A very large double gun dealer was setting up at a gun show this past Friday night. The weather was hot outside but the center where the show is held was air conditioned and comfortable. The dealer and his helper both had an open adult beverage under the tables while setting up. An official of the show noticed the beverages and after a heated exchange with the show officials both were expelled from the show. I commend the gun show for this. I believe drinking should be done only after guns are put safely away.

In that case British driven shooting would never have happened, nor double shotguns and the evolution thereof !! regards, Mike

As we Brits would say ‘they have thrown the baby out with the bath water.’ What has happened to moderation in all things? I take it that other than possessing some Alcoholic Beverages their behaviour was not out of the ordinary. So what was the problem at the time!!!!!!!!! Or has some official come up with the old chestnut ‘Health and Safety’ what next ban Cough Mixture because it can also have Alcohol in its make up.
Though to keep a balanced view being visibly under the influence of Alcohol and fire arms should not be tolerated in any circumstances but an Alcoholic drink in the hand of a normal person what is the problem?

It's difficult for me to accept an argument defending alcohol use while is possession of firearms. The gentlemen at the show made an error in judgement and were rightfully confronted in my estimation. Should the show officials have waited until the dealer was drunkenly mishandling firearms? This is exactly the kind of behavior that we must avoid at a time when our right to keep and bear arms is under a well coordinated and serious attack.

>Mr. Bailey: To compare the development of the modern game gun to this sort of behavior, and at this politically charged time, is to miss the posters intent entirely. What your/our ancestors did wasn't always the correct action, despite the outcome.

I you need a drink early in the morning while setting up a booth, presuming it is early when they set up, then it is more of a problem than just alcohol and guns...the operators of the show did the right thing especially from liability purposes...if these guys " sipped" all day....they then have to drive too I suppose....

If everyone who has a drink while attending the show is thrown out there won't be much show. As a non drinker I think the reaction overboard but throwing them out may have resulted from the "heated exchange" instead of the actual beverage.

[\quote]I you need a drink early in the morning while setting up a booth, presuming it is early when they set up, then it is more of a problem than just alcohol and guns...the operators of the show did the right thing especially from liability purposes...if these guys " sipped" all day....they then have to drive too I suppose.... [/quote]

The original post does clearly say Friday night. I can't see any problem with a modest drink when working late on a Friday night.

As Mike says, its entirely normal to drink in moderation when on a normal day game shooting here in the UK. Intoxication would not be tolerated, but a modest nip of sloe gin between drives, and a glass of wine with lunch would (in my experience) be the normal practice. I have never seen anyone intoxicated whilst out game shooting (and hope I never do).

I have no problem with those who wish to abstain, and some do with most shoots providing non-alcoholic refreshments as well, but the majority of people enjoy a glass of something with friends as a part of the days activites.

Sounds like a bit of an over-reaction. They guys were putting hardware on tables, not shooting melons from the hip and shouting Whooo hooo!

Reminds me of the mentality I experience when attending open air concerts and being told I can't smoke cigars 'in here'.

What would have been wrong with asking the exhibitors to put the alcohol away? This would be a rough policy to enforce at Beinfeld's shows. Obviously, many of our posters have not been to many gun shows.

That's it, Sam. If the sipper had been told tactfully that alcohol isn't allowed on the premises there'd been a different outcome.

There's also something about cyber-gunners getting up each other's noses. It hasn't happened ever on websites of airmen or fly-ins in my experience.

Uncommon courtesy and generosity abides with my clay-shooting forays.

There is still one shotgun range in Low Angeles that has a bar in the facility. Winchester used to have ranges with full cocktail bars. I drive by the old Wilmington Winchester range clubhouse often. If I were the proprietor I might have a no drink n shoot policy these days for liability concerns.

But a gunshow restriction on alcohol? Really? As a consumer attending gunshows I think its unfair to allow or promote alcohol to me and not to the dealers. I want them loosened up a little.

