Does anyone have or know where I could read more about Syracuse Arms. There is one for sale on GB that look interesting. I suspect they were manufactured in Syracuse NY, but any information will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
John
There was a lengthy series of articles on Syracuse Arms Co. in The Double Gun Journal by Tom Archer and Jack Maedel.
Wow!! A lot of the text in that first link looks like words I wrote on this board about a decade ago --
Syracuse Arms Co. (m) -- Syracuse Arms Company was founded by Frank Hollenbeck after he left Baker Gun & Forging Company in Batavia, New York, and returned to Syracuse in 1893. Between 1893 and 95 Frank had nine patents assigned to Syracuse Arms. The early guns are very tricky to take down, but Frank's patent number 523,813 for a "Movable Cocking Shoulder for Breakdown Guns" would have made this easier. After a couple of years Frank left to make bicycle seats but the company continued to operate until possibly as late as 1908. The earlier guns are marked "The Hollenbeck" and after Frank left in August 1895 they are often marked "The Syracuse." Syracuse Arms Company guns were made in two series -- the stock guns, which had grades designated by numbers 00, 0, 1, 2, and 3; and the special order guns which had grades designated by letters, A, A-1, B, C, and D. List prices in the 1902 catalogue ranged from $30 for the 00-Grade with Triplet Steel barrels to $475 for the D-grade with either Whitworth Fluid or Damascus barrels. Operating in the Syracuse area the company had access to some of this country's finest engravers in the Glahn family. I briefly owned a straight-gripped B-grade that had some of the best engraving (not in quantity but in execution) I've ever seen on an American gun. Wish I'd kept it but its blued over Damascus barrels turned me off. The Syracuse Arms collector in Georgia who, last I knew, had it has had the barrels correctly rebrowned and the gun is a beauty.
The ejectors for Syracuse Arms Co. were designed by George A. Horne and featured a cut-off to set them to just extract if wanted. Horne later worked for the A.H. Fox gun Co. as did George A. Moser who was, I believe, the Syracuse Arms plant manager in the later years.
Two excellent articles on Frank Hollenbeck were published in The Gun Report -- "The Syracuse Arms Company and Frank Hollenbeck" by the late A.C. Atterbury in the July 1988 issue, and "New Notes of Frank A. Hollenbeck" by H.J. Swinney in the September 1991 issue. Tom Archer has begun a series of article on Syracuse Arms Co. in The Double Gun Journal. Tom’s series begins in Volume Fourteen, Issue 1.
After the bicycle seats, Frank was briefly with Baltimore Arms Company, then in 1901 founded the Hollenbeck Gun Co. in Wheeling, West Virginia, to make his three-barrel gun as well as doubles.
Yes, a lot of what we all know about old doubles comes from your research and your willingness to share. Thanks!...Geo
I have one I recently bought. ("The Hollenbeck" model) Right now the barrels have been struck and polished, it's ready for an initial etch and then rust bluing/Damascus refinishing.
There seems to be a lack of specific info on grading, perhaps Researcher would be so kind as to elaborate. I'm referring to the difference between the number grades (00 through 3) and the letter grades. (A through D, including the A-1 Special Trap)
Mine appears to be a Grade 1 with twist barrels, but it has fairly extensive engraving. It was described as a "C" grade, but I'm not sure if that was accurate. I'd post pics, but unfortunately the receiver has quite a bit of surface rust and discoloration, so the engraving is hard to make out. I'm still debating as how I'm going to tackle it, in order to preserve as much as possible.
I've seen other SAC guns described as grade "D" but with considerably less engraving as well as twist barrels, so I still don't have a good feel for the grading system.
I really like mine, I can hardly wait to hunt with it this Fall.
Ken
"Does anyone have or know where I could read more about Syracuse Arms. There is one for sale on GB that look interesting. I suspect they were manufactured in Syracuse NY, but any information will be greatly appreciated.'
John
I don't post very often anymore, but will come out of my hole long enough to assist you in whatever manner I can. Yes, the Syracuse Arms Company was located in Syracuse, NY; and that is indeed where the guns were manufactured. Which gun on GB has peeked your interest? I suppose I've seen more than my share; but to be honest, I haven't found an example of the SAC gun there recently that I've found very interesting. The dealer in Olathe has a couple of early Hollenbeck marked Grade 0 guns (Grade 0, the lowest grade at that time) that have lots of case color; but are a bit over-priced in my opinion. There's an early Grade A (early model frame, no ejector ON/OFF device) that is beautifully restored; but I don't see the gun ever bringing that kind of money being asked. There's another over-priced and well used Grade O for sale there also; and if you search under the word "Hollenbeck" you'll find two or three other Syracuse guns on GB(SAC guns were marked "THE HOLLENBECK" up till about 1896, Hollenbeck resigned from the company in July, 1895; an act that most certainly ticked off the BOD, as the gun was then renamed THE SYRACUSE). But there is one early SAC/Hollenbeck gun listed there that is a very decent and all original example; it is a Grade 1 model with twist barrels and line and scroll engraving. The only difference between the Grade 0 and Grade 1 Hollenbeck and/or Syracuse marked guns is that the Grade 1 model featured a fair amount of line and scroll engraving (no game scenes), and the Grade 0 had no engraving. The Grade O Twist barreled gun listed for $30 at retail, while the Grade 1 Twist barreled engraved model listed for $35. The Grade 1 was discontinued very soon after the gun name changed from HOLLENBECK to SYRACUSE; so that a Grade 1 SYRACUSE model is hard to find. The only real interesting Syracuse gun I've seen on GB in quite a while sold 2-3 months ago; a second model Grade 3 ejector (no ON/OFF device) with Krupp Steel barrels. The Grade 3 was never cataloged with anything but "Improved Damascus" barrel tubes; so this was a special order gun, or one example from a special promotion. I actually bid on that gun, but wasn't willing to pay the hammer price as I have the only other Grade 3 Krupp barreled SAC gun I've come across; but someone got a very rare gun in that auction and I hope they realize their good fortune. Although I own an AE Grade 16-bore with factory engraved quail on the guardbow (only A Grade I've ever seen with factory game scenes), game scenes on SAC guns were not cataloged until the $125 Grade A-1 Special Trap, which had bird scenes (two quail/two woodcock) on each side of the receiver. The Grade B and above guns had dog scenes and/or special ordered game scenes (have seen a CE with a running rabbit on the left side); but SAC grades higher that the Grade A are really hard to find. Like someone here has already stated, everything you ever wanted to know ad-nausem about the SAC gun has been printed in my double gun articles.
