A friend has a 12 gauge double barrel shotgun with the center rib marked “J. SAIVE ARMS LEIGE” and “Le National” marked at the breech of the left barrel with serial number 40314. “MADE IN BELGIUM” marked on the under side of the left barrel near the breech.

Barrels measure 28 ¼” / 72 centimeters and are choked Modified and Full. Dull finished half pistol grip stock measures 14 ½” LOP x 1 ½” DAC x 2 ½” DAH to a hard rubber butt plate. Side clips and cross bolt locking, push button fore end release, European style sling swivels on the stock and barrels and two triggers. About 70% case colors, 95% blue, perfect bores. No dents, cracks, splits or pitting. Various markings on the water table and barrel flats. Gun weighs 6 ½ pounds.

Any thoughts on who made it and when? What's a realistic value of the gun?

Thanks for any info.

Jolly

If I was selling it I'd ask 4 to 5 hundred...if I was buying I wouldn't want to pay much over 3 hundred.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20saive%20gb.htm

I'm terrible with lettres annales but if that is a lower case script 'r' it's 1939
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...s66tEXntqw/edit

Seems in decent shape...if its tight n works ok could be a decent shooter for around 400 + or -
franc

Lets take a swipe at an objective evaluation. We need three factors: Brand Value (BV) level, Original Quality (OQ) grade, and Current Condition (CC) level. I will offer two definitions for each factor and lets see if we can sorta get a consensus on which one fits best.

For BV: 1. Lessor known Continental maker's and/or associated with lower quality, or, 2. Unknown makers, retailers, and unmarked "guild" guns.

For OQ: 1. Plain BLNE, or, 2. Farmer's/colonist gun.

For CC: 1. Limited use - slight finish wear, little shooting, or, 2. Significant use.

OK, pick the one definition from each of the three factors that you think best describes this gun as it currently sits. I'll attach a $ value to the consensus definition.

DDA

Sideclips are a small plus, but the Greener Crossbolt looks to be in need of adjustment or showing signs of wear. Exterior looks to have been "freckled" with rust and cleaned up, leaving a propensity to rust again. A plain using gun with some risk that the crossbolt will need work. Doesn't seem to be much interest in SXS's these days. I would think a hard to sell item for more than about $425.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your input.

Sure not like trying to evaluate a Fox, Parker, Winchester or such.

Be interesting to see what Rocketman's system comes up with. Pretty neat way of doing it.

Thanks again, Jolly

Drew, I don't think that's a lower case r. Those letters are in script, and on the sheet I have, the long leg is on the other side. More like a mirror image of a lower case r. But then . . . I can't find anything that's a really good match. 1950 or 1960 are maybe the closest.

It does look more like a 50s import Larry. Canons Delcour S.A. was in business until about 1968 when they were acquired by Fabrique National de Herstal.

I have one in 16ga. A letter from the NRA Dope Bag said it was imported in the 50s.

Well, if you will go here and look at the proof marks on you shotgun, it will tell you the year of proof

It shows the cursive

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html



Mike

Thanks Norm. It's probably a 'pi' which would be 1957 but I'm giving up on lettres annales deciphering

I'm just remembering I had a Saive, imported by Continental Arms..it had a circle on the breech of each bbl with a Centaur in each circle..the Gun was so named...
I got it at Kittery Trading post for 275, it looked petty new, n I shot it a few times before I dropped it n really smashed the stock..first gun I ever bought....have the receiver as a paperweight
franc

Maybe a cursive lower case h? (1955) That would be my guess.

Like no pi I've seen & I've seen my fair share of them. What about r or n??? Mu is 1955.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Maybe Eta? Do not see it in the list but what Greek letter is 1953?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The problem is getting what you see on the gun to match the chart. I don't see anything that's a real close match for what we see on those barrel flats.

Have you noticed that there doesn't seem to be a regular order from 1948 to 1961. 1949 is odd, also 52,53 and 61. It appears that they skipped letters that could be mistaken for regular lower case script. I am sure I have seen the mark above on a Belgian gun I have owned. To confuse things further, what do you think this is?

My guess is an odd Delta.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Why not a j…?

Gunwolf

Due to the fact that I believe i & j were surmounted by a dot holding to dot your i(s) and cross your t(s)???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

$450 seems like the popular number. So, JB, lets just reverse engineer this value. BV4-OQ8-CC3.5 = $450, BV4-OQ9-CC1 (pristine condition) = $450, BV5-OQ7-CC2.67 = $450, BV5-OQ8-CC1 = $450.

My feeling is somewhere between BV4-OQ8-CC3.5 and BV5-OQ8-CC1, say something like a BV4.5-OQ8-CC2.5. In words, brand value between unknown makers, retailers, and unmarked "guild" guns and lessor known Continental maker's and/or associated with lower quality. Original quality grade at plain box lock non-ejector. Current condition between limited use - slight finish wear, little shooting and significant use.

Are you comfortable with that analysis, JB?

DDA

Rocketman,

Yes, absolutely comfortable with that ananalys and thanks for taking the time to present it.

Looks to be a $400 - $450 gun depending on how motivated the buyer and seller happen to be but $450.00 seems to be realistic.

Thanks again to you and all the others that replied.

Jolly