Myself and some other dealers have come to the conclusion that there are a group of people (a couple on this BBS that we know of. Even though we dealers are competitors, we still are friends, we know who calls all around on making inquiries, but not buy) that they are professional lookers. They email you about a gun, generally the email is this: I am very interested in that gun, do you still have it?

You reply that you do, and that's all you ever hear from them. Nothing.


I have made mention this scenario to my wife, hoping she could explain this.

Her reply was this: They like to ask about guns so they can tell their friends that they are looking at this gun from this dealer and checking about this other one from this other dealer, and maybe interested in this other gun that they saw and so on and so on.
This of course this is impressive to their friends and makes them feel that they are in the game. But they never do anything more that look.

John Boyd

Judging from the present balance in my 'gun money account', I am considering joining the Professional Lookers Association myself. Is there a national headquarters?...Geo

I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't similar for actual sales. Some may need a whole bunch more time invested than others. It's probably just part of doing business. Bar talk with the buddies feels better, but it probably can't do a whole lot to decrease the tire kickers.

Well....I gotta say...if the most you have to outlay is a 'yes I do' then you're getting off pretty lucky.

Yes, George I understand there is a chapter. Not sure how to join. I understand it's more of a national chapter, not local.


John

Times are so rough that if you guys were to ever enact a "just lookin" fee, I'd have no choice other than to forfeit my membership in the "Professional Lookers" club. Although I'm careful never to harass a seller with emails and calls unless I truly do intend to be a buyer, I really appreciate those website listings that do allow folks like to be a "looker".

I hear your frustration John.
When I go fishing, I am also frustrated when I do not catch every fish that chooses to strike.

FWIW, a peddler only has so much time. And, many other duties beyond glad handing tire kickers. The traditional approach is to ask poignant, clarifying questions, so as to determine if the prospect (having been transformed from "lead" by virtue of their having actually contacted you) is comfortable buying soon.
If they cannot say yes to any of the qualifiers, you have your answer. For today. Maybe not for tomorrow or next week.

All that said, people that have long term successful businesses have to invest in creating future customers. When dealers K-mart their wares (ie the many on GB) they are only interested in transactions, and create no longer term value.

So, when qualifying, be careful to not be off putting. Allow for a conduit to future business. A way out without losing face. Keep a "desires list", and when those items become available, get on your e-mail lists.
It's the cultivation that takes all the time.

I do not expect to land every fish. I expect a strong ratio of strikes/hook sets.

B i t c h, b i t c h, b i t c h...
JR

My wife says that she enjoys shopping,
buying, not so much

She is quite frugal and enjoys finding the things on sale
and sometime she buys.

Mike

Have the Spanish makers from the top Spanish houses priced themselves off the market. Or have the Spanish gunmakers abandoned the low end market to the Turks a little too early?

Millions of "lookers" walk through stores everyday and some buy something and probably most don't. Same as online.

Not everyone will be a buyer......

Maybe should be called "professional non doers club"

John

Tell you what, John. Go back to doing business totally by word of mouth, walk-ins, and by hard copy advertising, as in pre-Internet days, and your problems will likely go away. Then again, so will most of your business, if you're like most other internet advertising dealers I know of.

It's a cost of doing business worldwide. Get used to it.

SRH

Lots of real good photos, real good descriptions of condition, flaws, measurements, will eliminate or attract . So many advertisers take crappy photos, no measurements, and scant descriptions. Good information in adds will eliminate much of John's exasperation.

John is not exasperated because customers are complaining about his descriptions, photos or details. John is exasperated because some guy(s) who likely cannot afford a really nice gun, but get a thrill out of imagining they one day might be able to, email him and ask him if he has the gun in question. Not because they call him and aggravate him when he is busy, but because they thoughtfully email him so that he can answer at his convenience.

Your little vent may just backfire on you, John. Or maybe I am the only one who would be reticent, now, to email you concerning one of your guns.

SRH

Not complaining about window shopping
As I mentioned
I am talking about the guys who contact you by internet has all kinds of questions , acts like he is interested and you ever hear from them again
I reconize several who do this on a regular basis
Some of us dealers compare notes and they do this with them.


John

The problem with virtual retail is the time it takes to communicate.
Might be better to create scripted videos covering all the info needed for a typical sale.

But that would be work.

When we had spec houses the same people would go through different houses and put on their little fake buyer act. Little did they know we owned more than a couple. Ask the right questions right away, and save yourself the grief.

I spent many years in retail, and I learned long ago that lookers sometimes turn into buyers. If there was a way to tell who or when you wouldn't have to put up with it; problem is, there is no way to know. It only took me one missed sale to learn that lesson; after that, I welcomed lookers with open arms.

I've read results of research when they put sensors on shoppers' heads to measure the agitation in the 'fun zone' of the brain, in order to see if shopping was indeed fun. It turned out that the moment of ultimate satisfaction was the moment of making the decision to buy. What's more,people who decide to buy but changed their minds have MORE fun out of shopping than people who go ahead with the purchase, because they don't feel the guit and remorse about spending too much money!

The old Britcom Fawlty Towers's character portrayed by John Cleese owned a hotel on the coast of England. His main complaint was that the guests interfered with his ability to run the hotel. Variations of this theme cross many vocations.

The problem is most dealers can't be trusted to list an accurate description...then there are some dealers that don't have the eYe to even see an accurate description.

I've often heard teachers comment that it'd be a great job if it weren't for the students. Might have said that myself, a time or two.

This gets a "Like" from me.

Top ten Fawlty Towers moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcEws7il4EY

Arrieta2,

While I sympathize with the frustrations of any man who's trying to make a living, I will say that working through "non-buyer shoppers" issues in the high end gun market, while obviously real, are easier than in other areas. Consider the real estate guy who has to personally ferry people around, spending lots of time (and even money). Or the Ferrari dealer who not only has to gauge the "buyer's" financial state, but also has to let him TRY OUT his product!

In my business I hate going through periods of interest with no traction, but it's the nature of sales. And I gird myself by thinking of how much harder those other kinds of sales are.

The economy is going nowhere but down, and will continue to do so until we flush the toilet of 5 decades worth of fake, Fed-induced cheap money "prosperity." And ALL boats drop when the tide rolls out.

It's the nature of sales. I suspect John may love guns and has found a way to make his living in that arena, but likely doesn't really like sales. At least not retail sales.

I have spent 34 years selling to retailers. While I've been in sales, it was easy to qualify my customers.....they had a store and were in business. However, I got to spend plenty of time watching good retailers work with their customers. Not a job I'd want but watching them work was amazing.

For the very best, as judged by the overall success of their stores over many years, no person was unworthy of their time and attention as they intuitively knew it is impossible to know when that person will come back and buy or what that person may say to someone else.