Unless I miss my bet, the show rules likely prohibited alcohol in any form in the show, and the rule likely was a rule of the venue.The liability insurance may have been contingent on this rule being strictly enforced.No promoter or venue owner can permit activities that can void their insurance.The key here is that there was a "heated exchange", so already alcohol seemed to be affecting the actions of those involved.They may have been given the chance to remove the alcohol and reacted in a less than acceptable manner.
Mike

Chuck H - are you referring to the one with the full body mount brown bear next to the bar? Went there a few years ago and was getting 'rained on' regularly by the group one or two fields down from us and wondered if they started at the bar...

My mistake...I missed the Friday night sentence...but If the rules so state....whatever.

Until I hear the name of the show and the name of the exhibitor, I am taking this thread with a grain of salt. "No names, it didn't happen." I also agree with King Brown's comment, prompting this post. Of course, if it is the OGCA show, there is little slack given the members, but still would like to know the name of the exhibitor.

I agree with Mike that this stemmed from a breaking of show and/or venue rules, and that it probably would have affected liability insurance coverage.

The other thing I find interesting is that the two that were partaking were so defensive of their being able to take a drink that they were willing to be expelled from the show. No way to know, but the heated exchange may well have resulted from feeling "ten feet tall and bulletproof", as they say.

SRH

And as stated could have been a case of letting your alligator mouth overload your coon dog a--.

An interesting contrast to the Game Fair.

About 100,000 people attend over three days, bars are open all day long, and several hundreds will be shooting the clay competitions. Many exhibiters will be offering guests and customers a glass of wine, and there are several licensed restaurants, not least on the CLA stand. Been like that for 50 years with remarkably few KIA.

As to exhibition venues, over time I've probably set up and manned around a hundred stands, and can't recall a single instance where alcohol was forbidden by contract or the Ts & Cs. A few beers and a couple of bottles of wine were standard issue.

I have grave feelings of unkosherness about the original report.

Extract from the Ts and Cs of The National Exhibition Centre below....

In other words providing we get our cut, no problem.

Eug

I agree with gspspinone. In my mind no one should in good conscience defend the drinking of alcohol while handling firearms anytime in a gunshow venue. The other deep concern I have with this situation is the dealer is widely known for having the majority of his inventory on consignment. Some of you reading this may have a gun on consignment with him now. I have talked with him about consigning guns. He not only advertises on the internet but stresses that he goes to the major shows across the country. I am not comfortable with drinking and my own guns at home let alone a gun on consignment somewhere across the country.

Ruffg, you have no idea what you are talking about. Many high end gun shows in this country and the sporting fairs in this country and in Europe allow and encourage the intelligent consumption of alcohol at their shows. If you would attend a show you would understand what is going on out in the real world. Thank you for posting and get back to us when you have participated in our hobby for more than a few minutes. Nine posts? Thank you Eugene Molloy for your informative post. Ruff has not yet let us know who this exhibitor is, if he exists.

I've been away from the Midwest for quite some time but when I resided there I used to regularly attend the CADA Shows which were held at the Pheasant Run Resort. There was an open bar at the show and in all my years of attendance I don't remember one issue due to this.
Any well regulated show that I know of requires all firearms to be unloaded and secured, usually with cable ties, to prevent any kind of accidents. How drinking in moderation which was all I ever observed under these circumstances can be an issue is a mystery to me.
N.B: The major gun shows in Arizona where I now reside have a no alcohol policy. This is solely due to the fact that the promoter is Mormon. Other smaller shows here have no such policy.
Jim

From where does the assumption come that any introduction of alcohol leads to inebriation? There are plenty of responsible people who can have a sip and not be steered toward stupid adventures.

Ok, should be easy to persuade a liability insurer to make an exception for responsible people and only apply the "no drinking" rule to the irresponsible.

I may be running against the grain of popular opinion when it comes to the consumption of alcohol in North America but to me it's much like having guns.

