Several years ago, I bought a Darne 12 Ga in Paris, which I have used for sporting clays in France. I am less and less able to be in Europe on holiday, so I would like to bring the Darne back with me on my next trip to France.

What forms and procedures do I need to complete in order to bring the gun back with me?

Any advice will be appreciated. Note, I am not asking for it to be shipped to the States but rather simply to bring it back with me (in a locked case etc).

Thank you—

Berrien Moore

Don't know if I can be of specific help with your wanting to take it with you out of France...but I have imported a gun from France and a set of barrels for it is currently on the way. There are forms and taxes to get it out of France that will amount to about 500.00, and an import permit from the ATF on this side of the pond (and probably the utilization of a customs broker) that will run you as much or more. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any more assistance.

Mike

You are actually going to have as much of a problem with US Customs as you will have with the ATF. I'm not even positive that you can legally do what you are considering, since, for taxation purposes, it will be considered an import by ATF and US Customs, regardless of how long you have owned it. Being an import, it will have to go through a licensed dealer, or, better yet, a really sharp importer, and a Customs house broker.
It is (or, used to be) pretty easy to return from outside the US with your own shotgun IF, and this was a huge if, you had the little chit (Customs form 4457) properly filled out by a US Customs officer BEFORE you left. You don't. That will be a problem.
I am positive that there are US Customs officers that are professional, helpful, and willing to go the extra mile to see you and your effects happily returning to the US from wherever-but I NEVER met any like that. Not once. They took special joy at Port of Minneapolis in making anyone with a firearm, miserable. PLEASE don't believe you can simply show up at US Customs, after an international flight, with a shotgun and try to make the point that it is your gun, without form 4457 being properly filled out and dated.

Duty and ATF excise tax, both collected by US Customs, will be due on the gun, in the event you successfully bring it to the US.

I wish you good luck. I'd honestly ponder selling it in Europe before attempting what you are considering.

Best,
Ted

My first trip back from Argentina I lacked 4457 and the agent was not happy but went to a desk and came back with a form and sent me and my gun on the way. I fly into Houston, not NY similar anti places. You might want to check Briley, 10 years ago they helped bring in a K-80 from the UK and their charges were less than 200 inc tax.

bill

The Customs website makes it clear that the 4457 form is NOT a requirement. Instead it is only one form of acceptable proof that you acquired the property in the USA and took it out of the Country. A dated bill of sale or sales receipt serves the same purpose.

Ted is correct though about the Minneapolis airport customs. I tried once to use my Canadian gun registration card to show prior ownership and the officer informed me that they would not accept a document issued by a FOREIGN GOVERNMENT! I told him to either let me go or go ahead and confiscate my gun as I had a plane to catch. He let me through with my gun...Geo

Ted is correct about both points.

My reading of the original post led me to believe that he didn't acquire the gun here in the USA-he got it in Paris.

It will be considered an import.

I used to think it was just me that had problems with Port of Minneapolis.

It isn't.

Best,
Ted

Ted is correct. I bought the shotgun in Paris about 10 years ago (12 ga. Darne V-22), and now I want to bring it back with me. I have the original bill of sale.

There must be a way--after all you can bring cars back!!

Thanks!

Berrien

You can bring some cars back. Years ago, I was actually contacted by the local office of the ATF, to help a South African immigrant to the US, who had gotten some spectacularly bad advice regarding his personal shotgun and his late 1930s Morgan automobile. No one at ATF can actually import a gun, you have to be an FFL or an importer to do that. Someone at US Customs told him to bring both of them in the container with his household items, and both were promptly seized when the container was opened.
The gun I could help him with, the car I couldn't. The gun was less than thirty days from being destroyed by Customs when I sent the paperwork to Washington through the local ATF office, with their promise that it would be expedited. They actually did do that. The gun was cleared before the car, but I never did hear how the car ended up.
There exist areas of regulation that overlap between ATF and US Customs, and from what I've seen, both agencies are uncomfortable when they have to make a decision that involves those areas. One would think it would be cut and dried, but a CYA attitude often exists that makes headway difficult.

