I was wondering if there are any telltale signs of redone case colors? I have a couple guns with original colors and there are no rings around where the pins go on these sidelock shotguns. Are the pin holes drilled on these original guns before or after the case hardening process? I think this scenario would be similar in terms of the holes for box locks too. I have seen several older guns on the used market with what appear to be perfect case colors, but with 'color' rings around the pin holes. I'm wondering if I'm correct in my assumption that these guns with the rings around the pin holes may very well have been 're-case colored'? Any ideas? PS: I'm talking about recoloring done in the proper bone and charcoal method, i.e., not cyanide or torch method.

you can often tell if a receiver has been rehardened, if the action binds and the triggers and safety do not operate smoothly. this is due to the receiver metal being warped, which is often an unintended result of the re heat treating process...

in severe cases, you may actually see cracks in the receiver metal caused by the stress of the re heat treating process.

better not to mess with the original receiver heat treating as done by the manufacturer.

Thx Ed. I heard through the grapevine you were an expert on such matters. I just looked at the. Holland and Holland web site. Most of their new guns aren't case colored anymore, but of the few that were, most did not have these rings I'm referring to. A couple had very indistinct rings, so I am assuming they may drill the pin holes prior to the coloring process. But NONE of these guns had these real pronounced 'rings' we see on some of these older used guns where the case color looks perfect otherwise, at least in my opinion.

buzz: take a look at gunsamerica item #913698448. this is a 16 gauge parker that has a rehardened receiver. do not see any rings around the pin holes. do you?

Near 100% original Smith colors. Are these the 'rings' of which you speak?



Original Ithaca Flues with 'rings'

Buzz - the 2013 price list indicates that H&H guns come either "colour hardened or bright finish."

As I understand it, the case hardening is the last step in the process, after all the action shaping, filing, parts fitting and engraving. Once the action has been case hardened, the surface should not be altered (e.g., drilling pin holes) because that breaches the carbon "skin" left by the hardening.

Here is a pic from Turnbull's website of an Elsie he re-color case hardened. One but not all of the pin holes has a circle around it:

I believe the "rings" are the result of the metal cooling faster than the surrounding area. The slower the metal cools the more blur results (at least that's the way I understand the process. Therefore, edges and pin holes tend to have more greys. I wonder if the pin holes were plugged with metal during the process if the blues wouldn't continue to the edge.

Case color is done after the gun is in it's finished except for finishing. Would kind of defeat the purpose of hardening a gun if you were going to drill a bunch of holes through the hard finish.

While there are few certain tells there are a few. Sometimes the colors are just wrong. Case color is not one size fits all and people who do case work need to adjust their mix or system to duplicate factory colors. If the colors look wrong for a gun they probably are. Charcoal colors on a gun which was made when cyanide colors were done are a dead give away. A 1935 Fox and a Remington made Parker had cyanide colors. Refinished guns with charcoal colors may look nicer to many people but are period incorrect.

Look for wear under the case color. Look for telltale signs of shell wear on the face of the receiver and perfect case over it. Look for pitting on the receiver and case color over it. Look for high case color on a gun with tired finish overall.

There is no one sure fire tell for redone case in some guns. It is more of a feeling that you get when looking at the gun. And always remember to the seller the case color has never been redone even if there are finger prints under it. Do argue just smile and leave the gun in the hands of the seller when in doubt.

it has been my experience that one should never reharden a shotgun receiver in the vain attempt to restore factory case colors...the cost incurred and the risk of damaging the receiver are rarely worth it...

I'm curious, has anyone here had a receiver re-case colored by a reputable source and experienced warping issues or some other issues ? I've see many threads here about case coloring and some seem obviously very against it and others for it. I've had 5 guns re-cased by John Gillette at Classic Guns and haven't had a single issue with any of them.

Have I been playing with fire and my luck will run out eventually or are issues with re-case coloring few and far between ?

Vince

Yes Drew, those are the rings I was referring to. Guess my theory was 'all wet' that this was a telltale sign of recolor as evidence by the new L. C. Smith colors you showed. I think Joe Wood's theory and mention of plugging the pin holes prior to the case color process sure sounds like a way to prevent these rings to me. If i was a gambler I'd be tempted to bet thats how it's done to prevent this ring phenomenon. Thx a lot guys. Your posts made a lot of sense !

