Hello, I wonder if there is anybody who can tell me something about this kind of boxlock. I'm missing some screws on the bascule.... It`s a nice little french 16/65, St. Etienne proofed. "Mistral a Marseille" is probably the trade shop.

Hunting-Heritage

Hunting-Heritage

Hunting-Heritage.com

It's not yet mine.........

Thanks in advance,
Gunwolf

I can't get your pictures to open.


Best,
Ted

Ted, many thanks! Did some mistakes.....

Gunwolf

Unique very well made firearm. A fine example of minimalist perfection.. That is what I enjoy about French game guns it's like opening box of fine french chocolates one does not know exactly what they're going to find.

Thanks skeettx!

Gunwolf, there is a whole lot of information that could be a whole lot more helpful stamped into the underside of those barrels.

treblig1958,
yes, of course, but I have no picture of it.... :-(( But I appreciate each thought on this gun so far...

best Regards,
Gunwolf

Gunwolf, Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you are in a real hurry. I take it that gun is for sale someplace?

Correct!! And the more I look at it, the more I like it... Probably will try to get it and than we will have a picture of the proof stamps and so on... ;-)

Gunwolf

A real beauty!!! Why not buy it. I for one have a whole lot of respect for French built doubles.

Good luck!!

Yes, indeed! And I never had one. My priority are belgian guns but this one seems to be very nice. The wood is is very beautiful too, as far as I can see.

Trigger plate action?

What is the purpose of the screw at that back of the action?

It looks very much like the screw at the back of the action is to release the side plate on the action. A side plated box-lock, they just didn't extend it to look like a side lock. I like it.

Oskar,

I think you are right! It's a plate!

If the barrels are sound, buy it.

I have one in 16 ga, not as nicely engraved. It is a joy to carry and shoot. Comes in at 5 lb. 8 ounces, about 2.5 kilo.

Consider this, too: if you were to try to get engraving like that done on any shotgun today, it would cost you more than the likely asking price for this whole gun. And don't bother to ask what a stock blank of similar French walnut would cost....

My 2 pfennig on the screws: possibly intercepting sears, though they might be a bit low to be that. Second possibility might be cocking indicators. On second or third look at the pictures, I'll agree they're probably to hold the sideplates on. Buy it and let us know....

Buy the gun if the price is not outlandish. You will go a very long time before you will come across a other one in this nice condition. You would often look back at this one as another one you let get away. French guns as a general rule are solid guns that are a good value still.

May be similar to this platform:





http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=316535&page=8

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Got the Gun!!!!! I'm happy - will keep you informed!

Gunwolf

Let's see the sideplate.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Of course, but it will need at least a week or more because rhe gun has to be send from another part of Germany....... I'm sure you are right with the side plate!
Any idea of the maker? Arquebusier Mistral a Marseille.

Regards,
Wolfgang

I, like Raimey, believe that this gun was built on the Rieger platform shown in the pictures.
Does it have a detachable fore-end?

Mistral, Marius: Gun maker in Marseille circa 1890-1900
address: 22, rue de Noailles.

The markings (if any) should help us figure this out.

Best regards,
WC-

Thanks WildCattle,
we will see soon further details of the gun including the stamps.

BTW do you and Raimey know this very interesting french site:

http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefaucheux/index.php?file=Sections&op=article&artid=241

Best Regards,
Wolfgang

perhaps interesting for your questions on C. Mode....

http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefaucheux/index.php?file=Sections&op=article&artid=305

Gunwolf

Thanks Gunwolf for the link and I may have stumbled across it before. I wonder about the content of the letter and did Jean Pirlet sign it? Eugéne L., owner of the site, is a member of our merry band and posted info here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=337216#Post337216

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post335052
Célestin Jules Modé of Paris

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
my school french let me read that the undersigner, may be it reads Jean Pirlet, thanks a certain Mr. E. Dufaur (?) for his letter of May 2 and that it is an honor for him to let him know, that he could adress to Mr. H Josse, 17 Boulevard de la Madelaine, Paris (I think may be a lawyer) who can advise him and help him to prepare necessary samples of his invention in the establishment and could represente him in all french and foreign affairs.

Hope this is right so far....!? Makes sense? BTW in red on the head of the letter is stamped: "Acquereur de la M Pirlet Fils & Co"

Best regards,
Wolfgang

Gunwolf:
Thanks for all the effort

So, prior to November 1919, Acquéreur De la Monsieur Jean Pirlet Fils & Cie, Jean Pirlet acquired C. Modé of Paris? I'll have to go back & read the C. Modé thread.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
may be that Jean Pirlet stayed in the Firme after been acquired by Mode..?!

