take a look around the net...these fine guns are not selling. they are in fact dogs on the market...how come?

(no insult to my favorite creatures intended)...

Cost versus function versus weight

No screw in chokes for the young folks

Not steel shot friendly

An example from this FINE seller

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=450256079

Maybe it's the LOUSY inspection/return policy.

Because they are the most common Fox made and most folks who want Foxes only want small bores or 12 gauges in ultra fantastic condition. IMO unless they are in great condition they are $500 dollar guns unless they have 32" barrels.

just like LC Smith 00/field, Parker Trojan, Ithaca Field, to get $750 they have to be real nice....and pretty close to original.

"Right" guns at the "right" price sell. Guns with "issues" are hard to sell at any price. Don't care if it is an 870 or a Sterlingworth. There were something like 96000 12-gauge Sterlingworths made. A potential buyer can certainly wait for a "right" gun to come up for sale. Within the last two weeks I paid nearly double what I've ever paid before for a minty example of a 12-gauge Fox-Sterlingworth variation I've long wanted.

I have bought two 12 ga. Sterlingworths ejector guns for 500 or less off the internet in the last two months for future project guns. One gun had the short filler rib under the barrels that fits between the chambers and the loop lose. It took two hours to fix it as good as new.

When ejector guns are not bringing much, a plain extractor gun is just not going to sell at all unless dirt cheap. In the last few months I have seen Sterlingworth's sell for less than 500 on multiple occasions. Even a few 20's have been bought for less than a grand in very decent shape and that would never happen last year. I think low grade, non pristine guns, like Sterlingworths are a very soft market right now.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=444988822

That was a Sterlingworth 12 Ejector that was very well restocked and was a bargain at 1600. Did not even get a single bid. The stock job alone was will worth that. Soft market for sure.

Like most 12 gauge double guns they are pretty common and generally under appreciated by the majority of shooters. Although I own a few nice 12 gauge gun I haven't fired a 12 gauge in years opting for 16 gauge which suits my upland and clay target shooting needs perfectly.

I liken the Fox SW 12g market to be very similar to the LC field grade 12g market. A lot of guns out there. Very common and hard to get a lot of money for unless they are very high condition.

Quality high condition guns will always sell. Common Hunter quality ones or ones with issues will sit unless they are cheap.

well, i been dealing in mostly $500 to $1500 hunter quality guns for about 30 years now...

i have never seen the market for hunting guns this bad. 2007 was the last good year...every year there after seems like it is worse than the previous year...

it may be a supply and demand issue. the supply of classic field grade hunting guns is fixed. so that must mean that the demand has dropped off?

I rarely find myself very interest in the 12 gauges I see. One reason is the weight of carrying the things around in the field. I think I own 6. My grandfather's Remington 59, a Winchester SX2, a Benelli Ultra light, two Parker 12's - a VH 28" and GH 30" that are both 1 frames, and an early Fox A grade that is a project gun.

I wouldn't use the Winchester for anything other than standing in a duck blind. It's heavy and recoil operated. Swallows 3-1/2" shells and swings nicely. The Benelli is nice because it weighs 6.1 lbs.

I bought both Parkers on Gunbroker within the last year. Both were right at $500 each. The price was what motivated me to grab the Parkers.

I paid $1300 for my Fox Sterlingworth 20ga last year. Every month I wonder if I bought it too soon.

good news, is that this year, some sporting clays shooters are turning to the classic sxs"s for something different. this has caused a slight increase in demand for graded 12 gauge guns...this movement is noticeably coming out of the south, as far west as texas.

and years ago, there used to be a healthy competition between sxs muzzle loader shooters in arkansas and missouri...any of you boys out there still active?

the demand for field grade hunting guns is being met with new guns...none of the young folks have any real interest in this old crap...unless this changes, as us old timers die off the high end market will take a dive also......

I think the pool of shooter that think blued steel, walnut and two triggers is what a hunting gun should look like is fast dwindling.

When I show up at the boat landing with my old sxs most think I'm some kind of nut and doubt I can kill anything with those two fat barrels out there and trying to navigate two triggers, and it gets even worst when they see I have to cock the hammers and have only two shots.

The young generation looks at hunting with a sxs as a sever handicap and the only measure of a successful hunt down is the number of birds and not the experience getting the birds.

