This is an order from a client for a new 12-bore Holland & Holland system sidelock ejector. The gun is being built by hand (not from a kit of CNC parts like Holland gun now are). This is the actioning stage. We should have it ready for stocking in April. Barrels are best 30" chopper-lumps.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=5...e=1&theater

Beautiful parts Dig. Being a machinist for many years, I'm interested in how these parts were made as opposed to your reference to Holland guns. Can you elaborate on this point a bit?
Regards
Chuck

These are made from forgings from Phillipsons. filed up by a London trained actioner.

Holland & Holland now CNC and spark erode the parts so that they just need fitting. A lot of traditional actioning work is now being done by machine.

We thought we'd go the traditional route with these guns, just to show what we can do using the methods the British gun trade is known for. We wanted it to be a real, hand made gun.

I predict that in the future, most British guns will be assembled from close-to-form CNC made parts, provided in kit-form.

Shavings and filings on the bench or shop floor are the same, whether done as it was 1903, or with today's high tech- CNC and CAD-CAM techniques. When my late Grandfather did his apprenticeship, you had a vise, a set of files and a Try-square and a block of not rolled steel with the "bark" still on all six sides- and with the afore-mentioned tools and gauge, you had to file it to a perfect cube--Even in my apprenticeship years in Jr. High and High school (1950's) the shapers, lathes with tracers, Bridgeport Milling machines and the top precision tool in his shop- a jig boring machine (Clausing?)- took time to master. I remember when he gave me a blueprint for a circular shape of free machining brass, two 3/8" thru holes at top and bottom of the circle- aprox, 4" OD and .500" thick- then slotted- so I went from lathe )LeBlond) to drill press (Atlas) and then to the Bridgeport mill- when I had it done and checked to print, I proudly called my Grandfather over and asked him to check it for me- "Okay, Sonny--follow me" and he headed for the lavatory- removed the piss cupcake that was plugging the center drain hole in the urinal trough, dropped it over the two locating pins, looked at me and smiled- and said "Yup- that'll do it just right" and patted me on the shoulder--

Very nice! Is there a chance that the construction of this fine gun will be chronicled in The Double Gun Journal?

Dig,
That's super impressive file work. Just to be clear, there were conventional non-CNC mills and lathes used to machine the forgings and all surfaces are then hand-filed to fit and finish?
Thanks
Chuck

Wow, very cool work.

What did the "action" look like before the actioner started work on it? I would love to see some before and after shots.

Did he use jigs and templates to get eveything right? Or does he just eyeball it?

How long did it take to go from raw to finished?

Thanks for sharing.

OWD

What are the costs of machine vs hand work

bill

Depends whether you have the machine or not!

The owner of a Canadian shipyard acquiring new technology to build destroyers told me 25 years ago if his company hadn't won the contract it would have been out of the shipbuilding business forever. Maybe I'm an incurable romantic but it seems this British going-back to the beginning is the same thing.

Chuck, no CNC used here at all.

Still, the machinist skills needed to machine a gun for hand fitting are formidable.

Too right!

Phillipsons are as good as it gets and have been making gun parts for a very long time.They used to make Purdey's actions until Purdey's started to machine their own.They still make action for several other very well known UK gun manufacturers.
It is almost as quick to build guns from these kind of parts, if the machinings are good, as the fully cnc'd type parts.You also have the added bonus of being able to file the gun up to whatever shape you desire rather than what your given with the 3 dimensionally milled type action machinings.

Interesting statement.

If one were to review pages 54 through 65 of the book "David McKay Brown" by Donald Dallas one will see several photos of Hugh and Jeff Phillipson's shop with these two gentlemen standing in front of and working with their various CNC equipment (including EDM's for spark erosion maching) that they have been using to machine the slots for quite some time in the actions that Philipson's supply to the trade.

On page 58 of the above referenced book, Donald Dallas speaking of a period of 10 years or so ago states: "He (David Brown) also discussed with the well known component suppliers J.B. Phillipson their need to invest in new CNC machinery and soon after this they (Phillipson's) invested in a spark eroder and a wire cutter, Jeff and Hugh Phillipson were aware that not enough work for their firm was being generated by conventional machining and that they had to move forward. David guaranteed Phillipson work to help justify their purchase of a new Chameil machine."

If an action forging was purchased from Philipson's in the last 10 years, I suspect that it had to have some "CNC" machining work done to it prior to it leaving their shop.

Of course, the reknown gunmaker "Mr. Pugwash" (post above) knows this better than me.

Bv

I had the opportunity to visit the H&H factory back in 2001. They were using CNC machines back then, but there was still a lot of hand work involved.

I would hope that gunmakers that are at the top of the trade use all the modern tools available to them to make their product better. How and when to use certain tools is where skill and knowledge come together.

The photo shows excellent work, and I say that after having filed and shaped most parts of a SXS.

Greener writing in 1910 supports the use of machine tools when possible. So the idea that traditional makers resorted exclusively to hand filing is inaccurate. Using modern machines to arrive at the same result as hand work is legitimate. After all, the part that counts is the final fitting and heat treatment, not the stock removal that gets you there.

What is NOT legitimate is not telling, allowing the naive to fool themselves about the term "hand made". Even worse is not passing the cost savings to the buyer.

Purdey production manager Bruce Owen in an article he authored, threw that one to the marketing department, leaving the question he posed re cost unanswered.