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Posted By: Drew Hause Steel Strength - 02/15/14 03:09 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=ycUOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA614&lpg
A Manual of Rules, Tables and Date For Mechanical Engineers, 1891 by Daniel Kinnear Clark

Wrought Iron 23-28 long tons = 51,500 – 63,000 psi (lbs/sq. inch)
Cast Iron 10.5 long tons = 23,500 psi

http://books.google.com/books?id=czsyAQA...p;q&f=false
The Mechanical Engineer's Pocket-book of Tables, Formulae, Rules and Data: A Handy Book of Reference for Daily Use in Engineering Practice, 1893 by Daniel Kinnear Clark

Siemens 26-28 long tons = 58,000-62,700 psi
Whitworth 29.5-30 long tons = 66,000-67,200 psi

Some of these numbers are very likely marketing hyperbole:

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced in 1889, 100,000 psi
Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931, 115,000-120,000 psi

Remington 1902 catalog stated Remington Ordnance Steel (introduced in 1897 for the 1894 Hammerless Double) had a tensile strength 110,000 lbs per sq. inch with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

Marlin Model 21 Pump, introduced in 1907, “Special Smokeless Steel” 100,000 psi


S.A. Buturlin was a Russian Ornithologist who also published extensively on Hunting and Sporting Arms, including “Shotgun and Shooting It” in 1929; similar in scope as W.W. Greener’s “The Gun”
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3524270

He referenced a 1905 study which I am unable to find

Steel Type............Max PSI (lbs/sq in)
Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626
Typical 1905 Barel Steel --- 64,000
Winchester Standard Ordnance Steel ----- 39,400 (seems low?)
Winchester Nickel --- 88,600
Krupp Special -------- 85,340
Krupp 5 M ------------ 92,450
Bohler Antinit -------- 116,630

What is Krupp 5M?

Hunter Arms never made any psi claims, only this:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_23/SL3023023.pdf Feb. 26 1898
Our famous Crown Steel (introduced in 1893 for the Pigeon Gun) barrels will now be put on our No. 2, $80 list gun regularly, with an option on the Damascus if preferred. After years of use on our No. 3 guns, we can cheerfully say that our Crown Steel barrels are a decided success in every way. In addition to this very important change we now offer you an entirely new design in engraving on this grade. It is neat and in keeping with a gun of this description
In regard to our No. 3 gun, $100 list, we come to you with something entirely new in gun barrels called Nitro steel. For months and months we have been testing these barrels to fully demonstrate to ourselves their qualities, and the result is most satisfactory. This Nitro steel comes the nearest to the Whitworth fluid steel of any gun barrel ever offered to the trade.

And for comparison:
AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel – 64,000 psi
AISI 4140 Chrome Moly – 95,000-100,000 but can be heat treated to much higher

I would be very happy if an engineer checked my math and numbers!

Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 02/15/14 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
http://books.google.com/books?id=ycUOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA614&lpg
A Manual of Rules, Tables and Date For Mechanical Engineers, 1891 by Daniel Kinnear Clark

Wrought Iron 23-28 long tons = 51,500 – 63,000 psi (lbs/sq. inch)
Cast Iron 10.5 long tons = 23,500 psi

http://books.google.com/books?id=czsyAQA...p;q&f=false
The Mechanical Engineer's Pocket-book of Tables, Formulae, Rules and Data: A Handy Book of Reference for Daily Use in Engineering Practice, 1893 by Daniel Kinnear Clark

Siemens 26-28 long tons = 58,000-62,700 psi
Whitworth 29.5-30 long tons = 66,000-67,200 psi

Some of these numbers are very likely marketing hyperbole:

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced in 1889, 100,000 psi
Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931, 115,000-120,000 psi

Remington 1902 catalog states Remington Ordnance Steel has a tensile strength 110,000 lbs per sq. inch with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

Marlin Model 21 Pump, introduced in 1907, “Special Smokeless Steel” 100,000 psi


S.A. Buturlin was a Russian Ornithologist who also published extensively on Hunting and Sporting Arms, including “Shotgun and Shooting It” in 1929; similar in scope as W.W. Greener’s “The Gun”
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3524270

He referenced a 1905 study which I am unable to find

Steel Type............Max PSI (lbs/sq in)
Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626
Typical 1905 Barel Steel --- 64,000
Winchester Standard Ordnance Steel ----- 39,400 (seems low?)
Winchester Nickel --- 88,600
Krupp Special -------- 85,340
Krupp 5 M ------------ 92,450
Bohler Antinit -------- 116,630

What is Krupp 5M?

Hunter Arms never made any psi claims, only this:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_23/SL3023023.pdf Feb. 26 1898
Our famous Crown Steel (introduced in 1893 for the Pigeon Gun) barrels will now be put on our No. 2, $80 list gun regularly, with an option on the Damascus if preferred. After years of use on our No. 3 guns, we can cheerfully say that our Crown Steel barrels are a decided success in every way. In addition to this very important change we now offer you an entirely new design in engraving on this grade. It is neat and in keeping with a gun of this description
In regard to our No. 3 gun, $100 list, we come to you with something entirely new in gun barrels called Nitro steel. For months and months we have been testing these barrels to fully demonstrate to ourselves their qualities, and the result is most satisfactory. This Nitro steel comes the nearest to the Whitworth fluid steel of any gun barrel ever offered to the trade.

And for comparison:
AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel – 64,000 psi
AISI 4140 Chrome Moly – 95,000-100,000 but can be heat treated to much higher

I would be very happy if an engineer checked my math and numbers!

Krupp M grade Flustahl means Molybedenum added-- Krupp A means a austenetic grade of stainless steel- antitinit (rust free) or rost frei wir Sie spreken Deutsch mein Fruend!

You might want to read the great book "The House of Krupp" sometime, Herr Drewbie!
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Steel Strength - 02/15/14 07:32 PM
First time I've ever seen where someone is saying that Winchester's pre-1930 Nickel Steel is stronger that their later Proof Steel. Is there anything to this allegation?
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/15/14 07:43 PM
Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced in 1889; 100,000 psi.
Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931; 115,000-120,000 psi.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 02/15/14 09:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced in 1889; 100,000 psi.
Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931; 115,000-120,000 psi.
and WPS also added to the M12 to replace the earlier Nickel steel, ditto the M54 with Nickel steel, later WPS on the M70-- all "running changes"- Betcha a Maurice Chevalier straw hat that the brains at WRA wished they had never fooled with the ill-fated stainless steel barrels in the mid to late 1920's- what a Fubar!!
Posted By: Virginian Re: Steel Strength - 02/15/14 10:48 PM
Stainless steels, especially the 300 series austenitic steels, are more likely to be chosen for their corrosion resistance than their strength. Tensile is usually in the 65 kpsi range, although 430 stainless does hit 95 kpsi. A lot of good guns have been built with 400 series stainless.
SAE 4140 is a normal modern choice for gunmaking steels, has good machineability and the tensile strength at 95 kpsi is sufficient to allow fairly light weight.
If you want really strong stuff, go to the maraging steels that Remington uses for their flush Full steel rated choke tube. Tensile up to 510 kpsi and yield up to 351 kpsi. I had never heard of them before RemChokes, but I have since had several extreme duty industrial parts made out of it with excellent success. THAT is tough stuff.
Posted By: RichardBrewster Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 12:38 AM
Drew, What you are doing now and the discussion that it is producing are the greatest contribution to understanding the strength of these old barrels since Sherman Bell, Buck Hamlin and perhaps others "found out for themselves" what it would take to blow up a set of decrepit old barrels. Being a mechanical/technical moron, I have nothing to contribute to the discussion other than appreciation. As a collector of 100+ year old Damascus and fluid steel guns, I watch with great interest from the sidelines.
Posted By: Mike Hunter Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 01:16 AM
Yes, I agree that the numbers for Winchester's Standard Barrel Steel seems very low, I suspect that the true numbers are equal to or greater than SAE 1018 at 64K PSI.

SAE 1018 is about the lowest grade of steel that there is

V/R

Mike
Posted By: Rocketman Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 01:44 AM
Drew, a quick "once over" of your numbers looks good to me. The discussion is progressing nicely! Good topic. Thanks. I'll check a bit deeper in the near future (taxes!!!)

DDA
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 01:44 AM
This is what I found in "The Art of Shooting" by Charles Lancaster, 6th edition 1898:



Lord Walsingham on Damascus and Whitworth Barrels, interesting point of view!
(or point of sound…) Any doubt, that he hasn't enough experience? ;-)

Gunwolf
Posted By: Dick_dup1 Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 12:19 PM
"I would be very happy if an engineer checked my math and numbers! "

I'm not sure what you are requesting? What math and numbers do you want checked?

As to veracity of numbers published by manufacturers, testing today is done to standardized methods and using calibrated NBS traceable equipment to assure uniformity.
I'm sure that early 20th century methodology was not as rigorous.-Dick
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 01:24 PM
Dick: please click on the links in the original post. There are several charts listing metal strength. I HOPE I found the correct numbers for TENSILE strength. The conversion from long tons to psi is easy, but I tend to transpose numbers frown
ALSO - in those charts I did not find tensile strength of Bessemer steel
Gotta be here somewhere
http://books.google.com/books?id=yyMAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq

I'm still searching for the tensile strength of Remington's Decarbonized Steel, which may only be another name for "Bessemer process homogenous wrought iron".

There is a reference here to 70,000, but that seems high
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...&PHPSESSID=

Also discussed here by Researcher and others
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2097
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 02:20 PM
I guess marketing hyperbole is nothing new smile

http://books.google.com/books?id=1AZCDSxVe14C&pg=PA282&lpg
“The tensile strength (of Bessemer steel) was declared to be 40 tons (89,600 pounds) per square inch.”
The Creators of the Age of Steel, 2011
William Tulloch Jeans

Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 03:30 PM
I was asked about a reference for 'Winchester Proof Steel'
http://books.google.com/books?id=9SvbdIv4OKYC&pg=PA57&lpg

Also found a statement that Winchester Ordnance Steel was 'Soft Bessemer' but no reference was given
Posted By: Small Bore Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 08:11 PM
Read Greener 'The Gun & its Development' pages 240-242, interesting summary of Birmingham Proof house trials of 36 different available barrel tubes.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 08:32 PM
Thank you. The Birmingham Proof House Trial of 1891 is reviewed here
http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowled...TEK8OtPYVA/edit
Unfortunately, I have not found any measurement nor estimate of pressures obtained with the increasing proof charges
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/16/14 09:52 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=tOZZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&lpg
Steel: Its History, Manufacture, Properties and Uses, 1880
James Stephen Jeans
p. 82 Bessemer: 28 tons or 63,000 psi
p. 189 Krupp: 70,000 – 80,000 psi
p. 416 Hay Steel by A.T. Hay, Burlington, Iowa: 90,000-100,000 psi
p. 521 Puddled Steel: 50 tons or 112,000 psi

http://books.google.com/books?id=tOZZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA522&lpg
American Board of Ordnance
Russian Iron: 62,644
English Rolled Iron: 56,532
American hammered: 53,913

The Tensile Strength of Steel
http://books.google.com/books?id=tOZZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA621&lpg

No mention of studies on pattern welded gun barrels frown

Posted By: Rocketman Re: Steel Strength - 02/17/14 02:07 AM
Dang, Drew! Don't get a brain hemorrhage with all this research. smile Nice work. Do point out that we need be very careful of fatigue on gun parts. That means that peak stress needs to be about 40% of yield, not ultimate tensile, to have about infinite fatigue life.