Best,
Ted

To quote my French Colleagues, "Merde"

These folks offer import of guns.

http://bsaltd.com/gunserv.htm

Ted you probably ought to correct the US Customs and Border Protection Agency of the Homeland Security Department on their FAQs. They apparently think that a receipt will suffice in lieu of the 4457 form:

"3. Register any equipment with serial numbers on a Certificate of Registration form (CBP 4457) with an U.S. CBP officer prior to leaving the U.S. You must physically take the equipment to a CBP Port of Entry and have a CBP Officer fill out the form and stamp it. You will need to present the form when you reenter the U.S. with the equipment (if you have sales receipts for these items, you do not have to register them with CBP, but make sure you have the receipts handy)"

...Geo

Geo,
I actually only need to correct you, as it were.
You need to pay attention to the conversation at hand. Mr. Moore bought the gun in PARIS, for use in FRANCE-the "equipment" has NEVER physically been here in the USA. As you can imagine, this will impact greatly Mr. Moore's ability to present said "equipment" to a CBP officer prior to leaving the USA, for FRANCE, to bring his gun to his home in the USA. This is a critical point, since, no taxes or duty would have been collected in FRANCE for either Customs or ATF. If he had been able to present the gun to a CBP agent in the US, the onus of proof of payment of duty and taxes would be with the importer who's name appeared on the gun.

My quote, re-quoted by you, applies to him, and him only, due to his somewhat unique circumstances with this particular gun. I will also point out that in my experience, a gun being moved through US Customs attracts more attention then say, used stereo equipment. It is simply the nature of the beast.

The receipt for Mr. Moore's gun, purchased a decade ago in PARIS, will be of no use to him in dealing with either ATF, or US Customs, at this time. Firearms of the type that Mr. Moore owns fall into a catagory that has taxes levied on by both US Customs and the ATF. These taxes apply to both new and used items, and neither of these taxes have been paid on said gun. US Customs collects both taxes, (assuming he is not in the business of importing guns, anyway) but, will not collect the portion destined to ATF without an approved form 6. They will not release a gun without an approved form 6, either.

As they say at the Chinese laundry, "no ticky, no laundry". The ticket to getting this gun here, legally, will involve an FFL and an approved form 6.

And the payment of all duty and taxes.


Best,
Ted

How much is the Darne worth? If it is a low value gun is the export taxes (fees) and import duties worth it? You could end up spending a grand in importing a gun worth two. Would it make more sense to sell it over there and replace it here? Perhaps if the gun has a value over five grand you could justify the expense.

Per my experience. Find a friendly FFL who knows about ATF6 or is willing to work with you as you get the form and fill it out for the FFL. Submit the form per instructions and wait. Talk to ATF if you have questions. Take the the ATF6, a copy of the FFL license, and a letter from the actual FFL allowing you use of the license. When you return, the ATF6 approves the gun's entry into the US, the FFL gives the gun a legit place to go, and the letter makes sure you are allowed to take it to the FFL's store. The FFL must run the gun through his books. When he signs the gun out to you, it is legally yours here in USA.

I'd be very inclined to belive a V-22 Darne would be well worth the effort.

Hope that helps.

DDA

Uhh Ted, what possible use would a Form 4457 be to Berrien Moore in this situation? He bought the the Darne in Paris. He's never imported it to the USA. He could never have taken it to a customs office to have a Form 4457 signed.

Your quote as set out above says to me that the customs form is the only method of proving prior possession in the USA. That's simply wrong. A receipt or bill of sale is sufficient proof as set out in the Customs FAQs I quoted. The Form 4457 is only one convenient method of such proof, not the only proof available...Geo

Connecticut Stotgun has a Darne V-22 for sale (albeit in 20g) and the asking price is almost $20K. So it seems to be a good candidate for the trouble and pennies involved.

With kind regards,
Jani

Everything you say would be completely relevant-if, the gun had ever been here. Or, had been bought here. His receipt from France isn't going to help him. I can promise you if he showed up at the airport after returning from France with his V-22 and a receipt from a transaction in France a decade ago, he would not be leaving the airport with his gun, and might not even be going straight home. And, while form 4457 isn't the only such proof for proving prior ownership, it is the BEST. My point was that Mr. Moore shouldn't show up at Customs at the airport with his gun in his baggage and no way to prove it was his and he had acquired it legally. That's a no-no.

Hey, Jani,
The asking price on CSMCs V22 includes a stock that is pinned and a rubber extension under the original butt plate.
I think it will be for sale for a long time.

Ted, unless Mr. Moore happens to hold a US FFL no document whether it is a receipt for ownership or a foreign country registration or what ever is going to be sufficient for him to import his own gun. He'll have to use an importer with an FFL.

