Checking into the CSM RBL 12ga, Sporting Clays competition SxS. I would appreciate any comments / experience with the gun. In particular, I'm interested to know how well the gun holds up to hundreds of practice rounds per week?

Also, note SKB is coming out with a competition SxS. The model 200 HR Target?

Thanks,

Do you already own one? Do you really want other's opinions? Here's mine. These guns are okay. There have been some issues with RBLs holding up under heavy shooting. Not all of them, but more than I would have expected. I go to a lot of sxs shoots in the Midwest and see a few RBLs, but have never seen a Sporting model. A friend has a 32" 12 gauge for water fowling. It is HUGE!!! His goes over 9# and is quite muzzle heavy. In my way of thinking the CSMC Sporting model is the antithesis of a fun to shoot sxs. It's heavy, has a high ventilated rib and, god forbid, an adjustable comb. You see very, very few guns so configured among sxs shooters. Most SxS shoots don't have long targets where a big, heavy gun is an aid to good shooting. These guns go for $7k and up. For that much money you can buy a Winchester 21 and have a classic that will stand up to heavy shooting and handle better than the CSMC. Another American Classic that will eat recoil, stand up to a lot of shooting and handle well is a Fox.

This is my 30" AE with a new butt stock that is less than half of a CSMC. My 32" L.C. Long Range is set up to shoot big targets. With a glass bedded stock head it can take a bit of shooting and I have thousands and thousands of rounds through it.

If you want the ultimate classy big target SxS get an English pigeon or waterfowl gun. If you must have a big, new gun that you can shoot the bejesus out of buy a Perazzi DC12. I recently got to handle a 32" 12 gauge and it is, without question, the ultimate big sxs target gun as it has that fabulous Perazzi feel. It handles and moves like it weighs a pound less than it does. And their reputation for durability is legend. There are only 15,000 reasons preventing me from owning one. I hope you enjoy whatever you get and you shoot it a lot.
Oh, I would not want to depend on a Turkish gun like the SKB for lots of shooting. Been there, done that.
Regards
Jeff

I will have to agree with JNW. I looked at the Sporting Clays RBL a couple years ago and I could never get to liking the vent rib and adjustable stock, and it is heavy. I have some experience with RBLs and I like them, I just did not care for that model. The recommendation on a British waterfowler is good advice. I found a 30" Jeffrey BLNE with heavy proofs in excellent condition for less than half the RBL Sporting model. Double triggers and fixed chokes, but I can just as easily miss with a single trigger and variable chokes so its all good. However, if I had the coin I'd get the DC12 hands down.

CSMC also makes Model 21's and Fox's but the Fox is not available in 12 gauge.
A custom CSMC Model 21 would be my choice after the Perazzi DC12.
I have hefted the CSMC RBL Clays Model and it's a handful, just looks ungainly to me.
For SXS Clays events, the Perazzi seems just the thing. Would make a nice goose gun if it could shoot non-toxic shot!
I did not know Perazzi made this gun. Now I have another gun to lust over.
I had a Winchester Model 21 32" 12 gauge sold to me as a Trap but the forearm was shorter than standard trap and I believe it was a Live Pigeon gun. Great gun, Monte Carlo, shadow line cheekpiece.
For the money you will spend, get a custom gun you like.-Dick

16GS,

Let me say up front I have never owned an RBL, and have no bone to pick with CSMC at all, but here are my experiences being around them. Twice I have been squadded with men shooting almost new RBLs in S x S competition. The first time was at the 2010 US Open at Tunica MS. I was squaded with Leighton Stallones, a member of this board. We were also squadded with a gentleman shooting a RBL, with a single trigger. He had trigger problems the whole round. Once since then I have been squaded with someone using a RBL with a single trigger. It failed the shooter as well, repeatedly during a round of 100 clays.

I have used a Browning BSS for many years for S x S competition, a 30" barreled model without barrel selector. The right barrel was .018", and I had the left barrel choke reamed out to the same constriction, reasoning that if I could not select chokes I needed the same in both barrels. I have never been disappointed in this gun, in competition or in the duck swamps. It is highly suited to high volume, easily shootable with it's beavertail forend and pistol grip, and can be bought for $1200-1500 most anytime. The BSS single trigger is deadly reliable. I have never heard of anyone having had trigger troubles with the BSS. I am sure it has occurred, as any mechanical device can break down, but never to my knowledge.

If I had the bucks to spare, I might try a Perazzi, as I shoot a MX8 in registered NSCA competition, but the BSS is the best bang for the competition S x S buck around. Tested and proven.

