I recently obtained a very nice side by side shotgun. It is a twelve bore with 28" barrels, double triggers, straight grip and splinter forehand. It appears to be a very high grade boxlock extractor action, elaborately engraved with rose and scroll and the wood is very nicely figured in probably circassian walnut. It definitely has a very English look and feel. It is very light and well balanced. This gun is very expertly crafted. It is choked cylinder on right and full on left. It has an automatic safety with the word safe inlaid in gold letters. There is no makers name anywhere on it. It has the word "stil" on the under side of the barrel flats and on the action flat. Also it says "ful" and "choke" also a 12C inside a diamond. Two three lobed crowns with a cross on top over what it looks like the letter Y but with three arms inside a square. The only one of these proof marks I have ever seen before like these is the 12C inside the Diamond on early 20th century English guns. I have no idea what the other marks are...the serial number is 5176.
I would like to find out country of origin and approximate year of manufature,
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The offset screw in the top tang is like Webley and Scott guns used .
LuisH'
thats a pretty nice gun mate.A very pretty boxlock, nice wedges of scroll on the bbls.
Are those English proofs?,I don't think so, they are odd, weird spelling.
Bohemian ?
Raimey or someone will know
Nice gun though mate
cheers
franc
Oganza. Thanks for taking the time to look at this shotgun and post your photos. What you describe seems to make a lot of sense, particularly when it comes to the marks and the long "control" number. I checked out the Hamada web site and took a look at their history and their pre worldII side by side shotguns were very impressive indeed - however comparatively speaking, when observing those photos that I have seen, and those that you kindly shared I will repeat my comment previously posted on shotgun world:
" I was able to look at some of the Japanese guns that you suggested by doing a web search. Some seem very nice indeed. We all know that the Japanese craftsmen are capable of amazing work. Nevertheless there are quite apparent differences between the guns that I viewed in the photos and the shotgun that I introduced for identification. Even though they are quite nice, the Japanese guns have a production look to them, predominantly machined including most of the engraving which seems stamped and very symmetrical - this is a complete contrast to "my shotgun" which has a very custom -bespoke- look and feel to it. The engraving for example is quite deep, very extensive, elaborate, meticulous and -completely hand executed, no doubt about it- The tight checkering is also very nicely done exclusively by hand - It is completely hand fitted and finished with the hand tool marks still slightly visible on the metal. It has considerable cast off and drop which points away from a production model...
I am not saying that this gun is not possibly of Japanese origin - I simply do not know- but comparatively it simply does not seem that way. If you have any additional info. that could shed additional light on this I would certainly appreciate it very much....
Luis, the Japanese made all types and qualities of doubles. A friend has a Japanese made "droplock" that would not take a back seat to most Westley Richards of that same model. It would be interesting to have the engravers who watch here give their take on the engraving on your gun.
Yes. Thanks for your comment. I do understand your point. It could possibly be a higher grade Japanese copy of an English double considering the much nicer wood and all the characteristics that I just mentioned. I should also emphasize the the wood checkered butt is beautifully executed with skipline checkering - one of the best I have ever seen - and yes it would be great if I could get some expert comments on the quality of the engraving for sure. It would be great if we could find out who actually handcrafted this piece.
That crown with a cross certainly isn't a Japanese proofmark. Looks more central European, but doesn't match up with any standard set of proofmarks as far as I can tell.
Sorry I didn't respond on SW forum, it hasn't been working for me the last few days.
These guns are definitely different from the standard production guns like the Miroku, SKB, BSS and Winchester 23's. These guns were built in small numbers by a number of shops, much like the English gun trade. They have excellent wood and metal fitting, as well as hand engraving. Mine are all light and very nice to shoot.
John Mann, a poster on this forum, did much to educate me. Some of his posts show up in the threads below.
Here are links to previous threads on this type of gun:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...6391#Post266391http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20964&page=1
Oganza - thanks for taking the time to educate me about this. I glanced through the various links and sub-links that you provided and took a look at the photos and comments. It all makes a lot of sense that this gun is linked to custom Japanese manufacture. I am totally aligned with you presently. Nevertheless - I have yet to see any of the other "Japanese" side by sides shotguns posted here on the same level of crafstmanship and the highly figured quality of the walnut. When you take a look at my photos I think that you can determine that. Even that "copy" of the Westley Richards" drop lock -even though it is quite nicely done has relatively plain wood compared to mine. In addition the marks on my gun are simple but very clear and crisp -not messy- the long number on the action flat seems to have been stamped long after the gun was manufactured - and is clearly much more recent that the other stamps...
