Hi i have been reading for a few days now. Lots of good info. I am looking to purchase my first sxs in 12ga. I am wanting a starter gun and can't spend more than $900. Where should I start? Are there any good places to look on the internet besides gun broker. I want an older gun, but not an antique. Thanks and I am looking forward to hearing from you guys.
Stroud
Check your local gun shows. Spanish guns can be bought rather cheaply, but can have timing problems. Always buy on condition, not brand name. I'd spend $500-$600 and save the remainder in case any work is needed to make it right. Should get you a field grade Ithaca, Nitro Special, or other filed grade/entry level gun if you look around. The Stevens 311 and/or Savage Fox B can also be had for slightly less, but are less balanced. You never know what opportunities pop-up at gun shows.....
Mike Doerner
You should be able to find a good 12 ga Philly Fox Sterlingworth or L C Smith for around $900 to a $1000 if you look around awhile. Bobby
For $900.00 you should be able to find a decent gun. What are you going to shoot with the gun? Do you reload? One or two triggers?
Let us assume you want a double for a little hunting and a little clay target use. Chokes that should give you some flexability are I/C & M or M/F. If you reload go for the M/F, if not go for the I/M. Easy to reload spreaders.
For $900.00 I would look first for a Ithaca NID. In my part of the woods you should be able to fine a 90% gun for $700-750.00. Spend the rest on shells. NID are great guns for the money. Modern deminsions, 2 3/4" chambers, strong enough for most factory loads, solid and reliable.
I would suggest an A.H.Fox Sterlingworth that was built in Philadelphia as opposed to one built by Savage in Utica. (Philly built guns are generally a little more refined.) Not only would this American Classic be a fine "starter" gun but could also carry you through your doublegun sojourn as these guns handle wonderfully and are very eye appealing.
I would suggest you looking on:
http://www.gunsamerica.com and also check the various dealers around the country--many of them have websites linked to this site--just scroll down to the bottom of this page and click on "Sponsors & Advertisers" and "DoubleGun Rack".
Thanks. I want to hunt upland game birds with the gun. I have an O/U 20ga that I use for dove and quail. And I have a BPS 3.5 for ducks and geese. So this would be a carry in the field for pheasant and some quail hunting.
1 or 2 triggers makes no differnce to me. ejectors are prefered but i have experience without. I always put hulls in my pocket anyway.
I do reload fast steel for ducks, so i could reload. I just dont have time to shoot enough. Work full time and have a 10 month old son.
I did see a beretta sxs with no model number on gunbroker which was by now for $850.00. I asked seller some questions with no reply and it was gone today. It looked like a good deal.
One of the best sites to watch is right here. We are all good guys and sort-of friends. Gunsamerica is another good choice. Another would be Shotgun Sports. I probably would stay away from auction sites until you are more knowledgeable. There is/was a Grade II Ugartechea on Gunsamerica for $899. I especially love Syracuse Lefevers. If you'd be happy with a single trigger, A BSS is hard to beat. They can be had in 12 ga. in the $900 range, if you shop carefully. AYA made a pretty good double for Sears. I bought one about 4 years ago for $250, including shipping, from a store in Plymouth, MA. As always, a used, older gun for $900 is far and away better than anything you can buy new, for $900. Try to find one with modern stock dimensions. Older guns, especially some of the older American guns, tend to have drop like a hockey stick. You don't want to have to add a $200 stock bending job to your $900 gun. Good luck with your quest. JL
I'm with KY JON on this. I'm a bit patial to Ithaca and Lefever guns, but honestly the NID is a great choice. If you don't like it you will always get your money back on it, maybe more. But a good all around choice. Avoid the tempation of the inexpensive Flues model as they have "special needs". Nitros, although plain, are the workhorses of the lot. It will outlive you.
Now i would like an english stock as that is what i have on my o/u. Will i find one on the american made sxs? I also notice that many are 30"+. Why are so many so long? is 26" or 28" hard to come by? Sorry for being do green.