SRH

Stan,
My mistake for not mentioning the BSS. They are great guns. Really blew it a few years ago when I passed on an early 2 trigger extractor Miroku with 30" barrels. Quite a bit lighter than a BSS and it had leaf springs with excellent trigger pulls. The BSS does not have the cache of some other guns, but they are excellent shooters. If they made a 30" 20 gauge BSS today they would sell truckloads of them. The BSS is as dependable as they come.
Regards
Jeff

All 12 ga Perazzi interchangeable choke tubes have been steel shot compatible for a number of years. Don't know about current production fixed choke versions.

It's opinion and everybody has one. Here is mine.

Have handled the Perazzi SxS clays gun. No doubt it would be a good shooter, however it's clunky just like competition clays O/U guns. That's good for hitting targets but not why I Shoot SxS guns. Max hits I use my clunky O/U shotgun. Assume the other new clays SxS guns are the same way. Have seen the SKB on a gun rack, same thing no attraction.

High volume shooting Parker's never let me down. Any competition with time and money invested, fees travel etc, carry two guns in case of problems. Two Parker's cost less than the new SxS guns. Pair of model 21s same, less than one new SxS. You can run them two different barrel length and chokes to cover any course.

Boats

Please Excuse my lack of shotgun experience compared to others on this forum as I have been bird hunting and shooting competitive sporting clays for only 20 years.

But I'd have to say that the quote above is the first time I've ever heard anybody describe a Perazzi o/u as being "clunky".


Vernal

If you're shooting 100's of practice rounds per week, sounds like you're looking for a gun for more than just sxs shoots. In which case I'd agree with Stan that a BSS with 30" barrels would be a good choice if you don't want to spend a lot of money--although the 30" 12's can be hard to find.

Another possibility in the same price range would be an Ithaca SKB Model 100 Magnum. They aren't all that common either, but they came with 30" barrels and a factory recoil pad, chambered 3" rather than 2 3/4" which was standard on all the rest of the 12ga Ithaca SKB's.

And if you want to spend more--but not as much as a new RBL Sporting--you could look around for a Parker Reproduction Sporting Clays. Not a lot of them around. Came with factory choke tubes.

Clunky? Boats, I don't think you have ever handled, much less shot, a Perazzi of any kind. Some people find a 32" Perazzi that weighs 8# too fast for them. These guns are anything but clunky. I shoot a 34" with a 16" LOP and when people try my gun they are amazed at how well it moves. If you want to feel clunky and muzzle heavy handle a Browning 525 with 32" barrels. The Perazzi sxs, while no lightweight, is as smooth as a big gun comes. Are they a 6lb 12oz English game gun? No. But if you want to pound all kinds of targets they are the ne plus ultra.
Regards,
Jeff

Perazzi's are fine guns, Several friends of mine shoot them and have used them more than once. They are slim compared to Brownings I will admit. Put put my Beretta 687 any of the target O/U's in a rack next to American SxS's like Parker LC Smith Model 21 they are big and to my eye Clunky Thats a good thing for a target gun not what I am looking for in a nice SxS for informal or formal SxS competiton. SKB seems to be following the same plan. SxS with all the modern features.

Perazzi SxS I saw in person had the same palm swell large forearm and buttstock as their O/U guns. It was not pretty. In the SxS ad's Perazzi shows a straight stock splinter forearm gun that looks nice, but have not seen that gun in person. Action is slim no reason it could not be well stocked, but it was not.

If somebody wanted to have the ultimate target SxS Perazzi is probably it, but what's the point? Not looking for the ultimate target gun for SxS Clays. It does have to work well and the vintage SxS's can do the job. Light English game gun not a good choice. American Vintage guns have the barrel length and weigh about the same as O/U target guns if you get the right one.


Poster asked for opinions and that's mine.

Boats

A Stevens 311 is clunky. So is the first generation Ruger Red Label, though not quite to the same extent. A Browning superposed is not clunky. A Perazzi MX or the new DC12 is not clunky, nor Beretta's of any stripe.

A fellow clayshooter friend once had a 9 lb. 32" Kolar that was one of the most balanced, dynamic guns I've ever shot. It wasn't clunky either.

It's all mostly subjective, but some things are fact, whether you believe it or not.
JR

I would second the recommendation on a Brit BLE/BLNE waterfowl sxs as a good candidate for SCs. They aren't common but can be found and will cost less and represent a better value thant the RBL SCs gun (IMHO). I have owned several subgauge RBLs and enjoyed shooting them but dollar for dollar for this use, I think a British waterfowler is the better gun. The only potential issues may be DTs and typically tight fixed chokes, but the former a plus from my perspective and the latter can be managed by carrying some Fiochi or RST spreader shells in your range bag.