Ken61 - Your gun is an early example $35 Grade 1 gun. And yes, I've seen low grades advertised in all manner of grades; the most common being Grade "D". I believe I recall that even one of the above referenced Olathe, KS O Grade guns is listed as a Grade D? I believe the reason/confusion for this mislabeling is from the barrel stamps just in front of the barrel flats. One will often see three stamps on each barrel such as "1" "D" "J" and in that order. I'm almost certain the "1" barrel stamp denotes a light-weight gun, the the "2" stamp found on most standard 30" tubed guns denotes a mid-weight gun; and the "3" stamp the heaviest weight SAC guns. I have no idea what the other stamps denote, although I think the "J" is the barrel regulator's mark? And no one has a good "feel" of the Grading designation for the early Hollenbeck guns; and we may never find the key needed to decipher the "code". I wrote an article several years ago on a Grade D Hollenbeck gun that remains the most elaborately engraved SAC gun I've ever seen, yet the serial number of that gun is consecutive to another Grade D Hollenbeck with high grade barrels and no more engraving than your Grade 1. I'm at a loss for an explanation other than the early Grade D guns were advertised as special ordered to each customer's taste. As of today, I've yet to see an early Hollebeck Graded A, B, or C marked gun; only the 0, 1, 2, 3, and a few D's. I've seen one Grade 3 that was over-stamped with a "D" over the 3 (had to look close, but the gun features clearly showed the piece as a Grade 3). This gun was not a Grade D, but the original Grade 3 engraving pattern had been gussied up (perhaps an employee gun, or engraving exmaple for consideration) with added scrolls and sworls so that the frame was mostly covered (the work was well done); but it clearly had Grade 3 pattern Damascus barrels, and its broken stock was clearly featured Grade 3 quality wood and checkering pattern (also had the "3" Grade stamp on the wood under the trigger guard). That gun was later re-stocked with the late Grade D style checkering, carving pattern, and wood quality; then sold for good money as an authentic Grade D gun. And I'm not saying the gun wasn't worth the money, 'cause it did look good; only that it wasn't an authentic SAC "D" quality gun (I have a pic of that over-stamped grade mark somewhere in my files). After the gun name was changed to THE SYRACUSE a sufficient number of original facory catalogs have survived so that Grade ID from that point to the end of production is not an issue; but unlike Parker and LeFever collecotors, the SAC gun collector doesn't have to worry much about faked guns, with the above noted Grade 3 gun the only up-graded SAC gun I've ever seen.
"Wow!! A lot of the text in that first link looks like words I wrote on this board about a decade ago."
Dave - Either you wrote that short essay, or it was Daryl Halquist who sold the gun to me, which was an early Grade B SAC gun. By the way, I see copies of quotes from my reseach scattered about on a number of web-sites (like the noted Gun Values board above); and like you, someone esle usually gets credit. As my sole reason for posting anything outside DGS and one or two other forums is an attempt to clarify all the misinformation about the SAC gun that is continually reguritated by the misinformed, I only care when some knucklehead comments that I don't know what the hello I talking about. And like others have I've also used bits of your research, being sure to give you credit in the process; in fact, if you can remember the Fox article I wrote, I even give you credit when I misquote what it is you've said!
In spite of the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed the effort, I've said/written way too much; so if you actually read crap all the way through, I am most gratified for your patience. Tom
Thanks Tom,
You've explained everything. Mine is one of the lightweight guns you described, in addition to being a Grade 1.
John,
The Hollenbeck on GB from the MA seller appears to be the same as mine, a Grade 1/twist. At least that's what it looks like when I blow up the pic as far as my computer allows. The engraving appears to be similar.
Regards
Ken
I would like to thank both Tom and Dave for their efforts and information. It has been a constant source of intelligent information that I have enjoyed and used for decades. Knowledge which has both saved me time and money and made me spend even more time and money at the same time.
Thank you all very much. The knowledge and experience of posters on this forum continues to amaze. The gun making fraternity in NY must have been tight: Baker, Lefever, Remington, Smith, and Syracuse. It would be nice to have a representative gun from each.
Once again,
Thanks
Ahhhhhhh... A taste of the good ole days. This is how this forum used to operate and I couldn't be more pleased to see civility and free flow of expert info again. I second what Ky.Jon said...Thanks and best regards,
I really want to thank all involved for this line of discussion. I just purchased a Syracuse Arms 16 ga. today and am attempting to learn more about it and the company. I don't think it's anything fancy but it felt good so I picked it up! I sure found the right place to learn! I live in the communist state of Illinois so I have to wait until Monday to pick it up from the Auction house...can't wait to give it a close look. Thanks again all...Joe
Jaycee43
When you retrieve your old SAC 16-gauge; post pics here and we can tell you exactly what it is you have. The 16 gauge SAC gun was first cataloged in 1901, and near the end of the first model prodution run. It was offered in all cataloged grades, except for the hammer gun; and with barrel lengths at 26", 28", and 30". SAC 16's were made in all model variatios; but the actual production period is determined by gun features, and not by serial number. I always find this stuff interesting; and will assist you with any information I have available.
That'll be interesting. I wonder if it was made as a "lightweight" gun as well? Perhaps a 16ga on more like a 20ga frame? Please get a good weight on it, I'd like to see how it compares to my 16ga Flues..
Regards
Ken
Thank you all very much. The knowledge and experience of posters on this forum continues to amaze. The gun making fraternity in NY must have been tight: Baker, Lefever, Remington, Smith, and Syracuse. It would be nice to have a representative gun from each.
Once again,
Thanks
We're thinking the same way. I'm still looking for a Lefever project gun.
Ken
Interesting SAC ad from 1903 with "Guaranteed to Shoot ANY Nitro Powder and NOT GET LOOSE"
1895 Hunter Arms ad
1897 Chas. Godfrey N.Y. courtesy of Researcher via Tom
1901
Maybe it was a New York thing?
c. 1900 Ithaca ad. The hammerless gun illustration clearly shows Damascus barrels and was also advertised as “Guaranteed Never to Shoot Loose With Nitro powder”
They may have shared the same marketing/ public relations consultants. Would make an interesting chapter in a history of gun manufacturing in NY.
Here's the Baker variant c. 1925 "They Never Shoot Loose"
1929 with the Folsom address
Most guns don't "Shoot Loose". Any break open gun will "Get Loose" if continually opened & closed without being kept clean of grit & properly lubed.
There weren't any 'public relations' or 'marketing' consultants back then. Only advertising agencies, copywriters and salesmen. Their jobs were more or less intuitive, with the exception of the agencies writing ads for mail-order companies who could (if they would) calculate the returns of each ad to a cent. What these companies could share was the ad agency or a head salesman (what would be termed "sales director" these days), but I doubt it.