Yes, my experience with professional shoppers, one thing stands out, "if they talk a lot, they buy a little". The more questions someone asks, the more likely they are just lonely or bored and are not going to buy anything. I just love the buyer who emails.... "I'll take it" short , but sweet.

Rapidfire

Very good point James. I worked in a local gunshop some years ago and the proprietor treated everyone as though they might be a potential customer. We were chatting one night after the shop closed up and he recalled a story for me of a customer who came in wearing dirty overalls and no shirt. He mentioned the man was also quite dirty as though he had just finished work on a farm. The shop owner told me how even though the man did not look especially well off he bought several high end rifles with top notch glass on them. Not something you would expect. At the same time I have seen the very same shop owner tell tire kickers where to stick it. He would entertain real questions from potential customers all day long but had zero patience for the looky loos. Running a retail shop is not something I could do. I can certainly understand John's point.

Years ago I had a salesman "cold call" by phone selling ball point pens. He went on and on and I listened to his spiel which involved a lot of fast talking with a Bronx accent. He was good. After concluding, he asked "how many you want?" I told him "none." He chewed my ass out for wasting his time and all I could do was laugh and hang up.
As for not liking "sales", everything one does on a daily basis involves "sales" one way or another if it involves dealing with other people. Gil

I suppose I am one of the guilty ones. I have been calling around looking and pricing a Spanish 20 bore with long 29" or 30" barrels.
I have owned a lot of Spanish guns in the past and know all to well that the depreciation value is great on them and that is why I am still looking.
So sorry guys if I have upset anyone.

Good for you Mike, but in my opinion don't worry about it. Could be the purpose here wasn't for sales or business advise, but to send a message to folks on some list.

I have a friend who is very knowledgeable about double guns, and since his wife won't let him buy one more often than about every five years he has adopted the strategy of looking only for specimens that are so rare, nearly non-existant, that he never finds one. He is always asking me to keep my eyes open for an British 16 ga. with original 70mm chambers, 31 inch nitro-proved damascus barrels with quarter and half original configuration choke. Must have nicely figured french walnut at or under 6 lbs., regularly serviced but no evidence of the screws having been turned.

Many years ago, my then-wife accepted a sales presentation offer typically common around military bases. We had to watch a presentation in order to receive some minor prize. Since I was newly married and hadn't realized yet how poor my judgement was in spouse selection, I consented to go.

It was a typical scam where they try to sell you around $100 of photo-finishing for around $1200. The attempted "hook" was that anyone could take "professional" quality pictures, it was only the finishing that mattered. As a one-time freelance photographer, I saw the scam immediately. Needless to say, I wouldn't "Bite". The pitches got progressively more intense, ending with the classic "Ben Franklin" close. This was all accompanied by beseeching looks from my wife making it clear she thought we'd be passing up on the deal of a lifetime. I said "No".

When they gave us our trinket, I pointed out the fact that they were trying to sell $100 of photo finishing for $1200. They were not happy with my observation.

I guess that qualifies me as a "Looker"...

There's lots of folks out there trying to sell $600 worth of gun for $2500. I'm generally talking about lower condition pieces, and I'm not addressing this to anyone in particular. Certainly not to high condition sellers here. When it's pointed out about the low condition guns, dealers are not usually happy about that either. It's just an experience driven observation.

Case in point; I was in a guitar shop many years ago when a fellow in dirty clothes and pretty disheveled looking came in and started looking at a particularly nice and rather expensive Gibson acoustic. The guy didn't really play very well, and after quite a while the clerk said, "Why don't you take that with you?" "Think I will," he said, and pulled out a wad of bills from his shirt pocket. He paid cash and walked out the door with it.

I can easily understand the frustration with the time it takes to answer questions for the many unlikely buyers.

Daryl is dead on correct that many questions people ask are the result of poor descriptions and incomplete photos. It amazes me how often even top end sellers fail to give the details of a gun on the most basic level (i.e. weight, chamber length, choke dimensions, min wall thickness) While I understand it takes time to have all the details laid out it would reduce questions.

Further on photos, simple depiction of barrel and receiver flats as well as other details would make life much easier for all involved.

At minimum the following should be available in a high end gun description.

Maker
Serial Number (you can blank the last two digits, but it is very useful to know on some makes)
Chamber length (current and original and if lengthened whether reproofed)
Triggers (Single<selective or not><type of single if known> , Double, Front Articulated)
Ejectors/Extractor (if ejector if type of ejector is known i.e. southgate, baker etc)
Safety (automatic or not)
Barrel Length (and if original-photo of muzzles ends most questions)
Current Bore Diameter
Current Choke Dimensions (note if different from stamped markings)
Minimum Wall Thickness Right and Left
Barrel Weight (for Belgian guns so marked original versus current tells a lot)
Balance point in Relation to Hinge pin
Type of Grip (amazingly photos often are so bad you can't tell)
Type of forend and forend release
Actual stock dimension to include cast and pitch
LOP to wood on guns with pads
Actual Weight of gun (I have discovered the average gun I have brought weighs 1 or 2 ounces above advertised and that is on a calibrated postal scale)
Date of Manufacture if known
Engraver name if known (signed)
Original finish if actually known (I never cease to be amazed how many guns are stated original that obviously are not)

Complete terms of the sale and return policy as well as terms of payment or possible layaway

I realize this is a big list but it will cure most questions and leave few additional questions.

One more thought on window shopping vs. buying guns, I do feel guilty when asking questions on a gun I know it is unlikely I will buy. That said unlikely is not impossible and on at least two occasions I came back after not buying either gun, buying them a year or more later when they got listed again (Christophe Double Rifle, Christophe 20ga SxS)

Window shopping guns is another form of hunting, I drive by a lot of country before I get out of my truck.

Dash it Grouse Guy, I just recently sold something close to what you were looking for; a 16 bore English gun with 70mm. chambers but this one had 30 inch steel barrels.

I keep a separate gun and fishing rod buying account that is separate to the household account. At the moment it is quite low, due to recent purchases, but will build again. I contacted the importer of Chapuis guns to see if they can supply a straight hand stocked over/under with double triggers in 12 bore. I did point out in the e-mail that I would not be in a position to buy until later this year or early next year. I do intend to go ahead as they can supply what I want. A 'looker' at that stage but a purchaser in the near future. I stated my case and the reply was polite and that is why I will do business. Contrast that with a gun shop in the south west of England when I went in in a rare flush with cash moment and in a position to buy something interesting. The gist of the reply to my question was that I could not afford what he had on offer. I deal in cash for guns so just showed him what I had on me and walked out. He lost a customer. I was on holiday at the time and dressed fairly casual. Maybe he learned something from that. I like to think so. I've never been back to find out. Lagopus.....