Yes I would be curious to get some feedback from John Mann as he seems to have a great deal of expertise in this area.
Thank you very much for taking the time.
Just a thought (certainly an ignorant one and possibly a dumb one): could that long "serial" or "control" number possibly be TWO different numbers, one prewar and one postwar? I know that civilian small arms in Japan have been rather rigidly controlled since the country was unified, and the system was changed by the American occupation administration. Could the numbers after the "C" be the "new system" serial/registration number?
Considering what you just describe, what are your thoughts? I am curious to know if there is one particular manufacturer in Japan that was likely to produce a gun of this grade prior to WWII...and approximately what year considering that it has 23/4" chambers with relatively tight forcing cones (which were designed for shot shells with fiber wads...; The condition is quite good with still crisp checkering, strong blueing (definitely not restored in any way) all original finish. The barrels are dense with more than appropriate thickness but yet relatively light. It balances just about the hinge pin with slight weight forward (I love that as it provides better swing) but have have primarily used light 21/2" fiber wad loads -Gamebore, RST and H&H...
Thanks for posting additional pictures of your guns - there are some similarities with the engraving to the shotgun at the bottom, which one is that?
I know I have seen the mark that looks like T printed over M somewhere, but I can't place it
BTW some gunmaking schools which choose the strongest, not the most figured, wood for their top guns. The Russian school is one example, there's a thread a bit below speaking of that; Russian guns, incidentally, had the long (70mm) chamber as standard since 1900s, the rationale being that one can shoot short shells from long chambers but not vice versa. The gun discussed, of course, is nowhere near from Russia, I just give this as an example of variations of attitudes to guns and gunmaking across cultures.
"I know I have seen the mark that looks like T printed over M somewhere, but I can't place it"
Think hard please
Did it also have the crown and cross over it?
When I obtained this gun at an estate auction I purchased it as a "German Guild Gun" it was advertised that way - based on the assumption that the crown was a an old Suhl proof mark - Also the stamp with the word "stil" in various places means "style" in German...When I looked at the other marks such as "choke" they certainly appeared English such as the 12C inside the diamond which is an old English mark indicating gauge....; I knew all of these things appeared to be contradictions - but the look and feel of this gun is typical of a pre world war II high grade English boxlock game gun - I examined it closely and the quality is excellent in every respect - and the wood is beautiful - so the origin was not a concern at the time - I fell in love with it
and the price was right - I can tell you the handling, balance and feel of this gun is superb!!
Agreed, Larry...
This also seems to me to be a European proof mark, but from none of the usual suspects.
The monogram below the crown could be a MT, but I sure don't know where would that come from or mean.
Does "Stil" means "steel" in any European language?
WC-
It looks real Japanese copy to me. The proofmarks are only "similar" to British or European proofmarks. None match real proofmarks. The engravers have not commented, but the engraving is "showy" , but not refined. It looks like a Japanese copy of a Webley and Scott, as many of the Japanese guns are copies. I do like it, but that is what I see.
Daryl, I do agree that when you take everything into consideration about this gun it points to Japanese origin. To me this has certainly been an education in a totally new area - but that is the great thing about gun collecting. I am not an expert about the engraving - it would be nice if somebody versed in this area could offer some comments on it.
Thanks
A scroll is the MOST difficult form the execute, engraving wise. VERY few can actually doit well. The larger diameter, the more difficult. We have members here who are expert engravers and perhaps one or more might comment on my remark(s). I can't even draw one and that was the exact position taken by the best teahcers/mentors w/their students. Learn to draw it first, then you can be alowed to try it on metal.
Your gun is a very nice specimen, don't let my remarks detract from that. In the same breath, look closely at the scrolls & you can see what I'm addressing. I'd hope you get much enjoyment from your gun, I would.
Kind regards, tw
I'd guess it was sourced in the white from W&C in Birmingham(safe on top tang) and would assume the other odd crown marks/non Birmingham to be in reference to St. Stephens. With that I'd look toward Romania 1st and possibly Yugoslavia. Some of the other gunmaking centres tilted the cross to one side while this one is erect.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
Think you are right with W&C. But not for Romanis, but for
Denmark. The Crown with cross is danish before 1933.
Regards,
Gunwolf
M V T. ? is the makers sign - V for Vapens, means arms.
Gunwolf
Interesting take but from what I remember Denmark inspection marks were 4 lobed where the one in question has 3 lobes. It is possible that STIL is Germanic in nature, but how does it play into the puzzle. I wonder if it is possible to check with W&S and see where #5176 went?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
According to this web page:
http://doublegunshop.com/dgsnos5.htmIt would place the year of manufacture for a W&C Scott between 1874 / 1875...obviously that's not the case...