It is a supply and demand problems at it's simplest form. The supply of old guys buying doubles to hunt with, shoot or collect is drying up. Several mid to major collectors I know are done or worse have passed away. Dead men buy no guns. The number of double guns to choose from is increasing as old guys sell off their stuff. This combination of too few and too many is keeping prices depressed and will do so for the foreseeable future.

And it is not just doubles that are hard to sell. Pump guns, other than a few select ones, are dogs on a gun rack these days. You can sell high condition Model 42, 12 and some of the 37's but the vast number of well used guns are just impossible to sell in most shops. If not in great condition my favorite gun shop will not even accept them on consignment. They might as well be bolt action shotguns these days, and you can just imagine how easy those are to sell.

And there is no hope for the younger shooters suddenly becoming a major force in the market. Young people are more into black guns, semi-automatics and camo than doubles. The non-tox shot forces them to buy those guns even more so as three bucks a shell is too expensive for most hunters. The need to change chokes for different game or games make the screw-in choke tube guns a way to go for many. Hunting is getting to be prohibitive expensive for most. And I think the taste fir wild game is in much decline.

So it has become a real buyers market. Figure out what you want and it is out there at your price if you look long and far enough. I do not even worry anymore about missing a bargain gun because there will be another one along soon enough. Rare and extremely high grade or high condition guns will sell for a premium but run of the mill stuff will not and junk will become just about impossible to sell. Supply and demand working for and against us depending on your perspective.

ky jon: you said alot...all true...

perhaps, one day, like vintage cars, vintage hunting guns will become popular with the young and affluent..."this old gun, is just like the one my dad had", could be the new in thing...one day?

yea...but with most of the classic doubles it would have to be just like my grandfather/great grandfather had....+ its getting harder and harder to find/afford a smith to work on these hand fitted guns....

I have quit buying shotguns for resale at shows unless they're dirt cheap. They have become increasingly hard to sell even when priced reasonably and I've had some at shows that no one even bothered to pick up and look over.
The only big use for shotguns in Arizona is for Quail hunting and I agree that most hunters favor smaller gauges today.
I've had a super nice Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade that's cased at the past two shows that has been looked at a lot but I've received no offers for it and I have it resonably priced.
I don't know if the shotgun market will ever turn around but I for one am not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.
Jim

The lore of hunting with old side x sides is, in my opinion, an attempt to return to simpler days. For those of us who use these guns it is rarely a question of how much a gun costs, but rather one of the enjoyment we derive from being afield with a gun with some nostalgia behind it.
Every time I hear about soft markets, or old doubles not bringing what they should, it is usually voiced by people who do not buy these guns for the long term. People who, if they can't buy a gun for pennies on the dollar, figure they are going to be losing money on resale. Well you may be right, but that does not mean the guns are worth less, it means that more and more buyers out there are trying to buy guns to flip.
If I offer a gun for sale it will be sold to the end user, and I would expect that buyer to enjoy the gun for what it is, and the pleasure to be derived from it.
It is a shame that some people have to sell their doubleguns for far less than their actual value, but anyone who places the same value on a classic side x side versus a modern pumpgun should be buying pumpguns.
Let the angry responses begin.

Ky Jon hit the nail on the head in my opinion. I am 73 and need to thin out my old smallbore side by sides. Bobby

Younger working people with money to spend are buying Beretta, Benelli, Browning self-loaders or modern vertical guns from Beretta, Browining,...... Sadly every year number of those looking for classic sxs is shrinking. Tony Wilcox told that to guy toting graded Parker few years ago. The kiss of death will be use of non-toxic shot for all upland game. There is no reason soft non-tox shot is going to cost much less than $4 per cartridge. For cost of 4 shells one can get whole box of quality upland steel loads.

i do hope the nostalgia clay bird shooters continue to increase in numbers...and that the sporting clays facility owners continue to promote classic sxs only shooting events, such as does hidden hollow in pa and m&m in nj...

in fact it would be a wonderful thing if this forum could become a registry for upcoming sxs only shooting events...with its own sub forum taking the place of doublegun FAO?

and then there is this:

http://shotgunreport.com/2013/02/19/why-not-the-sxs-for-clay-targets/

I am going the other direction. I dont know if I am considered young at 34 but I sold almost all my vertical guns and only have one plastic gun. Everything else is now classic sxs's. I dont see this ever changing. Not many my age shooting sxs's but I have sold a couple to friends at losses to get them shooting and interested in sxs's.