DDA
Posted By: vangulil Re: Steel Strength - 02/17/14 02:34 AM
Actually the very high strength Maraging steels are not necessarily tough. Their high tensile strength can come at the cost of low fracture toughness, also known as critical stress intensity factor. Brittle fracture can then occur due to small initial flaws, cracks for example, at relatively low stress levels.
The tradeoff between fracture toughness and tensile strength is part of the design selection process for steel, as typically higher values for one are associated with lower values for the others.

Pressure vessel design text books sometimes use failures of Maraging steel pressure vessels as examples of the results of steel selection focusing on tensile strength, while neglecting fracture toughness required due to possible initial flaws.

Posted By: L. Brown Re: Steel Strength - 02/17/14 02:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Gunwolf
This is what I found in "The Art of Shooting" by Charles Lancaster, 6th edition 1898:



Lord Walsingham on Damascus and Whitworth Barrels, interesting point of view!
(or point of sound…) Any doubt, that he hasn't enough experience? ;-)

Gunwolf


Note the choke on those guns: NONE! " . . . with cylinder 30in barrels, not choked". Then go back to Dig's thread on Brit 2 1/2" "High Pheasant" loads. One ounce, cylinder bore, and Walsingham is killing with regularity. We are talking grouse there rather than pheasants, but I believe those are the same guns he used on driven pheasants as well. In his book on shotgunning, Brister talks about the great patterns you get with cylinder at 25 yards. Most driven birds won't be a lot higher than that, other than in the places they specialize in the very high birds. And to get them that high, you need hills with shooters in valleys below, and tall trees help a lot as well.
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: Steel Strength - 02/17/14 07:35 PM
If you want to win a bet I would put money on IZH. The .45-70 double is very light (also available in 7,62x63, 9,3x54R though those lack wonderful handling of the American big bore chambering). Gee, I wonder if it could stand up to Buffalo Bore loadings? If the answer is yes then it is truly remarkable thing.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/17/14 11:25 PM
Apparently Remington had little concern about Decarbonized Steel

Model 1889 "For Nitro Powder"

Posted By: Chuck H Re: Steel Strength - 02/17/14 11:40 PM
Just an observation but the Winchester Standard Ordnance Steel number looks like it's probably a yield strength value as it is close to the yield for mild steel..
Posted By: Mike Hunter Re: Steel Strength - 02/18/14 02:52 AM
As I stated earlier, I believe that the numbers for the Winchester Standard Ordnance Steel is way too low. Winchester Ordnance Steel is equivalent to SAE 1018.
Posted By: bonny Re: Steel Strength - 02/18/14 03:05 AM
Don't forget sae 8620 steel if you are building a classic firearm now, very high strength with a tough core, produces very good colour case colours. I believe it was good enough for the m1 garand. Someone told me a lot of the old british heavy game rifles were made from steel that wasn't much better in its strength properties than modern mild steel. That could be wrong though.
Posted By: Virginian Re: Steel Strength - 02/18/14 11:51 AM
Originally Posted By: vangulil
Actually the very high strength Maraging steels are not necessarily tough. Their high tensile strength can come at the cost of low fracture toughness, also known as critical stress intensity factor. Brittle fracture can then occur due to small initial flaws, cracks for example, at relatively low stress levels.
The tradeoff between fracture toughness and tensile strength is part of the design selection process for steel, as typically higher values for one are associated with lower values for the others.
Pressure vessel design text books sometimes use failures of Maraging steel pressure vessels as examples of the results of steel selection focusing on tensile strength, while neglecting fracture toughness required due to possible initial flaws.

When you start getting into the intricate details of design all sorts of possible problems must be addressed with any material. Surface flaws and/or cracks are potential issues with just about any material. I suppose someone could utilize Maraging steel for a pressure vessel to reduce weight or something, but considering the potential results I doubt that idea would get past an initial process safety review with us.
I have found the maraging steels - not the very high tensile stuff, the 300+ kpsi stuff - to be both strong and pretty tough. Metallurgists sometimes don't know it all either. We had a round hollow piston that was hammering bagasse basically, and we were wearing them out wholesale. Talking with the equipment vendor, we decided to try making one out of hardened D2 tool steel. The metallurgists recommended against it because the tensile values are so erratic, but we were mainly concerned with compression and toughness, and even at the low end the tensile was more than adequate. The D2 outlasted everything else by 5 to one.
Posted By: Rocketman Re: Steel Strength - 02/18/14 05:54 PM
Steel similar to SAE 1018/1020 (about the lowest strength for steel) has been used successfully for firearms frames since "the beginning." The advantage of higher strength steel is that a lighter weight frame can have "the same" strength. However, since the modulus for steel (length of strain (movement) for a given load (tension/compression/shear) is basically uniform across the sweep of alloys (some stainless is a little lower). So, if one plans to take advantage of an alloy's higher strength, one must design for more relative movement among the lever work parts. Substituting a higher strength alloy will improve fatigue as long as "notch fracture" characteristics are properly allowed for. I'm not sure how gunmakers and designers view steel alloy selection, but it is for sure that they have a plethora, a pleather, I say, of choices in this day and age.

DDA
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Steel Strength - 02/18/14 08:13 PM
I don't know how to frame this reply, but I don't think there was the same catalog of steels available to the designers of early shotguns as there are today.
The greatest designs maximized the value of what was available.

Sometimes I get the impression people forget that.

Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/18/14 11:04 PM
Just communicated with Adam at METL. No word yet on the Failure Analysis.
He thinks they can test tensile strength on a segment of barrel and I'll likely have him do that on the two barrels I have that can be destroyed.
Posted By: Mike Hunter Re: Steel Strength - 02/19/14 01:37 AM
CZ

Pre 1900 steel selection was pretty limited, 1018 may be at the bottom of the barrel today, but pre-1900 it was about as good as it got. Spring steels such as 1095 were pretty expensive to make.
It wasn’t until the railroad, aviation and automotive industries forced the development of better and stronger steels. I believe it was General Motors which first developed SAE 4140 for use in car axles.
Today we all know the 41xx series steels as the most popular steel for barrels.
Posted By: pooch Re: Steel Strength - 02/19/14 02:10 AM
This one's a keeper. Nice work guys.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Steel Strength - 02/19/14 06:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Just communicated with Adam at METL. No word yet on the Failure Analysis.
He thinks they can test tensile strength on a segment of barrel and I'll likely have him do that on the two barrels I have that can be destroyed.


Drew
the tensile strength test should be a "hoop" tensile test to be valuable for this analysis. Damascus is likely to be stronger in hoop strength due to the way its made
Posted By: Pete Re: Steel Strength - 02/19/14 08:43 PM
A large variety of steels are available today. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Some steels at the high end of strength... say 180,000 psi can be hardened up to over 300,000 psi but they become more brittle and have much more notch sensitivity. This means a sharp interior edge is much more prone to cracking. It also significantly reduces fatigue life. So a cyclic load or eccentric load significantly reduces life. Stainless steel tends to gall if in contact with moving parts made out of the same stainless steel so different types of stainless are best used in these cases. Stainless also have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion which was forgotten by S&W when they first came out with the Mod 66 K frame revolver. The LAPD had some of these guns freeze up when fired with +P loads rapid fire. For a time, the LAPD forbade the use of ANY S&W until S&W changes the design to open up some tolerances.
Strength of materials is an interesting subject. The first shotguns with modern high strength steel were the Win 21 and Browning Superposed which came out about 1930/31.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Steel Strength - 02/21/14 01:48 PM
The data Drew posted seems to counter the common lore that the Winchester M12 was the first guns to use "modern steel". Maybe for the frame. But barrels were being made of alloyed steels of around 100,000 psi from about the turn of the century. These steels were proprietary alloys that were closely protected. But industrial espionage was a reality even then. Decades later, it would take a war and government intervention to drive standardization in the manufacturing of engineering materials and processes so that you can now say " I want this made with 4140, 1018, etc..". At least in the USA.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 02/21/14 06:49 PM
Nothing new under the sun brother

Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…(all) adding to their expertise metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."


1567 – Philip II of Spain invades the Low Countries, led by the Duke of Alva. Reformer monks Esch and Voes are burned at the stake in Brussels, and de Bras and Peregrine la Grange were hung in Valenciennes.
1566-1688 – Walloon (Belgium) and Huguenot (France) migration to Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, West Indies, South and North America taking their metallurgic knowledge with them.
1600 - 400 French and Walloon mercenaries of the Pope’s garrison offer their services to the Ottomans.

Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 02/21/14 07:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Nothing new under the sun brother

Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…(all) adding to their expertise metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."


1567 – Philip II of Spain invades the Low Countries, led by the Duke of Alva. Reformer monks Esch and Voes are burned at the stake in Brussels, and de Bras and Peregrine la Grange were hung in Valenciennes.
1566-1688 – Walloon (Belgium) and Huguenot (France) migration to Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, West Indies, South and North America taking their metallurgic knowledge with them.
1600 - 400 French and Walloon mercenaries of the Pope’s garrison offer their services to the Ottomans.

And the Prussian High Command rules against German Krupp Flustahl in their cannon and field artillery pieces, from about 1880 up to 1914, preferring bronze or brass alloys instead- go figure that one.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Steel Strength - 02/21/14 08:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Nothing new under the sun brother

Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…(all) adding to their expertise metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."


1567 – Philip II of Spain invades the Low Countries, led by the Duke of Alva. Reformer monks Esch and Voes are burned at the stake in Brussels, and de Bras and Peregrine la Grange were hung in Valenciennes.
1566-1688 – Walloon (Belgium) and Huguenot (France) migration to Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, West Indies, South and North America taking their metallurgic knowledge with them.
1600 - 400 French and Walloon mercenaries of the Pope’s garrison offer their services to the Ottomans.



Drew--Christian soldiers were the shock troops of the Ottoman Empire for a very long time. Google Janissary.
Posted By: Mike Hunter Re: Steel Strength - 02/22/14 12:37 AM
Gun companies got their steel from steel mills, I don't know of any gun company that smelted their own steel. The major suppliers for Winchester's barrel steel were the Midvale Steel Co and the Crucible Steel Co. Looking at the old steel catalogues, they had no issues listing the make-up of the steels.
Posted By: 1cdog Re: Steel Strength - 02/23/14 10:09 PM
Any thoughts on the strength of Whitworth steel barrels from 1930?