I bought a Gallyon waterfowler for this purpose, which is off being restocked by Dennis Smith. He is adding an understated BTFE. I hope to have it in the next couple months and am very eager to take it around Addieville when it arrives.

This thread is useless without pitchers.....



Big Ann is 88 years old and hasn't gone up against any RBL divas, but she's fired over 65,000 rounds of 1 ounce loads, including a bunch of Rem Nitro 27's, and has received a few accolades. Still tight, but the toplever just moved to 6:31 this year. Probably last my lifetime now without a rejoint.

32" SW's can still be had for <$1200 and a superb restock to the owner's specs would bring the total to <$4K easily.

This one weighs 8.25 lbs but anywhere from 8-9 is doable, especially if you can find one with #1 barrels to start.

Lots of opinions and nay-sayers, but not one word from anyone who actually owns and shoots an RBL Sporting Edition. Guess they are out on the ranges actually shooting!!

Admit to being off topic with the O/U's however having handled the Perazzi DC 12 SxS seen the SKB SxS Clays gun in person and looked at photos of the CSM Sporting with adjustable comb & bevertail.

Pretty they are not.

Boats

Jeff, is spot -on.
I too shoot a Paz 34" at 15.5 LOP and it is as nimble as could be.
I let guys shoot it at the skeet field and they are amazed when I tell them it's a 34 after they shoot a round.

I personally would not like the Sporting version of the RBL. I have found later than I should have it is more enjoyable shooting a field style gun at Sporting Clays.
I regularly shoot with a group of elder gentlemen who shoot mostly side by sides. One shoots a 1909 Purdey, one shoots a Purdey hammer gun and one may shoot a Woodward or a Boss.
I occasionally shoot my two English guns as well. Never use the heavy loads but mostly the B&P Comp 1 in 7/8 ounce.
Much more enjoyable to shoot a field style game gun than a supped up sporting clay monster.
Now I would like to add a couple of choices to the list,
Beretta's new 486 in a 30" version. They are getting great reviews over in the Driven shooting world of the UK.
There is also a Winchester Heavy Duck with 30" tubes and much easier to find than a Browning with the same barrels.
Also a real nice sleeper that can be found is the POLI. You can find them with 30" tubes and they were made to shoot clays. The ones I have handled feel GREAT! No ejectors though but who needs them.
All of these can be had for less than a RBL. And will probably be easier to sell at a later date.
Just my thought.

I have two RBL 12's. One is a light frame 30", btfe, pg, single trigger, with the low vent rib, with very nice American Walnut. It's about 7 1/2 lbs and is murder in a dove field and not bad on the SC courses. I shot a 90 in a local tournament with it last year.

The other is a 32" heavy frame with the same identical specs that I bought in April of this year. Its a good bit more weight-forward biased, weighs about 8 1/2- 8 3/4 lbs, but it is a great SC gun. If I hadn't let the silly pond shot at the Spring Southern SxS get to me, I would have probably won HOA with it. Has a fabulous piece of wood on it, better than the the light frame gun.
JR

I agree on this. I have tricked out SxS's for the SxS shoots, but I've found I most enjoy a field gun with light loads. Same gun(s) I carry in the fall.

If it's for practice or fun and giggles. sure, but if it's competition, well....
JR

Yes, practice with my field SxS's for hunting in the fall. The SxS shoots around here are all about fun and giggles. I wouldn't want it any other way. Your mileage may vary.

We're having our Miss. State SC Championship this weekend. I'm signed up for the SxS event. I want to win it. Capish?
JR

30" barrels, 7 1/2 pounds = light? I guess it depends on one's definition of heavy. I think of NFL linebackers as heavy, but they're light in comparison to offensive linemen. I have an NID 1E with 30" barrels that weighs around 7 1/2. That's by far the heaviest gun I own, or ever intend to own.

Most of the big sxs shoots are really more about shooting sxs, looking at sxs, meeting fellow sxs shooters etc than they are about competition.

I'm not a competitive shooter. And yeah, we all know there's a difference in shooting sporting clays for fun vs. competition. But when the OP asks who has experience with a gun made and marketed specifically for shooting sporting clays, it seems to me the intended use is probably competition.

Still cringed at "capish" though.

Jay

I only shoot for fun and giggles. The more targets I break the more I giggle. I've never met anyone who was shooting well and not having fun.

My introduction to the .410 was with a 25" barreled Win 23. Breaking less than half the targets I'd paid for was never fun. After a few months of that, I've never been tempted to try the cartridge again.

Pretty sad, I agree.

Unh uh, we use that word a whole lot down here.
JR

Capish= Know what I mean....Know what I'm saying? around here

Good luck John in your SXS event!!

OK, got it. I capish!