These ads really look quite typical for the period. The reoccurance of 'not shoot loose' is an interesting feature though, and really worthy of additional research. Of course, the first things that comes to mind is that the lack of strength was the consumers' biggest concern back then. With lots of JABC's on the market, the concern is understandable.
But when you're dealing with those days before market research, you've got to be careful. Often, the themes for advertising were suggested by the manufacturer, and reflected not the actual consumer's mind, but what the maker thought was the strongest side of his produce. If the makers put most of their money in developing the strongest action, they would insist on the ads making a special point on that, and the marketing person who could say 'actually, the customers couldn't care less for strength' (if such was the case) wasn't there yet.
Alternatively, there's the 'sincerest form of flattery' - a copywriter could decide 'if it worked for Lefever, it's gonna work for us!' and simply recycle a slogan. Interestingly, the last company which used this selling point was the Baker, which, if I'm not mistaken, by the late 1920s was already on the way out.
I can't give a decided opinion on which was the case, it would take knowing much more about how they advertised, what the consumers actually thought, what the gun writers had to say, who wrote their ads, etc. But the more I think about it, the more I agree that it could be an interesting Advertising Research project. Anyone able to come up with a grant I could win to come over to States and investigate the issue?
John,
Did you get your Syracuse? If not, I've seen another one if you're still looking..
Regards
Ken
Ken,
No the deal fell thru. What did you see?
Thanks,
John
Dave and Tom (Researcher and Topgun),
Since I'm restoring my Hollenbeck, I'd like your opinions on this "Restored" gun. I have serious doubts about the historical accuracy of the case coloring, as well as barrel contrast. The listed manufacturing date is also suspect. In 1894 wasn't the "Hollenbeck" name still in use?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=432540923Thanks
Ken
Ken
Assuming the brief company history contained in the 1902 SAC catalog is correct; then yes, the above noted GB gun was manufactured sometime between 1896 and 1901, as that catalog states the name of the gun "was changed in 1896 to THE SYRACUSE in honor of the city it which it was made". Frank Hollenbeck resigned from the company in July, 1895 (his letter of resignation to the company survive and was found in items from his daughter's estate)where he then went off on his own to make his short-lived "hygenic bicycle seats"; so I would think the name change year is accurate. The gun noted above appears to be a standard early A Greade gun with auto-ejectors, which were also introduced in 1896; and was most likely made before 1900. The HOLLENBECK marked guns were out of procuction by the time SAC offered auto-ejectors, and I've never seen a HOLLENBECK marked SAC gun with retro-fitted auto ejectors. But even though SAC used a consectively number serial number sequence beginning with No. 1 (lowest number I've seen is No.37), my studies find the occassional low serial numbered, high-grade SAC gun built with features not cataloged before 1902 such as the ejector on/off device and their 3/4, or "S" shaped pistol grip; but I've also seen several high and low grade early numbered examples that have combinations of features from all three production periods? All this keeps the study of the SAC gun interesting, but frustrating too; as such discoveries only raise more questions than provides answers.
The colors on the above restored gun are not correct, as the handful of SAC guns I've seen with lots of original remaining case color are much more vivid and vibrant. We have a member here, can't recall his handle, who has a Grade O gun with fabulous original colors; and he may post again to this thread, although I'm sure photos of that gun are archieved here somewhere. All SAC/Hollenbeck guns also featured nitre blued trigger plates; the plate in the example noted above is case colored. The Damascus and Twist barreled SAC guns I've seen with lots of original barrel pattern finish feature black and white contrast as opposed to a "browned" look. Dr. Drew, should he choose to post, has pics of an "as new" set of SAC Grade 2 & 3 Improved Damascus patterned barrels he might share again. He also has pics (not great pics) of the case colors from a 1901 vintage Grade 00 SAC gun I recently stumbled across that he could also share. As regards restoration of finishes to your gun, I would suggest that you pull out your DGJ collection (Volume 23, Issue 4) and check out Terry Allen's pics of a Grade D3 Hollenbeck SAC gun (#180 I believe?), as that gun had tons of remaining original and period correct finishes; altough its original case colors had darkened a bit with age. Hope this helps you some what, and feel free to ask for my assistance anytime. Tom
"Washington" or "American Flag Bunting"
Looking for the 00 case colors pic
Thanks Tom and DocDrew,
Tom, I appreciate the info, I couldn't believe the gun was made in 1894. (due to knowledge I gained from you, Dave, DocDrew and the others on this board. I'm a good student, and don't claim to have done the primary research) I especially appreciate the info on the trigger plates, as now I know what to do with them. How about the toplever, and screws? Nitre blued or case colored?. I assume, (usually a bad idea) that the trigger guard was nitre blued?
DocDrew, great pic, wonderful barrels with very nice contrast. Contrast is what I have a problem with the aforementioned restored SAC gun, it looks not quite right to me, but it may be lighting. The extreme darkness of the case coloring is also puzzling, so I'll reiterate a phrase I often use on restored guns: "I can't imagine that it would have been allowed to leave the factory that way"..
Thanks again
Ken
Great! It looks like the top lever is case colored, the trigger guard (as well as the trigger plate) and screws are nitre blued! Ghost holes on the action sides, so the holes were left open. A good assortment of browns, so more phosphorus in the medium. Now, it's a matter of figuring out the shielding.
Thanks
Ken
Brad Bachelder is a fabulous craftsman.
There aren't many restorationists interested in $25.00 shotguns that are hard to resell at $300.00
We're lucky SAC used Stars and Bars tubes, otherwise there wouldn't be any of them left to fiddle with.
In my case, I am always troubled by shotguns too precisely restored. They always seem to resurface some day with an original condition upgrade.
I could use a trigger guard off an SAC A-1 Special Trap if anyone ever sees one. No, I don't have an A-1 special, I just want a straight grip stock for an SAC 12, grade 2 I have.
Sure, I'm not disputing the quality of the work, only the historical accuracy. "Paint a Purdey Purple", if that's what you desire. As long as it's your gun. The issue comes up when the term "Restoration" is used. "Wood and metal completely refinished" would probably be more apt.
Regards
Ken
I have seen a great deal of Brad's work. It's quite the insult to equate his skills with painting a Purdey purple.
You can say a firearm is functionally restored, or cosmetically restored, honestly. If there is no attempt to deceive, then value is between the parties interested.