Look for pits or corrosion. If the colour hardening is on top of it - well, there you go!

Sometimes you can just tell. Overall condition of the gun compared with condition of colours on locks and action etc.

fortunately, it has been my observation that the instances of problems caused by receiver reheat treating has been significantly reduced in recent years...most likely due to the amateurs realizing the error or their ways...

meantime, there is the cost vs resale value to consider...

You saying you've extinguished your coloring torch ?

From the master of acetylene torch color case...

We have a clear admission.

That "value" trumps "error."

When you were selling all of those grotesque acetylene torch polka dot colored guns, did viewing them ever trigger L.S.D. flashbacks in any of the buyers?

Buzz:

It is called ghosting. I have re-cased receivers both ways. To reduce ghosting, pinning and using old screws and pins during your blocking as you fixture and pack the crucible.

All double guns new and re-cased are cased with the hinge pin in place and if you look carefully at all the pictures posted here and above or anywhere, original and re-cased, there is no ghosting around the hinge pins. This pretty much answers your original question.

Most of us doing case colors try to achieve as near the original "factory" case colors as possible. Many factories "did not" pin or screw the holes as it was time consuming and sometimes pin removal was a pain after heat treating. After all, they were in business to make money. But even with the same manufacturer, many times variations occur, in other words sometimes they appear to have been pinned and sometimes not. CCH is like a snow flake, no two are the same.

A well done re-case by a competent tradesman or shop on a complete restoration, where the entire gun starts out fresh again, is near impossible to distinguish from an original factory color case hardening procedure.

But there are so many "gaudy" over the top re-case jobs out there with all the wrong parts cased that were actually blued, that it is usually quite easy to spot a re-case. Like the gaudy one pictured above from a well known shop where the forend iron is cased and should not be as it is an "extractor" gun and L.C. only cased forend irons on "ejector" guns. Then there are the ones with bone that should be cyanide and vise verse. It is very much like many of the Field Grade and other grade guns out there that have been re-stocked with XXX wood or greater which really look out of place, it's the same with case colors, too much and it becomes a circus piece. To me these "out of place" upgrades look like white wall tires on a Ferrari.

With the proper amount of homework on exactly what a specific gun looked like as it left the factory, most 'good' case color tradesman can duplicate very closely the original look desired.

Some examples of guns that I have done with ghosting for the factory original look and no ghosting for the same original factory look where it applies after proper home work and research:







1892 Marlin no ghosting.....


Top L.C. Smith 20 no ghosting.....

Hi all.
Just a few things I do know about that “ALL MUCK AND MAGIC” Vintage artisan Brit colour case hardening treatment.
The range of colours can in part be changed a small amount by adding other items to the Charcoal /Bone mix such as charred leather, Ivory scrap, ground up animal teeth
By adding varying amounts of Salt Peter (Potassium Nitrate) to the quenching water.
Also how much Air disturbance you introduce in to the quenching water.
Making a “Chill,” an older term for a piece of metal added to another piece of metal to affect its rate of cooling in a semi controlled way. Just to deviate from the gun subject a little the positioning in the foundry of bearing mould chills was a closely guarded secret in times past especially when it came to casting and supplying the Bronze “Mill Stand Brasses” for rolling mills. By not getting the chills correct the life of a heavy Mill stand bearing could be drastically reduced. This secrecy also stopped other bearing manufacturers from trying to poach your customer.
To stop colour changing “ringing” by holes the fitting of a clay plug or a pin to stop the water from entering this then prevents a different rate of temperature change by the hole.
I do bereave that colour case hardening is an art form and not just an industrial process by virtue of the number of times a man does it and the ways he experiments to get a finish particular to him.

PA24, you do beautiful work!

Many times, the right look has a different colored 'ring' around the border of an entire part. If it's right for the gun, then to me the variation is interesting whether it's original or redone.

Vince - I've had a small number of guns recased. The first was about 40 years, the work being done by LeFever in NY. The forearm iron came back badly warped. LeFever thought that was normal. It took me most of 30 years to screw up my courage to try it again, but I've had no problems since.