"M V T. ? is the makers sign - V for Vapens, means arms"...
So...Gunwolf, Vapens means arms in German and stil means style in German - so there could be a German connection here, on this shotgun - a sort of English / Prussian shotgun or...
like it has been suggested before simply a Japanese manufacturer copying an English model and coming up with a variety of European look alike marks?
By the way I looked at several Webbley & Scott shotguns and even though there are similarities - it was certainly not a revelation... I found more of a connection with the William Evans like the photos posted above. If it was a W. Evans it would have been manufactured 1901 / 1902...
It's common knowledge that at that time, Wm Evans did not manufacture his guns, but had them made for him in Birmingham. If I'm not mistaken, most if not all of guns bearing his name were made by ... Webley&Scott.
Now I don't believe I'm the only one here who studied Historical Comparative Linguistics back at college; I wasn't any good at it, so can't be absolutely certain. But I don't think, with 'steel' having either a long [i:], as in the English language, or a long [a:], as in German 'stahl', there's no way an Indo-European language could have a short [i] in it, and the spelling 'stil' suggests a short [i]. OK, so Hungairan is not an Indo-European language, but afaicr, Hungarian for steel is a borrowed German 'stahl', spelt without h. In a similar manner, I don't expect any language to have the word 'full' spelt in the way it is on the watertable here. The bottom line is, the 'stil' and 'ful' inscriptions on the gun, I think, are an attempt to fake 'European proof marks', supporting the Japanese origin theory.
For the moment, I don't see the Japanese connection but that does not mean too much at that point. So you are saying the Japanese were poor spellers? If you hold with Denmark, FUL could be a truncation from FULD. Very odd that the sporting weapon wears STIL in 4 places. Indeed more pondering is warranted. I would say we are thinking out loud at this point?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks everyone for you feedback!!!
1.The mark "choke" that is certainly English.
2.The 12 c inside the Diamond is also an old English stamp - however in the way they are stamped is not typical of what I have typically seen in any English shotguns.
3.The stamp "stil" -repeated four times- certainly means style in German (or is it simply bad spelling - four times -.
4.The stamp "ful" is certainly a mystery...(or is it also bad spelling).
5. The crown over the letters that appear to be T V M - and not necessarily in that order - is a very clear mark and I don't think it is an attempt to copy or imitate anything or any European stamp that I have ever seen - I do believe it is a legitimate stamp...
6. The long "control number" which seems to have been stamped much more recently than the other marks - Japanese origin? Or something else?
Well, legimate proof marks don't contain misspelt words.
Again, I haven't seen much, but on every gun I've seen, when a marking on a gun says 'steel', it also specifies which steel. Krupp steel, best quality steel, Sir Whitworth's Fluid Compressed Steel... Laminated Steel, Damascus Steel - yes, those were counted as steel, so it hardly means 'not damascus'.
Yes, I am thinking out loud
"Well,
legimate proof marks don't contain
misspelt words."
I guess we are all just thinking out loud...but my point was that the mark "stil" may not be referring to
steel at all. That seems to be an assumption - It is in four different places not just on the barrels - and it does mean "style" in German - that's for certain - Obviously the stamp "choke" is proper English...right?
While "choke" is English, it's certainly been used as a proofmark on guns of other than English origin. Belgian, for one.
Thanks for your input.
That's for sure - but that was not the point of discussion here. The Belgians made some guns often with English sounding names such as Richards, Manton, Moore,etc ...and so forth obviously sort of re-creating English guns - The proof marks were recognizably from Belgium however - although they could contain an English look alike stamp here and there. This gun has -no name- anywhere. I believe that we were questioning wether or not whoever manafuctured this shotgun took the arduous time to produce a very high grade boxlock double in every respect and then simply stamped meaningless marks and words that remotely seem like English - If you believe that theory it means they got one spelled right "choke" and two spelled wrong "ful" and "stil" (four times), and then a crown with letters that does no match anything thusfar recognizable. According to some people on this forum this is characteristically Japanese (although there is not one single mark associated with Japan)further substantiated by the long series of numbers on the action flat assumed to be a Japanese export control number.
probably a long shot - but I looked around for that MVT or TVM mark and come up with something for VMT which is/was a Finnish manufacturer.
quote:
In the 1920s the government of the young Republic of Finland decided to establish a rifle factory. In 1926, the district of Tourula on the northeast edge of Jyväskylä was chosen as the most suitable location. The first product of the Finnish State Rifle Factory (Valtion Kivääritehdas) was the Lahti-Saloranta light machine gun, which was followed also by relatively heavy weaponry, such as a 20mm machine cannon and a 20mm anti-tank rifle. Throughout the Second World War the factory worked non-stop to supply the army. According to the terms of the 1944 Peace Treaty, however, arms production was terminated. At the same time, none of the workers could be dismissed.