I am only an observer of the after market steel coloring markets, but it would seem no one wants the utilitarian, simplified quench colors of the hardware store guns. Occasionally someone wants to recreate chain carried hot salt colors, but seldom the cheap and simple colors of the American common guns.
I don't know of anyone putting efforts into recreating them, but in the rifle market, there are dozens of people that work to recreate the early Winchester, Marlin, Colt, colors reliably.
Now, now, I didn't insult anyone. Certainly not Brad. I'll reiterate the point I made earlier, that I wasn't disputing the quality of the work. My point was that anyone can do anything they want with their own property. It's nobody else's business.
Good examples are such things as having a picture of yourself playing the guitar engraved on the action sides in Bulino, or engraving your gun with topless Harpies and other mythological creatures. Both examples previously discussed on this board. All a personal choice due to your own tastes.
The Marlin guys have really got into the "Nitty Gritty" of case color restoration, it's from them that I gained a lot of my initial knowledge.
I'll dispute your view that "it would seem no one wants the utilitarian, simplified quench colors of the hardware store guns". Hardly accurate, as case coloring was found on the whole gamut of grades, and was really more of a period metallurgical process that was adapted to be aesthetically pleasing as well. Why do you think that Vintage guns with high case color condition command significantly higher prices? Originality is obviously preferred, but accurate restoration is desirable as well. Turnbull is the obvious example. If they didn't, chances are people wouldn't take the time and effort to attempt to restore them.
Regards
Ken
People like turquoise.
It drives that market.
Americans have an almost pathological obsession with originality. It drives purchase prices in the secondary mkt. It provides opportunity for the crooks and charlatans.
I am always amused when Doug Turbull has to out a former customers deception.
As long as whatever is done isn't misrepresented, I have no anxiety over restorative work.
Color incidental to mass production heat treating of cheap guns wasn't done for art's sake.
I disagree with the American obsession with originality. I do agree with the European concept of refurbishment and renewal. I see no harm in restoring guns to condition similar when new. I agree that restored guns should be identified so, as to avoid misrepresentation.
I disagree that colors were incidental. Creating colors is much more complex than simple heat treatment, and is a more expensive process. Simple heat treatment would result in a dull, grey finish. Methodology was often a guarded process, as specific colors and patterns require very specific processes. There are many, many variables involved, it's as much art as science. There is no doubt that such time and expense were put into it because there was a consumer demand for it, as do many, including myself, consider case coloring to be a form of art. It's right up there with pattern-welded barrels.
Regards
Ken
Ken,Doc drew! top gun,
Did the upper grade SAC guns come with Stars and Stripes, Washington, and/ or American bunting or did the purchaser pay extra for hose patterns?
Another question: was the action internals an A & D or an original design. I see only one cross pin, not the usual three as per A & D.
Thanks.
John
Syracuse Arms barrels entirely per Tom, and I have not seen enough SAC Damascus to know what they used for 'Fine' or 'Finest'. The 'Washington' pattern shown is on a Gr 2 or 3:
Grade 00 "Triplet Steel" (first offered in 1901);
Grade 0 and Grade 1 "New Twist";
Grade 2 and 3 "Improved Damascus";
the Grades A and A-1 Special Trap "Fine Damascus" or optional Krupp Steel;
the Grade B and Grade C "Finest Grade Damascus" or optional Krupp Steel;
and the top of the line Grade D "Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel" or the "Finest Grade of Damascus Steel Barrels Obtainable" (the Grade D gun retailed for $475.00 in 1902.
This is the most beautiful Syracuse Arms shotgun I've ever seen.
Damascus barrels, fabulous engraving.
I shivered when I looked at it the first time.
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/freedom's-doorway/case-82-right-display/syracuse-arms-side-by-side-shotgun.aspx
It's not Turquoise
I am doing a copy of this for marsh birds. Just an engraving upgrade. A young guy by me wanted to try, and I gave him a Hollenbeck action to scratch on.
I haven't seen many SAC's with the Krupp tubes.
Note to add: I couldn't help but notice the NRA guns color is quite similar to Brad B's colored Syracuse. Probably where he got his reference images. Judging from pictures, I'd say you could patinate the refurbished SAC at Bachelder's to a very good approximation of the NRA gun.
Doesn't make it "as manufactured", but you can see where you can take the Bachelder gun with a little effort at patination.
FWIW I don't patinate guns, except by accident, neglect, or omission.
This gun should be out of restoration by now, perhaps Tom Archer has seen it after refurbishment.
http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?id=67877
The gun at the NRA Museum has 3 Iron 'Oxford' similar to the 'Oxford 4 S.J.' found on Remington 1894 B grades
CZ, the NRA gun is a good one. I have seen a half dozen B Grades that have similar engraving quality, so I assume it is a B Grade. Hard to believe Syracuse Arms could have had two higher grades.
CZ,
That NRA gun is truly a work of art. I agree that the darkness is probably old patina. Now, I'd think twice about doing anything to a high grade gun in such high original condition. But, if it had been in poor condition, (such as my Hollenbeck) I'd want the restoration to be as close to factory original as possible. I'm certainly NOT going to attempt to create a 100 year old "patina" on my gun. But, as always, "To each his own". I can't but help wonder what that gun would look like if the barrels were in the same shape (contrast) as the ones DocDrew posted earlier.
Marsh Birds? We're thinking the same way. My Hollenbeck may very well replace my 16Ga Flues as my preferred Snipe gun. Since my cousin is set up for 12Ga reloading, he'll be able to load me some low pressure "Spreader" rounds.
John,
DocDrew's response on barrels was pretty comprehensive, but I'm eagerly awaiting Tom's answer to see if he has anything to add.
Regards,
Ken
Doc Drew pretty much covered the gamut of barrel steels used/offered by Syracuse Arms as described in late period SAC catalogs published after 1901; but I've found almost nothing in terms of factory literature for the very early Hollenbeck gun period, so who can say definitively what barrels steels (other than Twist and Damascus) were used during that era. In fact, barrel steel type was generally not marked on SAC barrels before sn8XXX (I've yet to see an example anyway). The gun in the NRA link is, as Daryl has indicated, an early Grade B gun; it is engraved in the typical early Grade B style (no game scenes, all scroll and border work), and the only thing remarkable about that gun (other than condition) is that it is a "live bird" gun and the only SAC gun I've come across to date ordered w/o a safety slide. Maybe Dr. Drew can/will post more information; but in reading some of his posts on period pigeon shoots, apparently one intrepid soul competed in those great turn of the century pigeon shoots using a SAC gun (maybe this is that gun?).