Gunwolf

Gunwolf, you've pretty much got the French. Maybe a bit odd, if M. Josse is a lawyer, that he isn't referred to as "maître". But maybe not the usage if he's strictly a patent attorney.

L.Brown,
think you are right, the "Maitre" is not mandatory. Look at this find of 1874

http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefaucheux/index.php?file=Sections&op=article&artid=164

Search for Defaure and you will find this:

"4° : Et Mr Jules Dufaure, avocat à la cour impériale de Paris, demeurant à Paris, rue Le Peletier n° 24."

He is only called "avocat" and not "Maitre"

Best regards,
Gunwolf

Or rather, Raimey, I think that Jean Pirlet was an employee of the Mode business, possibly as a condition to the purchase of Pirlet by Mode.
Jean Pirlet signs "pour fonction" i.e. in lieu of the big boss.

M. Dufour of Toulouse likely proposed an "invention" to the Mode house and they politely sent him to a patent attorney.

I used to own a Pirlet sidelock circa 1900 that was Belgian made.
It was my first sidelock that had been badly butchered. I got rid of it in a Parisian auction circa 1990. It would have been fantastic had it not been "restored" by bandits.
The things you have to learn when you start collecting....
Best regards,
WC-

don't mix up E. DUFAUR in the city of Toulouse and J. DUFAURE in Paris ....

I think that Jean Pirlet is working for Modé.
Jean Pirlet is signing the with a P.PN that means "Par Procuration"
He signs with the permission of Modè

Eugène L .

Pirlet will becomme his partnet for 1932 till 1954

Eugène L .

Lovely to see you post Eugène Lefaucheux.

Ruddy Bovine, have a gander at the AL.(Alphonse?) Bernard Brevete or encircled crown over AB here:

http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefauche...p;thread_id=439

Have we seen him prior?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Would the side plate also be covering the hinge pin...don't see one. STeve

A. Bernard, patents a Damascus pattern in Liege in 1855
Bornier is a retailer in Dijon, Burgundy, France around 1890-1895.
A. Bernard is riding on L Bernard's coat-tails in a major way....
Not the same family...At least not immediate family...
WC- (NOT RB)

Not Alphonse Bernard but Albert Bernard , fameuse barrel maker how worked a lot with Casimir Lefaucheux (1802-1852)

Eugene L.

Hum, so was there an Albert & an Alphonse Bernard? This patent, whatever, gives that Alphonse Bernard had a novel pattern welded tube making idea and was the owner of an encircled AB:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20b/a%20bernard%20alphonse%20gb.htm
Alphonse Bernard at Littlegun
Unless Alphonse is some other French term.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

We don.t talk about the same person

Alphonse Bernard sign AB in a oval
Albert Bernard sign AB in a oval with a crown above ....

Eugene L.

While looking for some more informations of my french gun I stumbled over this french gun with another quite remarkable action:

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20a%20b/a%20bergeron%20gb.htm

Best regards,
gunwolf

OK, here we go! The gun arrived today and I made some pictures. I'm sorry, but are not yet able to remove the plates - there are plates! But I'm afraid to destroy something and will go to my gunmaker next time.
It's a nice little 16, especially the wood is marvellous! I think someone has grinded down the whole gun in the past, not very good, but to tolerate...
BTW, I was the only bidder and the price was a(good) joke!

Cal. is 16/65, length of barrels is 70 cm, over all length is 112 cm, stock is 36cm of best french walnut, buttplate of horn, very nice inlaid. weight is app. 2,3 Kilo! It's a real leightweight gun. Action is with a dollhead.

There are not so many proof stamps to recognize.

ST-ETIENNE of course and I mean

it's from between 1897 and 1923 as I found on the Lefaucheux Site:

[url=]http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefaucheux/index.php?file=Sections&op=article&artid=148[/url]

Further there is a crown above the initials I.J. (as I read)

On the wood of the forearm is written E. DURAND

Number on all parts is 899

That's all, I'm curious, if anybody can tell me more about this nice and as it seems rather rare gun.












Hope you like the pictures, any interpretation of the proof stamps are welcome!

Will keep you informed as soon as I have the plates removed....

Best Regards,
Gunwolf

That's a worn PT surmounted by a Crown overstamping a serial number looks like and not JT. Acier ???? Garanti is the steel type.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Think you are right! Any idea on E. DURAND....?