The Tourula factory was thus converted to produce goods for war reparations and civil use. Building and metal tools, dentist chairs and mechanical adding machines were produced for the domestic market that was rapidly rebuilding after the war. Binding and woodworking machinery was in turn produced as war reparations.
During the period of war reparations, the former defensive weaponry plants owned by the Finnish State were combined under a new organisation, the State Metal Works (
Valtion Metallitehtaat, VMT). In addition to the Rifle Factory, VMT included a former Cannon Factory, an Aircraft Works and its engine plant in Linnavuori in Nokia, and the Pansio Ship Works.
unquote
http://history.valtra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10%3A1926-kivaeaeritehdas-tourulaan&catid=5&lang=en
also, the NRA Museum has a VMT target 'Match' Rifle, made between 1937 and 1972
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-...rget-rifle.aspxSo, the quality work was there - perhaps 'ful' and 'stil' make some sense in thefinnish language ?
as I said, probably a shot in the dark, but perhaps worth pursuing
Regards from England
Günter
NRA Life 1974
Thanks Gunter for looking into this mystery shotgun. I looked around and the comppany you mentioned produced only rifles - and supplied some parts for early Valmet Shotguns and shotgun rifle combinations very utilitarian type of guns here is what they looked like:
- and the story ends there apparently
Could it be Swedish?
Choke in Swedish is surprisingly choke.
Stil in Swedish means style (and that is why I always thought the stamp is not referring to a type of steel - it refers to the style of the shotgun and that is why it is repeated four times - also on the action not just on the barrel flats.
Full in Swedish is fullständig but it is often abbreviated to simply ful
Well....surprise! surprise!
Still looking into the crown stamp with the letters...any help with that would be great.
I just stumbled over this eGun Rifle, please note the long number....!
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4457507and on this note the Crown with Cross on the stock...!
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4493293Best Regards,
Gunwolf
Thanks for sharing!
So far this is actually the closest I have seen to it with different letters under the crown of course:
Well,
If you have a look here:
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4107179MAERENS TOJHUS. = MT. !!!!
The year is 1911.......
BTH, I think STIL is a shortcut for whatever.
Regards,
Gunwolf
Sorry, made a mistake, it's HAERENS TOJHUS ....
Gunwolf
Hi Gunwolf! Thanks for your efforts. Thusfar everything that I have looked into points towards Sweden - when you put it all together.
1. The simplified Swedish crown with cross above which is a very close match to the one on the gun.
2. The stamp "choke" - is exactly the same in Swedish.
3. The stamp "stil" repeated four times means "style" in Swedish.
4. The stamp "ful" is simply an abbreviation of "fullständig" in Swedish and commonly used that way.
Questions remain:
- The 12C inside diamond - I thought this was exclusively an old Birmingham proof mark...
- The juxtaposed letters that appear to be T and M under the crown...
I found this "T" mark under youguslavian proof marks...
Curiously they also used the stamp "choke"
I was able to detect the number 13 on the barrel breach stamped under the extractor...
any ideas what this could mean?
Probably the original bore diameter: .719 vs the 12ga standard of .729.
Yes, I would agree with Mr. Brown as it is more than likely one of the vulgar fractions, 13, 13/1, etc. Odd location though.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks for the info.
Does this provide any new clues at all as to the origin of this piece...? I believe the only time I have ever seen shotguns stamped with the original bore diameter was on vintage English shotguns...or I am I incorrect about that?
Not just English guns. I owned a Sauer 20ga from the 1930's that was marked 19, and was indeed overbored compared to the 20ga standard .615 bore diameter.
So...in this case it was originally under-bored (13) and as they drill the barrels and develop it into a 12 gauge some of the steel is removed? Makes sense - If it is over-bored like you Sauer what do they do? Add steel into it? I don't get it?
Anyway...what I was wondering actually was ----- if it is common practice to indicate original bore size on barrels - obviously English, apparently German - any other countries? What period of time specifically...?
