The advertisement for the new 5th season Downton Abbey series shows two of the guys standing with cool looking sxs's. I've enlarged the picture but cannot identify the guns. One anyway appears to have the older style 'mutton-chop' side-plates, maybe a Scott. Can you tell what the guns are?...Geo

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/04/showbiz/feat-downton-abbey-premiere/index.html

most likely - only the prop man knows-

George at least they are side by sides.No shotgun looks better than a side by side. Bobby

Clearly a Stevens 311.

George, I have seen all those episodes. One is devoted to a day afield. When I have a moment I'll try to look at the episode and have a better look.

They have done pretty well on guns in "Downton Abbey". Both of those guns have an indication of a side lock's lock plate. Of course they could be side plates, or even Grullas.

The Midsommers Murders has not done well on guns (blue collar sidelocks).

There's an older "My Family and Other Animals" where the to brothers hunt with British box locks, as would have been likely.

I think maybe Holland & Holland or Purdey! Just a SWAG- Stove bolt American box-locks, Nein!!!

The guy in the middle has a gun with an Anson release - you can see the pushbutton exposed at the very tip of the forend.

Typically seen on Purdey and Boss guns I'm sure there are a lot more.

The Christmas episode of Downton had a driven hunt scene in which the earl was shooting a SLE (type unknown) and the son in law was shooting a pair of BLE's

Actually, the Earl has three daughters.

Well, I watched the opening episode tonight and watched the guys shoot at a rabbit with one of the mystery guns. Still no clue as to the identity of the guns.

Strange gun manners though. Tom shot at the rabbit twice broke down his gun and handed it to the other guy and proceeded to run off (after the rabbit, I presume)...Geo

ME too- He fired the double almost like a single triggered gun that doubled- BangBang- the muzzles were pointed at about waist high level, no movement or tracking, then he opened the breech, the spent shells ejected, and instead of giving the opened gun to a servant (loader) he handed it to Lord Gillingham (whereas he was the chauffeur at Downton Abbey before he married Lord and Lady Granthamn's daughter Sibby--Then he jogs about 80-- 100 yards, comes back, but nothing in the game or shell bag- later, after he gets his shotgun back from His Lordship and the three of them walk back, we see a defunct hare in his off gun hand. I am an avid watched, for like this character Tom, I am a Mick of bog-trottin' lineage, and I like to see just why us Green Irish hate the frickin' Limey Upper Class-

Interesting to watch the movie "The Shooting Party", which I believe was James Mason's last before he died. He plays the owner of the estate, and is shooting a pair of hammerguns. At the end of the movie, Edward Fox (playing a renowned shot who's being challenged by a young upstart--even though they're not supposed to be counting) fires at a low bird and kills a beater. Other than referring to the bird as a woodcock when it was clearly a pheasant, pretty good movie.

I seem to recall the Edward Fox character saying something to the effect that Henry Holland was skilled at fitting the odd shooter and made a good gun, but he preferred Purdey's because of their smoothness and that they were he go to maker, or at least words to that effect.

I do recall at least one of the other shooters used H&H and I think the James Mason character shot a pair of hammerguns

that is correct, the son-in-law was widower to the youngest daughter

Old Colonel what you are recalling is from this which has one of the closest to a real Edwardian driven shoot scene on film, the filming was done at Knebworth House, Hertfordshire.

In the Christmas Special Downton showing (may not yet have been show in North America), things kick off with a house party for the grouse shooting and scenes on the moor.

A point I noticed was that during a brief scene the guns were walking from one stand to the next. A few guns were sleeved in canvas slips, which struck me as out of place. Whilst I am fairly sure basic canvas slips were available in the late 1920s, the photos I have seen of shooting at that time have never shown gun slips being used.

In fact I can remember as a boy/young man that shoots I attended in the 1960s/early 70s carrying opened guns between drives was the norm, slips not coming into fashion until the late 1970s/early 1980s.