I am trying to help you out Bobby but I have to sell in order to buy now and I am having a hard time doing that.

rob: good job...we need more missionaries like you. and 34 is still very young, especially to us over 70...

here is an article i recently found that may be helpful to you and your friends as they develop an interest in sxs's.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/buying-side-by-side-shotguns-right-25-tips/

X100
some of these shady kitchen table FFL's like "the torched one" in Francistown NH chickens are finally coming home to roost !

I have a 80% condition- using the Fjestad Blue Book guidelines- 1927 Meridan mfg. Parker Trojan- 12 gauge 28" barrels- so just for the hell of it- I went to my copy of the Blue Book and checked out the following: page 771 Fox Sterlingworth in 80% at $875, an Ithaca NID at $500, an L.C. Smith post-1913 Field Grade at $1200 and the Parker Trojan at $3000- Any comments? "What's in a name?" Parker Brothers, Rolls-Royce, Rolex, Steinway, Mercedes-Benz, and the list goes on!!

I paid $800 for my $500 12ga. Sterlingworth a number of years ago when people like me had money to spend.

Since it's now so worthless, certainly the modification police will no longer mind that the #2 30" barrels now have 2 3/4" chambers, the cones are 4" long, and the chokes are now .005 and .015. Mr. Danner rust blued the barrels and they look like new. The project is stuck at the stock refinishing stage, due to lack of ambition and/or funds. It works just fine as is.

I spent today shooting the 7.25 pound overweight pig at skeet and trap just to see if it's as big a POS as some of you folks seem to think it is.

My 7/8oz. load of #9 at 1120 fps only netted me a 95/100 at skeet. I do cheat and use an X wad in the left barrel. The 1oz. load of #9 from the right barrel scored 23/25 at singles trap. I chipped a few, and I did miss two.... but the others blew up like a chinese firework. 1oz. #9 through .005". Apparently, the hard shot and long cones work for this application.

The kids enjoyed seeing the 1926 model Fox do it's thing. I rather enjoyed the day. It's not a competition target gun, but it sure is fun to shoot. I did drop a few pheasants with it back when I first acquired it.

So, is it 'worth' the near $1300 I foolishly have 'into' it? I'm past the point of caring. I prefer now to just enjoy the day, and I have as much fun with a Benelli, an 1100, or a Krieghoff. They all have something to offer and I enjoy still being able to shoot anything off the rack reasonably well.

There will come a time when we can't. All of us. Just enjoy your guns now and forget all the financial and political and demographic crap. In the final analysis, it's only the day shooting that counts.

No quite accurate there Eddie- Brian, obviously a shill for the forum, missed his syntax and proper spelling- he wrote "It is due to there light weight--" when the proper spelling in this context would have been: "their light weight" No spell check would pick up that homonym FUBAR however. I went to the Gunbusters website you seem to favor and checked out your feedback- 16 negative feedback comments out of a rumored 1518 transactions. One is one too many, but then, I use the old Bill Jaqua standard for gun dealers yet today- 3 day inspection and a 100% No Questions Asked for a Full cash refund on any used gun he ever sold, from Day 1 downtown in the town square in Findlay, Ohio. Maybe some day you'll fold your tent up and fade away, like Herschel Chaddick did- We await that event with bated (not baited) breath, amigo!!

"There will come a time when we can't. All of us. Just enjoy your guns now and forget all the financial and political and demographic crap. In the final analysis, it's only the days shooting that counts."

amen to that!

The blue book prices on Parker Trojans and VH grade Parkers are pretty off base I think as well. With the exception of very high condition guns. Since 98% or better guns are very rare, people will pay. But 80% condition guns or even 50% for that matter will never bring on the current market what the blue book states due to just too many being out there. Even PH or GH Damascus guns are. Dry common and hard to get anywhere blue book prices. Fluid steel is closer to blue book prices in these grades due to the fact they are less seen for sale.

the blue book is old news the day it is published. the pricing data is at least a year old. the real value of the blue book is the technical data and specifications it contains. and as the publisher points out, it is only a guide to firearms values.

if you want real time values, do an advanced search on gunbroker and gunauction for auctions completed in the last 90 days. that will give you much more current valuations than any printed matter. in addition, many live and on line auction companies publish sold for values on their web sites. amoskeag, julia and rock island are among the most comprehensive.