Thanks
Just wild conjecture, but it sounds like a country that had set it's cap for the 16 bore, if the 13 is one of the vulgar fractions. Ford may be able to elaborate but it seems that not near as many 12s were rolled out as 16s, which were typically stamped 16 and sometimes 17, 17/1, etc.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I see - but I have had several English guns with the "13" stamp as well - including a late 19th cent. hammer W&C Scott, a Harris, and a boxlock Turner among others - that I can remember specifically - and I do not believe England is or was ever known to lean towards the 16 gauge...
Anyway - the quest goes on....
So...in this case it was originally under-bored (13) and as they drill the barrels and develop it into a 12 gauge some of the steel is removed?
The bore size was normally stamped by the proof house. They neiter add nor remove metal in the bore, but simply stamp what it IS. Realize that at the time these gauge sizes were marked checking was done with a plug gage & the bbl was marked per the largest size which would enter the bore to the specified distance (Usually about 9"). Nothing more was done to the bore except perhaps some final polishing. "IF" the bore which the proof house marked as a 13 had been enlarged to 12 it would have been Out of Proof when sold new, so very doubtful this would have been done. The bore size does not depict the actual shell the gun is chambered for. I have one old English gun with the bbls marked 14. It is old enough according to the proof marks to predate either the chamber marking or fractional sizes,as 13/1 for instance. It is quite pitted but the bores currently measure just under a 13 size & may be how it was made to begin with.
Thanks for clarifying that - does this practice based on your experience point to any other countries other than England and apparentely Germany? - as you know I have been tryng to find out the origin of this shotgun - so far unfortunately it's been essentially conjecture...nothing conclusive...
Thanks
... I also noticed that a four leaf clover is repeated among the scroll in various areas of the engraving - sometimes in miniscule detail...any particular significance?
Louis,
I concur with Oganza - that the gun is Japanese. I have a Kasuga 20 bore with the proof mark that's a BV under a Crown. I'll post some pictures soon. In the 90's the Gov of Japan required all guns to have a serial # of 11 digits or more, so many older guns with shorter serial #'s were re-stamped with the new 11 digit serial number. Japanese proof marks are almost non-existant on older guns and there seems to be have been no standard.
Oganza, It looks like on of your pics is a Kasuga (with the scalloped action) - is it?
Louis,
I'm going to make two post of 2 Japanese Guns - both made by Kasuga.
First is a 20 bore - It DOES have the BV proof mark.
The other photos are loaded to show the quality of these guns.
I also have a Kasuga but it has NO proof marks. Miroku seems to be the only Japanese company with consistent proof marks - even SKB and Nikko are inconsistent with their marks.
Louis,
Here is the 2d post. It's a Kasuga 12 bore.
It does NOT have the BV proof marks.
Hi Patrick! Thanks for the information and your feedback which makes a lot of sense. However, I have to admit that I remain skeptical - The only true commonality I see is the long stamped serial number - none of the other marks are the same at all - do these guns have a Japanese maker's name such as Kasuga on it? There are also considerable mechanical differences if you care to examine closely in the action such as the double screw in the center of top lever and the off set screw on the tang among many others differences - I also feel that there is a significant difference in the quality of the wood, and overall refinement / wood to metal fit /and attention to detail. ( I hope I am not biased in this statement).
Thanks
The similarities to this early twentieth cent. Webley & Scott are remarkable - Even the engraving type and style...Is this what they call the screw grip or treble action? The additional smaller screw on the top lever? What about the off set to the left side screw on the tang? Why was is placed in such a way?
Have you seen any Japanese English copies made with this type of action?
The scalloped action with the scroll engraving doesn't have any maker's name. It looks like several Kasuga guns that I have seen, but I doubt we will ever know for certain.
Hi Oganza! I just received this e-mail as a response for my request of information from Hamada & Sons on this shotgun:
Dear Mr.Ferreia.
Thank you for your E-Mail.
I think this shot gun were made by Matsui Gun Shop in Tokyo.
May be this is manufactured in 1950 & 1960.
Mr Matsui ceased his businness about late of 1980.
We are sorry our reply is so delay.
Shugo Hamada
Hamada & Son Ltd.
Do you know anything about this Japanese shotgun manufacturer? I did a web search and came up with this shotgun on sale at a shop in New Zealand:
http://www.guncity.co.nz/12g-matsui-side-by-side-xidp234507.htmlThere seem to be similarities to my shotgun but the image is not very clear unfortunately...
Here is another e-mail from Hamada following some more specific questions:
Dear Mr. Feieira
Sorry for delay response,
Yes sorry Matui, Matsui Mitsui are all same shotguns and were I think mostly really made by skband sent to US I said ending in late 80’s. Perhaps this shotgun is much older – may not be so, sorry I cannot identify for certain if markings are the japanse, it just seems like some shotguns ssen here in Japan long ago with wood really very much good for sure nice gun enjoy.