Back in the 60's my father had a cousin who would hitch hike across the country. He looked like a bum most of the time. One day on one of his journeys he walked into a Caddy dealer in GA. Seems he was dressed in Levi's, torn t-shirt and Converses. Not a dime on him. Owner of the dealership walked up to him and offered him two bucks for food. He asked how much for the convertible caddy? Given the price asked if he would take a check. No Id, no check on him even.

Sorry I'd like to but you need to see a banker for that much money. To humor him the dealer said see if the bank across the street could help him. Over to the bank he went. There he asked the bank to call his bank collect and see if they would ok a check for the car? On faith they called collect, gave the bank his name and the bank took the call. The manager ask them to describe him. Told in hushed tone he looked like a bum, Levi's, t-shirt, tennis shoes, no socks and no hat. The manager told them he was good for any check up to 250k and the description was a match. The GA bank cashed a blank check for him and he went back to the caddy dealer and bought the car. Half an hour later he was back in the bank to cash a second check for fifty dollars for gas money. As a small boy I saw that car for years until he gave it to a busty blond who left him and kept the car.

Sometimes looker turn into buyers but so rare that most hear about then for decades. Problem is that a looker with money is going to spend very quickly once he makes up his mind. You got to be I the right place at the right time or all you'll ever see are lookers.

What Jon describes is called the "Frayed collar and cuff" crowd around here. Scions of lumber barons, and automobile dynasties. Young people, born retired, and wanting to fit in.
It's why I preach clarifying questions. They do no harm, they help to get a dialogue going, and you can find out relative warmness to purchase.
You won't know it's one of the Ford family until someone mentions my "Uncle Bill".
It should never be a bother to be polite to a potential customer. How about, "Tell me about your sporting life. What's been your best experience so far?"

As they say, "People love to buy, they hate to be sold."

Here's an example that happened just today. A friend is looking for a Vintage double for me to restore for him. I found one. I called the seller yesterday and asked all the usual questions, especially about potential faults, both the one's visible in the pictures, as well as the one's alluded to in the description. Then I asked about the non-visible or non-described ones. I walked the guy on the phone through the "Off Face/Loose" check, and he assured me that the action was fairly tight, with only a tiny bit of play. So far, so good. Today, my friend called and got a different guy on the phone. It appears that in reality the barrels in fact rattle when the gun is shaken. I doubt the guy I was talking to even took the gun off the rack, let alone removed the forend. Bottom line is we're still looking for a restoration piece. This was not a small seller. It was a storefront gun dealer.

John:
You will remember a gentleman whose initials were HS. He was my hunting,
fishing and shotgun mentor for many years. For about 20 years we had a couple of tables at the Houston Gun Collectors Association shows. This was before the majority of items on display were handguns and strategic rifles. His wares were always in good condition and reasonably priced. You in fact bought some doubles from him. And he from you. He had a good number of Spanish guns and Berettas. We took one particular high grade AYA to those show for years. There was one looker who stopped by our table at least once a show, often two or three times, to admire the gun, always wandering off saying he would be back.
After about 5 years of this HS scratched through the price on the hang tag and raised it 25%, when he saw our looker walking down the aisle. The chap noted that the gun had been priced lower since he first looked at it 5 years before. HS told him that he discovered the gun had been priced in error. The looker pulled out a wad of cash and bought the AYA. People are strange.

I believe I'm guilty of having asked John a question or two a few years ago. I'm generally not the type to communicate with dealers until I have a real interest in purchasing a gun of the type I ask about. For me, asking about a gun means it's a candidate for purchase. I have not bought from John yet.

John, I trust my type is still on good terms with you and this thread is just passing time and shakin the bush?

interesting topic...but it belongs down below...

Not at all. One of the more interesting discussions in quite some time.
JR

"Interesting topic....but it belongs down below"

That's rich....coming from the shyster whose almost daily posts and comments all belong in the deleted recycle bin.

Bought and traded a few with John and he's a true gentleman to do business with.

I bought a Browning Superposed 20 ga from John 7-8 yrs ago. It was a really nice gun. I may have discussed 1 other gun with him at some point, not sure, but I've only purchased the one gun. I hope I'm not a tire kicker. He has nice things.

I only look at what I want and can afford to buy. From a buyers perspective I could complain about dealers, but won't, 90% are nice guys.

Boats

OK, you gotta get your story straight. First you said they call and only ask if the gun is still available. Then later you said they 'ask a bunch of questions and act interested.'

Which is it?

In the automobile business we call them "tire kickers"

GregSY

That was a 2 part statement that I made.

They do two things. They email and say they are interested in the gun and is it still available. You reply yes it is and you never here from them again. Sometimes I wait a day or two and email them and ask if they want to do something on it. They don't answer.

Second part: They asked all kinds of questions and you never hear from they again. Some of these guy have become familiar to us dealers.

I have no problem if guys inquire and ask questions if they are really interested in the gun.

IE: I personally get various ad verts on very high end cars that they want me to buy, I guess. While I am able to buy them, and like reading about them, I have not intentions to buy one. So I do not call and ask a bunch of questions and waste someones time.

This is what I am speaking about


John Boyd

John, This is mainly a forum for customers. Customers venting about dealers and gunsmiths is OK. Dealers venting about customers , not so much.

As my late Dad used to say, "you've come to a goat house for wool".
JR

We suggest that if you are looking for something special, please contact us electronically, or call (as we may already have it available.) Quality Arms maintains a wish list of what our customers are looking for. If you have a special need please let us know, so we can contact you should we receive something that may be of special interest to you
http://arrieta.com

Send all your cards and letters directly requesting Johnny B…

Nothing better than a customer with good questions I always say.

My grandfather sold bird dogs to Robert Woodruff or "Mr. Bob" as he was known, Chairman and CEO of Coca Cola. He told me this story one day. Mr. Bob was in a nice Maryland gun store while on business for Coca Cola during WWII. He asked to see a very nice Model 21 and the manager said "ol timer I doubt you can afford that". Mr Woodruff said "maybe you're right", said Goodbye and left. As he was leaving a young clerk stopped him and said "come around later and I'll let you look at it, Sir" . The following month the Manager came in an there was Mr. Woodruff looking at the 21. He begin to dress down the clerk and Mr. Woodruff said "are you going to let him talk to you that way?" The clerk said "he's my boss" and Mr. Bob replied "no he's not, you run this store now, I bought it last night over dinner with the owner. He was such a gentleman he did not fire the Manager, but simply said to him "Young fella look's like there are shelves to be stocked better get started!" My grandfather said that illustrated an important lesson to learn. "It is the content of one's character that matters not the content of his wallet! Just thought this might be interesting.

H

I think it's a great story, and I like the outcome, but it seems more like a vindictive grudge than the high road. Hope the kid kept the new boss happy, probably was on pins and needles knowing how punitive ole Bob was.