I would like an english stock as that is what i have on my o/u, will i find one on the american made guns? I also notice that many are 30"+. Why are they so long? is 26" or 28" hard to come by? Sorry for being so green.
I have a Nice late Baker with steel bbls and English grip that may fit your need.
Next picture
All the suggestions so far are good ones.
The one I'll add to the mix is the Ithaca/skb doubles that were made by skb and imported by Ithaca. Thay are reliable and for the most part priced right. The model 100 is single trigger pistol grip and you should be able to find a nice one for no more than $800.00 The 280 is English grip and a little harder to find and you will more than likely have to pay a little more for it than the 100.
The one thing to watch for on these is the wood cracking at the scallops where the head meets the action. These were prone to cracking there but if you once a year or so will tighten the thru bolt and keep it tightend up, it will give years of good service.
Be carefull SxS's are addictive and all you will do is want more!
The Ithaca/skb Model 100 is the sleeper, in my book.
I do have some legit quality guns but my prejudice for functional peasant guns is something of the Baikal family - which is cheap. I got a couple for around $295-plus and I have three, two 12's and a 20. If you want a straight stock just saw the pistol grip off, sand and file to rough shape being sure to reduce checkering and prepare to make a longer buttpad.
This straight stock shape should be longer than what can be made from a standard Baikal, unless you are short armed, small, or effectively short armed by virtue of being thick-chested front to rear with heavy arms. I will try solid Gabon ebony for my Basikal's butt though it's weight must be considered. A stock thus cut straight would be short but fine for cold weather shooting over garments or warmer weather with a padded shooting jacket. If you want two stock lengths get two guns and chop away. Ken Hurst can recommend people to do checkering as well as the modifications. A temporary close-enough chop job will give you a feel for the fit after which suggestions can be made to a stockman.
Barrels on double trigger Baikals from Remington (or EAA marked before that) apparently are 28" only. That is the first way to go. If you can unscramble your mind and coordination in using double triggers it will be good mental conditioning. It's also a low cost way to start.
Stroud,
You are about to discover that 92% of the fun is in the looking. Let me give you some basic advice. Buy quality first, condition second and the rest will take care of itself. Buy a gun that fits your needs with as little changes as possible. Changes cost money. Straight grip can be made from pistol grips if you are willing to do it yourself.
Quick list to search. All modern metals, demensions and solid shooters.
Ithaca NID
Lefever Nitro Specials
Lefever DS
Ithaca SKBs 100 and 280
Fox Sterlingworth - Late model by Savage
Hunter Arms
Hugululululas or how every you spell it.
When you get more advanced you will like guild guns from Germany and France but might be too advanced for now. Mostly in 16's.
Sorry I was never a Bikal fan but you might like them.
Forget Lefevers, F, G, H, grades. Too old for modern loads and most do not have steel barrels.
Forget Parkers- far above your price range.
Forget cheap Spanish doubles. Unless you know what you are looking at too great a chance of getting a repair problem. Some were called POS and that did not mean Pride of Spain. Guns from the 60 and 70's were not the best quality too often.
Here is one to look at Cabella NID #480324, go to advertisers on this site, go to Cabellas site and take a look. Decent shooter, in your price range. Do not know what the chokes are but drop them a phone call and find out.
Remember a 30" double is no longer than a 26" Auto or pump. The action is not behind the barrel like on a auto so the overall gun is much shorter. Hence a 30" double swings much nicer than you would expect and weight can be kept to about 7 pounds. Light guns are easy to carry but not to shoot and certainally no fun with heavy hunting loads.
I gotta nearly mint 12 bore Simson, 28" Mod&Full made in '51 if you are interested. Chopper
If you aren't prejudice against cheekpeices and slingswivels a post war JP Sauer is about as much gun as you will get for the money cited. Your pheasant hunting requirement can be met by either a 12 or 16ga.