I think 40 years ago case hardening was done, but the process was not as well understood as it is today.

I agree completely. From the case hardening to the rust blueing to the wood finishing, and even the photography... a lot of talents on display there! I've read about blocking or pinning, but I had never heard about the use of clay plugs to prevent ringing or ghosting as damascus relates. Many thanks to those who share their knowledge with us.

Possibly a sure sign of cyanide colors is the absence of 'rings'

This thread just reminds me of how much I dislike re-colour hardened guns. To each their own, I guess.

But if a client wanted one, you would sure as hell provide.

No, I always provide as much advice as I think helpful on a job. To date I have never re-colour hardened an action on a project.

Some things I won't do. I have refused to sell a gun with a 15" original all wood stock to someone who wanted me to cut it to 14 1/4". I have also turned down requests to de-activate nice working hammer guns so people can hang them over the fireplace. There will be other examples that don't spring to mind. When people come to me, I try to provide a service that helps them, rather than just do what they want - regardless of the wisdom involved.

If you want someone to put a rubber recoil pad on your Purdey hammer gun and cut the barrels down to 27", go to someone else.

Never get tired of seeing your work Doug, amazing how good it looks !

To Small Bore's point, I paraphrase G. Bernard Shaw:

The English and Americans are really one people.

Divided by levels of taste.

(over here we like Duck Dynasty and Turnbull recase jobs!)

I, for one have never seen a recolored gun on Dig's web site. He has printed in his books how much he despises recolored actions and qualifies his statements as to his reasoning. I believe Diggory would strongly oppose the recoloring of an action, even if a client were to request that. Also, I think people who cut these stocks are making a big mistake because the ideal heel to toe measurement is about 5 1/4" whether the stock is 16" LOP or 14 1/4" LOP. Once an original stock is cut, the 5 1/4" heel to toe dimension is lost.

The heel to toe measurement does vary with LOP. A great article in "Technicana" on it. We made templates for different LOPs according to Davids drawings and description. Interesting stuff.

I have had many actions re-colored, but never just for the colors. I do lots of custom work which often includes preparing an action for engraving, annealing so tangs can be bent, etc. I would never suggest it to client just to add colors, but it is often required in the work I do. One does need to understand both the risks and the techniques(hard fitting) used to correct any warping.
Steve

Refinishing a stock, restocking, re-cutting engraving and/or re-blacking barrels all to a new appearance, without re-case coloring is half-assed,IMO. To each his own.

Yes SKB, I have read that too, but the measurement they quote is 5 1/8 to 5 5/8. As an avg I used 5 1/4. So the point is if you cut a stock this heel to toe measurement will NOT be in proportion especially if a lot of wood, say 1.5 inches is cut from an original stock. That was the point I was trying to make. Man, you gunsmiths are a tough crowd.

Diggory, I have a project gun in the white right now. It will be lightly engraved, after some filing for a non original look. How would you finish such a gun after this work? Thanks for replying.

Buzz, not try to be tough. If you notice on your second post you mention a wide range, not a fixed dimension. All I was trying to point out is that dimension varies with LOP.

I discussed this recently with Robin Brown of AA Brown. He is, in my opinion one of the very best at colour case hardening, though not as lauded as the St Ledgers.

He did a gun recently for Vic Venters. Now, Vic did not want case colours. Robin told him he needed them Vic does not like the thick, dark colours as he thinks they hide the engraving.

Robin explained he could colour it lightly and cut the colours back to allow the engraving to show through, with a skin of fine colour showing it at its best.

I think Robin got it spot on - Vic agreed!

Following on from this, Robin showed me a gun (a barely engraved boxlock) he was restoring. The bare action looked rather sorry for itself amid the other surfaces looking all nice and sharp. Robin very subtly put some light colours on, which were not as in your face as a lot of what you see. He was able to get the balance right. So, Eightbore, I read your 'in the white' to be a cleaned-off old action, rather than an un made-up one which you are bringing into service from new (correct me if I got this wrong). So, if you plan to colour it, I'd recommend the subtle route. Just my opinion.