Well, maybe guys who call with questions are interested, and will have more or less continuing interest depending on the answers to the questions? Maybe there's some comparison shopping going on too? I've not phoned a dealer with questions in a lot of years, but this isn't at all hard for me to understand. Is this so hard to accept as part of doing business?? Some calls might be just curiosity born of boredom. Kinda like whining to deal with boredom.

Jay

Craig: I can see your point, I just always thought it was indicative of the point that your position should always come from one's customer service to the customers not mindreading and assuming their worth. Guess it can be taken as one's outlook warrants. Remember he wasn't fired just reassigned.
I'll ponder it more.

H

Robert Woodruff was one of the greatest philanthropists of the 20th Century. His hallmark was old school anonymity. It was only after his death that the breadth of his generosity was known.

My old friend Bill Jaqua would tell me this- back when he was in downtown Findlay- bear the old courthouse- "I try to treat everyone who comes into my store with questions about guns as if they were the most important person I have talked too that day-- John- [censored] all you want about "lookers'- but be grateful that they are looking at your items- can't have it both ways in today's competitive gun market- look what happened to Herschel Chaddick- he drive away a lot of customers with his BS stories about the King Ranch customers(?) he had- BS--

What about this guy: They email and say they are interested in the gun and is it still available. You reply yes it is and answer their questions, you never here from them again. Sometimes I wait a day or two and email them and ask if they want to do something on it."They don't answer".

Should they "have the decency to at least reply"?

John Boyd

Yes, they should, however, without thick skin, retail is not a place you want to be. Sounds like your picking fly crap out of pepper.

I had a dealer just the other day not return an e-mail inquiry on an item I was interested in. Oh well his loss. I could go on all day about dealers, as I'm sure you could about customers, but I won't.

My point is, only a couple of choices for you. Suck it up as retail and move on, focus on it and stay frustrated, buy a little cheese to go with the whine or find something else to do in life.

Hope this helps.
Bill

Nice to hear from Steven Hughes:

Look what I found on his site:

(I Cannot Answer Gunsmithing Questions! by phone or email! Nor am I taking in any repair or restoration work at this time. Individual firearms evaluations from $125. ~ Please be respectful on my time and need to earn a living"".

Steven: I think this is what I am talking about too

John

I think absolutely. Why not just block the email address, and put a little note up that stuff gets gobbled up by your spam program. So, if you're serious, please try again using a different email.

You see it at gun shows. A chit chatty tire kicker takes up the sellers attention. I'll wait patiently. If the seller has a half way decent minute for me, I'll buy something I'm happy with in a very short time. If they get busy wiping down stuff and looking around for the kid that was supposed to get coffee, I just stroll on. There're so many options.

John,
You really are missing the point.
SDH is a craftsman who works with his hands. In a manufacturing environment, time is money and his quality sells its self. Where as a retailer or someone who flips guns, salesmanship is a good portion of what you are selling.

I visited your place of business about 13 or so years ago. You couldn't answer important questions on a used sxs that I was looking at, I had to make an appointment and you didn't seem at all interested in making a sale. I can't for the life of me tell you what gun I was specifically looking at, but I can vividly recall the feeling I was left with.

Not trying to be a jerk, just some constructive criticism. You have been lead to water by a number of folk in this thread, but its up to you to drink.

One other thing an old man told me one time..., "you shouldn't shit where you eat".

Bill

Bill:

As per you reply, time is money for anybody in sales. "People in sales are professional too.

I am sorry I do not remember you. Maybe the reason I did not answer your questions is that I did not know the answer.

John Boyd

Bill:

Maybe you are confused about this statement: you didn't seem at all interested in making a sale"".

I do not hard sell folks, and after 43 years of doing this, most like that approach. I give guys straight answers. I talked a customer out of an So Beretta that I have because after questioning him, I told him it was not the right gun for him.

John

What a shame. To proud/arrogant to get it.

I'm sure your "professional" salesmanship abilities have alienated a significant number of potential customers with this thread.

Pretty obvious from your responses throughout the thread why I never have been back. Wasn't off the mark then and I'm not now.

Good luck with your business.

I'm done.

What a hoot! I'm confused?
John, your making my point for me. You didn't have the answers, nor did you show an interest in finding an answer. I don't like hard sell, but professionals have basic answers for customers. OR THEY WOULD FIND AN ANSWER. Example: bore dia, chokes, wall thicknesses, drop, LOP etc.. I wouldn't expect the guys at Collectors to have that info, but they are willing to get it. Pretty basic stuff though for a doublegun "professional". Wouldn't you agree? Go ahead, break out the shovel again and dig that hole a bit deeper.

I wouldn't expect you to remember me. To many years ago and the gun was only 4k max (not a big dog) as that is all I could afford at the time. My business partner was with me and his observations were consistent with mine.

Oh, in my previous post, I used the word craftsman not professional.

To give an example, a couple weeks ago a local-to-me dealer had a number of guns on GB, a couple of which I was interested in. I emailed him asking (a) whether he would allow in-state buyers to pick up rather than go through shipping to their FFL 30 or 40 miles up the road and (b) a question or two about the gun I was interested in, seeking to clarify his description.
He got back to me with straight answers.

I did not bid on the gun, but that was a function of the bidding having gone over my budget by the time I signed in an hour or so before the auction ended.

Does that make me a "bad" potential customer?

I was favorably impressed with his forthrightness and responsiveness - and thanked him for it in a brief email replying to his response. And I would consider doing business with him if I saw something he listed that I liked.

Example 2. Every dealer who won't respond to an email, or won't provide as-clear-as-possible pictures of the bores.

I won't do business with them. I'm gratified for them that they have been so successful that they don't need my money.

I try to ask straight questions and like straight answers. I'd rather a guy say he doesn't know than try to bullshit me.

At a gun show, I will step back while looking at someone's wares if he has another customer come along. I like chatting with the sellers to learn about what they're selling. I also like seeing how they treat other customers - to see if it's different from how they treat me.

And if I see something I want/need and the price is right, I buy it.

---

BTW, and a bit OT - if you want to shut down a telemarketer and make him go away, ask him whether he's accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. Works.

Bill: I think you memory is bad. If you come to my office I have that info on the tags on the guns.

Some of you folks got what I am saying, and I appreciate it, others have not, so be it.


Thanks for the folks I have done business with on this site. You can see there feel that they have been treated right.

John

PS: Reminds me of a good friend of mine who passed way a couple of years ago. He was retired.

He was invited to various free financial seminars. The ones during the day provided lunch, the ones at night provided dinner. I said you are not going to do business with them, why do you go? He replied, free food!

John

And they continue to offer free food, without complaining about it, because it brings people through the door. They make no one feel unwelcome. And some of them buy.

Really, you don't seem to get it John.