Let's see, you have a 20ga O/U, a 3-1/2" BPS for waterfowl (is that a 12 or a 10?),
Seems to me what you need is a 16ga SxS to fill your upland needs. For $900 you should be able to find a great little German 16 w/28" bbls (not many Germans around with 26" bbls). Probably won't be a straight grip though and it may have 2-1/2" chambers but ammo is readily available for it. Most people would call them "Guild Guns" with no makers name (at the Vintagers the German Gun Collectors held a symposium at which Herr Appel declared there was no such thing as a "Guild Guns") or they may have a retailers name like Kettner. It may have some wear but if it's in good working order it's a bargain and if you take care of it, it will take care of you.
Hi....you did say you fancied an older though not ancient SxS.If I were looking for my first gun, with lets round it to $1000...I'd be looking for a nicely made Belgian no-name/guild 2 3/4" Boxlock,or the same from Germany.. like the other lads said, a Sauer, Simson, Geco,Buhag or something like that.
I've seen nice guns on Gunsamerica for that kinda cash.
Make sure the stock is a good fit, though they of course can be bent a bit most ways & lengthened with a pad...Get it checked by a GOOD DoubleGun 'Smith for the important stuff such as lock up, bbl dimentions & general shootability & you should have a nice first Gun to shoot with confidence & pride.
If your getting into older Guns, you might think of reloading,mostly for less pressure than Dollars , ha ha.
good luck mate
Franc
Stroud: You mentioned shooting steel on ducks. You probably know this, but it's a bad idea to shoot steel through any old double. TT
The world is full of used ok euro doubles that will meet your requirements. As a example, here is what looks like a 60's gun, sidelock, ejector, Brno/CZ (made in the Czech Rep, not a Turkish gun marketed by CZ)on Gunbroker that is currently sitting for under $300
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=57552359 Even if it closes for $500-$600 its a deal. I also see a lot of AYA's that close for under $500. Good solid guns that beat Stevens 311's and Fox model B's for both quality and often cost.
Ken1,
That's a decent gun you cited, with coil spring sidelocks. Nothing to be ashamed of there, and y'r right: a lot more 'shotgunnery' than the contemporary American guns, albeit our guns are stout -- but very often somewhat clubby handling.
Altho this is a oft repeated topic, used Ugartechea Model 30's turn up in the market, Cabela's at Dundee having had a half dozen recently in all sorts of configurations.
Mostly they were straight hand game guns, but some were light and slender as in the ideal upland style, while a couple were 12ga Three inch guns that were heavily built and magnum proofed. the 'asking' was around the 800.00$ USD mark.
The usual caveat: yes, one may get a set of soft firing pins or improperly hardened sears. It happens. There are able smiths to remedy such probs, and if they go thru the gun and corrct anyother deficiencies, you still have a gam-y gun that will give good service and one that strongly resembles a half-way decent game gun. Just opinion and I expect everyone else to have theirs.
More opinion, based on experience and actual use: If a person wants a rugged waterfowling double the SO Model SxS imported by DeHaan will hold up in the worst conditions and usage -- tho I am not on saltwater, so can't speak to that. Examine the technical specs and you will see why theyare dang near weather proof.
All I do to add to it is romove the stock bolt, and fore arm iroons, soak the wood thor'ly with spar varnish, heavily wax the metal, and reassemble when the varnish is almost set hard.
My last SO is still doing duty as the club's trap boy and utility gun, is smoothly tight, and hasn't malfunctioned to date. As in all such reports, your milage may vary, but that's the latest on that particular gun.
This topic always draws advice and over the years it just gets better an more realistic. For sure, i do belive I'd add the NID to the group of rugged guns, tho I've never been taken by their aesthetics, myself. They dom however, certainly have the persona of a quintessential American hunting gun.
Lots of fun to read such strings and see what's 'new'in the common experience. now that the seasons are hear, happy powder smoke and falling birds to all hunters and their dogs.