It's how we behave that should count, not whether we have had a drink or own a gun.

I make my own choices about this stuff. I never, ever have a drink while working. I never, ever drink before or during shooting. But those are my choices and I could care less about someone else having a drink while doing those things as long as he behaves responsibly.

I extend this thinking to driving as well. However, I think we should bring the hammer down on someone who causes problem because they have been drinking or because they have used a gun in an inappropriate way.

But that's just me. I think the state should butt out of a lot of things.

Does every gun show require liability insurance or is it conventional wisdom, like blaming lawyers for everything that goes wrong?
I'm not a lawyer, which is evident.

For crying out loud, the biggest antique gun show in the country (Beinfeld's Las Vegas show in January) is held in a CASINO.

I don't know details on this one, but the surmise about requirements -- insurance or municipal regs -- makes sense to me. This may depend on who owns the facility chosen by the producer of the show. My experience is there will be no drinking allowed in a municipal facility, and many shows are held in them.

Jay

We rightfully should have zero tolerance of alcohol at automotive driving events. Why would it be any different for people handling firearms. The anti-gun forces have long promoted a stereotype of hunters as drunken and irresponsible. If we tolerate the use of intoxicants at firearms events we have the potential of shooting ourselves in the foot...

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

Eighthore, I attend gun shows 50 weekends a year. I setup at shows an average of eight times a year, been doing this for the past 28 years, so your right I am green as grass as far as gun shows. I have been reading this forum and others for longer than I can remember. I belong to three double gun collector associations. I have subscribed to the double gun journal since volume 1 issue 1 when Dan used to come to the Columbus Vet Memorial OGCA meetings talking to anyone who would listen about his dream of a quarterly publication dedicated to our beloved double guns. I have read them all cover to cover and refer back often to refresh myself. I figured it out at a young age that you learn more my listening or reading than talking. I think the reference to my total of 9 posts bares this out completely since this fact was pointed out by a person who has 10,511 posts. I did not start this thread to belittle this double gun dealer. Just a discussion on alcohol and guns. If people other than this serial poster would like to know his name I will consider it. I will tell you it happened at the OGCA show in Wilmington Ohio.

Must agree with ruffg, it's courting error to belittle someone's opinion or credibility based on small number of posts, or to attribute credibility based on large number.

Jay

Which is held in the Roberts Centre, a licensed venue, where you can arrange a five hour open bar if you want to.

C&E Gunshows Inc. the organisers, make no mention of alcohol in their online list of conditions, viz..


There's obviously a lot more (or considerably less) to this report than we know at this point.

Eug

OGCA is not affilated with C&E gunshows.

The OGCA application for a table for this show clearly states that alcoholic beverages are prohibited.
The application must be signed by the applicant.
So, in my opinion, the OGCA had they right to do as they did.
I was not there for the incident, so can not comment on what happened or what was said.
I know that early Saturday morning it was certainly a point of discussion.

I myself would never argue with the promoter of the show over this and certainly not when the it clearly states it is against the rules. I do find it just another example of the nanny state we live in. Kind of ridiculous if you ask me, but such is the world today. Kinda like the NTSB pushing for all states to adopt .005 as the BAC limit when all studies point to the fact that it is the folks over .010 that cause the problems. Throwing the baby out with the bath water does come to mind.

Soooo.....who was the dealer?

I would have felt like crap-getting called out on having a beer under the table at a gun show. But ,of course, I wouldn't have been.

They sell beer (and lots of it) at the Wannemacher shows.....not a problem for me. No alchohol during any shooting activities!!!!!!!

Sir, I did not "belittle" you. I stated that you are apparently unaware that a friendly drink is standard procedure at many gun shows in this country, something you are apparently unaware of. I am not ashamed of the number of posts I have made, nor should I be. I, like Eugene, am trying to inform the posters on this thread about what is custom in the gun show world. By the way, Eugene, this is an OGCA show, not a C&E show. Ruffg, I had figured out that the show was the Wilmington show and posted such earlier. As I stated in an earlier post, OGCA runs a tight ship, and will throw a member out the door for many different infractions. I have been an OGCA member for decades. I would still like to know who the exhibitor is.