From my observations, the early Grade A (like the example on GB) and the early Grade B SAC guns have the same Damascus barrel pattern (unlike Doc Drew I'm not expert in reading Damascus patterns); and there is no difference between those grades with the exception of engraving coverage. By the time the 1901 catalog was issued, the engraving pattern on the SAC Grade B gun had changed so that it no longer featured 100% border and scroll work; it now featured scroll and border work with pointing dogs on each side of the frame, and game scene on the trigger guard bow. This late B style featured a pointer on the left side of the frame and a setter on the right (I think?); and I've seen no variation on that style except that on two examples the dogs are engraved so that one is pointing towards the muzzles, and the other towards the shooter (a neat twist I thought). The 1901 catalog listed the retail price of the B Grade with this new engraving pattern at $125, the same cataloged price of the early style 100% scroll engraved Grade B it replaced; but that price had jumped to $175 by the time the 1902 catalog burst on the scene. And with the introduction of the new B Grade engraving style, Damascus barrel steel was upgraded also from "Fine Quality Damascus" to "Finest Grade Damascus" (Grade C and D SAC guns from the same period were furnished with "Finest Grade of Damascus Steel of very fine figure, fully warranteed; and upon request, "the finest Grade of Damascus Steel Barrels that can be Obtained"). The two late period Grade B SAC guns I've owned (and others I've seen) had very finely figured Damascus patterns that Buck Hamlin described as "hard English Damascus" because he learned in the browning process that these SAC tubes had a very high steel content; again I don't claim to know beans about Damascus barrel steels, so I'm merely repeating what I was told.
All the early period Grade B guns I've seen featured the same engraving and coverage as the NRA gun; and were cataloged priced at $125 in early catalogs. These early SAC catalogs made no mention of SAC Grades higher than Grade B, and I've found no examples of early Grade C or D SAC guns (1896 to 1900) to contradict those catalogs. In fact, I've found a 1901 article stating that it was good to have the Syracuse Arms Company back in the high-grade gun business after an absence of many years. In the early Hollenbeck marked guns, I've found examples of Grade 0, 1, 2, 3, and D; all Grade D guns were engraved differently (and some had a number stamp by the grade stamp for which I don't have a good theory as to its meaning), but I've never found a Hollenbeck marked SAC gun grade stamped A, B, or C. I've found two Grade C Syracuse marked SAC guns with low 4-digit numbers, but both examples had late production features (I'll finish an article at some point on one of those guns, and that example could not have been manufactured until late 1903 when the sliding cocking hook feature was introduced). Damascus barrels of differing qualities were always cataloged SAC gun grades from Grade 2 up thru Grade C; Whitworth was always cataloged as standard on late Grade D guns, with Damascus barrels being optional. On Grades A, A-1, B, and C; Krupp barrels were always cataloged as optional. I've seen several Grade A guns with Krupp barrels, one Grade C gun with Krupp; but have yet to see a single example of the Grade B SAC gun with Krupp barrels. Improved Damascus (the SAC barrel steel photo posted by Doc Drew above) was the only cataloged barrel steel ever available on the Grade 3 gun; but I've seen two Grade 3 examples with factory installed Krupp barrels during the past two years. All high grade guns depicted inside SAC's largest and most comprehensive 1902 and 1903 factory catalogs feature Damascus barrels. The most beautiful SAC guns I've ever seen are early production examples, both are marked "THE HOLLENBECK"; and I can't decide which I like best. At first glance one would think SAC gun no.180 was a 12-bore but it is actually a very light weight 10-bore 30" Hollenbeck gun grade-stamped "D3" that I featured in the DGJ about 2 years ago; it is a beautiful example with very early cosmetic features that weren't available later on, and a gun that remains in outstanding original condition. The second gun in my personal "tie" is Paul's Hollenbeck gun that I featured years ago in the DGJ. That gun is in the 2XXX range and grade stamped "D". As I recall it featured 9 different game scenes (more than any SAC gun I've ever seen), beautifully figured English walnut with a factory Monte Carlo comb, and still in very high condition. The most interesting SAC gun I've ever seen has no serial number, no patent date stamps; and has features that never went into gun production. A depiction of this fascinating gun was first featured in the 1895 edition of the City of Syracuse directory (and much later in the DGJ); and I believe that gun to be the prototype gun that was built by Frank Hollenbeck himself It's finding SAC nuances such as some of these noted here that keep the study of the SAC gun interesting for me. And as FYI, I've recently discovered a new variation of SAC's late model sliding cocking hook feature; a very interesting variation to me, and something I'll try to share at some point soon. I've obviously gotten carried away and apologize for the length of this post; but do hope some of this information was helpful and/or interesting.
Wonderful detail Tom, it's greatly appreciated.
Here we are all tied up with barrel pattern and metal finish, and everyone forgot about the second question. I'll try to answer it, but all my knowledge (as usual) is second-hand.
It's my understanding that the Hollenbeck/Syracuse boxlock action was a new design, one by Hollenbeck himself. As I recall from seeing one of the old ads, it was marketed as having fewer parts, therefore being a stronger and more reliable action.
Regards
Ken
Thank you all very much. The research and knowledge of all speaks in volumes to the interest in classic American SxSs and I can't thank you all enough for your generosity.
I saw a Syracuse on GI at Cabelas in Wisconsin. It has some engraving but nothing like those in the links presented in these posting and the barrels look as if they are similar to those Doc Drew posted above, although not as nice.
The barrel pattern sold the gun for me and if I can purchase it I,ll have them refinished.
Once again, thank you all.
Found Tom's Grade 2 SAC. The right barrel has the "New Twist" pattern; but is roll-stamped "Improved Damascus". The left barrel is "Washington". It may have been a salesman's sample gun?
That's a beauty for sure. I'd buy that one if I had found it.
I just love the way the stocks are shaped on the nicer Syracuse guns. The comb nose rebates, and the sway of the grip cap really look good to me. It took me a while to warm up to the elongated panels and the angular action shape, but now they are some of my favorites.
Syracuse's typical flattened look to the trigger guard never looks that good to me however. They always look compressed, though they work just fine.
Nice find. Use it in good health.
Model2128Ga - That's a very nice A Grade; and you won't find many SAC guns with unmolested screws; a very nice find indeed. Interestingly, the serial number of your gun is very close to the serial number of the Grade A gun depicted in the 1902 and 1903 large SAC catalogs, as well as the 1904 pocket catalog, SN 25317. The SN of the D Grade gun depicted in the 1902 and 1903 SAC catalogs is 25307 (Grade C and D was not depicted in any pocket catalog I've seen); that gun still exists, and the Grade A and D guns in those catalogs are the only high-grade serial numbers legible. My SN research indicates that high-grade SAC guns have frames numbered in blocks, and I assume that is because of the manner in which frames were sent to the engraver.
