Hello All,
Buckstix and I might have bored the whole board to death with our Lefaucheux rifle adventures, but something is puzzling me.

When looking at my 1898 rifle, there is a 5 digit number on the bottom rib with a specific font. Often this is followed by a date.




I assumed until now that it was a Lefaucheux number, and then I realized that I had seen similar numbers before on other guns with Bernard barrels.
I have seen this on "no brand" guns, Guyot, Chapu, Lepage and Lefaucheux...

the dates are:

Devisme #3583 : 1843
No pic

Perrin #8184 : 1854
No Pic

Lepage-Moutier
#6084 : 1850



#17078: 18??



Lefaucheux described here

#19526 : 1866

#20938:1868



No name lever action
#23177 : 1870


Faure Lepage #24759:1873



Guyot #30685 : 1882



Roblin #33??? : A
The first A I know of. The number looks like 33169.

Guyot #357xx : ????



Pigeon #37xxx : post 1899



Gastine Rennette #38083: post 1899


So now the issue is that:
- The only obvious common element is the barrel maker (Bernard)
- A barrel maker is not usually providing the ribs, and even less assembled tubes

So either:
- Bernard was actually providing the assembled gun to all these guys
- somebody else was and from 1850 to 1900s! I sure don't know who that could be...

If you guys have Bernard barrels from any maker please look for this numbering and report, that would be fantastic!

Good hunt,

WC-

P.S> US Parkers don't seem to have this...

I found another one today:

Roblin 35237 : H pre 1899.

A this point I believe the following:

Bernard made barrel assemblies that he sold to gunmakers.
These sets included the tubes, lumps, probably the forend loop and for sure the bottom short rib.

It turns out that other barrel makers have been doing the same. For instance Heurtier was producing barrel sets which were silver soldered in their factory.

The barrel numbers are on the bottom short rib with a sequential number and a date separated by a dot.

The date was replaced by a letter at some point in the 1880s or 90s. This makes sense as the makers might not want a barrel date older than the gun manufacturing date.
I don't have example of all the letters, so I don't know if they were all used.
I suspect that H might be 1896 or 1897.
If a straight alphabetic order was used, it would have started in 1888 or so.
If you have Leopold Bernard barrel tube sets, please look and report.

All the best!
WC-

I have nothing substantial to add to the discussion, but in a way of encouragement, what you're doing is very interesting. Keep it up!

Just curious here- what are the scratched marks on the right tube flat on the Gaston Renette set of barrels?

Another theory: Perhaps Bernard, in order to protect his copyright, cartouche and reputation, wouldn't allow the gunmakers to stamp "Bernard" on the barrels unless they stamped a unique serial number on the rib. This serial number would be furnished by Bernard along with his tubes. If a gunmaker started stamping "Bernard" on barrels that weren't made with his tubes they wouldn't have the serial number furnished by Bernard and thus could be held accountable.

Think fake Gucci purses, Rolex watches, etc...



Best,


Mike

The scratch marks are a full set of reinforced Paris proof circa 1900+.
provisional (EP), PT 70mm, and finals proof (the ships).
The ships are the banner of Paris which motto is "fluctuat nec mergitur" "it floats but does not sink", which refers ro the origin of Paris on an island on the Seine river.
Best regards,
WC-

Well I get that, but the stamps fonts are identical all the way from the 1850s to 1900, and the numbers are sequential, which would pretty much rule this out.
It is true that Bernard stamps were imitated by a host of others.
His "brand" was very valuable, and therefore imitated. I also have to believe that the "E. Bernard" maker from Liege was benefiting from the name similarity. I have yet to see an L. Bernard gun. I have only seen barrels.
One also can see that his original stamps were just (LB) and Leopold Bernard. Down the road, the legion of honor stamp showed up (he probably got it) and the "Canonnier a Paris" as well.
Best regards,
WC-

WildCattle, if you wish, I can send some Bernard information I have collected over the years. Knowing that there are several Bernards in the French/Belgian history, some may not interest you. Me email is in my profile if you want some misc. Bernard pictures.

Meanwhile, here's a Bernard, I think from Liege.

i have a belgium sxs sidelocked 16 guage nicely engr. shotgun.
it is belgium proofed but the barrels are marked w. hamacher dusseldorf. the bottom rib is stamped 09700 in front of the forend latch and the serial num. of the gun 6 in. in front of that. any help?

29601.1881

They seem linear with the above then and you give Guyot #30685 : 1882


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

WC:
What are the marks at the breech end of this Heinrich Barella?


Heinrich Barella sidelock flats

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That's a great example of a Bernard wannabe!
He even has the same initials...Put he put them in a heart instead of an oval...
The EP are the provisional proofs. I don't see the final proof-marks on the pic.
Of course, there are German proof marks.
Best regards,
WC-

Not only that, but the font is always the same. A good example of Damascus barrel.
Thank you Raimey!
WC-

Are you sure on the EPs???