On the subject, I recall a lovely Woodward hammer gun in very un-messed condition which I lost a bidding contest with a UK dealer for. It made about £4,000. I saw it for sale at a Game Fair a year later, fully done-up and re-coloured. To my eyes, he had killed the gun. Asking price was £9,950. Someone bought it - maybe it was Mike Campbell!

I have my way of doing things, some appreciate it, others have their own ideas.

+100 for Mike Campbell...






On your thread #214007 Dig, you say there is room for everybody and everybody's opinions and everybody's pocket book.

On this thread you keep trying to spread your opinion as something more than your opinion like a used car salesman....?.....

Different strokes for different folks I would say.

Sure glad you are only into British shotguns and not airplanes or collector cars, where you would be dangerous.

Small Bore,

When you say "lightly done" how light is that? I am asking because one of the best looking SXSs I have seen was a Holland where the case hardening had faded to the point where the action was an even grey patina, no hint of blues and browns on it. It was not a dulled coin finish, that I know because some color was left under the trigger guard.

Can this grey sheen be produced on demand?

I am not answering for Diggory, but some US gun finishers harden an action and then remove the colors entirely. Dig, what do you think of that procedure?

A used car salesman eh? Nice Doug, thanks for that.

This forum is about sharing opinions. I'm sharing mine. If you don't agree, fine. We agree to differ. I stand by the idea that there is room for everybody's opinion and pocket book. Not colour hardening a gun won't add to the bill! As I actually said in my last post 'just my opinion'.

I have some photos of Vic's gun. I'll see if I can find them and post a thread to show it.

I think an unnatural number of the English guns of about 75 yrs old or older, sold by dealers in the U.S., show near 100% colors and often blueing as well. The English either don't touch the frames with hands, guncases, or cleaning cloths in the guns life or they are re-done.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=1&theater

This is a link to Vic's gun, colour by Robin Brown. Obviously, this is a new gun, not a re-coloured old action.

That is a light color, not at all overpowering. Interesting even for me, and I am a confirmed grey action- coin finish person.

Chuck,

With the climate in England there is an awful lot of rust on everything, poor storage etc......nothing much survives that climate .....most of the guns you speak of are refurbished/spruced up for the market place, but there are a lot of beaters out there too.....I think England invented the word mold.

Remember the before and after pictures from Tony Treadwell and others.

Their cars fare even worse, rust from bumper to bumper generally if they are driven and not plastic.

An unusual engraved re-cased L. C. Smith by Turnbull.

Another tasteful AA Brown offering:



If £40k-50k of loose change ever finds its way into my pocket, they will be my first call . . . .

I remember an article in DGJ not too long ago where Mike Campbell (I think that's his name) restored a WR drop lock where he had it re-colored. He wanted a subtle hint of color as I remember. When it came back he thought the colors were a little too strong. He used a product called Simichrome (sp?)to lightly rub the colors out some. The end result looked very good.

I've been offered £11,500 for it. Just think...if you owned it, might be worth 5?

+1

Yeah they even have a city named mold...

I appreciate St Ledger and Schilling as the best INMO but if you ask Turnbull to provide "subdued" colours he can do a good job. Below are a couple of pics of a single shot Steve Dodd Hughes made for me and got Turnbull to colour (I specified subtle) I am happy with the way it came out.







best
Mike

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=1&theater

This is a link to a photo of a well restored single 4-bore side-lock of very high quality. All the work is of a very high standard and comes very close to making the gun look original. The key here was that the action and engraving were in very crisp condition when the renovation and re-colour harening took place. Re-colouring over worn metal or fitting re-coloured metal to worn wood (like the Amazing Grace gun above) give away that it is a tired old gun that has been done-up to look new but does not quite make it. That is not a comment on the quality of the work, more on what condition the piece was that was there to work on at the beginning.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=1&theater

The next link is to a gun which has been re-coloured and re-browned in a manner which, I believe is OTT. The gun now looks like a garish do-up and the gun has, in my opinion been spoiled.

I'm sorry to hear the rather snide personal 'digs' in response to me expressing my opinion, in what I think is a reasonable way. Surely we are here to exchange opinions and observations in friendly manner. I don't know why some here feel hey have to attack people for not sharing their particular view.