CZ - The SAC trigger guard does indeed give the gun a unique look. The earliest Hollenbeck marked SAC guns had a more traditional shape; but SAC adopted the flattened guard bow feature after only a few hundred guns, and I don't recall seeing that feature on any original example with a 4-digit serial number. I theorize that the change may have been made to accommodate gloved fingers; but it could have been a feature adopted simply to give the SAC gun a unique/slightly different "look" than their competition.
Interesting note on the On/Off device is that, in the 1902 catalog, the only high-grade SAC gun (any grade gun) depiction featuring that device was the Grade D. That feature was noted in the other (and in the Grade D depiction also) as follows: "We also attach to this grade of gun, without extra charge, our new device (patent applied for) for instantly changing gun from an Automatic Ejector to a Non-Ejector". On all hammerless grades lower that Grade A, the On/Off device could be ordered for an additional $5 on guns ordered with the SAC auto-ejector option; but auto-ejectors were available as a standard feature on all Grade A guns from the time (1895-96?) the company began fitting auto ejectors to their guns.
Tom, at first I thought the SAC trigger guards I was looking at were squashed from abuse. But over time I learned they were made that way.
I have a 16 Crass that I have trouble getting between the triggers. Yet, on my SAC's there seems to be no problem front to rear. I should measure the distance between them. I suspect that the SAC's have more room between the triggers, and if they didn't flatten the guard, the bow would be huge.
Tom, as always I want to say thanks for your efforts regarding SAC guns.
CZ,
Is your guy a trained engraver? I'm looking for someone, preferably someone just beginning in the business, to re-cut engraving on some restoration guns.
Thanks
Ken
I've always been intrigued by the SAC guns, with their angular receiver and flared forends. Very early American. I recently picked up this Syracuse 16, an OO grade with steel barrels:
It is in well worn condition, but still tight as a vault, with near perfect bores, 30" f/f. For as well used as this gun obviously is, and to still be rock solid tight, is very impressive for a gun with a patent date on the water table of 1893. I'm very impressed with the gun, and it feels very lively in my hands, even though it weighs 7lbs on the dot with the long barrels.
Marc
Can't tell much about your SAC gun from the single pic except that, from the safety slide, this example would be 1902 production or later (would be late 1903 or 1904 if it has the sliding cocking plate feature). SAC first cataloged its 16-bore gun in 1901, and the 16 was listed as being available in all hammerless grades 00 thru D from that point until production ceased. Based on my research, high-grade SAC 16 bores seem to be quite uncommon however; as I've recorded maybe a half-dozen A grades, 0 A-1 Special Trap Grades, 2 B Grades, 0 C Grades, and 2 D Grades(1902 was the catalog date for the SAC twenty but SAC 20 bores of any grade are REAL uncommon, as that bore size was only cataloged as available in grades 2, 3, A, and A-1; and only then with auto-ejectors, which option I'm sure further limited production. Cataloged 16 gauge barrel lengths were 26, 28, and 30"; and I don't recall weights off the cuff just now, but period ads claim the SAC 16 was made on a true 16 gauge frame. I recently stumbled into a 1903/04 vintage 16-bore SAC gun with ejectors and the on/off device with factory original 26" Damascus barrels. The gun remains tight as a tick with mint bores; but original finishes leave much to be desired. One of the very first SAC guns I ever owned was a 16-bore AE with 30" Krupp barrels that I got from the Klunkermiester, our dearly departed friend Rupp Ruppell. The barrels on that gun had survived in outstanding condition; but stocks were a glued together mess and it had been carried so much that the engraving was barely legible. Talk about durability; that gun must've been fired a million times! I traded the gun off, as it would have been far to costly to restore; but I sure wish I still had those barrels knowing what I know now! As to your comment on durability, as a layman shooter/collector (I don't remotely pretend to be a gun mechanic); I'm convinced that the SAC gun was as good, and in many cases better than its other period domestic competition while it was in production from 1893 into 1905 with the possible exception of the LC Smith. SAC was no excetion when it came to making improvements to their gun (which is why I've classified SAC guns from different prodcution periods as distinct models), but with the exception of the Smith gun (which rotary locking bolt was never changed and frame size actually reduced in 1907) practically all period American makers were quite busy introducing a redesigned gun, improved bolting devices, and/or reinforced frames and stock inletting intended to improve the durability of their gun during the 12 year production run of the SAC gun.
I apologize for the delay in my response Ken,
the youngster learning to engrave firearms (at my expense) works at a clockshop I frequent. I provided a couple junk actions that need engraving repairs, and he's learning to recut (ideally invisibly) take smoke pulls, annealing, yada, yada, When he gives me back "The Hollenbeck", in proper form, I'll give him tougher assignments. He's done some wonderful scroll cutting on some time pieces. He's got potential, But he's green.
CZ
He sounds like the type of guy I'm looking for. I figure recutting has to be easier that engraving from scratch, and it might be a way for him to improve his skills while making a few bucks. It'd be nothing high grade initially. The actions would be annealed and polished, with the engraving being the last step before I case color them. You might ask him if he's interested.
Thanks
Ken
That is a nice looking gun!
Marks 21
That gun appears to be the SAC Grade A gun recently posted for sale on Gun International. Based on screw slot condition, this gun hasn't been molested, and all finishes appear to be original with the exception of stock wood; which appears to have been refinished and recheckered, and of course the pad is a recent addition. The features on this gun would indicate production in the 1902/1903 period (what I've described as the "2nd Model"); and it exhibits all the cataloged features of the SAC Grade A gun with the exception of optional Krupp Steel barrels. This gun was cataloged at $75 retail during this period, and represented a lot of value for a gun of this quality at that price point. That gun has lots of life remaining; and I hope you have ample opportunity to enjoy using this piece with great effect in the field.
That is a nice looking gun! Congratulations.
Wow, that is a gorgeous A grade!
I finally had a chance to shoot my 30" f/f choked 16 O grade today, and I'm glad I did! I was invited to shoot trap, which I hardly ever do. I put a slip on comb raiser on it, and that little gun knocked my socks off. I think I shot a 21 or 22 with it, which is good for me since I usually shoot skeet. Dead on and velvety smooth is the best way I can describe it. I had planned on selling it, but now I'm having visions of late season roosters and chukars, dropping like flies at 40+ yds... I'm surprised these SAC guns don't get more play.