Tim

Yes I muttered and chuntered while 'she-who-must-be-obeyed' watched the Christmas episode. Please don't think it an accurate portrayal of grouse shooting. It's just a bunch of Luvvie actors shooting guns with black powder blanks in who have probably only had two seconds instruction how to use a gun from someone else who has little idea either. Probably with nothing more than a reminder to push the safety catch forward and point them somewhere before pulling the trigger. The bit that amused me was how close the together the beaters were. Usual distance apart is around 100 yards; big places those grouse moors! And with dogs ranging between. A bit like those spaghetti Westerns that should be taken with a pinch of salt. Lagopus.....

We brought back our present Labrador [censored] from England when she was 10 weeks old. She was bred by a seasoned citizen and long time Field Trialer named Vince Mitchell. He was responsible for the shooting footage in the "Shooting Party". He described the scene as ludicrous.

Whoops! I used the British term for a female dog. Tut, tut

I've read commentary that it would have been unlikely Lord Grantham would have had a Labrador Retriever pre-WWI. However, breed was registered in the UK almost a decade before WWI.

Gil, I thought your comment on the likelyhood of Lord Grantham having a Labrador pre-WW1 was interesting. I checked the pictures in my Rupert Godfrey book "Olly" and in Jonathon Ruffer's classic "The Big Shots". I think these illustrations are mostly period.

Lots of Labs laying about, mostly in the group pictures. Lots of Springers too though...Geo

Check this out:

The Gundogs of Downton

A lab is probably not period correct.

OWD

ROMAC.
Regarding the Anson forend release, patent use numbers were stamped on them until about 1890. The highest number I've seen (1888) was 24626. They were widely used and in the case of William Powell & Son, most of their guns were so equipped after about 1880.

The fact that England was, at the time of Downton Abbey and in the words of Lord Roberts, a 'nation of riflemen' was blindingly obvious from the grouse shooting scene. All their shots were 'rifled'; none of the Guns swung through as they fired. All 'misses behind' I suspect.

Nigel.

I watched "The Shooting Party' just a few days ago, for the first time. Firstly, I winced as one Gun's loader draped two (supposedly expensive) guns over one arm, and walked off with the barrels clanking together. In real life that would have been grounds for instant dismissal. Secondly, when the Edward Fox character was asked about his guns, he replies that he 'had them made to measure', as though that were unusual. No monied gentleman of that time would have had anything other than bespoke guns, and his comment leapt out as completely superfluous.

Nigel.

And how about Lord Muckin'futch and his Yellow Lab "ISIS" talk about politically incorrect, albeit 90 years agone now-- Like having a Alsatian named "Hitler" in Israel!! Oy Vey, already.

Or better yet- Oregano

And the script co-ordinator never read the "If a Sportsman true you'd be, listen carefully, my, to me- never ever let you gun, pointed be at anyone, stops and beaters oft' unseen, lurk behind some leafy screen- calm and steady always be, and never shoot where you can't see- You may kill, or you may miss, but at all times remember this, all the pheasants ever bred, won't repay for one man dead" I hope that Limey fop Edward Fox takes that to his grave!!!

The visiting Hungarian aristo in "The Shooting Party" wonders why they don't continue with a shoot. "It was only a peasant!" The Lord's granddaughter explains that it was one of THEIR peasants . . . and thus ended a potential romance.

We can always find gun stuff to criticize in movies . . . except maybe in those made by John Milius, who is both a gun nut and seems to pay careful attention. I expect the "made to measure" comment from Fox might have been something the general audience (those who don't know guns) would have found interesting--most of them probably thinking you do that with a suit, but not with guns.

I liked Fox better as General Horrocks, XXX Corps commander, in "A Bridge Too Far"--when he explains to his tankers the plan to arrive "just in the nick of time" to save the beleaguered paratroopers at Arnhem. Missed their schedule by a bit.