I'm not criticising anyone's talents here. I have a good friend who is a very gifted and successful tattoo artist. He is not offended that I prefer myself and my women un-tattooed. It is not a slur on his work or his customers, just a reflection of our different aesthetic opinions.

Guys, try and be nicer!

I´ll agree with you Dig, the second one is an example of bad case work, it looks like a rainbow ! best, Mike

Interesting information from a blacksmith website on how to vary the colors in the CCH process:

Anvilfire

I don't care what y'all say...

I'm stickin' to ma standards on this one:

Black Escalades with gangsta rims, Miller Lite beer... and Turnbull colors!

Whooooooeeee!

Dig,
Just an observation on that latter picture of the hammergun... it looks to me like the color saturation of the photograph may have exaggerated the colors. Note the barrel color. I suspect those barrels are not bright orange nor the colors of the frame so prominent when observed in person. But I agree that some colors are OTT.

When I look at the various guns with casehardening colors, it strikes me that some original guns had subdued colors and some very OTT colors. What's an accurate representation of the original colors for one make, may be completely inappropriate for another. In general, it seems like the English guns were/are more subtle with blues and grays. The reds, browns, and yellows, in combination with blues and grays, seem to be common on American guns.

Chuck, I took the photo and it was pretty much as it looks. Horrid orange barrels and all!

Colour hardening finishes did vary a good bit, agreed.

Diggory,

Your initial post on this thread was very rude and condescending, sorry you don't understand, but several people reacted to it.

How would you feel if someone posted on your "Houston store update" or "British shotgun" thread the following:.... "This thread just reminds me of how much I dislike British Shotguns. To each their own, I guess".....

Maybe you just had too much beer whilst you were typing...?.....

Most American guns are not OTT on engraving nearly as much as the English guns, therefore, the colors are much easier to distinguish, even when produced as muted per a customers request.

Blues and Grays are the easiest to produce by far.......reds are the most difficult and sometimes mustard and browns can be difficult.

Doug,
Here's a gun I had Gunter Pfrommer re-do. I'm not unhappy with the colors, but I think some of the more muted colors on some of your LC's are probably closer to OEM colors for this Ithaca. I figure they'll wear nicely.





Below is my early Parker with Turnbull casehardening.

bb: you need to know when to lay low and not come up here trashin threads....

Chuck,

Outstanding guns and colors Chuck. There are ways to mute the Ithaca colors if you're not happy, or re-do it. Very nice work though. As you say, the colors will wear.

Best,

Doug,

A thread on case colour re-hardening is an appropriate place to comment on the fact that I don't generally like it. Where else?

The comment was not about you or your work. You seem to have taken it personally. It was about spotting re-colour hardening.

I made very clear in every post that I was expressing MY preferences and opinions. Surely that is why we are all here talking guns?

Look back and see if you can find a single instance where I have targeted you or justify personal jibes.

You have a vested interest in having people like your work Fine.

I do not have a vested interest in liking or not liking case colour re-hardening. I have at my disposal the best CCH people in the British Gun Trade and I use them when making new guns, which I actually prefer to be colour case hardened (I'm building two side-locks this year and persuaded the client to have them CCH finished when he did not want it).

I think I have made some fair points and illustrated them with examples. Others have expressed different opinions and examples.

As for 'rude' I suggest you look at who has been making snide comments and where they have been aimed.

Sorry you don't approve Torch Man...

But come to think of it, the only colors purtier than Turnbull's are:

ed good torch colors!

(see, it's really a plug for your business)

Dig,
These two particular guns were completely redone, including restocking, due to broken stocks. Both were devoid of any finish on the receivers and much of the barrel finish. I thought a gun with a new stock would be appropriate with new metal finish to reset the clock. The Ithaca had been abused a bit as well.

Just a note to add regarding Parkers restored by Delgrego. The question often comes up regarding these guns and if they are original finish or not. Usually the cyanide colors are a dead giveaway, especially on Meriden made guns. But also, one will usually see, when held at the right angle, a definite line extending from the bottom of the breech ball back to the rear of the action. This is from the buffing of the receiver that was done and the same finish could not be obtained behind the ball so a slight difference in finish can be seen.