Ran across this 1895 review of SAC “The Hollenbeck”
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_05/SL2505015.pdf Interesting it was only being distributed through Herman Boker & Co., New York
Great article Drew. I thought Lefevers were easy to work on, but the SAC gun only has a few screws and is remarkably easy to take apart. Impressive design.
A 16ga recently popped up on Armslist.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/587161/ham...by-side-shotgunTough to tell what it is from the pictures. It's listed with "Improved Damascus" barrels, and it looks like it might have the Grade 1 engraving. So, possibly it's a Grade 2? Seems a little pricey for the gun's condition...
Ken,
Thanks for the heads up.
I have just added my first SAC to my accumulation of American Doubles. It won't arrive for a week or so but the info from the seller(yes an oline purchase) lets me believe it is a Grade 3. I am hoping Mr. Archer or one of you other knowledgable gents can educate me on what I have. I am somewhat up on Hollenbeck and his history in the trade. Looking to learn at what ser# the first "The Syracuse" labeled guns appeared and the last "Hollenbeck". Was the change abrupt at a certain serial number or did the numbers overlap?
Sale bill read as follows:
Syracuse Arms Co. SxS hammerless shotgun, 12 gauge, 32” damascus barrels that have an old re-blued finish, checkered wood stocks with added hard rubber butt pad, #5148 in overall good condition as re-finished showing very good bores, good actions and markings, good wood stocks.
Pics:
Thank you,
John
Congratulations, I saw that one on Proxibid, you got a great deal. Be sure and tell us what Damascus pattern type the barrels have.
Regards
Ken
Ken,
Thanks, I have been looking a long time for a decent SAC double. Most look pretty tired and priced at a premium. I don't consider any of my purchases "investment grade". Most are Field grade guns with 50-60% condition. Almost all are tight, sound wood and field ready. Wish I had more time to get in the field.
John
That one certainly appears to be a "cut above" Field grade. Yeah, most of the Syracuse guns that have been popping up recently are Grade 00 and 0, are in lower condition, and are priced at around $300 or so...I'm going to make an effort to get out more this year, my Setter is getting frustrated..
ugly picture of a DE 16..
Love to find one of those.
"I have just added my first SAC to my accumulation of American Doubles. It won't arrive for a week or so but the info from the seller(yes an online purchase) lets me believe it is a Grade 3. I am hoping Mr. Archer or one of you other knowledgeable gents can educate me on what I have. I am somewhat up on Hollenbeck and his history in the trade. Looking to learn at what ser# the first "The Syracuse" labeled guns appeared and the last "Hollenbeck". Was the change abrupt at a certain serial number or did the numbers overlap?
Will need to see more pics before I can be of any help identifying your new SAC. All I can tell from those photos is that the stock head is fitted flush to the frame, meaning that the manufacture date should be between 1896 (when the name changed) and 1902 when the "stocks in-letted into frame" feature was first cataloged. The engraving would most likely indicate a Grade 3 gun, and barrel steel would most likely be "Improved Damascus", although barrel steel type was seldom marked on early SAC guns. As noted this gun does have an early serial number, but SAC serial numbers don't always indicate early manufacture; instead period production features determine the manufacture period (I.e. Chris above has my old Grade C SAC gun with a 4-digit sn#556X; that gun has the sliding cocking plate feature introduced in late 1903, and the ejector on/off device first cataloged in 1902 and both features on an early model frame). Chris's Grade DE above is a very rare SAC 16-bore with optional Whitworth Steel barrels, and the first lead I got on that gun is when Daryl Halquist advertised it (and an early Grade BE) for sale in the inaugural/premier issue of the DGJ (Winter 1989?). When I called Daryl, he had already sold the gun to Jim Howland; Jim later sold the gun to me, and I sold the gun a few years later when my corporate job went away and I had to have cash to survive. Chris has several pieces from my former SAC collection; and whenever I need a SAC fix, we arrange a visit!
I recently watched a most unusual SAC gun sell on Gunbroker that I really wanted; but unfortunately the other bidder was blessed with much deeper pockets. In reviewing the pics and speaking with the dealer, I believe the gun to have originally been an employee gun. At first glance this gun appeared to be a late production Grade B (sn#370XX); but on close inspection, it had a combination of features from several SAC grades as follows:
Butt stock - plain English with the SAC signature 3/4 "S" shaped pistol grip, but lacking the gold name shield standard on late production high-grade stocks. Grip panel checkering appeared to be a "B" pattern, but not as fine. Cheeks were checkered, but the Grade B cheek panel carving around those panels was absent.
Fame - the frame had been shaped and filed as per all SAC frames used on Grade B and higher SAC guns. Frame sides were engraved with a single dog on either side; but the dogs were larger than those standard on late production Grade B guns, and the scroll and border work on this gun frame was not as extensive as the standard late B guns. The engraving style and quality was clearly the same and equivalent to the engraving seen on factory engraved SAC guns. The water table featured the customary patent dates and serial number stamp, but no grade stamp. Overall evaluation of the engraving coverage on this SAC frame was that it was somewhere above A quality, but not B quality.
Trigger Guard - The guard featured two quail in an oval on the guard bow, and the bow itself had been filed with the raised ("V-shaped") middle ridge common to Grade B and higher SAC guns. Most late B SAC guns I've seen feature a dog scene on the guard bow; but the work on this piece was nicely done, and coverage was again above A and not quite B quality.
Barrels - The 30" barrels on this gun were not fitted with auto-ejectors, and therefore did not have SAC's ejector on/off switch; making this example the only "high-grade" post 1896 SAC gun I've seen to date w/o auto ejectors. Atop the barrels was engraved the maker's name and steel type, "Plain Steel"; and the barrel flats were stamped "OO", SAC's lowest grade barrel steel.
Forearm - Forearm wood and checkering was plain and the same quality as would be seen on a Grade 00, 0, or Grade 2 SAC gun.
All components were serialized to the gun so that it was not composed of parts even though such might be the collector's first glance conclusion. The dealer said this gun was local, and that his shop was 15 miles from Syracuse; but did hot know the history of this gun. The gun itself was one of the highest condition SAC guns I've seen and remained in amazing condition with nearly all original finishes remaining. I wanted the gun for that factor, as well as the fact that it was unique. I don't know if the purchaser realized this was most likely an employee gun or not; but he certainly got a unique SAC.
Tom,
Thank you for the excellent info, PM sent.
John
The Grade 3 gun arrived today. First observation: It is not a Grade 3. Top of the Watertable has a dandy "A" stamp. The barrel pattern looks to be the same, or near so, as Model2128Ga's A grade above. It has ejectors but no On/Off switch. There is no patent date other than the "Sept. 26 '93" on the Watertable. I have started to clean it up. Here are a couple fuzzy pics. I will try to get some better pics with a real camera tomorrow.