Maybe so Ed- but if the Fjestad Blue Book is "Old News"- why are they into their 35th continuous year of publication then- and also, why does Dave our host, feature the 33rd Edition with NRS head Fred Wayne LaPierre's mug shot on the cover- are you saying our Host doesn't believe in it- I do, and so do the gun library guys at Cabela's- at least as a set of co-ordinates for appraisals--

"the real value of the blue book is the technical data and specifications it contains. and as the publisher points out, it is only a guide to firearms values."

Hear, hear!

I'm 44 and started getting into LC's in 2007 or so. In the beginning, I shopped a long, long time for a decent 12g budget shooter and gave $550. Same gun today is probably $350 or less on a "no reserve" GB auction.

On the plus side, I've picked up several small bore guns I couldn't have afforded in the beginning. All came from estates of guys that just passed. They were "one family" guns, but reached the end of the line. Sad really..to me anyway.

What worries me more than anything is that the guns will reach a low point where it pays to take them apart and sell the pieces on ebay. Parts still bring good money.

In my opinion, except for the high grades and high condition examples, prices will continue to fall.

On a side note...I reload hunting shells, including steel (which can easily be loaded under 9k). Because steel wads have come such a long ways in the last decade, I wish someone like Sherman Bell would hand load some low pressure steel shells and open up the chokes on an old gun and do some real research on the results. I believe the right steel load could be utilized in the right gun w/absolutely no long term issues. A modern study like this could go a long way to making our old guns worth something to the next generations.

with regard to shooting steel shot in old guns...

it is my understanding that the steel used for most shotgun barrels made prior to the mid eighties is too soft for use with steel shot. seems like the worry is that the harder steel shot will score the bore. have seen too many old guns with scored bores...have improved wads now eliminated that problem?

as to field grade 12 gauge double guns being disassembled for parts...

given that the market for assembled guns is declining, i dont see a market developing for their parts.

besides, putting together a double gun from parts from other guns is a hit and miss thing; requiring considerable gunsmith skills and lots of luck.

if there is no demand for a gun, then why go thru the effort and expense of creating one?

I'm forced to use steel for much of my upland hunting. My experience is w/loading Steel Powder, SAM1 wads, 1 oz steel, #4 shot, 11.5k, in the 1550-1600 fps range in modern shotguns. None of the recovered tapered wads had any break through or pin holes from the shot. None..and I've looked at lots of them including spent wads from factory shells. With a sensible and reduced load, I would suspect this would remove all practical risk of pin holed wads and scratched bores. So, that leaves pressure, choke constriction, forcing cones, short chambers, and possible bridging of larger shot as the only remaining enemies. All of which could be corrected by a gunsmith and proper reloading.

I bought a $300 beater LC to test out my theory. But, It turned out to be a really nice gun and I haven't had the heart to mess it up.

that is the problem with destructive testing...it is potentially destructive...

as the use of lead shot becomes more and more of an issue, maybe an ammo maker such as rst or polywad will do the testing and load development that will make steel shot a viable alernative for use in most old guns...however, not all old guns have the same barrel steel. what might work in older or field grade smiths might not be suitable for newer or graded smiths, which were made with different barrel steels...and the same applies for other brands as well...

reminds me of the problems some have encountered when reharding shotgun receivers. not all receivers were made from the same alloy, even within the same brand. and when you try to reharden a receiver of brand b, by using the technique that worked on brand a, then you are really getting into dangerous waters, where "there may be dragons", so to speak.