One of the two biggest mistakes Ike made as Supreme Commander- approving that friggin' Limey Montgomery's half-vast "Market- Airborne- Garden- Ground troops fiasco- no logistics, poor drop zones, lack of radio communications links between the Limeys, the Canadians, the Polish and both the American 82nd A/B and 101st A/B divisions involved-

The other mistake Ike made, IMO was relieving Patton after he slapped the little coward in a field hospital in Sicily- if Patton had been in full command of all armorer and related support forces after we kicked the Italians and Germans out of Italy, and had planned the Normandy invasion along with Omar Bradley- I believe he would have used a feint at Juno and Sword, passed up the better defended Omaha and Utah beaches, and done what Hitler had planned, with full air cover (which precludes weather delays) to knock out the Panzers- Pas De Calais was the best logistical choice, way closer to the French ports we needed to keep the supply lines going- And Patton and his Chief G-2 Officer, Colonel Koch- who had guessed the Winter 1944 offensive in the Ardennes that lead to the Battle of The Bulge, where we were again (Pearl Harbor w/o the salt water and Navy)caught fat dumb and happy- by the Krauts- would not have happened, and Germany would have possibly surrendered (after killing Hitler) long before May 1945--

Damascus, you are correct, it was a decent film I have watched more than once

I do believe the dog's name relates to the Egyptian goddess Isis from ancient Egypt. A reasonable choice given the actual Earl of Carnarvon's (the owners of the house in real life) association with the King Tut discovery as it's patron

The Downton Abbey in real life is filmed at Highclere Castle but the grouse shooting scene moves to a friend's place which is Alnwick Castle in Northumberland. Quite a lot of Harry Potter stuff was filmed there also. It is the home to the Percy family who are the Dukes of Northumberland. Watch the show through rose tinted spectacles; it may help.

Battle of the Bulge; seen that film as well. Not much historical accuracy there either. As 'far fetched as muck from China' as we would say. Lagopus.....

I think i liked Edward Fox best in "The Day of the Jackal"

Getting back to depictions of hunting in films or TV, the reality is most of the time the depiction is wrong. That's normal.

It does not bother me as i am used to it and expect it.

What does bother me when supposed sports programs are horrible. I have watched so much terrible dog work and shooting described as good, on flush my preference is simple, shoot the producer, that or the fat bearded fella who won't shut up.

I only feel bad for the dogs.

As for real history shown in hollywood films, only now and then is there true fact, most is drama and art for entertainment.

Indeed.

Film makers are in the entertainment business, and generally do not make documentaries although there are some movies with accurate historical content.

Most productions suffer from political bias and sloppy research.

'Battle of the Bulge' is an excellent case of both. That's where the diesel tank column rushes to capture a supply of gasoline.

The cluelessness of movie directors is never better shown than when the subject is aviation. Fewer people understand aviation than understand guns.

How about the gangster pistoleros who shoot with the pistol horizontal? Note they never miss.

Hollywood = fantasy, but then so does real life politics and the news reporting thereof.

Julian Fellows, same chap that writes Downton Abbey won an Oscar for Gosford Park in 2002… in it there’s a much more convincing shooting party scene, with pheasants falling stone dead out of the sky and some good dog work as well….parts of it probably filmed at a real shoot.
If you watched the Downton episode with the shoot and paid attention to the credits at the end you would have seen the disclaimer saying that “no animals where harmed during production”
Guess a lot has changed in the last 13 years, obviously there’s a bigger need to be politically correct these days.


all best

CJ

No way to be politically correct and shoot anything save clay, and I am not sure clay is even acceptable to some loons.

Fortunately most if not all here could care less for modern correctness, however I argue all should strive for traditional manners (I always strive to be the man mother insisted I be, and the hunter my setter expects. Such conduct yields a decent level of toleration from my dear wife.)

Well said, Sir. "The field is the touchstone of the man, indeed" My dogs, all gone now, are dear, my wives, well-that's another story- But as Kipling said so well in his poem about a proposed wedding- "A thousand women like Maggie, are willing to bear the yoke, but a woman's only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke"_ or was it Sigmund Freud???

The only good scene in that movie is when Robert Shaw is reviewing his tank commanders and they sing "Panzerleid". The Germans had good songs.

"Zero Dark Thirty", a mostly very good movie, had the CIA station chief in Pakistan wearing a CIA lapel pin! Most of the Americans know who's CIA and who's not, but you don't advertise--especially since your typical diplomatic installation has a lot of local employees.

I thought Robert Redford did quite well for an actor in the lion charge scene in 'Out of Africa' - pulling out the spare pair and quietly getting ready for the charge with his Lancaster .450 DR ...

... then in steps La Streep with her bolt action, held up to the shoulder like a crutch, not a rifle and finishes the bugger orf! Not very lady-like!