John Gillete's case colors. I think he and Turnbull get it pretty close.

I have a Turnbull Parker and a Turnbull Smith and am happy with both. I once examined a Turnbull Fox B Grade at Ivory Beads and it was spectacular in its subtlety. Should have tried to buy it. Three different Turnbull guns with three different colorations.

In defense of re-color/case hardening I think that a gun that has been restocked, or has had extensive wood repairs done so that the entire wood set needed new finish, and has been re-blued, looks like crap with the old shiny receiver that has all the case color gone.

I like the colors to be like the originals, or as near to what the original looked like as we can determine. I am (re)building an A grade Fox. I bought the receiver from one source, an early Philly with the original dented and oil soaked wood. I was offered, and bought, a set of unfitted original 32" A.H.Fox barrels, Utica time frame. I found a bad set of barrels at another source with the ejector forend, and got them. Kearcher fitted the "new" barrels, perfectly, I degreased the wood and recut the checkering. Now, I'm shooting it some, in the white so to speak, before having the bluing and case colors done. They will be cyanide colors, because that is what I think would be appropriate on the gun. How do I think I'd like the redone gun with everything done except for leaving the old receiver in the white? Not at all. It would look like an unfinished gun, which it would be.

It has to be considered as a whole gun, the package, so to speak. A gun with beat up wood, scratched up bluing and battered checkering shouldn't be re-cased, either. All it takes is a little common sense to see what is right and what is not, IMO. I get the distinct impression from some people in the trade, that seem to hate re-done guns so bad, that deep down inside they are afraid someone will do one so well that they may be fooled into thinking it is a closet queen original. Don't think for a minute that you can't be fooled. There are a very, very few people out there that are that good.

SRH

You might have something there, Hoof. This thread has sort of turned into something really not intended. Oh well.

I dunno - I learned something and got to see a couple of nice guns (btw - pretty Fox, Tut). It wasn't all that bad . . . .

I have to hold my mouth when some elitist says I, or someone else, "ruined" some gun; when they have no idea which "junk pile" I dragged it from, or what it looked like to start with.Nine times out of ten, if someone hadn't saved it, it would have been turned into a lawnmower blade. Also it is my opinion that case color is appropriate on a plain or lightly engraved gun, but if it is highly engraved,especially with small scroll,it should have a "coin" or "French Grey" finish(preferably after bluing to highlight the engraving).This is only my personal opinion and no one else has to share it.
Mike

Chuck - May I ask who refinished the barrels on your Parker? They, too, are absolutely stunning.

Many Thanks - Marc

Hello. My latest acquisition, Riverside 20ga, 28", Cyl&Mod chokes. I was just wondering about the colors. Redone? Is this the cyanide method? Thank you.









I would hope they are not re-done, I don't think so. If I'm wrong please enlighten me. But if they are, they are. I'm happy.

I have never seen an accurate re-case of AH Fox cyanide colors----has anyone? Here are few examples of originals. One consistent thing I have observed about Fox colors is the light area at the front of the breech balls and the light area at the front of the frame where the forend sits. Every example I have in my collection shows that quality.

For duplicating original Fox cyanide colors I've heard good reports of those being done by Paul Lippold of Ron's Gun Shop in Oshkosh, WI .
http://www.ronsgunshop.com/finishes.html

redotx: riverside stamped guns are actually stevens made products...stevens are not known to be high value guns. therefore, it would most likely cost more to have the colors redone than the value of the gun...it does not make economic sense to put more money into a gun than it is worth to begin with.

the colors on your gun look original to me and as such, makes it quite rare. a stevens collector would no doubt appreciate it.

When I got this shotgun, I did some reading, and found out Riverside was a Stevens variant, but thanks for your help anyway ed, and your thoughts on the colors. Sitting on the rack at the local pawn shop, it was the colors that drew my attention. Also, it does close up tight. I did not have it closed all the way when I took the photos. It's still really tight.

rare to see a decent gun for sale in texas. most texas guns I have seen are well used and less well taken care of...

Red, the colors seem to be very similar to an "oil burn" finish I once had on a redone Smith.