Thanks!
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/14/14 01:05 PM
Spoke again to METL about tensile strength testing. They need 4" of the muzzle end but without choke (to save on machining cost), so unless already cut probably 6". If anyone has whacked off barrel ends, I'd like to test both pattern welded and fluid steel. It would save $ just to send what I need, but I'll want to document the maker and rough DOM.
Depending on the amount of machining time to prepare the specimen, the cost will be $50-$70.
Posted By: Dennis Potter Re: Steel Strength - 03/15/14 01:30 AM
Drew,
If needed, I can supply the needed Damascus barrel section. Just please let me know, best to email dennispotter@att.net or call 414 425 4830. And I will contribute to costs also.
Dennis
Posted By: craigd Re: Steel Strength - 03/16/14 02:14 AM
I noticed they want the sample from the muzzle. Maybe, a section from where the barrel might be subject to the highest pressure would be interesting. A sample that will be or already is xrayed might give clues about predictability.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/16/14 02:46 AM
Craig: here is the response from the metallurgical engineer at METL. Whether from the muzzle or the breech, the barrel will need to be machined to a standard thickness.

We'd be machining flat tensile specimens so we'd need at a minimum 3 inches of barrel length. Our machinist suspects the least taper of wall thickness at the (muzzle). We'd probably be making 0.250" reduced section or 0.160" reduced section samples.
There are two charges associated: the machining charge for preparing the samples and the testing charge for pulling them. We base the machining cost off of how hard the material is (how much it degrades the cutting tools) so I'm not really sure what to expect with this Damascus material. The low end charge for soft material (aluminum, magnesium, etc.) is $25/sample and the high end charge for hard materials (superalloys) is $55/sample. The cost of machining should fall in that range. The cost of testing is a flat $17.50/sample.
Posted By: gil russell Re: Steel Strength - 03/16/14 03:09 AM
Just for fun, I have a WILLIAM Greener (not WW) Damascus barrel set, London address that says, in addition to the name and address: "Barrels Indestructable by Gunpowder"
C. 1866
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/16/14 02:14 PM
William must have borrowed that from that other Greener fella

"Laminated Steel Indestructible By Gunpowder"

Greener pinfire



Greener percussion double



The L.C. Smith listing in the 1908 Sears, Roebuck & Co. Catalogue No. 117 included “Bored For Nitro Powder” (both Armor and Damascus barrels) and the Notice “All our guns are tested with heavy loads and cannot burst except by carelessness, obstruction in the barrel or improper home loaded shells with nitro or dense powder.”
That last sentence pretty much says it all.
Posted By: Mark Ouellette Re: Steel Strength - 03/16/14 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause

“All our guns are tested with heavy loads and cannot burst except by carelessness, obstruction in the barrel or improper home loaded shells with nitro or dense powder.”


For Damascus barrels in as new condition that claim is true today!
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/21/14 03:45 PM
I've now received, or are in transit, 10 pattern welded and 3 fluid steel barrel segments for tensile strength testing. After METL completes the Failure Analysis, I'll take them together for testing. We all fully recognize this will not represent a statistically significant study, nor should the testing reassure anyone as the strength or integrity of YOUR barrel, but this should be interesting smile I would still like a piece of a very low grade JABC junker if someone has a barrel out in the barn.
Of particular significance is the fact that the freshly cut, not cleaned barrel, some with terrible bore pitting and corrosion, has a wall surface that looks like any other freshly cut metal AND NO ORANGE LACE as mythology would have us believe! I'll probably pick the worse looking surface for METL to examine under microscopy to confirm the absence of interlaminar rust.

Special thanks to all those who have contributed in some way, esp. Dennis Potter:

Dan Wildhaber
Mike Brown
Will Evans
Chris Helms
Phil Haycock
Jason Marks
Clifford A Russell
Stephen Helsley
Monty McGee
Mike Novy
Joe Dreisch
Gil Russell
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/24/14 12:25 AM
Don't see no stinkin' orange lace smile

Gerald Hunter “Don’t Blow Your Head Off!” Gun Digest 1962
Composite barrel metals are brittle, to begin with. The laminations were put together without accurate control, so the walls are not uniformly strong. Each joint of forge-welded metals is a potential pocket of rust or corrosion which holds together today but which by tomorrow may be ready to bust wide open.
Damascus barrels, once thought safe with black powder, are no longer safe! They’re getting older every hour and those hidden rusty – and rusting – areas are growing larger, the barrel walls thinner, and that hundred-and-first shot may blow ‘em up.

A collection of the non-cleaned, non-etched, non-nothing freshly cut barrel walls, part of the soon to be tensile strength tested





I'll probably pick the worst bore and have Adam section and photomicrograph for interlaminar rust.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 03/24/14 11:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Don't see no stinkin' orange lace smile

Gerald Hunter “Don’t Blow Your Head Off!” Gun Digest 1962
Composite barrel metals are brittle, to begin with. The laminations were put together without accurate control, so the walls are not uniformly strong. Each joint of forge-welded metals is a potential pocket of rust or corrosion which holds together today but which by tomorrow may be ready to bust wide open.
Damascus barrels, once thought safe with black powder, are no longer safe! They’re getting older every hour and those hidden rusty – and rusting – areas are growing larger, the barrel walls thinner, and that hundred-and-first shot may blow ‘em up.

A collection of the non-cleaned, non-etched, non-nothing freshly cut barrel walls, part of the soon to be tensile strength tested





I'll probably pick the worst bore and have Adam section and photomicrograph for interlaminar rust. Hey Dr. Drew- check your PMS messages. I just offered you a set of D grade Damascus barrels from a Lifter 12 bore Parker--How does that strike you- great early series barrels from the Brothers of Parker- yeah!!
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Steel Strength - 03/24/14 03:38 PM
Drew,

I'm glad that you posted the picture of these barrels. Of course, I knew that there would be no "orange lace", or any indication of the laminations. But, a picture is worth a thousand words.

When making damascus steel knife blades, the damascus pattern is not visible during the grinding and sanding before etching. It appears to be a mono steel. The pattern only becomes visible after etching.

There was a question in an old thread, about the barrel grinder's contribution to the creation of the damascus pattern. They had none. The damascus pattern was not visible to them, during their work.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/24/14 03:48 PM
Thanks Steve, and BTW I'm going to have a number of duplicate tube segments which I'll send you after taking everything to METL

Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Steel Strength - 03/25/14 11:24 AM
WOW!! Thanks Drew!

The guys at the local gun shops won't let me put etchant on the barrels of the guns that they have in inventory. wink
Posted By: Jawjadawg Re: Steel Strength - 03/25/14 02:17 PM
I'm picking up a gun from my local smith this week. He had a barrel full of old barrels that I will take a look at. Good chance there's a few jabc 's to be found
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 03/25/14 02:25 PM
Thanks for looking Will. I do still need a couple of junker Twist barrels, and just 8" or so of the muzzle end (will save on mailing).
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 03/26/14 03:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Thanks for looking Will. I do still need a couple of junker Twist barrels, and just 8" or so of the muzzle end (will save on mailing).
So if you want a piece of my Lifter Parker 11 bore, 8" from the muzzles back, I guess it's either "hacksaw City" in a vise- or perhaps an abrasive chop-saw to zip right on through. What are the terms of shipment there Dr. Drewbie??
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 04/14/14 10:02 PM
I'm taking the barrel segments by METL on Weds.

Pattern Welded
2 Syracuse Forging & Gun Co., Batavia ‘New Baker’, Damascus Twist, 1888
2 Ithaca Crass, Damascus Twist, c. 1891
2 Parker Grade 0, Stub Twist, 1891
L.C. Smith, Twist, 1902
2 Crescent No. 8 Knickerbocker, 3 Rod Oxford, c. 1905
Wm. Powell Birmingham, 3 Rod Oxford
Unknown English maker 3 Rod Oxford
Unknown source 4 Rod Oxford
Parker D4 4 Rod Turkish

Fluid Steel
Smith No. 00 Armor Steel, 1898
Krupp Essen – unknown maker
Remington 3200 c. 80s before barrel steel change from 1140 carbon steel to 4140 (Settlement participation eligibility ended 12-1-1996)
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 04/22/14 07:49 PM
Add a 'Belgian Laminated Steel' JABC Twist barrel to the list above, and will test each tube (2 samples).

In light of the unfortunate 'Zircon' saga, and just to document this is for real, here's the Tensile Strength testing quote from METL. Obviously science doesn't come cheap, and I sure hope it turns out to be worth it smile

PRICE QUOTATION FOR METALLURGICAL TESTING OF 13 BARREL SEGMENTS

Per your request the following quotation is submitted for testing of the components submitted to determine the materials and processes used in its manufacture. Testing is to include preparation, analysis, examinations, photographs, and report.

Machining of 17 tensile specimens from the 13 samples ($32.50/sample): $552.50
Testing of 17 tensile specimens ($17.50/sample): $297.50
Photomacro/micrographs (5 estimated at $15.00 each): $75.00 Chemical composition of Smith No. 00 Armor Steel via OES: $112.50
Short Report – Including photographs of the tensile specimen and machine setup of the English 3 Rod Oxford as well as short report compiling all data: $78.75
Estimated job total: $1116.25
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 04/30/14 06:08 PM
In order to get a better idea of what, exactly, went into Pattern Welded iron and steel, I reviewed these and other documents
http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowled...Q/preview?pli=1
It should be noted that the references are almost all English, and I've found nothing specific to c. 1900 Belgian iron and steel sources, recognizing that likely all U.S., and most English makers used Belgian 'rough forged tubes'.

Early 1800s
Horse shoes (Spain) and horse-nail stubs, ox irons, scrap stub-iron, worn scythes.
Broken coach-springs
“Soft steel, which is decarbonized in the course of manufacture.”

Mid-1800s
Appleton's Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering 1873 - “It would be difficult to define what scrap iron is, or what it is not, being composed of everything in iron that has previously been manufactured, as well as of the cuttings from the various manufactories...”
“…old horse-nail-stubs are now so scarce as to be almost obsolete.”
“Swedish iron, known by the mark CCND, and coach-springs, form an excellent combination for Damascus barrels.”
“Among the scraps usually thought to be best are old chains that have been used for many years, the wear and rust of time having left only the best elements of the iron.”
Clippings of saws, steel pens.

c. 1900
“The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores.”

