Recieved a gun i purchased today to clean up and sympathetically restore.

The gun is a british made pinfire gun 28.25 inch barrels ( probably shortened from thirty) it it slightly unusual to look at as it has a forend that is an inch or two longer than is typical.

Really good coverage for a back action pinfire with scroll and border engraving and good quality figured walnut stock. Lock inletting is very high quality.

Operating the under lever pushes a bar up through the action body to push open the barrels which is something i have not seen before.

I bought it as an unnamed gun, but on close inspection the name "smith" is just decipherable on the locks, however i do not know anything about any gun makers of this period.. The top tag bolt is engraved with what could be a yorkshire rose so it could be provincial but my instincts say London, its in bad shape and will take a carefull hand even to get it broken down to a point where i can see the proof marks so i'll return with more info as i find it.

Photos would be a big help as well. At the very least they would give us something to drool over.

As we all know too well!

Believe me when i say there is absolutely nothing to drool over here, just a lot of rust and some suggestive hints that at one time this was a thing of reasonable quality. I don't have a camera that will really show off whats there in an un restored state; its not quite as bad as some of those nepalease cache guns but its not far off.

I have found London View and Proof marks either 1855-68 or 68-75 its unclear and rusted, rose twist damascus tubes are marked 13 and stamped with what looks to be 110 as the serial number, however the action and trigger guard are definately stamped 113.
Some suggestive scratches look as if they say Smith but the rest unclear.

Thoughts are from the other feintly visible marks either WM Smith or William Smith, could be "anything" smith at this point.

Looking at the serial numbers again it looks like they made a mistake when stamping the numbers. The trigger guard is 113, the action flats are 113 on one side and 113 on the other side, but on that right hand side the three was previously stamped as a 0 but was then scrubbed back and stamped as a 3.. kind of interesting.

Here something to keep you going, from IGC:

Name William Smith
Other Names Samuel Smith; Samuel & Charles Smith
Address1 St James's
Address2 St Pancras
Address3 34 Tottenham Court Road
Address4 2 New Lisle Street
Address5 59 Princes Street, Leicester Square
Address6 64 Princes Street, Leicester Square
Address7 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun lock maker; gun maker
Other Address
Dates 1792-1875
Notes
William Smith was apprenticed to John Joyner in 1766 and turned over to William Shepherd in 1771. He was recorded as a gun lock maker in St James's in 1792, and St Pancras in 1800.
In 1805 (some reports say 1801 but this has not been confirmed) he established a business at 34 Tottenham Court Road and traded as a gun maker. In 1806 the firm moved to 2 New Lisle Street. On 28 July 1812 he patented an "early quick firing" gun lock (No. 3588) which incorporated a convex hammer face. In 1817 he was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to the Prince Regent and moved to 59 Princes Street, Leicester Square. In 1820 when the Prince Regent became King George IV he was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary and the following year moved to 64 Princes Street. By this time he had been appointed Gunmaker to the Emperor of Russia and the King of Bavaria. In 1825 (some reports say 1823) William was succeeded by his son Samuel (1794-1855) and the name of the firm changed to Samuel Smith (some reports say Samuel Smith & Co). On 7 August 1830 Samuel patented a percussion cap and nipple named the "Imperial" (No. 5978). This cap was larger than normal and the hammer had interchangeable hammer noses to fit different sizes of nipple which were short and flat the intention being to place the primer close to the powder charge. Samuel claimed the invention made it "impossible to clog or miss-fire". In 1831 Samuel submitted a percussion musket to the Board of Ordnance but it was rejected. In 1834 Samuel's brother, Charles, joined him and the firm became Samuel & Charles Smith. Between 1835 and 1837 they were appointed Gun Makers to His Majesty (William IV) and the Duke of Gloucester. The firm continued to make flintlock guns until about 1850. In 1855 Samuel died. Presumably Charles had predeceased him because Samuel's two sons, also Samuel and Charles, took over the firm.
On 11 April 1867 Samuel (Jnr) patented a snap action breech-loader (No. 1075) with a single bite and sliding bolt. Half-cocking the right hammer withdrew the bolt. Although the specification is incomplete, it seems that an extension on the right hand tumbler withdrew the bolt but disengaged on firing. It may be that none of this type of action were made. In 1870 the firm moved to 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket, Samuel and Charles occupied these premises until 1875 when the firm closed down and the brothers appear to have emigrated to Australia.

Or:

Name William Smith
Address1 Potters Lane, Aston Park
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun maker
Other Address
Dates 1873-1875

Or:

Name William Smith
Address1 110 Lancaster Street
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & pistol maker
Other Address
Dates 1846-1886

What do the proof marks tell you - London or Birmingham?