Good luck, I just found I score higher with a well-fitted field gun...flat filed-slightyly raised rib, touch of weight forward and makes the difference for me. Just basically affirming PALUNC's thoughts and not making a suggestion.

To reaffirm what I was getting at is just look at the scores at the Side by Side tournaments that are shot with vintage side by sides. I had a friend year before last shoot a 48 out of 50 using a 1880 Boss 20 bore hammer gun at the Southern Side by Side event. I would think that is pretty damn good shooting.
Now I suppose if you are a dedicated Sporting Clays shooter and want to use a side by side to shoot events then maybe a 8 plus pound gun may be fine. Just thinking about re-sale value as well. A lot easier to sell a field gun than one with a adjustable comb, high ventilated rib, choke tubes sticking out of the front.
I once shot Helice at my Gun Club and there was a guy there who was shooting a Model 21. It had extended tubes and the barrels were ported. Now that was a terrible thing to look at.
But what I see on a weekly basis is a light field side by side shooting 7/8 ounce loads in 7 1/2 will break all the targets as long as you do the job of putting the barrels in the right place.

The meaning of the word is well understood. Understand?

Jay

I can only speak for the tourney's in my area, but most SXS events are pretty soft targets shot on the same courses as the sub guage- Super Sporting. High 90's scores are pretty common. It's all fun...though. Know what I'm sayin?

In the 12 years of the Great North East SxS Classic, scores over 90% have been uncommon.

I believe the 2014 main event was won with 85%.
Each of the 6 side events by gauge were won with 86% or less.
I know this because the shooters actually carry scorecards.
There is no requirement that they be used or turned in, though.

I doubt the Bo-Whoop event has ever been won with a "light game" gun, though the purse money can be won with a SxS of any vintage and/or manufacturer.

It's good that there's something for everyone. The shooters compelled to win something can be happy along with the rest of us who just want to improve with our hunting SxS's. All good.

I've owned every RBL except the twelve gauge. My rule of thumb with them is: "The smaller the gauge, the better the gun."
The only two I've kept are a 20 gauge with I like very much and a 28 gauge which I love.
The two 16 gauge guns I owned were beastly...overweight and bulky. That's quite a combination. The few 12 gauge guns I've handled have had the same problems.

http://www.winscoreonline.com/view_resul...mp;class_id=All

JR

Link won't open….

OK, now I see it. Congratulations!

The Digweed of MO!

Thanks Dave, you meant MS I'm sure. The guy who won HOA is an E-class shooter who was shooting one of the new Perazzi DC12's. Several shooters who had shot the gun said it had amazing dynamics. I was hoping to catch up with him and perhaps shoot it a little but never got the chance.
JR

Apologies for following this post further off the 12 ga. sporting clays gun topic. But I think it's worth clarifying that there's a lot of variation in the configuration of RBL 16s.

The 16 ga. frame is compact, and the standard 29" barrels on mine weigh just 2 lb. 12 oz. The hefty interchangeable pad system puts several ounces of extra weight on the standard RBL 16. Add a beavertail and pistol grip and you may have yourself a beastly and bulky gun.

The RBL 16 stocks are thicker than they need to be, but CSMC reduced their weight somewhat on guns ordered without the pad system by routinely boring out a buttstock cavity. I wanted more than the standard LOP on mine, and the buttpad I had them install instead of the basic buttplate added some weight. It's not particularly light at 6 lb. 10 oz. (with straight grip and splinter forend) but it's a very nice carrying and handling gun.

I recall a poster on an older thread reported his RBL 16 weighs 6 lb. 4 oz.

Jay

Good shooting John!!

I'll bet you've relived that two target deficit several times now! E class shooter!! Hmmmmmm. Typical problem with our current classification system.

Best,
Ken

My bad, JR. Yes, I meant MS.

Yes, 6#4Oz. Not beastly at all.

Back in the game this fall, heading for MN in Oct. After losing last season I am counting days!

Chief

P.S. My apologies for the thread derailment also.

Way to go, John. Well done. Keep shooting like that and you will be in Donor class before you know it.

Hi! to your family for me.

SRH

I've never seen a score of 90% or more in either the UP SxS or its successor, the Great Northern. But that's a bit deceptive, because the overall program used to include both a flurry and a pigeon ring event, which lowered the average when added to the sporting clays totals. (Still includes both a pigeon ring and super pigeon, the latter of which is a bit like 5 stand shot over a ring.) This year, the Great Northern web page shows only a total score, not broken down by sporting/super sporting/pigeon ring. Last year, when the scores were listed for all categories, I know there weren't any more than a couple guys in the 90's at sporting clays. My 84 was good for 5th out of something like 95 shooters.

We're not talking about this year.