Shortly after the requirement became mandatory that hunters use steel shot waterfowl loads for duck/goose shooting, and given that I was determined to use only vintage side x sides for all my hunting; I conducted my own experiment with steel shot using a vintage Fox gun. The gun was a 1907 vintage A Grade with a set of medium heavy 30" barrels that were not in pristine condition; those barrels were not pitted, but eroded to a "wavy" appearance in a portion of both tubes. So thinking I had nothing to lose, both chambers were opened to 3" (cause even 3" steel shells are light loaded when compared to 3" lead loads); and the chokes were opened to improved cylinder/modified. I fully expected to see longs gouges plowed into the walls of both tubes once the gun was fired; but I never found any evidence that the repeated shooting of steel shot thru those barrels caused any further damage to barrel tubes whatsoever. I certainly wouldn't recommend someone do the same with his gun, and I certainly wouldn't choose that route with a high grade gun or gun having great barrels; but my personal experience with steel shot and this old A Grade A.H. Fox gun was nothing but positive.

A couple of years ago I read an article (can't remember where) written by a ballistics expert working for one of the major shell manufacturers. His statement was that with today's steel loads scoring of the bores is a myth.

"cause even 3" steel shells are light loaded when compared to 3" lead loads"

I can't imagine anything further from the truth, I mean other than listening to Obama.

In part, he's right. 3" steel is normally 1 1/8oz to 1 1/4oz. 3" Lead is typically 1 3/8 oz on up.

However, the speed of factory shot steel shot is usually spiced up in an attempt to make up for the loss of mass. So..there's still recoil. Pressures of lead and steel factory rounds should be under the same limits/standards.

I'm looking at an RSI Reloading Book Volume 8, Number 1. And, it has several loads for 3" hulls and steel under 8K. Multiple loads for 2 3/4" at 7k. All at a more reasonable fps.

Back 'shortly after the requirement became mandatory' he wasn't hand loading steel because there were no components.

PSI is PSI and it matters not what the payload is.

SAAMI max is 11,500 PSI for 3" 12 gauge.

You have no idea what pressure factory shells are loaded to, lead, steel, or anything else unless it's stated.

'Thinking I had nothing to lose'. Taking a 1907 gun out to 3" and feeding it early factory steel is certainly an interesting experiment.

Glad both he and the gun survived... that would have been way outside of my comfort zone.

now here is something to consider:

a decent 12 gauge fox sterlingworth with 30" tubes is worth around $700 these days...

a similar gun, the browning bss, with 30" tubes is worth at least twice as much, if not more...

so, how come? i mean is beefyer wood, a single selective trigger and auto ejectors worth all that much more?

Ed Good,in a curiously masochistic way,delights in proving both his incompetence and lack of ethics on a daily basis on here as he has no place to go after being tossed off every other forum.

Thanks for correcting him with correct information.

very strange behavior...amazing that it is tolerated here...

Ed, amigo mio, we are fortunate to have Dave Weber as our host--He even allows you to "peddle your well-toasted wares herein" to the unwary. One reason (among many) why I have never taken a run at any of your overpriced shotguns you have listed here, is that like most all foxes, I tend to be very wary-- Caveat Emptor is the watchword, 24/7/365!!

More like "burnt offerings", Foxy.

at least there is some humor here...better than the downer posts usually forthcoming from these jackels.

but again, they are trashing this fine forum...what a shame...oh well, i aint the moderator...so why should i care? cept it is sad to see something that could be so good become so bad, because of a few malcontents, who are allowed to run off at the mouth here with no apparent standards or controls.

Eds sad attmept with this thread to "troll" for victims (he calls them customers) for his tarted up POS guns has once again gone bad and proves yet again that not a day goes by without Ed proving both his incompetence and lack of ethics,no wonder is business is in the crapper !
You lost again Ed no one bought your over priced SW on here and never will buy from you !

and who said "one bad apple spoils the bushel" ?

i think that was me.

"Back 'shortly after the requirement became mandatory' he wasn't hand loading steel because there were no components.
PSI is PSI and it matters not what the payload is.
SAAMI max is 11,500 PSI for 3" 12 gauge.
You have no idea what pressure factory shells are loaded to, lead, steel, or anything else unless it's stated.
'Thinking I had nothing to lose'. Taking a 1907 gun out to 3" and feeding it early factory steel is certainly an interesting experiment.
Glad both he and the gun survived... that would have been way outside of my comfort zone."