The Gun and Its Development, 8th Edition, 1907 William Wellington Greener
Pig-iron obtained from a mixture of the best ores is placed in a furnace, melted, and cleansed from all dross by puddling — the dross, being much lighter than the iron, rises to the surface, and is skimmed off. When sufficiently cleansed, the draw-plates of the furnace are lowered, the heat reduced thereby, and the liquid iron whilst cooling gathered and worked into blooms of about 1 cwt. each. The puddler takes the bloom with a pair of tongs, runs with it to the tilt hammer and hands it over to the shingler, who, by dexterously turning the metal under the hammer, forms it into a square block and passes it to the roller; it is then passed through the various rolls until of the required size, and drawn out into a bar of about ten feet in length. The hammering under the heavy tilt condenses the metal, and causes the dross and scale to fly off.
If scrap steel is used, it is treated in the same way. But if new metal is employed, the finest qualities of rolled bars are chosen; the steels suitable are open hearth (Siemens) and ingot steels produced by modern methods, if low in carbon.
On account of its purity and uniformity, best Swedish steel is most usually preferred.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: Steel Strength - 04/30/14 08:38 PM
Drew, Swedish steel to this day is still considered excellent. When I was young and in the tool room we used a lot of Swedish tool bits for lathe work. I seem to remember the name Mora on them. I'll have to look and see if I still have some.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 04/30/14 08:53 PM
Would appear that CCND was RUSSIAN from Demidoff's iron works at Nischnetagilsk.

1832
http://books.google.com/books?id=i80-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA74&lpg

1843
http://books.google.com/books?id=3u01AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA420&lpg

1857
http://books.google.com/books?id=r_NZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&lpg
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Steel Strength - 05/01/14 01:34 PM
These old documents on steel and iron manufacturing, are a valuable resource for our research. I have only searched for documents in the English language. I can't help but wonder if there may be similar resources that were published in French. If we could access and translate steel and iron publications in the French language, perhaps we could find more complete information on the materials used in Belgian barrels.

I know a gentleman in France who is a knifemaker, but who also worked in some of the museums in France. I plan to contact him to see if he can direct us to additional information.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/01/14 03:03 PM
Steve: I bet there are some old hay rakes rusting in barns near you. A piece of tine might reflect c. 1900 steel?

There are some French resources here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...zJ9Q/edit?pli=1
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Steel Strength - 05/01/14 06:09 PM
Drew,

I think that you are quite correct that we can learn a lot by examining items that were made during the 19th century. I really would like to see some items from Belgium.

BTW; I couldn't get the link in your last post to work.

Coincidentally, a friend of mine very recently made a knife from some parts from an old buggy. Below are a couple photos of the knife. You can clearly see the inclusions and banded layering of materials in the blade. The blade was etched slightly with ferric chloride to display these features.

The gentleman who made this knife is Master Bladesmith, Lin Rhea. Lin is the blacksmith at the Historic Arkansas Museum, in Little Rock. Below is Lin's own description of the knife and the materials used in making it.

I just finished a hunting knife made from 19th century buggy parts. The blade I forged from a small piece of the axle spring. The guard is a bit of the wrought iron tongue strap. The wood is the last scrap of the tongue that was not dry rotted.


Posted By: craigd Re: Steel Strength - 05/01/14 06:55 PM
Hat's off to you Doc Drew for the digging in the old literature that you do, as well as the modern analysis. Though there seems to be mentions of best iron and steel, the description of the various scrap used and the experience that they could work with that material might suggest that it was not necessary to work with highly refined material.

I wonder if the images of the size and distribution of the inclusion in the damascus are a sort of benchmark fluid steel had to meet, cost effectively, to take over and exceed.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/01/14 08:06 PM
Sorry guys - I corrected the link
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...zJ9Q/edit?pli=1

Relevant information. One can imagine that removing all the cast iron from the scrap simply by visual inspection would be an inexact process.

Appleton's Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering 1873
“It would be difficult to define what scrap iron is, or what it is not, being composed of everything in iron that has previously been manufactured, as well as of the cuttings from the various manufactories...”

The Gunsmith’s Manual; a complete Handbook for the American Gunsmith, Being a Practical Guide to All Branches of the Trade J.P Stelle & William B. Harrison 1883
“Best Materials for Gun Barrels”
The barrels of the finest and best guns, either Damascus, or other steel, or iron, are formed as made in Europe and England, of scraps of iron suited to the purpose, and selected with great skill and the greatest possible care. These scraps, which are usually bought up about the country, are placed in what is called a "shaking tub"-a vessel which is violently shaken and rocked about by machinery or otherwise(depending on the particular locality)for the purpose of scouring and brightening the scraps. This done, they are carefully picked over by adepts, who cull out the unsuitable pieces. So rigid is the culling that it often happens that out of a ton of scoured scraps not more than one hundred pounds weight of them are chosen as suitable for going into the best barrels.
Among the scraps usually thought to be best are old chains that have been used for many years, the wear and rust of time having left only the best elements of the iron. The Damascus steel, which has attained to so high a reputation, got it by being manufactured out of old coach springs. Of course it is not all made of coach springs now, but it was in years ago; agents then traveled all over the country hunting and buying them up, paying a much higher price for an old broken spring than a new one would cost it's owner.

Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904, “Gun and Small-Arms Factories” by A.E. Patrick
“The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal…a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed.”

The hay rake on my grandparent's place in Missouri is probably still there frown
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Steel Strength - 05/02/14 12:01 PM
Drew--Still can't get your link to work.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/02/14 12:39 PM
Sorry guys. The aliens that run Google decide to mess with my site once yearly apparently for their own entertainment frown

Try clicking on the Home Page
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home
then scroll down to Table of Contents and click on
Puraye's Le Damas & Documents Historiques Français et Belgique

Please let me know if that works.
As a last resort you may need to open the docs in Google Chrome smirk
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Steel Strength - 05/02/14 02:16 PM
Drew,

These are indeed interesting documents. But, I have been looking for information that is a step back in the manufacturing process; that of the making of the iron and steel. Among my questions are; what where they speaking of when they used the words "iron" and "steel"? Terminology changes over time, so what was the understanding of these terms, contemporary to the manufacture of damascus barrels?

My next question is, from where did the steel and iron used in gun barrels originate? Was it primarily newly manufactured stock, or from scrap? Many sources indicate recycled scrap in the early years, changing to new stock later. When did this change occur? If the steel was of scrap carriage springs and scythe blades, where did the steel for the springs and blades originate?

In the early years of steel and iron manufacturing, the trace elements came primarily from the iron ore. There can be found analysis' of ore samples from different mines around the world. What mine did the ore come from to make the steel for carriage springs and scythe blades?

There are quite a number of old treatises that can be found on the manufacture of iron and steel. Most that I have found were written by British authors; since I have only searched in the English language. I would expect that similar works were written by French authors. The British documents include very good information, but I wonder if we could find more complete information on Belgian made barrels by looking into documents written closer to the region where they were made. As the French and Belgian firearms industries worked closely together, I think it possible that we could find valuable metallurgical information in French language documents. While most of the Belgian documentation may have been lost, there may be documents in France that consist of correspondence between their industries, as well as shared production techniques.

Essentially, I am looking to back into an analysis of the steel and iron in gun barrels by examining contemporary steel and iron production in that region of the world.

Below is a link to a very good metallurgical book from 1889.
A Treatice on the Metallurgy of Iron
Posted By: Linn Re: Steel Strength - 05/03/14 07:49 PM
Maybe another viewpoint

Japanese swordsmithing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This date March 2011 needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2011)
Visual glossary of Japanese sword terms

Japanese swordsmithing is the labour-intensive bladesmithing process developed in Japan for forging traditionally made bladed weapons (nihonto)[1][2] including katana, wakizashi, tantō, yari, naginata, nagamaki, tachi, uchigatana, nodachi, ōdachi, kodachi, and ya (arrow).

Japanese sword blades were often forged with different profiles, different blade thicknesses, and varying amounts of grind. Wakizashi and tantō were not simply scaled-down katana; they were often forged without ridge (hira-zukuri) or other such forms which were very rare on katana.

Contents

1 Traditional methods
1.1 Steel production
1.2 Construction
1.2.1 Forging
1.2.2 Assembly
1.2.3 Geometry (shape and form)
1.2.4 Heat treating
1.3 Metallurgy
1.3.1 Metallography
1.4 Decoration
1.5 Polishing
1.6 Mountings
2 Modern swordsmithing
3 Commercial folded steel swords
4 Notable swordsmiths
5 See also
6 References
7 External links

Traditional methods
Steel production

The steel used is known as tamahagane (玉鋼:たまはがね?), or "jewel steel" (tama - ball or jewel, hagane - steel). Tamahagane is produced from iron sand, a source of iron ore, and mainly used to make Samurai swords, such as the katana, and some tools.
Diagram of a tatara and bellows

The smelting process used is different from the modern mass production of steel. A clay vessel about 4 ft (1.2 m) tall, 12 ft (3.7 m) long, and 4 ft (1.2 m) wide is constructed. This is known as a tatara. After the clay tub has set, it is fired until dry. A charcoal fire is started from soft pine charcoal. Then the smelter will wait for the fire to reach the correct temperature. At that point he will direct the addition of iron sand known as satetsu. This will be layered in with more charcoal and more iron sand over the next 72 hours. Four or five people need to constantly work on this process. It takes about a week to build the tatara and complete the iron conversion to steel. The steel is not allowed to become fully molten, and this allows both high and low carbon material to be created and separated once cooled. When complete, the Tatara is broken to remove the steel bloom, known as a kera. At the end of the process the tatara will have consumed about 10 short tons (9.1 t) of satetsu and 12 short tons (11 t) of charcoal leaving about 2.5 short tons (2.3 t) of kera, from which less than a ton of tamahagane can be produced.[3] A single kera can typically be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, making it many times more expensive than modern steels.[4]
Tamahagane

The swordsmiths will carefully break the kera apart, and separate the various carbon steels. The lowest carbon steel is called hocho-tetsu, which is used for the shingane (translated as "core-steel") of the blade. The high carbon tamahagane and higher carbon steel, called nabe-gane, will then be forged in alternating layers, using very intricate methods to form the kawagane (or, "skin steel"). The most useful process is the folding, where the metals are forge welded, folded, and welded again, as many as 16 times. The folding removes impurities and helps even out the carbon content, while the alternating layers combine hardness with ductility to greatly enhance the toughness.[5][6][7] Currently, tamahagane is only made three or four times a year by Nittoho and Hitachi Metals[8] during winter in a wood building and is only sold to the master swordsmiths to use once it is made.
Construction

The forging of a Japanese blade typically took many days or weeks, and was considered a sacred art, traditionally accompanied by a large panoply of Shinto religious rituals.[9] As with many complex endeavors, rather than a single craftsman, several artists were involved. There was a smith to forge the rough shape, often a second smith (apprentice) to fold the metal, a specialist polisher, and even a specialist for the edge itself. Often, there were sheath, hilt, and tsuba specialists as well.
Forging
Katana made by folding, showing alternating layers.
Forge scenes, print from an Edo period book, Switzerland, Museum of Ethnography of Neuchâtel

The steel bloom, or kera, that is produced in the tatara contains steel that varies greatly in carbon content, ranging from wrought iron to pig iron. Three types of steel are chosen for the blade; a very low carbon steel called hocho-tetsu is used for the core of the blade, called the shingane. The high carbon steel, called tamahagane, and the remelted pig iron, called nabe-gane,[10] are combined to form the outer skin of the blade, called kawagane.[6][11][12] Only about 1/3 of the kera produces steel that is suitable for sword production.[13]

The best known part of the manufacturing process is the folding of the steel, where the swords are made by repeatedly heating, hammering and folding the metal. The process of folding metal to improve strength and remove impurities is frequently attributed to specific Japanese smiths in legend.