Shugo Hamada
Hamada & Son Ltd.
Well....based on this - I guess we are back to square one?
In retrospect I thing I remember seeing some Mitsui / SKB side by side shotguns in this forum...but I simply don't see the connection to this shotgun, or any of the Japanese guns posted on this forum thusfar - on my end skepticism remains that it is Japanese.
Any actual photos of any side by side Mitsui shotguns for comparison would be appreciated.
The similarities to this early twentieth cent. Webley & Scott are remarkable - Even the engraving type and style...Is this what they call the screw grip or treble action? The additional smaller screw on the top lever? What about the off set to the left side screw on the tang? Why was is placed in such a way?
Have you seen any Japanese English copies made with this type of action?
Luis,
Not sure if the following will help or further confuse things, but Ron Sharpe told me today that he supplies SKB parts to a fellow in the U.K. who works on Webley & Scott guns. Apparently the Japanese copied the W&S, so much so that the parts are interchangeable.
Luis,
The Mitsui SxS were the same SKB guns imported by Ithaca, models 100, 200 etc. After Ithaca broke the arrangement Mitsui marked SKB's were sold here in the US with the same model numbers in the 70's to early 80's.
The SKB boxlocks are a loose copy of Webley and Scott 700 series guns. Changes made to simplify manufacture. Not sure if parts would interchange. Possibly with some fitting.
Chief
I reluctantly agree that this could be a custom Japanese copy of a Webley however not the 700 because it has the treble grip screw action and the double set screw in the top lever like the comparison photo I posted earlier of a much higher grade boxlock.
Here is a larger view:
A few added comments: Although the small screw in the top lever of a gun with a rib extension is one clue that it MIGHT be a Screw Grip, there's an easy way to tell for sure: Break the gun open (or better yet, detach the barrels) and look at the slot in the standing breech. If you see threads in the slot, then it's a Screw Grip.
I don't believe the Mitsui SKB guns were imported past the late 70's. Didn't last long after Ithaca and SKB went their separate ways. I currently have a pretty unusual Mitsui SKB: 20ga Model 400 Skeet. I think all the Mitsui guns were clearly marked "SKB". Mine has "Made by SKB Arms Company Japan" on the right barrel; "SKB Model 400 20ga 2 3/4" Proof Tested" over "Mitsui & Co. (USA), Inc., Chicago, Ill." on the left barrel.
No threads ....so it is not an screw treble grip but a type of "hidden" rib extension third fastener (as seen on other Webley's - no bolt protrudes out of the action- a bar goes across and securely locks the rib extension in place.
But my point was that this is not specifically a copy of the Webley 700 because that model never had a rib extension with a third bite and no additional screw in the top lever either - also still don't know why the screw on the tang is off to the side.
Nice picture
Off center screw is typical of Webleys.
Thanks Daryl. Just to clarify that what I am referring to is not about the two screws in the top lever - a larger screw and a smaller off center screw behind it - my question was about the large off center screw on the tang just ahead of my thumb in the photo. Are we talking about the same thing?
Yes, the screw [offset]that goes through the top tang.
Striking similarities to the Cogswell & Harrison Avant Tout ...
Well it certainly is a beautiful gun. Japanese? English Best Maker? Even if by some twist of fate that were the case, without the appropriate markings the gun might as well be Japanese. I do agree that the engravings appear to be by hand, due to the slight lack in uniformity. If someone bought a Webley & Scott out the back door of the factory, and somehow it went out missing the makers mark - it would never be viewed by the market as a Webley & Scott even though the original buyer would know that to be the case.
Did the fellow in Japan tell you WHY he thought the gun was of that particular gun house? Specific markings? Surely his guess was based on more than general appearance.
[quote=LuisHunter1]Here is another e-mail from Hamada following some more specific questions:
"...it just seems like some shotguns ssen here in Japan long ago with wood really very much good for sure nice gun enjoy."
Shugo Hamada
Hamada & Son Ltd.
Would anyone out there be able to identify what this type of walnut actually is on this shotgun (walnut type, geographic origin..etc (perhaps this migh be a clue) - it seems that Mr. Hamada has never seen this type of high grade walnut on Japanese shotguns "of long ago".
Only when there is a horse shoe around the top lever axis.
This is not a screw grip... At least, not by Webley.
