barrels well. My three Merkels are 28" but are balanced somewhat neutral allowing me to do well with them also.
I don't know how the side safeties handle, but I've always liked how the side panels of the Greeners looked especially opposite the safety. The carved fences and engraving on the Kettner is stunning. That would be the star at any SxS hammer event!
Karl

Love the Greener Bill! Still hunting one myself

Billk, beautiful rounded bar on that Kettner action, not to mention the engraving! I bet that rounded bar carries well and the weight is nicely forward with those long barrels.

Than you Karl, 67galaxie and J. Owen.
I have not taken the 16Ga Kettner hunting yet, but I have shot it a few times at sporting clays so far and it shoots and feels beautifully. It certainly raises some eyebrows and drops some jaws to the fellows who think all guns should have their barrels stacked vertically and be a 12Ga.
BillK

I did a quick tally and only counted when someone made an obvious choice of favorite (many chose 2 or more gauges and some were not clear on a favorite).

12ga.- 10
16ga.- 15
20ga.- 3
28ga.- 3

I realize it's an informal survey but still I was quite surprised the 20ga. isn't more popular.

Because we're all old and grey Rob. A few more years and the 20 gauge probably will be dominant.

Younger fellows who only have one shotgun without exception have a 12 gauge. They want to use it for everything.

Bill,
It is my belief that game birds just might fall out of respect for your beautiful Kettner!
Karl

Have you ever eaten the crows you take, Stan?

I have a receipe around here somewhere. I think it involves sauerkraut, onions, and bacon.

Might be like that to kill the taste of the crows.


Best,
Ted

Heavens, no! I see too many crows sitting on the highway eating carrion. I'd as soon eat a buzzard. Other than that, I am amazed at their level of intelligence. I have seen them do things that are just staggering. I was once working on a center pivot irrigation system and watched one light within .22 magnum range of me and my pickup, a lone crow in a tall snag. He watched me carefully as I worked, cawing occasionally with just one "caw". When I climbed down I walked over to my pickup and slowly reached in the back and picked up a shovel, then held it up over my head so he could see it clearly. I then pretended it was a rifle, put the blade to my shoulder and aimed the handle at the crow. He just sat and looked at me, giving another single "caw". I slowly laid it in the back of the truck, opened the door, reached in and got my .22 Magnum. I slowly held it up over my head for the crow to see, at which time he lit out in the other direction just as fast as if a shot had been fired at him. I knew then that a crow could learn the difference in a shovel and a gun.

If anyone doubts that the crow knew the difference, and just got ready to leave anyway, watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerUbHmuY04

Happy Good Friday all

SRH

Animal behavior scientists have demonstrated that crows recognize human faces and act accordingly as to how they were treated by the individuals. Gil

Thanks, buddy. I'll have nightmares about Hitchcock's "The Birds" tonight. Oh yeah, I forgot, I always wear a face mask, so maybe they don't know what I look like.

SRH

Last I heard crows are the only animal yet seen figuring out and then doing three distinct actions in sequence, while creating and using tools, to accomplish a specific objective.

If intelligence is based on the ability to imagine and create a sequence of actions to achieve an end, crows are the most intelligent animal yet observed.

Takes the fun out of shooting them for me. They're too smart.

That is because you're weak. Crows are to birds what coyotes are to mammals. Successful small game management requires corvid control. I don't mind shooting them.

It's no fun shooting something that is stupid, James.

Crows are a real challenge, and yet at times they can do the dumbest things. Why they keep circling back when they see their cohorts being knocked out of the sky by those "loud sounds" I'll never understand.

Errrr, this is an upland gauge topic, supposedly ........ are crows upland birds?

SRH

You know nothing, JM

Stan, I like the evasive nature of most game birds. Like the instinct for survival that my game birds have and the evolution that has created those instinctive evasive tactics. But.....I don't want to hunt and kill animals that know who I am. That can develop a plan.

Just me and I'm not condemning those who do. To each their own.

They sure ain't waterfowl !