Bill, "belittle" was my word, not ruffg's. I went back and looked again. The words speak for themselves.

Jay

Was the "adult beverage" a bottle of Jack Daniels or that weak gnat's piss which passes for beer in the USA?

Gunflint, I'm sorry for the wording I used, but the poster is way off the mark and didn't seem to be picking up on what the truth is about a drink and gun shows. I will lighten up, but the poster should get a hold of the facts before he speaks.

Whatever happened to "Oh; sorry. Didn't know it would be a problem", even if you feel you have the right? Must everything become a pi$$ing match?

I'll drink to that!

This topic should be in Misfires... not doublegun related at all.

On the other hand, alcohol is a pretty darned good black powder solvent!

From a mid-20th century instructional manual, McDonald Hastings, How to Shoot Straight:

Notice that when you are in bad form--I hardly care to recommend this, I simply state the fact--you will sometimes find that you shoot straighter, after you have drowned your sorrow in the middle of the day, than you did when you believed that you were on your toes in the morning.

p. 82 First American Edition, 1970.

Of course, Hastings also recommended, in describing the tempo that is the key to successful wingshooting, that you should mount the gun as you would mount a woman, "start gentle, finish hard". (p. 54).

Anyone care to comment on mixing sex and alcohol?

Fin2feather, the original poster chooses not to clarify how the event really went down, even refusing to identify the "offender", even though he knows who he is. I have been trying to get this information since he first posted. "Oh, I didn't know it would be a problem" may have been the actual first reply, but we wouldn't know that. I have given the original poster an apology for my wording, but have gotten no more information from him. For the information of readers, OGCA doesn't give second chances on some infractions, so a polite apology may not have carried a lot of weight. Of course, our OP doesn't give us any information about how it went down.

Alcohol is also a good solvent for Glocks and, I imagine, other polymer/nitrocarburized/stainless steel firearms. I learned this on the internet... ...but it's actually a viable recommendation.

I can't see an a priori necessity to prohibit alcoholic beverage consumption before/after a show when one is setting up tables. Drunken behavior is another matter. But respect for the rules trumps anyone's ideas about reasonableness. There should not have been an argument in this case.

I will not hunt, or shoot at a range, with anyone who has had so much as a sip. That has been my policy for about forever - and is not about to change.

Sam

Sam, you're a good internet friend, but you must understand that we are not talking about the "range" or "hunting" and no one has said anything about an "argument". I explained Ohio Gun Collectors Association, and a written report of an infraction there is often a "guilty" verdict with little chance of appeal. "Argument" does not enter into it. I, for one, am waiting for the original poster to be a gentleman and explain the event. You know me well enough to know that, by now, you would have a five paragraph explanation from me.

When CADA was a good show and appeared three times a year at Pheasant Run Resort in St. Charles, Il., beer was always available. Nobody drank to excess and no foolish behavior.

Thank you for that intelligent anecdote. Some people don't understand intelligent consumption of alcohol.

If someone was seen having a sip of 3.2% beer, and an accident occurred, doncha think that the prosecution lawyer would paint the picture of someone falling down drunk? Follow the money. It's all about liability - real or imagined.

BTW, I got into a contest with an OGCA VP a few years ago when we left early on Sunday to try to avoid a major snowfall for our 5 hour ride home. I did leave early, but it cost me the table location I had spent years working up to. Not much flexibility with the OGCA folks, but they do have a helluva club

when I use to shoot live pigeons. We drank while we were shooting. Never a problem, except probably did not do much for our scores

John Boyd
Quality Arms

Same here in Spain, never been to a live pigeon set up where there wasn´t a restaurant and a bar, best, Mike

Whatever our opinions about alcohol consumption at gun venues, the perps shouldn't have argued. "Sorry, we'll get rid of it right away." would have been the prudent response.