WC-
The checkering is the most noticeable difference I see. Your gun has a rather unique style with the overlapping layers of straight lines. Almost like a tennis racket without the weaves, or music strings. I'd be interested to know if the other guys with Japanese guns have this same style of checkering, or if their guns have one of the more traditional styles.
Clearly not a screw grip, but an extend rib third bite also very commonly produced by Webley as seen in the comparison photo of a Webley similar to the shotgun in question that I provided on a previous page of this thread. Third bites (without a screw grip) and slight variations thereof are illustrated in several Webley catalogs. As far as the checkering, I was simply attempting to point out the high quality of its execution. The exact styles of checkering (English or otherwise) even vary among guns of the same type and maker. Not sure if the butt of any of the Japanese shotguns presumably associated with this gun were left finished "in the wood" in this way. Again, based on my correspondence, Mr. Hamada - obviously an individual of knowledge in this area cannot clearly ascertain that this shotgun is Japanese and has certainly never seen wood of this grade and quality on "older" Japanese shotguns. This is why I was seeking expert wood feedback as to the possible type of walnut and geographic origin - any wood experts out there?
Also kind of interesting that the checkering on the butt doesn't match the rest of the gun. Is that common in guns with checkered butts?
Yes - quite often that seems to be the case. Typically the checkering on the butt is different that the pattern applied to the wrist and fore-end.
Just out of curiosity (from the SKB web site):
History of SKB Shotguns
In 1548, Portuguese explorers landed on Tanegashima Island in the Province of Kyushu, Japan. These merchants were the first to bring modern guns into Japan during the time of the Japanese Civil War. These clan leaders needed modern weapons for their samurai warriors to run countryside.
By the later half of the 19th century, the Mito clan was well established in an area northeast of Tokyo. In a small gun repair factory, which belonged to the clan, Mr. Shigyo SaKaBa worked as a gunsmith’s apprentice. In 1855, at the age of 20, the feudal lord appointed Shigyo SaKaBa to the position of gunsmith to supervise the development and production of guns for the clan.
This small factory was known for its craftsmanship; producing guns of the highest quality and strongest construction. Mr. Shigyo SaKaBa is considered to be the founder of the current SKB (SaKaBa) Arms Company. Today, SKB incorporates modern technology with old world craftsmanship to produce a complete line of premier grade competition shotgun.
Here is a photo of a Webley with and extend rib third fastener system very similar to my shotgun:
Here is another comparison photo. Notice also the striking similarity in the engraving style and execution.
"I'd guess it was sourced in the white from W&C in Birmingham..."
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
If that were the case - and undoubtedly Webley did offer a lot of shotguns in the white all over the world actually according to what was described in their old catalogs - would the stamps and proof marks be applied to the barrels and barrel flats in the white?
Here is a Jefferey with the top tang screw off center like my shotgun. Did they make their own guns or were they also made by Webley?
It was always my understanding that the Webley & Scott model copied by SKB was the post-WWII Model 700. The 700's have neither a rib extension nor an off-center top tang screw--nor did the guns made for Ithaca by SKB. My 1961 Shooter's Bible has a couple of pages on "SKB Custom Shotguns", and an add for an "SKB Royal Deluxe Shotgun". (The price for the basic Royal Deluxe, which was a double trigger, nonejector gun, is listed as $400--far higher than the guns later imported by Ithaca. However, the photos of those guns also show barrels with no rib extension, and without the off-center top tang screw.)
...yes - clearly this shotgun bears no similarity to any SKB that I have ever seen. If this is indeed a Japanese "copy" of an English shotgun it seems to be from a much earlier time pre-world war II, possibly 1920's or 1930's -as it has been suggested here - of custom manufacture. There are several early Webley's, and other English "gun makers" from that time period with guns of identical configuration.
Here is a Gogswell & Harrison from the early 1930's and another view of my shotgun for comparison (also how the action is blued as well and not color case hardened - commonly seen at that time):
From which maker would you prefer the gun to have originated? If it will make you feel better to say that the gun is a London-made "Best" gun then just go right ahead and tell people whatever you want to tell them. Very few people will care enough to notice the difference, and likely none of those will be rude enough to mention it.