Thanks,
Gunwolf

Maybe a Général Charles Eugène Durand who was a wood worker, I don't think so but below might be a lead:

Chataing & Durand of Saint-Bonnet-le-Château

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=314108&page=2

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks, I found that too.

I found this:

Sur les canons est écrit : déposé acier comprimé, double épreuve garanti

Acier comprimé = procédé pour augmenter les caractéristiques d'un acier donné par écrouïssage. On augmente surtout la limite élastique au détriment de l'allongement à rupture en consommant les dislocations et lacunes du réseau cristallin. A l'époque, on faisait ce traitement à chaud pour diminuer ou "supprimer" les défauts de compacité du matériau.

Best Regards,
Gunwolf

I believe what you have there is a definition whilst the stamp is probably more like a trademark or advertising.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, indeed. Just find that there isn't any safety lock on the action. Unusual...?!

Gunwolf

Do you mean it doesn't have any safety at all, or no automatic safety? By the way, your new gun is beautiful! I think I'm in love with it!
Steve

Odd about the "double epreuve", because the barrels show only a single St. Etienne proofmark.

No safety at all! Another Mystery of this pretty french Lady....'

Best,
Gunwolf

The really beautiful ladies all seem to have a mystery of danger surrounding them...

How is it choked? All the French guns I've owned or handled were choked tighter than a *frogs arse. Since I upland hunt almost exclusively I end up having to open up the choke on the RH barrel and sometimes a little on the LH barrel as well.
Steve
*that's water tight!

L. Brown,

you misunderstood, it's not on the barrels of my gun.
I found that in the net and took it only for the words "acier" and "Garanti".

Gunwolf

Steve,
do not know the choke - for frog a.... I have Streupatronen,
dispersion cartridges... ;-)

Best,
Gunwolf

Every now and then, you run across a Frenchie--sometimes with a model name like "Grand Becassier" (best translated as "Woodcock Special")--that has one barrel with dispersion rifling. Sometimes misinterpreted as being a slug gun.

Raimey,

Seems there were other powders as T. Found Poudre J. and M. as well.
To my eyes the second letter is a J...!?

Regards,
Gunwolf

I think the Ideal on these poictures looks similar....!??

http://www.google.de/imgres?start=699&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1262&bih=635&tbm=isch&tbnid=mNE8DdkHPYhBUM:&imgrefurl=http://www.gournetusa.com/forum/topic.asp%3FTOPIC_ID%3D298&docid=-45waXjLGEzqYM&imgurl=http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/ggournet/DSC013521.jpg&w=800&h=533&ei=KI48UvQNqaXTBYq7gBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=408&vpy=192&dur=2504&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=151&ty=78&page=28&tbnh=146&tbnw=178&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:700,i:58

Best,
Gunwolf

I'd agree with PJ. That would mean your gun is pre-1914. After that, only Poudre T was accepted for proof.

If you find one of those in 16 I'll be on the next flight...

Look here:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Rare-IDEAL-3R-CAL-12-67-5-BECASSIER-item-1195675.html

Good Flight! ;-)

Gunwolf

.....and Take this one too:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Manufrance-Ideal-item-1419779.html

Best,
Gunwolf

Ah, lovely- especially the Excelsior with five palm steel, but they are both 12 ga. I check in at the NaturaBuy site frequently, as it is where I found my Ideal grade 4 16ga, a replacement safety, and an extra set of barrels in the white. It is time consuming and expensive to get the items here from France, which forms the somewhat serious notion of flying to France if I ever found (and had the means to acquire) a Perfection in 16 ga. Just don't tell Canvasback if you find one. Appreciate the links.

danke schön,
Mike

Mike,

I have a keen eye on the European Market especially the German and I will let you know, if I find something interesting. Here is another one in 16:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/IDEAL-N-2-item-1480852.html

Kind Regards,
Viele Grüsse,
Wolfgang

I find it interesting how long Naturabuy keeps listings available for view. Here is the link to mine, purchased three years ago:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Superbe-fusil-Ideal-314-calibre-16-Manufrance-item-333598.html

Find this gun on naturabuy:

naturabuy

Marius Mistral and Lebeau courally - interesting connection.....

Gunwolf

Absolutely, Gunwolf, this is a "Poudre J" stamp.
Circa 1895-1905...
Looks very similar to my Rieger double rifle and Buckstix' as well.

WC-

Well, for those who are still interested, the mystery behind the sideplates is lifted:
A kind of Anson lock. What I find remarkable is the bright red RN 1 on the right lock. For me it looks quite modern on a 100 years old gun…











Kind Regards,
Gunwolf