Jay

Some of you may not do business with me in the future because of my comments, that's ok. I understand.

Some have responded that have done business with me and feel that I have nice guns and were treated fairly. I hoe to see them again.

I respect other people time and professionalism, I only ask for the same. Which I feel is fair. That was the original topic of this conversation


John

Thanks

John

Mr. Boyd, you do have a fine reputation on this forum. I have no idea why you would publicly criticize potential customers on this forum of all places. The doublegun market is small and a lot of it resides right here.

I expect that this unfortunate thread has run a course different from whatever you originally intended. I have already admitted that my gun fund is presently depleted, but hope that when I do call you with an interest in a gun you have for sale I will not be treated as a bother...Geo

Many of you have totally missed the point. I have no problem with customers. That's what is all about. The problem is with people who really have no intention to buy, just emailing for something to do. This does exist.

John

George:

I am sure that when you call me or another dealer, you have a definite interest in the gun, maybe not that gun after you speak to the seller, but you really were interested.

Thanks

John

+1

Can you imagine a classic car dealer criticizing potential customers, for asking such a simple question, on a public forum devoted to vintage cars? I can't. It's just amazing to me.

SRH

I am only asking for one thing, if a person contacts me I will do my best to be respectful of you and your time, I think its not too much for them to be respectful of me and my time.

If they or anyone here feels that this is not fair to both us, if they do not understand this and what I am only asking for is not to their likening we would probably be not a good fit for each other

Thanks

John

Thanks to those have been their for the last 43 years. Some believe I treat them well. Many have purchased multiple guns in that time period.

Business tip: Just leave it there John...Geo

Thanks George:

I will

Call anytime just to chat

Best

John

Reminds me of a Peter Gabriel song.... "Diggin in the dirt"

So, Lets say I am a semi knowledgeable guy when it come to Ithaca sxs's. I have an interest in purchasing my 1st English sxs. I have been ALL over the internet, looking and soaking up as much information as I can. Feeling fairly comfortable, it's time to head out and see what this feel thing is when it comes to English guns. I'm told you will understand when you handle the right one. Hey, Quality Arms is in Houston, He has a couple of English guns on his web site. I'm going to make an appointment and go on the next phase of my journey. I like buying local anyway. I head out for the hour long drive.

When I arrive, I ask to see X,Y and Z. I'd like to handle these Mr. Boyd. So I do my thing, and not being an impulse buyer, I say thanks and let me think about it.

Am I going to be the next turd that you and your buddy dealers sit around and talk crap about over your single malt scotch and cigars? Are you going to tell them "hey if this guy calls, he is going to come over and waste your time"? What are the guys in the middle that are not your "whale" suppose to do? Get our understand of English gun feel somewhere else, and buy from you? Just don't waste your time learning? Do you need to make a purchase to be on the good to go list?

Back to school my friend, its called sales 101.

You don't even understand that if after my first post, you had said, well Bill, I'm sorry you got a bad impression come on over and look around. We can talk and I'll show you what I have to offer. BUT, this isn't about me, its about your condescending, sitting above all of us attitude proclaiming that your time is worth more than anyone else's.

After seeing your replies to the people on this thread, I'd sell all my shit and stop hunting before buying the right time of day from you.

Good luck with your business. Its sad to think what it could have been as opposed to what it is.

I don't think John ever mentioned walk-ins Bill.

My understanding is he's disappointed in eternal tire kickers wasting everyone's time. Over the transom.

I gotta say, and I don't care if people get mad or not, but a $300.00 trade-in shotgun isn't worth my whole afternoon. And I'm not even in the gun business.

Be respectful of the peddlers time.

FWIW, it's been my experience that the person haggling until there's blood on the floor isn't going to buy again anyway. Some sales aren't worth the grief.

I can think of at least two internet personalities that have spent 10's of thousands on shotguns, and still have absolutely no confidence in their ability to vet a firearm. I don't even know them, and I'm already tired of them as soon as they start a thread somewhere. They probably call John~!
Though I'm pretty sure they'd only would get dial tone at Woodcock Hill!

Interesting reference. I happen to know a wealthy banker that was interested in Blands, so he called'em. After a very condescending exchange he decided to look elsewhere. Forever.

I think I hear sirens.
Someone must have called for a "Wha-mbulance"

In my line of work, we submit formal proposals for very expensive industrial equipment. Even a fast bid might cost a few thousand dollars to generate.

This is 'part of doing business' because we understand no one buys a multi-million dollar piece of equipment without due consideration. At least not usually.

That said, we also have 'tire kickers' - companies who you come to realize have asked for bids for 5, 10, 15 years and never bought anything.

There's a sort of natural process of selection when it comes to this sort of situation. Their requests tend to get shuffled to the bottom of the heap. They might not ever get a bid at all if things are busy. Their prices tend to be not carefully scrubbed.

In those cases, I simply remind the less experienced people I work with that the term 'customer' is used for people who buy things, or at least might.

GregSY we have customers that act like our estimator works for them! As we say, No pay, no stay. Some "customers" we just can't afford.
Had a husband and wife team that would demand 10's of thousands of dollars in changes to a spec house! I'd let their offer set for about 23 hrs, and then just say "No" in big letters on it. They wrote a half dozen PA's before we caught on to their angle. No one ever closed them to my knowledge. It was just their way to see what they could get a builder to agree to. They wanted it all for nothing.

It was that kind of stuff that makes me sympathetic to what John said at the beginning.

Crap, or get off the pot.

Better than the Amberlamps.
Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/0h9zJtYyjKE

I would have appreciated the favor of a return call some 10 or 12 years ago when a new found friend had just introduced me to the magical world of sxs's. I called the gentleman in Houston to see if he had an Arrieta in 16 gauge. He was busy, said he would call me back, and never did. Within the week I had a cased two barrel set on the way from a responsive dealer in the Carolinas.

I was a serious buyer that went elsewhere. I was very reluctant to post this, but I was gonna burst if I didn't.

Mike
Flower Mound, TX

He probably thought you were one of his pesky "Professional Lookers". He thinks he's got this thing all figured out. Looks like he was wrong in your case, Mike.

I stand by what I said earlier about his rant backfiring on him.

SRH

I've discussed a gun with John Boyd. He was absolutely truthful and receptive to my questions in reference to the gun. I did not find him to be put off by any of my questions, which were thorough and extensive. I purchased this particular gun from John, at a fair price and the item was as described. I was an interested party and not a tire kicker and I was treated well by John. Frankly, I don't blame him for being put off by the tire kicker customer. I'm not a gun dealer, but have sold a few guns along the way. I've had people approach me regarding some of my guns. A friend of mine was interested in a pigeon grade 101 I own. He asked me if I would sell it to him for 'what I had in it'. I thought about it and said yes, because he's my buddy. Then, he wanted to shoot it. Mind you, this is a 99% Win 101 pigeon. I let him shoot it and he shot it great. Then, he said, well I will think about it. I'm not sure I want to spend $1000 for a brand new Win 101 pigeon grade trap. It does kick a bit. So, he handed it back to me to take home and clean......and yeah, I know what John means. My tire kucking buddy sort of pissed me off and affirmed my belief that no good deed deserves to go unpunished.