In traditional Japanese sword making, the low carbon hocho-tetsu is folded several times by itself, to purify it. This produces the soft metal, called shingane, to be used for the core of the blade. The high carbon tamahagane and the higher carbon nabe-gane are then forged in alternating layers. The nabe-gane is heated, quenched in water, and then broken into small pieces to help free it from slag. The tamahagane is then forged into a single plate, and the pieces of nabe-gane are piled on top, and the whole thing is forge welded into a single block, which is called the age-kitae process. The block is then elongated, cut, folded, and forge welded again. The steel can be folded transversely, (from front to back), or longitudinally, (from side to side). Often both folding directions are used to produce the desired grain pattern.[7] This process, called the shita-kitae, is repeated from 8 to as many as 16 times. After 20 foldings, (220, or about a million individual layers), there is too much diffusion in the carbon content, the steel becomes almost homogenous in this respect, and the act of folding no longer gives any benefit to the steel.[14] Depending on the amount of carbon introduced, this process forms either the very hard steel for the edge, called hagane, or the slightly less hardenable spring steel, called kawagane, which is often used for the sides and the back.[7]

During the last few foldings, the steel may be forged into several thin plates, stacked, and forge welded into a brick. The grain of the steel is carefully positioned between adjacent layers, with the exact configuration dependent on the part of the blade for which the steel will be used.[6]

Between each heating and folding, the steel is coated in a mixture of clay, water and straw-ash to protect it from oxidation and carburization. This clay provides a highly reducing environment. At around 1,650 °F (900 °C), the heat and water from the clay promote the formation of a wustite layer, which is a type of iron oxide formed in the absence of oxygen. In this reducing environment, the silicon in the clay reacts with wustite to form fayalite and, at around 2,190 °F (1,200 °C), the fayalite will become a liquid. This liquid acts as a flux, attracting impurities, and pulls out the impurities as it is squeezed from between the layers. This leaves a very pure surface which, in turn, helps facilitate the forge-welding process.[15][7][11] Due to the loss of impurities, slag, and iron in the form of sparks during the hammering, by the end of forging the steel may be reduced to as little as 1/10 of its initial weight.[16] This practice became popular due to the use of highly impure metals, stemming from the low temperature yielded in the smelting at that time and place. The folding did several things:
Blacksmith scene, print from an Edo period book, Museum of Ethnography of Neuchâtel, Switzerland.

It provided alternating layers of differing hardenability. During quenching, the high carbon layers achieve greater hardness than the medium carbon layers. The hardness of the high carbon steels combine with the ductility of the low carbon steels to form the property of toughness.[5][13]
It eliminated any voids in the metal.
It homogenized the metal, spreading the elements (such as carbon) evenly throughout - increasing the effective strength by decreasing the number of potential weak points.
It burned off many impurities, helping to overcome the poor quality of the raw Japanese steel.
It created up to 65000 layers, by continuously decarburizing the surface and bringing it into the blade's interior, which gives the swords their grain (for comparison see pattern welding).

Generally, swords were created with the grain of the blade (called hada) running down the blade like the grain on a plank of wood. Straight grains were called masame-hada, wood-like grain itame, wood-burl grain mokume, and concentric wavy grain (an uncommon feature seen almost exclusively in the Gassan school) ayasugi-hada. The difference between the first three grains is that of cutting a tree along the grain, at an angle, and perpendicular to its direction of growth (mokume-gane) respectively, the angle causing the "stretched" pattern. The blades that were considered the most robust, reliable, and of highest quality were those made in the Mino tradition, especially those of Magoroku Kanemoto. Bizen tradition, which specialized in mokume, and some schools of Yamato tradition were also considered strong warrior's weapons.[citation needed]
Assembly
Katana brique.png

In addition to folding the steel, high quality Japanese swords are also composed of various distinct sections of different types of steel. Known in China as bao gang 包钢 (literally "wrapped steel") since at least the Tang Dynasty, this manufacturing technique uses different types of steel in different parts of the sword to accentuate the desired characteristics in various parts of the sword beyond the level offered by differential tempering.[17]

The vast majority of modern katana and wakizashi are the maru (sometimes also called muku) type which is the most basic, with the entire sword being composed of one single steel. The kobuse type is made using two steels, which are called hagane (edge steel) and shingane (core steel). Honsanmai and shihozume types add the third steel, called kawagane (skin steel). There is almost an infinite number of ways the steel could be assembled, which often varied considerably from smith to smith.[6] Sometimes the hagane is "drawn out," (hammered into a bar), bent into a 'U' shaped trough, and the very soft shingane is inserted into the harder piece. Then they are forge welded together and hammered into the basic shape of the sword. By the end of the process, the two pieces of steel are fused together, but retain their differences in hardenability.[5][6] The more complex types of construction are typically only found in antique weapons, with the vast majority of modern weapons being composed of a single section, or at most two or three sections.

Another way is to assemble the different pieces into a block, forge weld it together, and then draw out the steel into a sword so that the correct steel ends up in the desired place.[7] This method is often used for the complex models, which allow for parrying without fear of damaging the side of the blade. To make honsanmai or shihozume types, pieces of hard steel are added to the outside of the blade in a similar fashion. The shihozume and soshu types are quite rare, but added a rear support.
Geometry (shape and form)
Question book-new.svg
This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (November 2010)
A range of Japanese blade types, from left to right: Naginata, Tsurugi or ken, Tantō, Uchigatana and Tachi.

As Japan entered the Bronze Age, the swords found in Japan were very similar in shape to those found in continental Asia, i.e., China or Korea, and the Japanese adopted the Chinese convention for sword terminology along with metallurgy and swordmaking technology, classifying swords into the (either straight or curved) single-edged variety called tou 刀 and the (straight) double-edged variety called ken 剣. There is some small overlap in that there were some double-edged curved swords such as Tulwars or Scimitars which were called Tou, because the curvature meant that the "front" edge was used in the overwhelming majority of instances.

Over time, however, the curved single-edged sword became so dominant a style in Japan that tou and ken came to be used interchangeably to refer to swords in Japan and by others to refer to Japanese swords. For example, the Japanese typically refer to Japanese swords as 日本刀 nihontou ("Japanese tou" i.e. "Japanese (single-edged) blade"), while the character ken 剣 is used in such terms as kendo and kenjutsu. Modern formal usage often uses both characters in referring to a collection of swords, for example, in naming the The Japanese Sword Museum 日本美術刀剣博物館 .

The prototype of the Japanese sword was the chokuto 直刀, or "straight (single-edged) sword", a design that can be fairly described as a Japanese sword without any curvature, with a handle that is usually only a few inches long and therefore suitable for single-handed use only, with a sword guard that is prominent only on the front (where the edge is pointed) and back sides and sometimes only on the front side of the sword blade, and with a ring pommel. This design was moderately common in China and Korea during the Warring States and Han Dynasties, fading from popularity and disappearing during the Tang Dynasty. A number of such swords have been excavated in Japan from graves dating back to the kofun period.

As the chokuto evolved into the Japanese sword as it is known today[citation needed], it acquired its characteristic curvature and Japanese style fittings, including the long handle making it suitable for either one-handed or two-handed use, the non-protruding pommel, and a tsuba sword guard that protruded from the sword in all directions, i.e., that is not a cross piece or a guard for the edge or edge and back sides of the blade only but a guard intended to protect the hand on all sides of the blade. The shape of the Japanese tsuba evolved in parallel with Japanese swordsmithing and Japanese swordsmanship.[citation needed] As Japanese swordsmiths acquired the ability to achieve an extremely hard edge, Japanese swordsmanship evolved to protect the edge against chipping, notching, and breakage by parrying with the sides or backs of swords, avoiding edge-to-edge contact.[citation needed] This in turn resulted in the need to protect the sword hand from a sliding blade in parries on the sides and backs, i.e., parts of the blade other than the edge side, forming the rationale behind the Japanese styled tsuba[citation needed], which protrudes from the blade in every direction.

This style of parrying in Japanese swordsmanship has also resulted in some antique swords that have been used in battle exhibiting notches on the sides or backs of blades.[citation needed]
Heat treating
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A katana, showing the hardened edge. The inset shows the nioi, which is the bright, wavy line following the hamon. The nioi is made up of niye, which are single martensite crystals surrounded by darker pearlite.
The curving of a katana as it cools at different rates.

Having a single edge also has certain advantages, one of the most important being that the entire rest of the sword can be used to reinforce and support the edge, and the Japanese style of sword making takes full advantage of this. When forging is complete, the steel is not quenched or tempered in the conventional European fashion (i.e.: uniformly throughout the blade). Steel’s exact flex and strength vary dramatically with heat treating. If steel cools quickly it becomes martensite, which is very hard but brittle. Slower and it becomes pearlite, which bends easily and does not hold an edge. To maximize both the cutting edge and the resilience of the sword spine, a technique (which originated in China during the first century BC) is used. In this process, referred to as differential hardening or differential quenching, the sword is painted with layers of clay before heating—the mixture being closely guarded trade secrets of the various smiths, but generally containing clay and coal ash as the primary ingredients—with a thin layer or none at all on the edge of the sword, ensuring quick cooling to maximize the hardening for the edge. A thicker layer of clay on the rest of the blade causes slower cooling and creates softer, more resilient steel, allowing the blade to absorb shock without breaking.[18][19] This process is sometimes erroneously called differential tempering[17] but this is actually an entirely different form of heat treatment.

When steel with a carbon content of 0.7 percent is heated beyond 750 degrees C it enters the "austenite phase". When austenite is cooled very suddenly by quenching in water the structure changes into "martensite", which is an extremely hard form of steel. When austenite is allowed to cool slowly its structure changes into a mixture of ferrite and cementite, called pearlite, which is much softer than martensite. To produce a difference in hardness, the steel is cooled at different rates by controlling the thickness of the insulating layer. By carefully controlling the heating and cooling of the blade, Japanese swordsmiths were able to produce a blade that had a softer body and a hard edge, creating a superior weapon.[20] This process also has two side effects that have come to characterize Japanese swords: First, it makes the edge of the blade, which cools quickly and forms evenly dispersed cementite particles embedded within a ferrite matrix (typical of tempered martensite). When quenched, the uninsulated edge contracts, causing the sword to bend towards the edge, but the edge cannot contract fully before the martensite forms, because the rest of the sword remains hot and in a thermally expanded state. Because of the insulation, the sword spine remains hot and pliable for several seconds, but then contracts much more than the edge, bending away from the edge and aiding the smith in establishing the curvature of the blade. Second, the differentiated hardness and the methods of polishing the steel can result in the hamon 刃紋 (frequently translated as "tempering line" but really better translated as "tempering pattern"). The hamon is used as a factor to judge both the quality and beauty of the finished blade. The various hamon patterns result from the manner in which the clay is applied, and can also act as an indicator of the style of sword-making, and sometimes also as a signature for the individual smith. The differences in the hardenability of steels may be enhanced near the hamon, revealing layers or even different parts of the blade, such as the intersection between an edge made from hagane and sides made from kawagane.[21][22]
Antique Japanese wakizashi sword blade showing the horimono of a chrysanthemum.