Tim

Those in the red box are the marks i can see. The gun has no extractor.

Single bite rotary under lever which also has a cam mechanism on this rising bar making an the underlever unlock and tilt the barrels forward.

Barrels also appear to be marked AB who i assume was the barrel maker.

Identified as "George Smith" Had the lock plate sat in penetrating oil and its become a bit more decipherable took a pull and its definately george smith. There was also the makers name and some kind of legend on the barrels which is scrubbed out so if anyone has any information on George Smith it would be helpfull. Its very likely that i will have to fit new locks to this gun as the one original remaining lock is beyond hope; and finding one to match the original on the left side is more of a pipe dream still.

If your fitting new locks anyway, why not have some fun with it and convert it to centerfire? It should be quite a bit easier to find a set of centerfire locks I would think.

I see what your saying. I'm in the UK and here Pinfires can be kept off ticket if they are not going to be shot.

The barrels are very lightweight anyway and on top of that are a bit thin so i don't think its worth converting it to the be forced to put it on ticket and to still only be able to use light black powder loads in it. If i were going to put it on ticket i would rather enjoy shooting it as it were made and intended.

They are back action locks which are fairly easy to replace by carefully cutting and replacing the wood around the head of the stock and re in letting for the new locks.

All i shall have to do will be to get a set of back action locks, all the better if they have similar engraving, fit replacement hammer castings, and fit the locks; i may have to do some alterations to the tumbler if there is no half cock notch.

This Samuel Ebrel of Shrewsbury 12 Bore is in good enough condition to fire but like you I am a UK resident and I keep it off ticket and as you say if we use pinfires they have to go on our shotgun licence. I do find this extremely frustrating just to be able to use the gun a couple of times a year so like me the gun has given up smoking permanently. Just one thing that might be of interest the Damascus barrels still have the remains of its “Russet Browning” an extremely thick rust layer which was saturated with mixtures containing Tallow, Lard, amongst other things popular with the UK west coast Wild Fowlers. Though I do think the hammers are way out of proportion especially when you see other maker’s pinfires.

Demon, there are only two London George Smith's on the IGC database:

Name George Smith
Address1 Upper King Street
Address2 New Norfolk Street
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1841-1848
Notes
Recorded in the 1841 Census aged 30 in Upper King Street, he was next recorded in 1848 in New Norfolk Street. No further record.

And perhaps a more likely candidate for your gun:

Name George E Smith
Other Names George Smith & Co
Address1 40 Davies Street
Address2 16 Davies Street
Address3 104 New Bond Street
Address4 82 New Bond Street
Address5 10 Davies Street
Address6 253 Oxford Street
Address7 3 Park Lane
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun Dealer
Other Address 110 Mount Street; 3 Angel Court; 4 Stafford Street; 13 King Street; 153 Piccadilly
Dates 1859-1897
Notes
George Smith established his business at 40 Davies Street in 1859. In 1863/3 he made gun No. 286 which is in the Royal collection. In 1866 he moved to 16 Davies Street and in 1867 to 104 New Bond Street. In 1869 he moved to 82 New Bond Street, but in 1870 he moved to 10 Davies Street. In 1871 he moved to 253 Oxford Street, and in 1874 he was recorded at 3 Park Lane. In 1885 he was at 110 Mount Street and in 1888 at 3 Angel Court, King Street. In 1891 he was at 4 Stafford Street and in 1896 at 13 King Street. In 1897 the name of the firm was changed to George Smith & Co, and he was recorded at 153 Piccadilly but closed later in 1897.

George Smith must have been a maker of best quality guns but he seems to have taken on property leases probably inexpensive because they had a short time to run. No other gun maker in the whole of the England occupied so many premises, 12 in less than 40 years.

Tim

I have had a really bad day and so finally nailing down this maker has birghtened my mood considerably! Thankyou very much for finding this information for me its very interesting.

While certainly not a best gun, the lock inletting is of very high quality compared to other back actions i have in my small collection. And the engraving is good coverage and was probably very nice in its day; as i mentioned before sadly now worn. Since he set up in 1859 and number 286 was 1863 i would imagine number 110 / 113 is a very early gun of his.

Damascus - Interesting piece, i have a back action hammer gun by ebral of shrewsbery, it is very barrel heavy, twist damascus ( just relaid the ribs and re browning ) one bore marked choked. I have come to the conclusion that it to was probably used a a duck or goose gun. Yours is a lovely gun that stock is beautifull honey/black marble. I have seen other guns come up in auctions with the similar hammers to that with that bulbous appearance and they have been described as replacements; perhaps those are non original any ideas?