Years ago I was looking for a superposed. I went to a local gun show and I found one and looked it over, the dealer was very nice and didn not hesitate to let me look at it. I passed on that gun and went over a few isles and found a nicer one a little cheaper. When I asked to see it the dealer kind of looked me up and down and hesitated thinking this young kid(I was in my 20's) did not fit his idea of a superposed buyer. I passed right on the spot and went back and bought the other gun. First thing I did was walk back the the other dealer and point out the gun I bought and that he should have looked at a potential buyer differently. For years later he remembered me and was quick to show me anything. I like to believe he learned something that day. Don't judge a book by its cover!!!!

I've had the same thing happen at a local shop that deals in high end Beretta's and other fine guns . Several times I been in there looking to buy(with money in pocket) and the owner always talks down to me. Never will probably buy anything from him because of his attitude towards me but I sure do make a point ask a lot of questions and handle everything just to annoy him!!!! He caters to rich folks and has no idea I have way more gun knowlage than he could ever think of having. He only knows the little world of guns he deals in. I have to bite my tongue when all the guys I shoot skeet with recommend him to another shooter or talk about buying something from him. To me he will always be an arrogant/phony person.

This is a very interesting thread and many fine points brought out. But my first question is what is a 'professional tire kicker' and in that regard how many of them are there in the context of all the other potential buyers? I think quite slim.

I don't think I am a professional tire kicker however I am very ignorant of all the possible sxs that I might be interested in. I watch and look constantly at many sites and do ask questions. It is a valid way of becoming more educated about sxs and what may interest me. I do buy and buy frequently but if the dealer is not interested in answering my questions I certainly go elsewhere. There are many, many guns but from what I ascertain from years on this site there are not a lot of buyers. Best to treat each one as a potential buyer for they will buy at some point and I would want that sale!

From a personal position my retirement is based on retail properties and renting them out. Times are slow right now and I've had to decrease my rents by 15 - 20%. I still get many people who think I am asking too much. I do get a lot of these people through the door to see the properties. Each viewing costs me $25 and I look at each one as the one who is gong to take the lease. What if I had the attitude John has? I might not be able to retire as I expect.

My brother in law is filthy rich. He has several ranches...went in to inquire on a new John Deere tractor for using around one of the ranches. He was wearing khaki shorts and a t shirt with a college name on it. He said he asked a few questions and the 'salesman' couldn't bring himself to even take his boots off his desk while he answered them. When he pulled out his checkbook and asked 'who do I make this out to?' for an $80,000 tractor he suddenly got a lot more attention....

I've just had an experience with a maker of fine modern rifles, one of which I happened to purchase before I'd had any experience with the shop.

I like the gun a lot, but after two conversations asking for basic repair service (ok, the bolt handle just fell off) where I was polite, neutral, and anything but demanding, I've concluded the maker is an absolute jerk. His first instincts were to be really nasty when there was no call for it, and I hadn't prompted it. As a result, this is the last NULA I'll ever buy.

I can sympathize with both John and his tire kickers. But I also see the points of those calling for better online gun descriptions if sellers don't want to entertain a lot of niggly questions from buyers or inquirers. I've decribed my friend who is much more a shopper than a buyer. But many of us already have enough variety of guns that if we are to buy any more, they really need to be something special and unique to us. That takes a lot of questions.

Best to all in their transactions,

GG

It seems to me that the replies to John's little vent has taken a wrong turn. I have no reason to believe that John is not a knowledgeable and honest gun dealer. I also don't blame him for being"put off" by the type of potential customers he described. Where I think John went wrong was in venting his displeasure. I worked in retail as a youngster and a young man, in my Dad's store, so I am not totally out of touch with reality. I know how irritating some customers can be. My Dad did, too, but taught me to keep it to myself and do all possible to have the customer leave happy. If I had done anything to alienate potential customers he would have dressed me down, and rightly so.

Being put off and irritated about jerks who question him is one thing ............... ranting about it to his customer base is another, and a big error in judgement, IMO. Best wishes, John, I sincerely mean that.

SRH

My late father-in-law had a tough time with some clients. He was complaining about them to his dad with whom he worked. "Jim, if you can't do business with the sonsabitches just who are you going to be doing business with?"

I hear you Stan, but a couple things to note. Firstly, I don't think the members of this forum are John's entire customer base. When I purchased a gun from him, I wasn't even a member of this illustrious forum. Secondly, in a deal like this, we will never find that 100% of the pop'l will agree. Many people here likely don't like what John had to say, some of which are tire kickers themselves. Others do agree with John. This forum is diverse and there are members here who like to argue and disagree just for the sake of being argumentative. For example, if I were to say 'Boy, it's a beautiful day, not a cloud in the sky and I really like that', others would say, 'yeah, but I wish there were some white puffies, cumulus clouds they are prettier' and another would say, 'you dumbass, it's getting ready to storm, there's a tornado coming and I like shitty weather'. Catch my drift, John was just giving us a taste of what he has to go through with all the bullshit that goes along with any job. I for one will buy from John again, esp if he has a rare gun i can't get elsewhere and so would you. This venting, I dare to say, has hurt John naught.

Doublegun is where we talk about what we do and how we feel about what we do, as we do in every other place: over the fence with a neighbour, at the Legion or service club, at dinner or in a blind.

An opinion of professional lookers, benign in intent and not meant to offend, on a board of gunners, buyers, sellers, collectors, became a course in salesmanship and unwarranted criticism of John Boyd.

So John got a little pissed off, .......doesn't everybody?

A lawyer friend of mine who is the son of a lawyer and is filthy rich goes to Walmart to buy a rifle. I got a little pissed off at him. But people said its his money. I still get pissed when I see him. And I still think I'm right. Spend your money at a gunshop because those are the people who need supporting. And when it breaks are you going to take it Walmart to have it fixed? No, you're going to take it to a gunshop like John's and have it fixed, well what happens if John is no longer in business?

It is obvious from his post that "customer profiling" is not working out very well for the dealer in Houston and his "friends."

I am in agreement with Stan.

This problem is not limited to retail. I am in the professional services business, and I would have a few more shotguns in the safe but for a lot of wasted and uncompensated time working on engagements that were never intended to go anywhere or dealing with folks looking for free advice.

I respect your opinion, buzz, even tho' we disagree on this. I also respect John, who defended his opinion on this as well as anybody could have.