If the thickness of the coating on the edge is balanced just right with the temperature of the water, the proper hardness can be produced without the need for tempering. However, in most cases, the edge will end up being too hard, so tempering the blade for a short time is usually required to bring the hardness down to a more suitable point. The ideal hardness is usually between HRc58--60 on the Rockwell hardness scale. Tempering is performed by heating the entire blade evenly to around 400 °F (204 °C), reducing the hardness in the martensite and turning it into a form of tempered martensite. The pearlite, on the other hand, does not respond to tempering, and does not change in hardness.[23]
Metallurgy

Tamahagane, as a raw material, is a highly impure metal. Formed in a bloomery process, the kera of sponge iron begins as an inhomogeneous mixture of wrought iron, steels, and pig iron. The pig iron contains more than 2% carbon. The tamahagane has about 1 to 1.5% carbon while the hocho iron contains about 0.2%. Steel that has a carbon content between tamahagane and hocho iron is called bu-kera, which is often resmelted with the pig iron to make saga-hagane, containing roughly 0.7% carbon. Most of the bu-kera, hocho iron and saga-hagane will be sold for making other items, like tools and knives, and only the best pieces of tamahagane, hocho iron, and pig iron are used for swordsmithing.

The various metals are also filled with slag, phosphorus and other impurities. Separation of the various metals from the kera was traditionally performed by breaking it apart with small hammers dropped from a certain height, and then examining the fractures, in a process similar to the modern Charpy impact test. The nature of the fractures are different for different types of steel. The tamahagane, in particular, contains pearlite, which produces a characteristic pearlescent-sheen on the crystals.[24]

During the folding process, most of the impurities are removed from the steel, continuously refining the steel while forging. By the end of forging, the steel produced was some of the purest steel-alloys of the ancient world. Due to the continuous heating, a good quantity of carbon is either extracted from the steel as carbon dioxide or redistributed more evenly through diffusion, leaving a nearly eutectoid composition (containing 0.77 to 0.8% carbon).[25][26] The hagane itself will generally end up with a composition that ranges from eutectoid to slightly hypoeutectoid (containing a carbon content under the eutectoid composition), giving enough hardenability without sacrificing ductility[27] The shingane, however, remains nearly pure iron, responding very little to heat treatment.[28] Cyril Stanley Smith, a professor of metallurgical history from MIT, performed an analysis of four different swords, each from a different century, determining the composition of the surface of the blades:[29]

c. 1940s -- Carbon (edge) 1.02%, Carbon (body) 1.02%, Manganese 0.37%, Silicon 0.18%, Phosphorus 0.015%, Copper 0.21%

c. 1800s -- Carbon (edge) 0.62%%, Carbon (body) 0.1%, Manganese 0.01%, Silicon 0.07%, Phosphorus 0.046%, Copper 0.01%

c. 1700s -- Carbon (edge) 0.69%, Carbon (body) 0.43%, Manganese 0.005%, Silicon 0.02%, Phosphorus 0.075%, Copper 0.01%

c. 1500s -- Carbon (edge) 0.5%, Carbon (body) 0.5%, Manganese 0.005%, Silicon 0.04%, Phosphorus 0.034%, Copper 0.01%

In 1993, Jerzy Piaskowski performed an analysis of a katana of the kobuse type by cutting the sword in half and taking a cross section. The analysis revealed a carbon content ranging from 0.6 to 0.8% carbon at the surface, but only 0.2% at the core.[30][31]

The steel in even the ancient swords may have sometimes come from whatever steel was available at the time. Due to its rarity in the ancient world, steel was usually recycled, so broken tools, nails and cookwear often provided a ready supply of steel. Even steel looted from enemies in combat was often valued for its use in swordsmithing.[32]

According to Smith, the different layers of steel are made visible during the polishing due to one or both of two reasons: 1.) Either the layers have a variation in carbon content, or 2.) they have variation in the content of slag inclusions. When the variation is due to slag inclusions by themselves, there will not be a noticeable effect near the hamon, where the yakiba meets the hira. Likewise, there will be no appreciable difference in the local hardness of the individual layers. However, when the patterns occur from a difference in carbon content, there will be distinct indications of this near the hamon, because the steel with higher hardenability will become martensite beyond the hamon while the adjacent layers will turn into pearlite. This leaves a distinct pattern of bright "nioi," which appear as bright streaks or lines that follow the layers a short distance away from the hamon and into the hira, giving the hamon a wispy or misty appearance. The patterns were most likely revealed during the polishing operation by using a method similar to lapping, without bringing the steel to a full polish, although sometimes chemical reactions with the polishing compounds may have also been used to provide a level of etching. The differences in hardness primarily appear as a difference in the microscopic scratches left on the surface. The harder metal produces shallower scratches, so it diffuses the reflected light, while the softer metal has deeper, longer scratches, appearing either shiny or dark depending on the viewing angle. However, a difference in slag inclusions generally appear as layers that are somewhat pitted while the adjacent layers are not.[33]
Metallography

Metallurgy did not arise as a science until the early 1900s. Before this, metallography was the primary method used for studying metals. Metallography is the study of the patterns in metals, the nature of fractures, and the microscopic crystal-formations. However, neither metallography as a science nor the crystal theory of metals emerged until the invention of the microscope.[34] The ancient swordsmiths had no knowledge of metallurgy, nor did they understand the relationship between carbon and iron. Everything was typically learned by a process of trial-and-error, apprecticeship, and, as sword-making technology was often a closely guarded secret, some espionage. Prior to the 1300s, very little attention was paid to the patterns as an aesthetic quality. However, the Japanese smiths often prided themselves on their understanding of the internal macro-structure of metals.

In Japan, steel-making technology was imported from China, most likely through Korea. The steel used in the Chinese swords, called "chi-kang" (combined steel), was similar to pattern welding, and edges of it were often forge welded to a back of soft iron, or "jou thieh." In trying to copy the Chinese method, the ancient smiths paid much attention to the various properties of steel, and worked to combine them to produce an internal macro-structure that would provide a similar combination of hardness and toughness. Like all trial-and-error, each swordsmith often attempted to produce an internal structure that was superior to swords of their predecessors, or even ones that were better than their own previous designs.[35] The harder metals provided strength, like "bones" within the steel, whereas the softer metal provided ductility, allowing the swords to bend before breaking. The Japanese smiths, especially in ancient times, would often display these inhomogeneities in the steel, especially on fittings like the guard, creating rough, natural surfaces by letting the steel rust or by pickling it in acid, making the internal structure part of the entire aesthetic of the weapon.

In later times, this effect was often imitated by partially mixing various metals like copper together with the steel, forming mokume (wood-eye) patterns, although this was unsuitable for the blade itself. After the 1300s, more attention began to be paid to the patterns in the blade as an aesthetic quality. Intentionally decorative forging-techniques were often employed, such as hammering dents in certain locations, which served only to create a mokume pattern when the sword was filed and polished into shape, or by intentionally forging-in layers of high slag content. By the 1600s, decorative hardening methods were often being used to increase the beauty of the blade, by shaping the clay. Hamons with trees, flowers, pill boxes, or other shapes became common during this era. By the 1800s, the decorative hamons were often being combined with decorative folding-techniques to create entire landscape-portraits, often portraying specific islands or scenery, crashing waves in the ocean, and misty mountain-peaks.[36]
Decoration
A section of an antique Japanese katana showing two grooves hi and the temper line hamon.

Almost all blades are decorated, although not all blades are decorated on the visible part of the blade. Once the blade is cool, and the mud is scraped off, the blade has designs and grooves cut into it. One of the most important markings on the sword is performed here: the file markings. These are cut into the tang, or the hilt-section of the blade, where they will be covered by a hilt later. The tang is never supposed to be cleaned: doing this can cut the value of the sword in half or more. The purpose is to show how well the blade steel ages. A number of different types of file markings are used, including horizontal, slanted, and checked, known as ichi-monji, ko-sujikai, sujikai, ō-sujikai, katte-agari, shinogi-kiri-sujikai, taka-no-ha, and gyaku-taka-no-ha. A grid of marks, from raking the file diagonally both ways across the tang, is called higaki, whereas specialized "full dress" file marks are called kesho-yasuri. Lastly, if the blade is very old, it may have been shaved instead of filed. This is called sensuki. While ornamental, these file marks also serve the purpose of providing an uneven surface which bites well into the tsuka, or the hilt which fits over it and is made from wood. It is this pressure fit for the most part that holds the tsuka in place during the strike, while the mekugi pin serves as a secondary method and a safety.

Some other marks on the blade are aesthetic: signatures and dedications written in kanji and engravings depicting gods, dragons, or other acceptable beings, called horimono. Some are more practical. The so-called "blood groove" or fuller does not in actuality allow blood to flow more freely from cuts made with the sword,[37] but is simply to reduce the weight of the sword while keeping structural integrity and strength.[37] Grooves come in wide (bo-hi), twin narrow (futasuji-hi), twin wide and narrow (bo-hi ni tsure-hi), short (koshi-hi), twin short (gomabushi), twin long with joined tips (shobu-hi), twin long with irregular breaks (kuichigai-hi), and halberd-style (naginata-hi).
Polishing
Japanese sword blade, sharpening stone, and water bucket at the 2008 Cherry Blossom Festival, Seattle Center, Seattle, Washington.
For more details on this topic, see Japanese sword polishing.

When the rough blade is completed, the swordsmith turns the blade over to a polisher called a togishi, whose job it is to refine the shape of a blade and improve its aesthetic value. The entire process takes considerable time, in some cases easily up to several weeks. Early polishers used three types of stone, whereas a modern polisher generally uses seven. The modern high level of polish was not normally done before around 1600, since greater emphasis was placed on function over form. The polishing process almost always takes longer than even crafting, and a good polish can greatly improve the beauty of a blade, while a bad one can ruin the best of blades. More importantly, inexperienced polishers can permanently ruin a blade by badly disrupting its geometry or wearing down too much steel, both of which effectively destroy the sword's monetary, historic, artistic, and functional value.
Mountings
For more details on this topic, see Japanese sword mountings.