My reference to steel shot shells being light loaded was indeed a reference to the weight of the payload. I still have 3" lead loaded "magnum" shells from that period with 1 7/8 oz payloads (and recall 2 oz loads as being available also), while the heaviest 3" steel shot loads obtainable at that time were 1 3/8 oz (which load I was shooting). What I recall was that 3" magnum lead loads delivered punishing recoil, while recoil from those 3" steel loads seemed to be more or less equivalent to normal skeet loads. I don't recall shell pressures being published, but fully realized that shell manufacturers deliberately maximized velocities to compensate for the fact that lighter steel shot pellets shed velocity much faster than the same size lead pellet. And although I did shoot thousands of hand loads in those days (to include my Damascus guns), I was oblivious to pressure concerns; and don't recall period loading manuals publishing pressures, only velocities. We obviously have vast amounts more knowledge and data these days, and have further benefited mightily thru the ability to share data and experiences on forums such as the double gun shop; but this venue and the web were non-existent when steel shot was first forced upon us shooters. As to this particular Fox gun, it locked as tight as the proverbial bank vault, and there was more than sufficient wall thickness to handle the lengthened chambers (Buck Hamlin checked wall thickness and lengthened chambers); had this gun and barrels been otherwise, I would not have risked my fingers. Although I strongly suspect many posters to this forum have conducted myriad experiments themselves, the steel shot experiment described above (as well as other ideas I've tinkered with in years past) was my personal version of "finding out for myself"; and I'll never say anything other than mine was a very favorable result. But I also clearly stated in my original post that "I certainly wouldn't recommend someone do the same with his gun", or take any unnecessary risks; for with the volumes of excellent information and resources available nowadays, there's simply no need.

Wrong-o again, Ed. It was said by Johnny Appleseed himself--

no bobby you need more, it keeps you young gives you something to clean.Mark

just read the thread on the creation of a custom slug gun, made out of a classic fox sterlingworth shotgun...

is that the future now? dolling up classic affordable hunting guns into rich man's custom toys?

i hope not.

i mean, would it have not been a better idea to preserve the old fox and use the barrels from another fox gun, perhaps one salvaged from a botched rehardening job, (lots of those around); fit the salvaged set of barrels (fairly easy), to the good action and then go on from there to make the slug gun. that way, one would have a two barrel set. one made from a preseved gun and one made from salvaged parts of a gun whose action was destroyed by unskilled hands. as it is now, that old fox is now gone forever...too bad.

kinda like taken a '34 ford coupe an chopin and channelin it and puttin in a corvette motor...looks really cool, but it aint a 1934 ford coupe any more.

I wouldn't expect you to have any understanding of appreciation for Dewey's work on that Fox. Past statements of yours on the Parker forum made it clear you have no appreciation of respect for the work of fine craftsmen.

And to refresh you memory, that was a when you said it was "unethical" for craftsman to charge more than YOU were willing to pay.

dudley: the workmanship displayed appears to be outstanding. just sad to me that that old fox is gone forever...

and what someone charges for their work is none of yours or my business. the seller of his time and the market determines that.

why you have decided to embark on the attack mode here, i know not...just keep in mind that two can play that silly game...but i will not do it here, as it is supposed to be against the rules of this forum. if you wana joist, come on down to the chess pool of misfires, where such nonsense is permitted on a regular basis.

And B Dudley could please tell us if Ed Good is still welcome at that forum or is that one of the long list of ones he has been banned from ?

Yup. You got it. He got tossed for openly and very rudely mocking another member.

dudley: wana play? see you down below...

Lets see I bet Ed Good holds the record for getting banned from gun forums,and now he is trying moderate this one !

an dudley, i will say this to you...at least you are man enough to come on this forum and post under your real name and not with some phony id like so many others here, who often post such outrageous and vile words.

an a word of advise, be careful who you associate yourself with here, least ye be remembered as a friend and supporter of cowards...

also, never make enemies on purpose, as it will never do you any good.

So Ed,

are you saying you don't hold the record for being banned from gun forums ? Are you claiming you were not banned from the Parker forum ?How many time outs here Eddy ? hmmm

..."least ye be remembered as a friend and supporter of cowards"...

That sure sounds like Eddy !
well at least he didn't threaten to sue a bunch of members over there like he has done here-did he ever tell you the story if his friend the judge who would help him sue people ?