All my best, SRH

P.S. Please note that I corrected an error in my previous post from earlier this morning. I had inadvertently left out the word "not" in the second sentence, and it totally changed my intended meaning. My apologies to you, John, for my grievous error in grammar. Thanks to Gil for noticing that and bringing it to my attention.

Always have to respect a sharp-eyed gent who pays attention to the "little details" My compliments, Sir- well done indeed. proper grammar and syntax, the hallmark of a literate gentleman indeed.

Stan, don't post in the morning before coffee. I was glad you corrected that, you had me wondering...Geo

This whole thread reminds me of some poor politician caught somewhere he ought not to have been during a lean news week. Much to do about nothing much...Geo

Geo, it's hot, nothing is in, creeks are low and the best place in town is the nearest couch. I haven't heard a peep from across the pond about the Glorious Twelfth. You'd think they'd at least want to make us green with envy. Stan's about to have a fit waiting for the Glorious First Saturday in September, Noon, To be Precise, AKA the South Georgia Dove Hunter Heat Stroke Open. What else is there to talk about? Gil

Supposed to be 117F in Yuma on Saturday. Georgia heat stroke? Pfffft....

This sentiment is a tad odd.....the idea that a purchaser must 'support' a given business. I know the idea of the old Mom n' Pop store brings tears to our eyes, but at the end of the day Mom n' Pop need to earn their business - not be 'supported' as part of some sort of paternal relationship.


It shouldn't be hard. What with the dicks they have working at WalMart, Pop should have no trouble keeping customers.

Then again, the norm for gun shop owners is to be kinda cranky, know-it-all, and a bit brusque. So who knows?

As for who will fix it.....well, there will always be someone who can fix it, even if it means sending the gun out of state. As a human who has owned over 100 guns and never had one break, I don't get too worried about guns breaking. Then, I'm the same jackass who never has a car break and can hardly avoid getting 100K miles on a set of brake pads....

About time to move this thread to a more suitable forum--Misfires.

Yeah, 117 F at about 14% humidity. We're used 100 F at 85% humidity. That's about a 119 Heat Index for you, and somewhere north of 150 Heat Index here. It ain't the heat bro', it's the humidity. Oh, yeah, and then there's the gnats.

SRH

The internet is awesome for us lookers. We can imagine the joy of buying a fine gun, look at the pics and try to rationalize the expense (as if the money was there to rationalize spending). As far as calling to see if it's available? No clue. If it's listed and you want it and have the means-then buy it. If it's gone you'll get a call letting you know.

As for the dealer? I really don't want to waste his/her time if I'm not actually ready to buy. I'm forever buying a box of ammo, a holster/sling/case just to help encourage the business. I want them there when I do have the money and that awesome gun shows up.

This post has me scared to ask for pictures of a gun I'm sort of interested in. Has some changes to the stock but not sure I would like it. I hate to waste somebody's time. A whole 3 minutes maybe.

You probably didn't read the whole post.

Well, the humidity is low today, but this is the monsoon season and it will get worse. Was raining two weeks ago. At this time of year we usually get the edge of hurricanes from the Gulf of Mexico. When that happens it can get nasty. Flash floods, washed out roads and bridges, power lines down. Three years ago, trucks were being washed off the highway sideways by the flooding. About six years ago, it was 118 on the opener and started pouring rain in the early afternoon, so 118 with 100% humidity and it did not cool things off much. Was still in the 90s at 4:00 the next morning and the fields were steaming. Rain came down so fast that a bunch of boats and trucks got stuck on the launch ramps at the Colorado River and had to be towed out, full of water. No gnats, but lots of mosquitoes with West Nile Virus. And if we find a harvested melon field there will be a bazillion biting flies. And rattlesnakes. I can hardly wait.

This is a 1-ton Dually that got washed off Highway 111 near the Salton Sea, August of 2013. Plenty of humidity there. Two weeks later, it was dry as a bone.

Pic was there last night. Don't know what happened.

Oh I disagree there Greg, everyone should at least make a point of checking in with their local gun shop to see what they have first and foremost. That's what I do. Like Burkdog I'm always in there buying something to help support their business because you have to take care of the people that take care of you.

Conversely, I'm surprised no one commented on dealers that have the same overpriced stuff on their tables show after show. It's two sides of the same coin.

They must like hauling it around, or maybe they want to start a museum. I'm a busy guy and I pay my fee to get in a show and the dealers have the same stuff as last show at "You must think I'm stupid prices". Why do they like to waste my time?

Where's the outrage?! (LOL!! )

One thing I have noticed when visiting in America is that wherever I have been I have received excellent service; I wish the same was more widespread here in England.

Just been to a gun shop today that I have not visited before. They have been in business only for four years and are about a one hour drive away. They had something I was interested in so went down and made a purchase. Couldn't have asked for better service and I will be doing further business in due course. http://hadfieldguns.com/

There is one gun dealer in the north midlands area that I won't have anything to do with as as far as I am concerned he's a thieving robdog with more BS than one of your Texas ranches. One in the south west as he showed no interest in my presence and one in the east of England who had a similar idea. In fairness the owner was not there so they have a second chance. I then went into another shop not too far away and received helpful and good service where I made a purchase. http://www.mgrguns.co.uk/

If you are ever in England and looking for something I have no hesitation in recommending either. Check them both out for second hand English guns on their websites. Lagopus.....

Politeness and good manners cost little and yield much. And if you ordinarily exhibit politeness and good manners, on the times you don't it amplifies their impact.

I like to buy from the LGS and try to treat him and his store with respect, but if he acts like an ass or tries to gouge me ... tough for him. Like I said upthread, that's when it's very gratifying to see he's making so much money he doesn't need mine. We had a LGS in my area who helped our club with a project. In turn, we wanted to buy a gift certificate to his store to raffle off. He got all bent out of shape - why, I dunno. Mainers can be like that. - and lost me (and who knows how many other club members) as a customer. But I still go in and look from time to time, just in case.

Lagopus: While I'm not in the market for a used Brit gun (and the fun that goes with importing), I'm grateful for the tips in your post. They get filed away for future reference.

Now, whydontcha start a new thread and tell us about the Glorious 12th?

"Politeness and good manners cost little and yield much. And if you ordinarily exhibit politeness and good manners, on the times you don't it amplifies their impact."


may i politely suggest that you practice what you preach, least ye be regarded as a hypo crit...

I am being wholly internally consistent.

You just don't like getting the treatment you've earned.

well dave, as you and i have never done business, i do not know what treatment you refer too...


and i suggest again that you practice what you preach...

Dave, I think 'the Glorious 12th. is there just for the Press and the anti shooters to get excited about. A few grouse moors shoot a few on the 12th. for tradition but most wait until September when the birds are more sporting and fly better. A wet spring this year does not bode well and numbers may be down. Last year was a good one. My boss who owns a grouse moor is off to Argentina for dove instead and will shoot the grouse later. Lagopus.....