In Japanese, the scabbard for a katana is referred to as a saya, and the handguard piece, often intricately designed as an individual work of art — especially in later years of the Edo period — was called the tsuba. Other aspects of the mountings (koshirae), such as the menuki (decorative grip swells), habaki (blade collar and scabbard wedge), fuchi and kashira (handle collar and cap), kozuka (small utility knife handle), kogai (decorative skewer-like implement), saya lacquer, and tsuka-ito (professional handle wrap, also named emaki), received similar levels of artistry.

After the blade is finished it is passed on to a mountings-maker, or sayashi (literally "Sheath Maker" but referring to those who make fittings in general). Sword mountings vary in their exact nature depending on the era, but generally consist of the same general idea, with the variation being in the components used and in the wrapping style. The obvious part of the hilt consists of a metal or wooden grip called a tsuka, which can also be used to refer to the entire hilt. The hand guard, or tsuba, on Japanese swords (except for certain twentieth century sabers which emulate Western navies') is small and round, made of metal, and often very ornate. (See koshirae.)

There is a pommel at the base known as a kashira, and there is often a decoration under the braided wrappings called a menuki. A bamboo peg called a mekugi is slipped through the tsuka and through the tang of the blade, using the hole called a mekugi-ana ("peg hole") drilled in it. This anchors the blade securely into the hilt. To anchor the blade securely into the sheath it will soon have, the blade acquires a collar, or habaki, which extends an inch or so past the hand guard and keeps the blade from rattling.

The sheaths themselves are not an easy task. There are two types of sheaths, both of which require exacting work to create. One is the shirasaya, which is generally made of wood and considered the "resting" sheath, used as a storage sheath. The other sheath is the more decorative or battle-worthy sheath which is usually called either a jindachi-zukuri, if suspended from the obi (belt) by straps (tachi-style), or a buke-zukuri sheath if thrust through the obi (katana-style). Other types of mounting include the kyū-guntō, shin-guntō, and kai-guntō types for the twentieth-century military.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/08/14 03:04 PM
RESULTS ARE IN! And many thanks again to all who donated barrel segments, esp. Dennis Potter. I'm saving some of the good stuff for the article but:
1. The findings were remarkably consistent
After discarding the highest and lowest mean:
Twist - 53,300 psi
Crolle - 54,500 psi

2. Four 125 year old samples, Twist and Damascus Twist - 51,500 psi. I guess the mythical delaminating, rusting welds and voids don't really weaken Pattern Welded barrels over time smile

3. As Steve Culver predicted, the JABC Twist barrels were just as strong as the crolle samples.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Steel Strength - 05/08/14 03:12 PM
Doc Drew, I'm looking forward to reading your article or articles on this subject. I predict that the work you are having done and reporting will be equal in importance to our obsession with old guns as the Sherman Bell series!...Geo
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/13/14 07:42 PM
I didn't mean to clutter up the low pressure load thread, and also hope not to give away ALL the good stuff smile but to be clear:

1. The 1891 Birmingham Proof House Report (the testing apparently started in 1888) did show a slight advantage to the steel barrels tested. Please see
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...TEK8OtPYVA/edit

2. Steel barrels tested and period published tensile strength:
Siemens (Open Hearth): 58,000 - 62,700 psi
Whitworth: 66,000 - 67,200 psi
Bessemer or Decarbonized Steel: 55,000 - 70,000 psi
It is likely some of the barrels were similar to AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel: 64,000 psi

3. Recent tensile strength testing of both Twist and Crolle Damascus was remarkably consistent and averaged about 54,000 psi

4. Fluid steel introduced in the 1890s including Krupp and Belgian sourced tubes used by (almost) all the U.S. makers have a much higher tensile strength in the range of 90,000-110,000 psi.

5. BUT Pattern Welded barrels were intended for use by the U.S. makers for smokeless powder (and they said so), were proof tested by the makers (and they said so), do NOT weaken over time (proved by recent testing), and if they have adequate wall thickness and are free of pits, weld-fractures or bulges continue to be of adequate strength for the loads for which they were originally intended.


Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/13/14 10:55 PM
To continue Miller's warning that tensile strength is only a part of the equation for estimating bursting pressure:

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

http://www.aerocomfittings.com/barlows.html
Posted By: DAM16SXS Re: Steel Strength - 05/14/14 02:44 AM
The Summer 2014 Issue of Parker Pages will have an informative article by Dave Suponski concerning the variations in fluid-pressed steels used in the various barrel grades of Parker Bros. shotguns from Trojan Steel through Vulcan Steel, Parker Steel, Parker Special Steel, Titanic Steel, Acme Steel.
It is a very interesting read but I won't spill the beans here - The issue will start hitting mailboxes in about two weeks.

Dean
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/19/14 06:10 PM
Still working on reported tensile strength of 1890 - 1900 steels. Found this old thread by Raimey with lots of information
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...amp;type=thread

BUT I'm having trouble keeping up with Krupp who developed several fluid steels after 1890, and which Belgium likely copied. Any help?

Krupp (Open Hearth): 70,000 - 80,000 psi
Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous) about 1890: ?
Krupp Nickel Steel patented in 1890: 92,500 psi
Krupp Special (1896 Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl): ?
1905 Krupp Chrome Nickel Steel D: 106,500 psi
Posted By: SamW Re: Steel Strength - 05/19/14 09:15 PM
Drew, where in that list would you expect Krupp Prime Steel to fall? (drilling barrels so marked from about 1908)
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/19/14 09:40 PM
Sam: Raimey would know more about the various new fangled Krupp barrels. Shotguns and drillings marked Prima Flussstahl Krupp-Essen and Krupp Laufstahl Nitro are not uncommon, and the name may well be a marketing rather than a material difference.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 02:30 AM
It comes down to price & Mr. Augustus Reichwald, Krupp's London agent, explains it best. There is quite a separation in cost between the Krupp Special Gun Barrel Steel(3 Ringe Stahl) & the Krupp Fluß-Stahl; hence the difference in technology. I have very strong suspicions that a tube stamped with Prima Fluß-Stahl Krupp Essen most likely has origins in Liege or possibly Ferlach.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 11:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Sam: Raimey would know more about the various new fangled Krupp barrels. Shotguns and drillings marked Prima Flussstahl Krupp-Essen and Krupp Laufstahl Nitro are not uncommon, and the name may well be a marketing rather than a material difference.
I'd like to see a foto of the Prima Flussstahl Krupp-Essen- Herr Ellenberg has it spelled correctly, Herr Doktor Haus-- It is FLU (reversed capital letter B) which is correct for the double s we use in English-- Two other points- That reversed Capital B (wish my Dell keyboard had that, along with the umlat for the four vowels, when appropriate) will Never start a sentence, and one interesting thing about the German word structure- all nouns and proper names will always start with a Capital letter- End of lesson- Oh, did you get the 11 gauge Parker Lifter barrel sections I asked friend Brad B. to send along to you. Time to "mend fences" as I respect any man who understands metallurgy, as you seem to do- also classical music and Van Gogh's works-- RWTF
Posted By: SamW Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 12:34 PM
I posted a photo of the marks a couple of years ago in a thread titled "Merkel based gun?". The Krupp Prima Stahl marks with surmounted eagle appear to be hand cut rather than stamped. I was just wondering where this steel might fall in the range of steels Drew posted, meaning I suppose its strength.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 01:31 PM


My 1st guess with just this image would Belgian sourced tube steel with a non-zero probability for Ferlach also. Have you an image of the underside?

Let me look a bit.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 02:01 PM
I'd say that in keeping his cost low and his profits high that this firearms merchant cat Chr. Hoffacker of Munchen sourced a gesteck or parts kit, possibly from various sources, & then contracted with some talented mechanic in either Zella Sankt Blasii, Mehlis or Suhl to complete the project. For the moment I'd guess the strength to be similar to those Krupp steel tube imports into the U.S. of A.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SamW Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 06:39 PM
Thanks Raimey! S
Posted By: SamW Re: Steel Strength - 05/20/14 06:47 PM
I do have a photo of the proof marks somewhere. They are Suhl marks (black powder)of about 1908. I will look up the photo or make a new one. S
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 05/21/14 12:38 AM
Francis, of what do you fancy an image?

Reutzsch Production der deutschen Eisen- und Stahlindustrie in den Jahren 1884 -1886. Krupp'scher Kanonenstahl (derselbe besteht aus in Tiegeln geschmolzenem Puddelstahl und Eisen erster Qualität und verdient hinsichtlich der Widerstandsfähigkeit und Sicherheit mehr Vertrauen als Bessemer und Siemens Martin Stahl.)

How does this read?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 05/21/14 01:31 AM
Just for clarity "flussstahl" was a generic term that had been in use in Germany at least since the 1870s.
Metallurgy of Steel, Henry Marion Howe, 1916
http://books.google.com/books?id=KX8MAAAAYAAJ&vq
The 1876 Philadelphian Nomenclature uses the terms ingot steel (French: acier fondu, German: flussstahl) for medium or high carbon molten origin steel with a tensile strength greater than 71,000 psi.
“Mild” or low carbon steel with a tensile strength less than 71,000 psi was referred to as ingot iron, fer fondu, and flusseisen. The dividing tensile strength for structural steels in the U.S. was later set at 65,000 psi.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 05/22/14 01:01 AM


I have begun to wonder about the origins of the initials LK.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 06/05/14 12:13 PM
I didn't know what thread to hijack, so I'll commence with this one. Anyone know if the Brothers Rose, Tube Makers, rolled their own or were importers? I pick them up about 1860 with a Baker as an agent and they move forward:

In the 1870 Directory for Halesowen there are
Rose Brothers gun Barrel Manufactures Halesowen forge,
Rose William Henry spade and shovel manufactr Birmingham Street,

In the 1873 directory there are
Rose Bros gun barrel and steel tool manufactures Halesowen mills and forge Bromsgrove St
Rose George and John Aaron (bros) home Birch Hill,
Rose Major and William (bros) home The Mount.
Rose Moses (Bros) home Birmingham Road,
Rose Wm HY Spade and Shovel manfr, Birmingham St,

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: Steel Strength - 06/06/14 12:02 AM
ellenbr
Rose Brothers Hales Owen,1860-1892 was an important manufacturer of gun barrels. The company held several British patents related to barrel and tube making. One was granted for making twist barrels by machinery, British patent #13299 of 24th Oct 1850. Barrels made by Rose Brothers are often marked; "Roses Patent" or just "Roses."
Hales Owen is one of the towns in the area adjacent to Birmingham known as the Black Country. Other towns in the black country,included Wolverhampton, Darlaston, Willenhall, Wednesbury.These towns were the prime source of materials and components used by the Birmingham gun makers. The area was known as the black country because during the industrial revolution it was continually enveloped in smoke from the hundreds if not thousands of industries that used coal fired furnaces/boilers as their prime source of heat energy.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 06/08/14 12:06 AM
Thanks for the effort, Roy. Have your or anyone else seen a Rose tube or tubeset?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Steel Strength - 06/08/14 12:11 AM
I guess it would look someething like the following:

http://www.google.com/patents/US1316509
U.S. of A. Patent 1316509

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/12624/Belgian-Snider-Carbine#.U5Op2fmwKTk

"ROSE'S were Rose Brothers Gun and Pistol Barrel Makers of 13 Newton Street, Birmingham and Hales Owen Mills and Forge (1860-70) Miss R. Rose, agent, 13 Newton Street (1864-70)

Aaron Rose had been granted British Patent 13,299 of 24th October 1850 for making twisted iron barrels. I had a Volunteer Enfield with one of their barrels which had a beautifully browned barrel bringing out the extra fine twist pattern very clearly.