Just curious, James. What do you mean by "That can develop a plan"?

I apologize for being dense.

SRH

Stan, I don't think you are being dense. Crows know who you are, unless you hide your face. Crows can think steps ahead to get the right outcome. They aren't at our level, clearly, but they are way ahead of most other animals. They DECIDE what they are going to do, not just react to stimuli.

Crow in that video is smarter'n Jag.


____________________________
Salvation's final plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4_rP1Sr37g&feature=share

[quote=lonesome roads]Crow in that video is smarter'n Jag.


The Canadian called me idiot at least twice and on miss fires Keith posted that my IQ was less than 28. Thank you for the compliment.

My dad showed me the same trick stan did, except with a broom handle and a pellet gun. They are smarter than a duck, that's for sure.

Yup. I have called you an idiot. For good reason. You behave on this site like an idiot. You blurt out recommendations that have nothing to do with either personal experience or the point of this forum....double guns.

I spent several years here while practically saying nothing. I listened before I spoke. I still try to make sure my posts add something of value to any given thread. I don't post for the sheer joy of hearing my own voice. You should try it, JM. You might find people treat you differently.

Stan,
I wasn't impling you SHOULD eat the crows, heaven forbid, just as to whether you had actually done it. By the way, shrimp fall into the same catagory, "bottom feeders" and I eat every one I can.
I've never eaten crow, literally, anyway. Lots of figuratively, I guess. Part of the aging process.
The receipe I have is from the Field and Stream guide to Sportsman's Cooking, a little paperback, written by one George Laycock in 1967. I doubt, seriously, it is needed, but, if anyone wants the crow receipe, and the tidbit about removing the crow's oil gland, to prepare for cooking, drop me a PM and I'll get it to you.

PJ,
You have an opinion on most of the topics presented, here. Good. But, Canvasback has given you extremely sage, if blunt, advice. To a very large degree, nobody here (save, perhaps, LeFusil, myself, and maybe Recoil Rob) care about your feelings pertaining to an Ithaca 37, and, I am reducing those guns in my collection. Some of these guys won't pick one up to look at it. They have their own opinions on the doubles that come up for discussion here, based on their ownership and using of same.
Your opinion won't often be the same as most of the older gents, here. There is much to learn on the topic. This is a good place to learn.


Best,
Ted

Ok, I will give up on discussing repeating shotguns. I understand there are places like: ShotgunWorld, Upland Journal,....for discussing them. This is Double Gun BBS.

I was one of the fence-sitters referenced above, citing both 12 and 16ga. and have been mulling over my final choice. Honestly I prefer 16 for quail and grouse, but need 12 for pheasant. I do enjoy a weeklong pheasant hunt each year and with that in mind, IF you restricted me to one gauge, I would pick the 12 even though 90% of my hunting is grouse hunting. I can adjust the load of the 12 to the game as others have pointed out, but I wouldn't be too happy about it. The tipping point in my analysis is the existence of my light 12 A&D boxlock. It is by far the most versatile gun in my small arsenal. I can use it on grouse and pheasants alike and it carries very nicely.

Does anyone else have a single gun that tips the balance to their preferred gauge?

Owen. I do. My preferred gauge is 12. I have one gun i will never sell and it is a 12. Most of my guns are 12 gauge and I have the most confidence in the 12 because, whether targets or game, the 12 does everything I want. I broke 24 at trap with my 20 gauge SxS the only time I used it for that, but in the end I have always shot a 12 and shot it more than a 20 or 16. I am 64, have arthritis in my shoulders and neck and , thank God, i can still carry my 7 and a half pound 12 ga all I need to. I don't know why but having that one 12 gauge gun just seems comfortable.

To me, there is no best shotgun guage. There are only most memorable experiences and best days (to-date):
- my first dove on the wing I powdered with a .410;
- perhaps my longest kill was with a 16, a sharptail paced off at 62;
- my highest pheasant ever, a late season ND bird coming off a ridge a friend was pushing, with a 12 ga.;
- my first limit of chukar in Idaho, with a 28;
- and the gauge I shoot the most, a 20, has dropped sand grouse and guinea fowl in Africa, and huns and huns, and more huns (along with honkers, and everything in-between).