August is a grand time of the year to be in Cordoba. It is 43F right now, there, and will warm into the low 60s by mid-afternoon. I'm "homesick".

SRH

Doggone it Stan now I'm "homesick" too...Geo

In the car trade there is an equivalent and they call them 'messers" in the UK.

Improved Modified: You contacted me via PM, I sent you one. See the story that I sent you. You will know what we dealers have to deal with.


John

Actually we call them "tyre kickers". Its also known as "show rooming" where some one spends a lot of you time looking and asking questions then goes on the net to find it cheaper
Had an experience a few years back with a man who wanted all sorts of details on a boxlock we had for sale even wanted specific pictures . We had it on display at a game fair , the guy turns up looks and asks can he take more pictures ? We ask do want the gun or not ? No he says but I'm writing a book on the maker and want as much information on any of his guns as possible . Our answers second word was "off" ,

Gentlemen: I don't have a dog in this fight. My grandfather owned a gun store, my dad is in a professional service industry. I once asked my dad how he felt about people calling his office and asking questions and not hiring him. He told me everything he learned about customer service and customer relations he learned from his dad working in the gun store. My granddad used to say "Today's tire kicker, is tomorrow's check writer" Just a thought.

H

Gents and Ladies:
I have known John for many years. I don't think I have ever purchased a gun from him. However, I have referred several friends to him. They have all been treated with respect and most have purchased from him. The bottom line, he is honest has nice wares at reasonable prices and conducts business as a gentleman. He may be a bit frustrated with the finer gun business, understandable, in the current market dominated by tactical weapons, but he continues to operate as he always has.

I agree, John is just a little frustrated. What business owner doesn't get frustrated now and then.

Gunman I love it! "show rooming"

John
Quality Arms

When I was newly graduated from college I couldn’t find a job and worked for five years in sales, three of those years selling cars. I’d happily take other car salesmen’s “ups” when asked, often because they didn’t want to be bothered waiting on Hispanics or blacks. Just by treating those folks as I’d want to be treated I sold them a lot of cars and also gained many new customers sent in from them as referrals.

Steve

Rockdoc has it exactly right. In the 20 years before retirement I owned a futures commodity business, specializing in agricultural products. I always made it a point to give non customers as much time as possible knowing that eventually they would either become a client or refer others to my firm. I treated traders who got their information from me but had their accounts at other firms exactly the same and eventually many did transfer their business to me, which I knew they would eventually. There is no substitute in business and life to treat the least as the first.

Gunman:I'm happy to hear that you have them over there as well.

Best Regards, George

Ever think how much books and articles on specific guns and makers help sell vintage guns ? Impossible to own all the guns needed to write authors depend on details from owners.

Boats

Now that's just way too much common sense and decency for some on here to grasp....

I guess my view is the only people who are deserving of a brush-off are the known, repeat offenders.

From reading all the past posts, I see one of the "professional" has replied. Naturally he did not have anything good to say. He always has lots of post though to do

Take Care

John

Boats , if the guy had been up front he would have had a much more positive response ,but posing as a potential buyer was not on .

Having been in sales of new homes for years I would suggest a shift of attitude to most of the gun dealers I have encountered. Buyers frequently don't know exactly what they want, they just know they want something. They also know they either have to sort out the details for themselves unless they believe in you as an honest dealer. So I learned to sell myself to them first and to carefully determine what was holding them back from purchasing. I fit the package to the customer in a caring manner. Did some disappoint me after investing hours in them - sure. Did some of those refer others to me - certainly because they believed they could rely on my information and service. And many sales came about years later from the time spent. Have to prime the pump!

I don't think I have ever met a gun sales person that has taken a sales techniques course. They simply do not know how to ask for the sale. They usually are so gun oriented they forget they are in sales. You have to help the buyer past his fears of purchasing. Show them a selection that fit their need, demonstrate how to use and care for those most interesting to them, show them the accessories which would be nice to have with the gun, ask which they favor an then have the courage to ask for the sale. You will have earned the right to ask. You will be surprised by how much money walks because the sales person fails to earn the right to ask.

I'm sending John a Christmas card this year, just to stay in touch and make him feel I appreciate him.

We made 15% on a spec house. So, on an average 3 br modern, $20-25K We know you are only likely to buy one. We can spend a few days working with you. We can give incentives to move forward.
I doubt the average firearms sale has anything like that gross. If anything, the internet, and auction result compilations, have taken the margins way below 10%.
So, a business owner that has many leads to follow up on has only so much time to spend in conversion.

If you are a price sensitive shopper that has sent me numerous emails that have gone no where, Why would I waste my time trying to make $150.00 on a sale to you, when from the beginning I already know the odds are low, the effort high, you want me to lose money on it if possible (so you can brag on internet forums about your great negotiating prowess), and it's doubtful you'll ever buy anything else without all the rigamarole in the future?
Remember, these horses have already come to the trough on a few earlier occasions. Their patterns are known.

While I would never have started a thread like this one, and I have no clue who John is, on principle and experience, I am in John's corner.

CZ, I wouldn't be surprised if you sold a bunch more houses than the good/best gun market can sustain, but I'd bet the gross profit margin is quite a bit higher than 10% on gun sales. They probably just don't sell like hot cakes.

John's got a point, but you yourself just said you're willing to exchange 'numerous emails' before you make your business decision. Some markets even make contractors more service oriented. Some folks just have a different way of looking at it.

In the store I worked in profit margin on new guns was under 10%, used guns 30-40%. The store made money by selling ammo and accessories not new guns.

Chuck H
I will look forward to receiving it
I expect to received by mail so we do not have to add you to the "professional talkers club"

The list is getting pretty full, not sure if any openings
Need to check

Have a great Christmas!

John

Generally, when I make an inquiry, and at that time, I'm interested in what I'm asking about... enough, that if I get the right answers I'm going to buy it on the spot. In many cases, dealers take a week or so to get back to you and I lose interest. This has happened to me quite a few times and quite a few dealers have lost a lot of opportunity with regards to a purchase.

John I agree I am a retailer and it's frustrating sometimes but.I had a lady spend an hour and a half trying to pick out a $60 gift.I consider myself a fairly decent salesman in my area but I finally sat down.I wanted to tell her look I'll pick out and pay for if if you would leave...but my better judgment changed my mind.
When I had a lot of extra money I always told the dealer I was a tire kicker but wanted the info on a gun.The ones that were lazy and didn't want to give me the info or that were real slow I generally passed.
I like what Clapper Zapper said it just like fishing .
Monty

PS and by the way if you think men are tough start dealing with women..

Have the Turkish imports taken the knees out on the Spanish import gun dealers?