Surely you misunderstand my intentions my friend - I am not on a quest to make myself feel better in this way (fortunately I have developed better coping skills
. Nor I am out to prove anything for that matter. Admittedly, I lack the broad span of knowledge clearly demonstrated in this illustrious forum...therefore, I cherish and hold in high regard any clues (even yours) and suggestions so kindly offered here and I am enjoying immensely participating in that seemingly endless process - and expanding on some of those notions...isn't that "the fun" when studying old guns? That lingering and sweet , however unsettling, sensation of questions unresolved
Here is a photo of a Webley with and extend rib third fastener system very similar to my shotgun:
That could well be a W&S Model 400, made in different grades from 1900-46, and replaced by the 700. Earlier Scotts, at least from the photos in the Scott book, used either a doll's head extension or, more commonly, one with a piercing for a square crossbolt in the extension. The later ones, if they had a rib extension, used the type shown in the photo or the standard Greener with a round piercing in the extension. There aren't any photos in the Scott book showing a fork-like extension (metal above and below the bite) similar to the one on your gun. Or at least I think that's your gun. I've gotten somewhat turned around in this very long discussion. Might be that someone here is aware of a W&S with a rib extension like yours, however.
Thanks. Quite right - my gun, (in the previous comparison photo) does indeed have a fork-like extension (metal both above and below the bite)so in that specific respect it is unlike the W&S shown above. Have you ever seen this type of rib extension third bite?
I think your gun is a well executed copy of several English guns that were in a one or two man gunsmithing operation in pre-war Japan. There are a mix of features (the barrel rib extension, the lock screw on the lever screw, the raised metal sections near the detonators) that never seem to appear on any single model of English gun.
I would guess that the crew took some measurements, added a few refinements, and had at it, producing a boxlock. There used to be lots of one man shops in Japan, and some day I'll show you a photo of a custom 7mm magnum Remington my Dad had built when he was over in Okinawa.
My Dad had a hell of a time trying to explain to the guy that he couldn't blue the barrel-Dad finally held up his Zodiac watch band and asked the guy "can blue?" That's when the light went on in the guys head. He black chromed the barrel.
Dad said there were lots of little shops that did various levels of custom work, circa 1962. If I didn't tell you it was done in Japan, you wouldn't know.
Best,
Ted
Thanks Ted. What you just described certainly makes a lot of sense. The critical aspect : a handcrafted well executed copy of a typical high grade English boxlock with a mix of features - pre WWII - and likely even earlier 20th cent.
I always felt that the crown with cross and superimposed TM letters is the actual mark of the gunshop and not an attempt to imitate anything...
Have you ever seen this type of rib extension third bite?
Yes. Some very common American doubles (Stevens, Lefever Nitro Special) use a fork-like rib extension. Expect some British doubles may as well, although I can't recall ever having seen it on a Scott, a Webley, or a Webley & Scott. But that's covering a lot of territory, and someone else may well have seen that particular type of extension.
My Webley & Scott made Army & Navy shotgun has a similar forked rib extension although not exactly the same. Made in 1902.
Sorry for the phone pics.
All the best
Skeeterbd
...very nice gun and indeed very similar to mine - I guess it essentially retorts the previous statement made by Ted "There are a mix of features (...the barrel rib extension, the lock screw on the lever screw, the raised metal sections near the detonators) that never seem to appear on any single model of English gun" because all of those features are clearly present here in one shotgun.
The treatment of the wood near the raised sections behind the detonators on your gun is not typical for English guns. Further, your gun would appear to be missing the disc set strikers seen on the Webley.
It might be splitting hairs, but, not having identical features would point to a home produced action, rather than a sourced action, bought raw and finished.
I doubt we can know for sure with what we have to go on.
Best,
Ted
Ted, I actually agree with you in the sense that the shotgun in question seems to be of custom manufacture. Thanks for your observations and thoughtful comments.
Chapter 1 in the link below speaks of how small Japanese makers would copy a model of an English gun while at the same time borrowing features from other guns.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=zEV7CIBT...ons&f=false
Yes - indeed very informative - thanks for sharing. According to what he describes in the book, this shotgun seems to be of the earlier type (1920's / 1930's where it was a custom made order and handcrafted copy in the "English style". I don't see any features in this gun of anything else...or any other influences. Please correct me if I am wrong. Too bad the author does not go into more specific details about specific gun makers names and so forth...any idea if there is any literature out there elaborating on this
Ach! It ends with a mystery. What did Kanzuo Kanzawa tell him that was so interesting??
Good grief...just what we need - another riddle
- must be due to the sub zero temps in Ontario; around here we seem to be suffering from similar maladies...
According to Geoffrey Boothroyd, lower-grade Webley guns were sold with no name on them...and in fact distributed to several countries either as complete finished guns, or in "the white" or just as barreled actions...; only with view specification marks - this shotgun mostly resembles the A&W 50 series in their 1914 catalog (a gun for the trade) with various configurations, grades and degrees of finish...