GG

I agree there is no best gauge, but there are preferences. The question asked was not best, but "favorite"

Nearly every great hunting memory I have is with a 16.

My favorite remains 16 for everything, though I do own a 24, a 12, and two 20's, the core of my collection is comprised of six 16ga guns. I don't count i herited family guns.

Hunting gun preferences are in my experience linked to particular guns more than gauges, though gauges play a part. Sometimes by luck or chance you get the right gun that fits and hits and the habit and like grows.

The two best guns for me are similarly balanced, weigh within an ounce, and barrels are within an inch. Both are 16ga. Out of habit I have stayed with 16 from when I was a kid hunting my Father's German guild gun, though my Fox Sterlingworth, my Browning 16 O/U, to my Louis Christophe and lastly a beat-up Purdey project gun.

There are one or two purchases ileft in my future and they will more than likely be 16's.

I make no claim that 16 is uniquely superior, in fact while ballisticly sufficent for the uplands, and for me just right at 6lbs and a few ounces plus or minus, feeding the beast is a pain. If you shoot 16 alot, you will probably become a reloader.

Through habit, the feel of a well balanced 6ib gun feels just right to me. If I had brought a good english 12 SLE in 1985 whem I had the chance I might be favoring a 12 gauge 6 1/2 pound gun.

Everyone has their own predilections and preferences, mine is 16.

Most of my "best" guns are 16's. For more than 30 years I have loaded and collected 16ga tools, components, and ammo. At this point I am over committed and will not change.

I couldn't agree more.

The first game bird I ever killed (a wild ringneck pheasant) was killed with a 16 gauge Stevens Springfield sxs. To this day, the 16 gauge remains my favorite upland gauge, with the current favorite an Arietta Model 578 I picked up used a few years ago. Just perfect for most upland tasks.

I still have that Stevens, by the way. It was my father's and he gave it to me when he stopped hunting. Only shotgun he ever owned. I treasure it and his Winchester Model 94 .30-30 above all the other guns in my vault.

I'm a 12 gauge shooter though I grew up on the ranch shooting a Remington Model 17 pump 20 gauge. However, over the past decade I've dipped my toe into the water of 16 gauges and really liked the temperature. This past four month quail season I think I shot a 16 on all my frequent hunts except maybe one or two. And though I have some darned nice 16's it seems the one I grab and go with is a lowly beat up Lefever DS 16 with 26" barrels. There is just something magical about it. Can't explain but more often than not when it goes "bang" a bird drops. And its so darned nice to carry. And I don't have to worry about scratches!

My safe holds 16's and 12's. No other gauges. If I had my druthers, all the guns would be 16's, but.....

There are a good number of 12's that just call out to me, for one reason or another. Truth be told, I have favorite guns, not a favorite gauge.

I hunt ruffs more than anything and for that my 28 gauge is perfect, but, I gotta have my 12 for pheasant, especially late season. I suppose if I were forced to own one gauge, it would be a light weight 16.

Canvasback,
I realized after you mentioned favorite guns, that is what draws me to the special ones and not their gauges. I've never owned a 16, perhaps because people steered me away from them when I was starting out long ago because of ammo and the like. I've read numerous times about it's suitablility as an upland gauge, and it's barrels being the perfect diameter to fit in one's hand, overall weight, shot load, etc. Now that RST has me covered for shells for any bird that I might persue, I really owe it to myself to have at least one.
Karl

You better treat yourself to a 16 bore Karl. The RST 16 ga 1oz loads are great for game. RST's are fairly high priced in general......doesn't make that much difference in terms of cost with RST 12's, 20's or 16's. Pretty close in price. They are very nice shells though. The 16 ga papers are super sweet, soft on recoil yet kill game very well in my humble opinion.