Your prior posts in this thread have given the impression that an American hunter who travels to Canada to hunt cannot bring his gun back into the USA without the 4457 customs form. I am just trying to correct that mis-information. Certainly the customs form is the easiest method of proving prior ownership in the USA, but not the only way...Geo

Ted,
I too think that it will be for sale for a long time.
With kind regards,
Jani

That part of your post is also incorrect, George. You don't need to be an importer to import a gun. Anyone with an FFL can import on an "occasional" basis. I believe--working through an FFL in this country--Mr. Moore should be able to import the gun himself. He needs to get an approved import permit in his name, with the FFL signing the form as the applicant. I did this using a friend with an FFL (not an importer). The approved permit came directly to me. In my case, the gun was shipped from England to the States. I went to my local post office where the postmaster collected the import duty and customs processing fee. Walked out the door with my gun, completed paperwork with the FFL. He should be OK with US Customs if he has an approved import permit. But there's still the issue of getting the gun out of France, which requires jumping through a few French hoops.

If he decides to use an American importer, John Boyd (Quality Arms), who's a sponsor here, is an importer.

Your best approach is going to be to bring the gun back using an importer/customs broker/ffl. I don't know if John Boyd in Houston provides this service, but he certainly would know how to do it. A little closer to you, but still on the wrong side of the Red River, TRI in DFW is in this business (handling customized imports). Their website is http://www.trimports.com/import-services.html and their phone number is 866-419-6271. Never done business with either of them (but I have friends who've bought stuff from Boyd and speak well of him).

From your address you appear to be a bit of a Boomer Sooner, but I'm afraid you're going to have to rely on the Texans. And starting now you'll never get this done before football season . . .

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/210/~/requirements-for-importing-new-or-antique-firearms%2Fammunition

Larry you are a pretty smart guy and I have no doubt that you succeeded in figuring out how to import your own gun. I'll bet that required a pretty steep learning curve though.

However if I were in Mr. Moore's position and had the choice of negotiating both the French and American bureaucracy to import my Darne or auditing a couple of medical school classes and performing my own operation with local anesthetics, I would choose the surgery. I'll bet he ends up using an importer.

The only 'helpful' point I've tried to make in this thread has been to clear up the idea that the customs form 4457 is the ONLY method of proving you owned your shotgun before you carried it out of the USA. I think we are all in agreement on that now.

Your mention of having paid your customs tax/duty to the local Postmaster is interesting. It is my understanding that the postmaster is also an ex-officio customs officer. That's why he was authorized to accept your payment.

That being the case I wonder if the Postmaster can sign and stamp your form 4457? I live in a rural area which is not near any Customs Office. I never seem to have time in transit at the Atlanta airport to get my gun out of baggage and have the customs guys there check the serial number and sign the form.

My local postmaster once told me he thought he was authorized to sign the form. I've been using a 4457 signed by him with his local postmaster's stamp. Its never been questioned by any customs officer, even the gentleman in Minneapolis. Are you aware of any regulation authorizing a postmaster to sign off on a form 4457?...Geo

George, I'm pretty sure there are others here who have imported guns the same way I did, through a regular FFL (not an importer). Not really all that difficult, or at least it wasn't for me. Got the approved permit from ATF fairly quickly.

Not sure about a postmaster signing the form. I asked my postmaster (very small town in Iowa) about any issues before I had the gun shipped from England. She said she'd never handled a firearms transaction before, but she'd collected the customs fee and duty on other imported items. She didn't blink an eye on the gun.

My guess is, however Mr. Moore does it if he tries to bring the gun back with him, he's going to have a more difficult challenge on the French end (getting the gun out of France) than on the American end.

The required ATF form used to be a form 6 part 1 I believe. Your local FFL dealer can fill it out for you. It would then need to be sent to ATF for approval. Upon approval it would need to be sent back with the gun or it will be seized by customs. What I did was have two german guns shipped back to Dulles Airport via Luftansa. I had sent the approved ATF form to the dealer in Germany and it accompanied the shipment. I also had to have a letter from my FFL dealer advising I was acting on their behalf and I paid the import duty and received the gun. I then took it back to my dealer and then he did the standard FFL form that was required for the Va state police back ground check so they could release it to me. It wasn't that hard, but is took a bit of time to navigate through all the wickets.

I'm not at all positive, but the last time I checked you could buy a gun in France and walk out the door with it. Likewise, there was no issue with export. Better check on that, but that was so not so long ago.