I would like to say I am no teetotaler and did not start this discussion to try convert anyone to sobriety. I very much enjoy drinks or cold beers with my hunting and shooting friends after the guns are put safely away. I feel the same about drinking and driving. I don't drive after I have been drinking and I wont ride with someone who has been drinking. That is just the way I conduct myself no more no less. The OGCA has a set of rules for members that are strictly enforced. The dealer who was expelled broke a rule and was dealt an immediate expulsion. He lost 7 tables rent for this show, is barred from the next show, and his membership will be reviewed for further action. The OGCA runs a tight ship, but is one of the best shows in the country. Has I stated before I have no axe to grind with the dealer. I will say he has a very nice display of guns. The majority he has told me before are on consignment. I was already in setting up has he and another gentleman gently brought the guns into the Roberts Center and carefully laid them out. I can also tell you there was absolutely no gentleness and care as these same guns left the Roberts Center after the incident. I don't know if this was due to alcohol, emotions, or a combination of both.

Yep.

Well yes, if they'd merely been told to stop. These guys were immediately kicked out for violating a known rule -- apparently the heated stuff was their reaction to the consequences.

As far as I'm concerned, drinking alcohol is a personal choice. As to me I don't drink, never have; and at this stage in my life, can't see myself ever taking up the sport. But I do continue to associate with those individuals who are so inclined, to include my B-I-L; and that in spite of the fact that the SOB shot me during a rabbit hunt after he's chugged a couple of beers at a noon lunch break! However, when it comes to mixing drinking with the great outdoors, the one thing I don't ever wish to repeat would be another frog-gigging safari with an individual who is intoxicated; having a gig in one's hand is no fun!

As to the unfortunate guys noted above; rules are rules and I'm sure they were given a copy of same in advance of the show regardless of whether they may have taken time to read them or not. It is my experience that gunshow promotors have safety concerns first and foremost; and that is simply because they have reasons for concern. I still vividly recall an Atlanta gunshow tragedy from a few years ago where a father shot and killed his 14 year old son. Seems he was looking at pistols when the dealer behind the table handed him his personal (loaded) handgun to examine (a loaded gun was a clear violation of gunshow rules); I'm sure all parties involved would have given/done anything to have the power now to undo the chain of events that resulted in this nightmare.

As low information threads go, this is about the lowest.

When I was a 2LT of Field Artillery at Fort Sill back in '67 we thought nothing of having a sandwich and beer at the O club for lunch before shooting our M101A1 105mm howitzers or 50 cal machine gunsin the field in the afternoon. Nobody had more than one and there was never a problem. It was often a battalion officers lunch call so everyone was there. It just wasn't a big deal then but times have changed and we've become much more puritanical about alcohol in the US since then.

how about giving it a break? the man isn't going to give the dealer's name on a public site nor should he. if you are really that interested you can make some calls and find out who it was. then you can open yourself to slander by posting it.

funny, when some people have info they will keep it close to the chest wanting some thing in return, but when some one else has info they are the first to demand they post it or pix etc.

Drawn by John Barsotti for Niedner circa 1940's.

That's rich, Michael. Thanks.

SRH

I have no objection to myself getting pissed before venturing out to my peg but that rule only applies to me. I don't like being around someone else who's been drinking and has a loaded gun in his hand. All my rules are biased. I hate Puritans too.

nialmac, if this shell shuckin', redneck dago, rock and roll Son of Detroit is ever in Philly, I'll buy you a drink. A double. I'm a quarter way through a bottle of 12 year old George Dickel, breaking in a Ser Jacopo I scored on ebay, listening to blues music, staring at the most beautiful woman in the world, crashed out asleep on the couch. Life is good. Puritans SUCK.
Man, Australia gets the cool people, and we get those wankers. Thanks, England!

Ha!