I totally agree with the recent comments made/echoed. I have no use for anything but 12's and 16's. I have a 28 for my wife/daughter, but personally can't justify anything below 16 when I can get a 16 as light as I ever would want a game gun (6-6.25 lbs) and have more pellets than a 20, 28, 410, plus better ballistics. And the 16 fits so perfectly in the hand, especially in a properly scaled, rounded action. Ammo is not an issue. I will average 1.5 cases utilized while hunting in a given year, so neither cost nor availability are an issue. I highly recommend everyone try the 16!

Buzz,
I agree regarding the RST loads, as I use their paper loads in 12 and 20 gauge. What has really kept me from a 16 is that I like to shoot my guns for sporting clays to help me hone them and myself for hunting. That's where the ammo could get expensive as I only use the RSTs for bird hunting and use Estates for clays. But as I've always said, "Life is short-write the check"!
Karl

Regarding the cost of ammunition for hunting.

When I add up what I have spent on guns, gear, clothing, travel, accommodations, dogs and my hunting property, the annual cost of even Kent TM is a relatively small proportion of my expenditures. In Canada, for older doubles, the only problem in the past has been availability of suitable loads, not their cost.

Mr Owen, having owned a 6 pound 5 ounce 28" barrelled A&N boxlock from Webley in 12 gauge, I'm in full agreement. My 12 gauge round action Ideal 6REE weighs 6 pounds, 9 ounces if I remember correctly and it feels as good in my hands as any 16 gauge I've owned or used. And it's barrels will handle anything and more than my shoulder can.

I love a 16 and the deals on herters shells

For me, a Stevens SxS 16ga was the shotgun I killed my first bird as a youngster. It belonged to my grandfather, although he did not hunt much by then. That gauge and barrel arrangement has held a very soft spot in my heart. My safe has a number of 12s and a couple 20s, but I find myself keep looking for that next magical 16ga. As a matter of fact, both of the 20ga shotguns I have, I got them through auctions in which they were advertised as 16ga shotguns. Imagine my surprise when I found the bores had shrunk form to 16 to 20 when I got them...

Ted, Stan, I offer the following recipe for Crow.

Fill a large pot with mountain spring water.
Clean and quarter Crow and add to pot.
Add root vegetables, whole garlic, a bay leaf and salt and pepper.
Place a large river stone in the center of the pot and bring to boil.
When the stone is fork tender, crow is ready to eat

Thanks, Bob. I'll let Ted try it first. I'll supply the crow, well tenderized with #6s.

SRH

It's just as good as dove

I'll take your word for it, 'cause I'll never know as long as there are doves to be shot.

I had an acquaintance once who claimed to have eaten a baked owl. I asked, "How does an owl eat?". He replied, "Most like a hawk". (You may not understand the meanings if you've never heard much Southern vernacular)

SRH

Good one Stan!

I'll be a lot hungrier than I am before I cook a plate of crows to eat. Not saying it couldn't happen, God forbid, but, it hasn't happened yet.


Best,
Ted

My favorite and almost only gauge shotgun- whether L. C. Smith or Model 12- always and ever- 12 gauge- worked for Nash Buckingham and Paul Curtis-works well for me also. Can get shells anywhere in the world in that old std. gauge- try that with the "bastard gauges"!!

I think, what is favorite to someone is very subjective. Favorite does not mean practical necessarily.Having said that, I respect everyone's replies. BillK

I have yet to find a place that sells 12 ga. shells that doesn't sell 20s. And, lest you be laboring under a misconception, Mistah Nash owned, and thought highly of a 20 for quail.

SRH

Same here RWTF, since I'm pretty much given up on upland game hunting and went to waterfowl, strictly geese, that's all I use anymore is a 12 gauge Model 12 that I bought recently. The few times I go out for upland game at the very most twice a season I'll take the Model 12. I'm down to my last couple boxes of RST 16 gauge Nice Shot and I won't buy anymore for my 16 gauge Nitro Special. So I'll just put it away.