Tim

While we're on the subject of guns on film and TV.
One of my favourite films is 'Shout at the devil'
I still cringe when Lee Marvin and Roger Moore are caught poaching, they throw their double rifles into a river before running away.

Another gem is in an old British feature film from a rather violent, gritty 70's cop show called The Sweeney.
(Cockney rhyming slang, Sweeney Todd - Flying squad )
In the film, the police are hunting down some ruthless armed robbers. In one scene, a bank manager has a sawn off shotgun stuffed in his face and if I remember correctly, the robber goes on to say...
'You are privileged to be looking down the barrels of a gold plated Purdey shotgun squire !
Now, as a bank manager, I'm sure you'll appreciate that any man capable of cutting a gun like that in half wouldn't hesitate to cut you in half ! '
Ah, they don't make films like that anymore

I attended a police auction of confiscated firearms about 20 years ago in Houston. Most expensive gun sold for $700, a Winchester 21 with 18" barrels.

How about the movie "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels". You've got to like a movie that has as a major subplot the reuniting of a matched pair of Holland & Holland's.

Does anyone recognize the express rifle Michael Douglas had in "The Ghost and the Darkness"? In that one, Val Kilmer shot one of the lions with a Howdah Pistol.

There's always the John Wayne film "Big Jake", where he refers to his doubles as "Greeners"...

The Michael Douglas character in that movie was a Hollywood invention. And Patterson didn't kill either lion with a Howdah. But in many respects, not a bad attempt. Robert Stack--an actor who knew his way around guns--starred in a 50's version of the story of the Tsavo maneaters called "Bwana Devils". Early 3D movie.

Wife and I saw "The Ghost and the Darkness" together. She nudged me in one scene where a lion is carrying off a victim and whispered "A lion can't do that!" Pointed out to her that a leopard, which is a bunch smaller, can do that--as reported by Corbett in some of his maneater hunting stories. Reinforced later on when she saw our mouse catcher in chief trotting across the yard with a full-grown rabbit in his mouth, weighed about as much as he did.

Show this to your wife,and then-- don't go near the water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBNYwxDZ_pA

Larry,

I should have said "shot at" one of the lions. The lions are mounted and displayed in the Field Museum in Chicago. They were maneless males, but the mounts are reportedly kind'a pieced together. They don't look too bad, but it's been several years since I saw them..

That jag/croc set-to is awesome. And I don't use that word lightly.

SRH

A movie scene I remember was a Clint Eastwood western. A bad guy is sniping from what looks like 1/2 a mile away. Good ole Clint fetches a case from his horse, removes a takedown bolt rifle, attaches a scope, looks through it, does a couple of adjustments to the scope and blows the guy off with one shot.

the movie was Joe Kidd -

My recent favorite western with double guns is "Appaloosa", in which the actor Viggo Mortensen carries "The 8 Gauge".

SRH

I recall a character with a shotgun on the old "Wyatt Earp" TV show. Think it was a 10 gauge. The name Shotgun Gibbs sticks with me for some reason. And of course Doc Holliday did carry a shotgun at the OK Corral.

Here's on you might enjoy from Life on Mars. Classic Gene Hunt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Us7ygIUII Lagopus.....

Or even this one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t366JGFiKNw Lagopus.....

Shooting at Highclere [Downton Abbey] is reviewed in the book, "The Great Shoots",by Brian P Martin,on pages 155-162. We learn that Lord Porchester, heir to lord Carnarvon, ran the shoot in the 1984-5 season and that he used a pair of Purdeys with pistol grips and 30 inch barrels,also that he was a very fine shot. It is unlikely that these family guns would be used as props in the production Downton Abbey.

One Carnarvon was the man who discovered King Tut's tomb . . . and supposedly died as a result of the tomb's curse.

That was him, was mentioned earlier in the thread.
I saw a documentary on him not long ago, he loved motor cars, especially the faster ones and was in a few accidents as a result….one particular rather nasty crash left him with a few broken bones, he was prescribed a long stay in a warmer climate to speed up the healing, that’s what led him to Egypt... the rest is history, as they say.
He died of Sepsis as a result of a mosquito bite he got while at the banks of the river Nile.


CJ