DDA

My friends who have shipped guns from europe to the US have had to have their FFL go in person to the airport and pick up the guns. What paperwork was required also varied by who was working at Customs. Sometimes we had to have them get out the manual and point out to them that we did have the correct paperwork. Even after this he said he had to talk to a supervisor and made us come back the next day. Talk to several people at ATF and Customs. After you get answers contact different people at each agency and get their answers and see if they mesh. Importing a gun is not as straightforward as it might be, but it is possible to do on your own with the assistance of a local FFL.
Regards,
Jeff

While you might be able to walk out the door in France with the gun you bought, getting it out of the country is another story--per the above.

Coincidentally one of ours here just reported successfully walking through the importation process: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=332035&gonew=1#UNREAD

And thanks to Col. Brown for his translation help in making this happen. My second set of barrels should be leaving France shortly.

Alors, this is easy to do. I've done it. I've just been in Paris and no changes in the law lately. Bought the gun, showed a US passport to the dealer, a EU passport would require a different procedure, he boxed it up and I took it away. I left the gun in Paris for a few months. If I hadn't had a place to leave it I'm sure the dealer would have held it for me. Anyway, back in the USA I filled in the Form 6 and got my local FFL guy to sign it for $20. A month or so later I got the permit in the mail. Good for 6 months. Went back to Paris with a hard sided gun case that fit inside another suitcase/duffle bag. BYW I always put the gun case inside another suitcase when I fly, less chance of theft. On return flight to the USA I declared the gun at check in at CDG. They did the usual look thru the barrels to see that it wasn't loaded, put the usual firearm tag in the gun case. I locked it up, put the gun case inside the suit case with my other junk, locked that and checked it thru to Philadelphia. In Philly I declared the gun at customs, showed the Form 6, paid a very modest fee and I seem to remember they gave me a green copy of something and a receipt for the fee. I was on my way within 30 minutes or less. This particular gun is a Darne V19 sixteen bore, absolute beauty. I also regularly fly back and forth to Ireland with a shotgun. In this case though the gun was bought in the US and I have an Irish permit for it. I always have that little US Customs form with me when I'm coming back but I've never had to show it in many years of travel. So there you go. No big deal.
Where do you shoot in France? Is there a place in the Bois de Boulogne? On a sadder note, there seem to be less and less gun shops in Paris.
nial

Interesting, Nial. From wingshooter's experience, sounds as if the sticky part is SHIPPING a gun out of France. Make the wife happy, take her to Paris for a vacation, bring the gun home with you. Sounds like a win/win.

Nial and Larry

Larry, from my experience, your suggestion may be the nicest but perhaps the most expensive.

On the other hand, my wife has a Darne 20 ga so she is ready to try Nial's adventure also.

Thanks to all--we will give it a go and report back.

Best,

Berrien

Shipping, that's it exactly.
nial

I've imported two from Canada. Had to enlist the help of friends and a member here to get the first one done. It took a couple years even though the first attempt was per the book on both sides of the border. An over-zealous Canadian border jockey wouldn't let it pass, which caused a whole series of events, none of which were productive or pleasant. The second gun was from a dealer that assured me it was "no problem' and would take only a few weeks since they did it regularly. It took 6 months.

Good luck. It's hard enough living in California and getting a gun into this state without unknowledgeable dealers giving me the runaround about my C&R FFL or even using a dealer here. There will be no more imports for me.

It depends on that state laws so you must consult with a lawyer in that state where you want to move.So that they can tell you that what exactly you need for moving there with gun.
Gold Coast Security Solutions

Does all this indicate that it would be a joke to bid on a gun through Egun.de? Steve

Sounds like it's easier for a Columbian drug cartel to get shipments of cocaine into the United States than it is for a law abiding U.S. citizen to bring in a perfectly legal two-barreled shotgun. Something is wrong with this picture.

Well:
We all know it's been easier for the U S Justice Dept. to "export" firearms to Mexico then it is to import them here.
The last tine I imported a shotgun on a Form 6 using a friends FFL it was more difficult and time consuming getting it approved and out of Great Britain. Once shipped the transit and delivery went very smooth.
Jim

Just recently here in Houston a fellow contacted me to import a gun for him. This was a several weeks ago. I said I was swamped not able to attend to it at this moment. Later, I called him back and said I am now caught up and could handle it. He thanked me and said he said he found someone else. Well low and behold he called me today and wanted me to handle it. I said I thought you found someone else, so whats up. He said that he found out that they did not how do do it even though they said not problem, so they were just swimming around. So, he is going to use me.

John Boyd
Quality Arms