Wow i never expected such a turn out on responses. This forum by far seems to be full of knowledge, opinion, and friendly advice. Thanks for all the responses. Now I must digest and decide. Stay tuned. But feel free to add more.
Thanks,
S
Take a look at our site doublegunhq.com. Under $1K 12 bore with English grip we have: Nice Gorosabel BL, clean Arizaga SL, very nice Ugartechea BL. In this price range we like the Remington 1900 guns and we have two or three, but these are pistol grip guns with quite a bit of drop.
While I own and enjoy the older American SxS's, my suggestion to a new SxS shooter would be to purchase a NEW import. There are many well under the $900 price range including HUGLU, CZ Bobwhite, Remington Spartan, Biakal, etc. Most come with choke tubes and a warranty.
Definitely get a light 16ga. if you can, and I would agree with the light 16ga. guild gun as a great option. Lots of Belgian and German 16's out there for around $500-$700. Even saw a 16b Manufrance Robust recently for about $500 that looked fine, with straight stock and good bores.
I don't know how you're built but the Belgian has a short stock with a fair amount of drop, the Sauer sidelock has a very loose lockup(I've examined this gun) and will need to be reworked by a competent gunsmith but is very attractively priced for a sidelock. Thad Scott does have some buys and I like to buy from him but be sure to ask lots of questions. Plan on doing some kind of work or small restoration on his bargain guns. You can always return what you don't like but shipping and receiving fees can eat into your budget quickly. My personal recommendation is the Sauer/Merkel/Simson extractor boxlocks in the $700/$900 range. Well engineered, built to modern dimensions and very reliable. Nice guns for the money and many to choose from as there are lots of guys from the U.S. cleaning out Europe's closets these days. Good luck on your quest.
Here's your man.
http://www.mbabllc.com/ Mark is a straight shooter.
Stroud:
Although all strait-stocked, there is a 3/4" difference in length of pull between the Sauer and the other two (guild gun and the Manufrance 16. The guild gun has a good deal of drop cf. to the others. I'd find the skeet-ic or ic-full most useful because I just like an open choke in there somewhere. The Froggie 16 would be pretty light for me and I wouldn't control it well but you might as you've got a 20 gauge o/u. You should ask about chamber length and cast if any if your experence tells you you need some to get your eye over the middle.
I doubt if you'll find Thaddeus overly chatty. Maybe that's a good thing because he won't charm you into buying something with the ribs falling off either. I didn't buy my first sxs sight-unseen because there was a local consignment rack with a few sitting on it but perhaps you don't have that option. As suggested by John Marin, if you can find an Uggie model 30 with light use for 4-500$, that might also be a good first choice and save half for the next/better one. My .02.
jack
Not a classic but another BSS-like workhorse from
Miroku , via Thad.
Stroud,
Depending on how much of a hurry you are in, if you have the time and want to look at a lot of doubles you might want to think about going to the Tulsa gun show this month. It is Oct 21 & 22 at the fairgrounds, and is advertised at 3,900 tables. This one usually has a lot of doubles too. You might try to make this one if you don't find what you're looking for ahead of time, especially from someone on this site.
Oh yeah, Welcome to the best gun site on the net, especially for doubles!
Curtis
Again I want to continue to thank all who post. I am enjoying this education during my decision making process. Seems Thad has many guns that look interesting in my price range. What are your thoughts on these English guns? Should I steer clear. I have not seen any suggestions for one yet.
Oh and Hawg'r, the hogs really looked good yesterday. Woooo pig soooie.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976746348.htm http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976751392.htm http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976757176.htm http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976744813.htm
I'd try and find a gun that the deminsions were close to fitting me.
The pull on these guns runs from 14 & 1/4" to 15 & 1/4" with drop points from 1 & 7/8" to 2 & 1/4".
L.F.
Most English guns will be chambered for 2 1/2" shells. Unless you reload they would not be my first choice.