To quote their advertisement of 1868 –
“ROSE BROTHERS (by her Majesty’s Royal Letters Patent) Hales Owen Mills and Forge, near Birmingham, Manufacturers of Chassepot Rifles and Every Description of Military Gun Barrels, from either steel or iron, Manufacturers of Drilled Cast Steel Moulds, for rolling Chassepot Rifle Barrels, or any other description of Military Barrels. Also, Manufacturers of every description of Sporting Gun Barrels, Either Breech-Loaders, or Muzzle-Loaders, made from Steel or any description of Fancy Twist Iron. Contracts made with Foreign Governments for Chassepot Rifle Barrels, either in the unfinished or finished state, likewise for Cast Steel Drilled Moulds. N.B. Retail Warehouse 25, Newton Street, Birmingham.”"

http://books.google.com/books?id=NJZQAQA...rel&f=false
Mentions a Joseph Barnsley


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: Steel Strength - 06/08/14 08:42 PM
ellenbr
At one time I had in my collection a 12G double, top lever hammer gun by C.H.Smith,Steel House lane, Birmingham, made circa 1900. This gun had barrels marked Rose Bros, According to my records,the barrels were single iron twist or Single iron Damascus twist. The gun in question was low end selling for about 7 pounds stirling at the time of manufacture.
C.H.Smith was still in business in Steel House lane circa 1950, In fact I visited the shop during my student days in Birmingham.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 07/06/14 09:13 PM
Amazing what one might find on DoubleGunBBS smile courtesy of Walt Snyder in 2009

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153034&page=all

A.P. Curtis, General Manager of the Ithaca Gun Co. requested composition analysis and tensile strength testing on a section “cut from a barrel made in Belgium” performed by E.J. Stormer, Racine, Wisconsin in 1919.
Courtesy of Walt Snyder.
Carbon .32%
Manganese .78%
Phosphorus .018%
Sulphur .033%
No chromium nor nickel
Tensile strength was “about 70,000” psi

This is very similar to a sample of Parker Titanic Steel recently analyzed and published in Parker Pages by Dave Suponski
Carbon .32%
Manganese .70%
Phosphorus .033%
Sulfer .077%
BUT the Titanic steel had .078% Nickel and .031% Chromium

Trojan Steel
Carbon .35%
Manganese .84%
Phosphorus .03%
Sulphur .025%
Nickel .04%
Chromium .02%

Unfortunately, the date of manufacture of neither barrel is known, and the composition may certainly have changed in the years after WWI.
Posted By: craigd Re: Steel Strength - 07/06/14 10:09 PM
A bit off subject, but I had noticed buried towards the end of Puraye's "Making Damascus Barrels" booklet ('76 American Riflemen two part article). There's comment about a section of barrel that was evaluated in FN's lab under the 'metallographic microscope'.

The time frame of the original publication puts that study in the fifty plus years ago ballpark. It was noted the barrel was 'autogenous', as your images showed, and not a bunch of seems and defects. Sorry if you had noticed that before, but maybe these barrels can be evaluated as low carbon low alloy tubes without some factor adjustment for damascus.
Posted By: Dave Suponski Re: Steel Strength - 07/06/14 10:16 PM
Drew, the only sample that I have a difinitive date on is the Parker Steel sample(1926). The others were not dated but I am fairly confident they date from the 1900-1915 era. As I am sure you know metallurgy in this era was a work in progress and changing on an almost daily basis.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 07/06/14 10:39 PM
Thank you Dave and Craig.

For comparison

Winchester Nickel Steel from Bethlehem Steel Co. Jan. 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=YzhUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&lpg
Carbon .50%
Phosphorous .026%
Manganese .77%
Sulphur .037%
Nickel 4.0%
Tensile Strength 106,900 psi

1905 Krupp Chrome Nickel Steel Brand "D"
0.5% Carbon
3.26% Chromium
0.16% Manganese
1.26% Nickel
0.04% Phosphorus
0.03% Sulphur

Modern AISI 4140 Chrome Moly Steel
Carbon .38 - .43%
Phosphorous .035%
Manganese .75 – 1.0%
Sulphur .04%
Chromium .80 – 1.10%
Molybdenum .15 - .25%


Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 10/08/15 08:47 PM
My apology to all those who contributed $s and barrel segments for tensile testing and composition analysis. I submitted 7 articles a year ago to DGJ, including a 2 part failure analysis and metallurgical study. I have not been informed that the articles have been rejected, but maybe Cote' is trying not to hurt my tender feelings smile

I have material for an 8th article regarding composition analysis, which would include Dave's Parker barrel study, but don't wish to invest more time or money until if/when the other articles are published. If ultimately rejected, I'll give up, eat the cost of the testing, and put the articles on the DamascusKnowledge website.

I recently obtained a Meriden Fire Arms single barrel. Sears catalog No. 117 of 1908 listed the No. 18 double and the single barrel No. 424 A.J. Aubrey guns with "Genuine Armory Steel" AND "Genuine Crystal Barrels". Catalog No. 124 of 1912 listed the No. 18 double with "Decarbonized Steel".

I also came into a c. 1920s Crescent single barrel which interestingly still retains the 'LLH' mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran. The barrel is not marked "Armory Steel" so composition analysis should be interesting.



Crescent listed "Armory Steel" barrels with the introduction of the Model 0 Hammer Double in 1897. The 1902 Sears catalog listed the “Automatic Ejector Single Gun”, a Crescent No. 8 “Bored For Nitro Powder” with “Decarbonized Armory Steel Barrel”. As late as H&D Folsom Arms Co. Catalogue No. 35 (1930-31), the listing for the New “Empire” (Crescent No. 9) states the barrels are “Fine Decarbonized ‘High Pressure’ Steel – Proof Testing with loads considerably heavier than standard loaded shells”.
I suspect "Armory Steel" is going to turn out to be similar to Marlin “Special Rolled Steel” and Winchester Standard Ordnance (Bessemer Cold) “Rolled” Steel with a reported tensile strength of 66,000 - 69,000 psi.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 10/08/15 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Amazing what one might find on DoubleGunBBS smile courtesy of Walt Snyder in 2009

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153034&page=all

A.P. Curtis, General Manager of the Ithaca Gun Co. requested composition analysis and tensile strength testing on a section “cut from a barrel made in Belgium” performed by E.J. Stormer, Racine, Wisconsin in 1919.
Courtesy of Walt Snyder.
Carbon .32%
Manganese .78%
Phosphorus .018%
Sulphur .033%
No chromium nor nickel
Tensile strength was “about 70,000” psi

This is very similar to a sample of Parker Titanic Steel recently analyzed and published in Parker Pages by Dave Suponski
Carbon .32%
Manganese .70%
Phosphorus .033%
Sulfer .077%
BUT the Titanic steel had .078% Nickel and .031% Chromium

Trojan Steel
Carbon .35%
Manganese .84%
Phosphorus .03%
Sulphur .025%
Nickel .04%
Chromium .02%

Unfortunately, the date of manufacture of neither barrel is known, and the composition may certainly have changed in the years after WWI.
So- Titanic steel has a sulfer composition, but the way cheaper Trojan grade Parker with the Trojan steel barrels has a sulphur composition- Thank you, oh LaufMeister Drewbie-silly old me, I had the Parker barrels pegged at the AISI 1140 range- just shows to go ya that even an old pipeliner with API, AWS and ASTM certification under his Huntsman hood doesn't know all there is about metallurgy-many thanks for the most enlightening analysis- RWTF
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Steel Strength - 10/08/15 10:47 PM
Drew, Dan can be on the slow side when it comes to responding to submissions. But he's run the Sherman Bell "Finding Out For Myself" series, so there's always hope. You've done good work, and it's certainly worthy of publication somewhere.
Posted By: Dave in Maine Re: Steel Strength - 10/09/15 12:39 AM
The publishers are probably running around buying up Damascus barreled guns.
Or sending your articles thru their lawyers, worried about liability.

You may want to see if a professional metallurgical journal is interested. Peer review and all that.

Thanks for the hard work.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 10/09/15 12:51 AM
Thank you Larry and Dave.

The examination of the blown out Remington 1894 barrel was performed in March and April 2014 by Adam W. Haskins, P. E., Metallurgist at Metals Engineering and Testing Laboratories (METL) here in Phoenix. He was unable to find any previously published photomicrographs/SEM of pattern welded barrels, and I urged him to publish his findings in a professional peer review journal. I think he's waiting on the DGJ articles.
I'll need his help again converting vintage barrel composition data to modern AISI equivalents.

I also thought about the liability issue (despite the Sherman Bell articles) and included this with the first article "Damascus Mythology and Reality"; some of which is here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFnSG34k3mBhLEjEgU267wAlIa215MNVQZhIiY62Hx4/edit

Disclaimers
1. My interest is in Damascus pattern identification. I am neither a metallurgist nor engineer, and hope someone with greater knowledge will continue this research.
2. A single Failure Analysis, radiography of 3 barrels, and tensile strength testing on 12 barrels does not represent a statistically significant study.
3. Nothing in this or any subsequent article should be construed to indicate that YOUR barrel is safe.

Posted By: craigd Re: Steel Strength - 10/09/15 03:02 AM
Thanks for the update Doc Drew. I believe your patience will be rewarded.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Steel Strength - 10/09/15 10:23 AM
If Dan were seriously concerned with liability, I doubt he would have published some of Sherman Bell's "destruction test" articles.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Steel Strength - 10/09/15 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Dave in Maine
The publishers are probably running around buying up Damascus barreled guns.
Or sending your articles thru their lawyers, worried about liability.

You may want to see if a professional metallurgical journal is interested. Peer review and all that.

Thanks for the hard work.
Send the publishers to see me- I have a set of Parker Damascus Grade 3- DHE 30 barrels I would gladly sell to them- doll's head and lug intact- WK barrel maker stamp- No. 2 frame and with the tool steel wear plate pinned into the lug- $ lb. 3 ounce weight stamp- ejector blades missing, also cocking hook and retaining pin-RWTF
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Steel Strength - 10/09/15 11:28 PM
I forgot to mention that I would still very much like to do tensile testing and composition analysis on a segment of Hunter Arms post-WWI Armor, and any date London, Crown, or Nitro steel barrel.
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