Pictures of the other pinfire i have can be seen here ( just for your own interest ) http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381012&page=2

Deamon I bid for the gun some thirty five years ago at a farm winding up sale near Whitchurch which is not far from Shrewsbury, included with the gun were a couple of boxes of pinfire black powder cartridges they all went up in smoke not long after I purchased the gun enjoyable all the same, I wish knew then what I know now they were a very valuable commodity. Somehow the point of the stocks comb looked as if it had been intentionally damaged how or why I have no idea but I am sure it lowered the price, in the photograph you can see the timber that has been let in though in normal lighting it is not half as noticeable. As for the hammers I do feel that they are original and not replacement castings because they fit so well and the engraving has been done by the same hand. Also I can’t see the owner paying good money to have such a pair of ugly duckling hammers as aftermarket replacements but you never know!!!

I see your point, on second thoughts, modern casting methods have only recently been able to cast in engraving to any degree, so unless the replacement was recent i would have to agree, that they are likely original.

Perhaps later on in the season i might put one of my pinfires on ticket, i have a pipe dream of the spaniel putting up a pheasant and dropping it with the pinfire. Pipe dream because it relies on myself, the pinfire, and the spaniel to work together.

If i put it on ticket i would likely alter the barrels to accept a modern rimmed cartridge just to make it easier to load for. Best method i have heard of doing it is to alter the barrels to accept a modern rim, punch the primer out of a modern shell. counter sink the brass so a spent .22 casing can be super glued in. Then drill a hole through for the pin. Then you can place your percussion cap in the spent .22 casing and arange your pin to contact. Its not the most straight forward but it does create a cartridge that you can re load multiple times.

Kranks is not so far from me but i would rather not be at the mercy of £6 a piece for some brass.

The way around the antique pin-fire conundrum is not to actually own it. Give it the wife and then borrow it when you want to use it. So long as you have your shotgun certificate you are covered and so long as you hand it back within the 72 hour deadline. I've put that question to one or two and no one can see anything illegal in the exercise. Might be worth running it past BASC and see what their take is on the idea.

Making pin-fire cartridges is covered in Geoffrey Boothroyd's book The Shotgun. History and Development pages 181-3. The idea was from a late friend Derek Fearn of Catton Gunsmiths. Access to a lathe to make the percussion cap inserts which then fit into a regular plastic cartridge case. He used to use compression formed Winchester cases with the heads peeled off. Lagopus.....

I have a really good local FEO; infact as far as i know we are really lucky to have a really knowlegdeable and understanding firearms dept here so i will run it by them and also BASC. ( if i do i'll post their verdict on here )

In theory there is NO reason i can see why your idea would be illegal. Its setting the premise that the owner owns it under the section 58 exemption and it has been lent to you as an SGC holder to use, for less than 72 hours so it doesnt need to be formally written on to your ticket.

Spot on. I don't think they will like the idea though. Still, we don't make the laws; just comply with them. Lagopus.....

You are probably right!

I'm quite a fan of the way the law works in the UK. Americans would never understand it but they are on an entirely different socio-political continent.

Demonwolf444,
Would you please expand on what it is about UK gun laws that makes you a "fan?"

I say I'm a "fan" by which i mean that i think the current system has value to the public and to the sportsman.

In the UK i think it stikes a balance between public safety ( by which i mean it goes some way to preventing people with serious mental conditions or ciminal tendancies from easily obtaining a firearm, i am fully aware that serious ciminals have access to firearms regardless of the law ) without affecting the interests of those who have legitimate interest in shooting sports and associated hobbies.

Feeling towards gun owenership laws are pretty diverse and it can be a touchy subject for some people so its a discussion i tend to avoid.

This being said i am always concious of how the current system could be open to abuse, and will always be against any proposed changes to the system if changes are sought to be made which offer no benefit to the sportsman or public safety.

I should hope this makes my view clear, it is a personal view, i know other poeple's views differ, and that issues do arise with the system.

It was perhaps unfair for me to outright dismiss and say "americans would never understand it" thats me making my own generalisation; that many americans see gun ownership first and formostly for self defence, which is an ideaology that is not accepted in the UK as a good reason to own a gun under the current system. Its just because we are often approaching the same subject from two angles.

Demonwolf, that was a lucid and thoughtful answer to the question posed to you. There are indeed distinct differences in our ideologies as well as our laws. Yours work for you and ours work for us...Geo

To the benefit that thousands of miles seperate individuals on this forum; but still we can enjoy a shared appreciation of tradition, heritage, fine craftsmanship and good company I think.