I think it may have been restocked. It is a round knob POW stock and the checkered panel behind the receiver does not follow the receiver line like all other SAC guns I have seen.
Please pipe in with your analysis.
John
John
That gun is a very early Syracuse AE grade; and the very early "V" spring forend fastener would likely date to gun to 1896 or 1897 (I haven't seen the V spring fastener on examples above serial number 7999. Can't tell if the stock is original, but the checkering panels are not those standard on early A SAC guns. Although most early SAC A Grades do feature stocks with a round knob grip, cheek panels are typically not checkered; and early A grade stocks do not feature the oval shaped gold name shield that was standard on later vintage A grades. But graded SAC guns in this serial number range sometimes fall into a grey area; as there are examples of low-numbered high grade SAC frames that were obviously built/finished much later in production; and will thus feature various combinations of early and late production features (remember the CE example, #55XX, that was obviously built in 1903 or '04). As to the ejector on/off device, that feature was not patented until late 1903 and thus was not standard, and therefore is not found on early examples (I've never seen that feature on a SAC gun with the V spring forend attachment). As to the V-spring forend attachment, my experience is that the forend will detach on recoil if that spring is weak.
I'm finishing up the barrels on my Hollenbeck Grade One. Here's what they look like. Tom, DocDrew, did I come reasonably close to accurate restoration?
Regards
Ken
Ken: I know Tom is OLD, but even HE likely hasn't seen a fresh from the factory Syracuse twist barrel
(Kinda mean for a Lord's day
)
This is a likely 'before' barrel. c. 1902 Syracuse Arms No. 0 'New Twist'
I believe an original Grade 1 Hollenbeck Gun Co. courtesy of Mark Landskov
Thanks,
I suspect I'm in the "Ballpark" as far as pattern. As far as what the barrels would look like when fairly new. The contrast on the original condition gun appears to have faded somewhat with slightly gray variations, possibly due to the years of cleaning and rubbing. There's lot's of longitudinal differences. That's one thing I've learned, long strokes are fine for prep, but circular strokes are required when polishing. I think the "New Twist" barrels on the later Syracuse marked guns had more pattern than the original twist used on the Hollenbeck models.
My barrels looked sort'a like the New Twist "before" picture, if you imagine them completely covered by rust and external pits. I got lot's of "Striking & Filing" practice, but I was happy with the results.
Regards
Ken
Here's a picture of three SAC tubes together. Restored by using a slightly modified "Original Parker Process". Picture color is a little off, with the barrels being much blacker in actuality. A Gr3 "Washington" on top, also marked "New Damascus", still needing the final polish and lacquer, A Gr1 Hollenbeck in the middle, and a GR0 "New Twist" set on the bottom. I think I have achieved "Accurate Restoration".
Ken61
Those SAC barrels turned out very nice, and I personally prefer a black and white finish on Twist and Damascus barrels; but for whatever it's worth, the nearest to new condition Grade O "New Twist" SAC gun I've seen to date featured a brown and white finish on its New Twist tubes. For sake of discussion here, there was an article in the DGJ years ago that was a story about a gentleman who worked at both Syracuse Arms and Ithaca Gun Company. In the article were pictures of tools he had used etc.; but the most interesting artifact to me was a copy of a hand-written note on which he had noted the barrel browning formula for finishing Syracuse Arms Company barrels. Not being a chemist, the period terms used to concoct the mixture were Greek to me; as some of the names provided were things I'd never heard of before or since. I can't recall if Walt Snyder or James Tyson may have written that article, and it's been 10 years or more since it was published; but if you're motivated to do so, might be interesting to dig out that article and give that formula a try as you continue experimentation with Damascus barrel finishing.
Tom,
The picture color is off, the barrels are a very deep black and bright white. The true color only shows in the "Glare" section of the top tube of the bottom set. I still have to perfect my photo lighting.
I'd be interested is the original formula, but many contain Mercuric Chloride, which I've been avoiding.
Anyone know of the specific article Tom is referring to?
Regards
Ken
Tom,
Brown & White? That's surprising. Are you fairly certain of this? Actually, this is easily done, merely a continuation of the process, by omitting boiling and logwood soaks after the last couple of light rusting cycles.
Now you've got me all "messed up" as far as originality.
A point Dr. Gaddy made in his DGJ 2003 Original Parker Process article is that over an extended time period, Black & White barrels slowly convert to the more stable Brown & White color. Is this possibly why original barrels now appear Brown & White?
I think reading the article you referenced would assist in a correct determination, as the process would indicate what the end result would be.
I misunderstood your post, I initially thought you were saying the barrels were not black enough.
Regards
Ken
Ken
Having never been a student (only an appreciator) of Damascus barrels, and having never studied the finishing processes; I couldn't possibly explain how Twist and Damascus finishes age.
I've been told, as you understood above, that black and white finishes can age over time to brown and white; and I've also been told that brown and white finishes fade over time to black and white, so how's a fellow supposed to know what to believe? Although I can tell you that most of the Grade O SAC guns I've seen having remaining New Twist finishes are black and white, I have also seen a few examples that exhibit brown and white finishes. The gentleman with the near new SAC Grade O gun noted above is a forum member here, Harry Sanders; and he has posted photos of that gun here in the past, although I don't recall the thread. But regardless, I have pix of that gun Harry shared with me, and don't think he would mind them being posted again; so if you'll forward your email addy (since I can't seem to post photos), I'll forward those to you and you can post them for those interested to see. But rest assured the barrel finishes on that gun are brown and white, while the rib has a darker contrast (almost black); the end result is strikingly beautiful, and there is little wonder that SAC's Grade O gun was their sales leader after seeing how one of these models would have appeared to the buyer when new.
Tom
Almost forgot; email addy is tarcher@smcredit.com
Just my experience Ken, in regular lighting conditions, my best guns have a black and white appearance.
If you hit them with much light, they all are deep brown.
It certainly appears that 'Marks 21' 'A' grade has a case colored `trigger plate.
Perhaps he'll share a vague reference point of it's serial number.
It does not appear to have it's frame refinished.
Problem is Ken, trying to get a reference point from pictures is near impossible.
Depending on the lighting, the colors on the the barrels, the case coloring, and the wood can change dramatically.
I'm not near a puter with my pictures and files but my A grade is 25k something
I wouldn't share the number without your permission.
Interesting comparison.
I'm sure most have seen this on GB.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497898390Ken,
I keep looking at your pics hoping to see my Flues barrels.