Heinrich Barella sidelock flats


Paris proofed double with the next rung of proof effort with tubes by Leopold Bernard from Littlegun's site.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=200357&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ok, so am I to assume we are going to put together a comprehensive list on this thread?

Is the Roblin A Paris you note this one:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Roblin-...un_id=100321635

Looks like a K date?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Barella & Bernard must have been real chummy.


27xxx - 1877 - Interesting lockup?

Somewhere there's Jules Duclos of 47 Rue Richelieu, Paris example with Leopold Bernard tubes from circa 1850.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ferdinand Claudin I believe posted here some time ago

Raimey, I didn't post the picture but I have that gun in my virtual collection. And yes, it's the same gun. I checked it earlier today.

James

Thanks James for the effort. I couldn't really see the number but thought it to be much larger.

Anyone know if these post on the Parker forum have a datecode?

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4153
M. Bernard

Anyone know if any of the early Parkers wear a similar datecode or does the Bernard just refer to the pattern?

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6115

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Re: Parker Bern4 barrels. Parker C grades with Bernard II barrels do NOT carry the LB mark nor date codes, and it is my opinion that the 'rough forged tubes' were sourced from Belgium.
See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CGAF5f-J0-Foww572KvNYb0xSS1nBasWgHYvzD18i3c/edit

That was the intent. It seems to work now!
Yes it is the Roblin that Kirby has. I believe that it is an "H". I'll call him and get the full size pic.
WC-

The Claudin is great!
You can see that the maker was "forced" to put in the finishing date (1846) because Bernard put his date on the barrels at 1845.
The legion of honor stamp is not there yet, nor is the Paris reference.
I was puzzled about the "Ae 1846" until I realized it meant "Annee": year.
Number 4044 is a very early barrel set.

I believe that the brazing of the lumps on the tubes was a very risky endeavor back then, which means that the barrel assembly was worth quite a bit more than two tubes. The other part is that the rib damascus matches the tubes, so that would be hard to do if things were not assembled at the barrel maker's shop.

Another weird one is that all the books say that proofing was indeed mandatory back then, but Bernard (and Claudin) escaped the rule, somehow.

Keeps them coming!

WC-

No I am not sure, but it makes sense. The stamping is pretty bad indeed.
The funny part is that Bernard was hosting the proofing operation in Paris, so that would add insult to injury.
I only see provisional proof, but that's OK if the barrels went to Germany to be assembled on a gun.

All the best,
WC-

Unfortunately, I can't help you with this without any picture.
However, it has nothing to do with Bernard. (not like it matters...)

Best regards,
WC-

Heinrich Barella



It may be an encircled EP, but I can't get my eyes to make it out for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I guess that indeed it is possible.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Re E. Bernard
While digging around the net I found the remnant of an 1865 law suit from L Bernard against the Eastern railroad company.
The law suit alleges that E Bernard was a French tradesman who moved to Liege and started marking guns with "E Bernard canonnier a Paris". The law suit also alleges that Eugene was marking anybody's gun with his name for a fee (2.50 Frs). That would explain why so many of them are around. (I found a whole bunch on naturabuy.fr vs a few real Bernard barelled guns).
Not having jurisdiction on the Belgians, Bernard sued the railroad company that transported them. He lost, but the E Bernard weapons were confiscated and his rights were confirmed.

Best regards,
WC-

Most interesting. He must have had a dandy of a barrister: sue the transportation if you can't sue the manufacture. Can you give us a date on the litigation?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

WC - "You can see that the maker was "forced" to put in the finishing date (1846) because Bernard put his date on the barrels at 1845."

We might have a problem. Leopold was born in 1832, and his father may have died the year of his birth. Not likely he was making barrels of that quality at age 13.

Judgement was rendered on May 2nd 1865. The issue started in Feb 1865.
What mattered to LB was to have his rights reaffirmed. It was more of a warning shot.
The importer testified that they had imported 1000s of EB guns beforehand "without any trouble".
WC-

Quote from "Littlegun"

BERNARD Bertrand Germain Léopold - Manufacturer of barrels of rifles in Paris.

Brother of Albert and son of Nicolas. Is established in 1823 after having worked for Gastinne RENETTE. It manufactured the Damas barrel says Léopold BERNARD for shotgun in 1840. Exposure of Paris in 1839 (MB), 1844 (MA), 1849 (MA), 1855 (MH), 1867 (MA), 1878 (MO Widow L BERNARD), 1889 (manufactures barrels Léopold BERNARD SA 129 avenue of Versailles Paris). It had its factory of barrels with Passy of 1840 to 1855. The same house is found between 1870 and 1879, street of Villejust. Registration of trademarks on January 26, 1863 and 1877. - 22, street Marbeuf - Factory to the 12 then 49, street of Villejust - 129 avenue of Versailles.

Your LB birth date seems wrong. I'll dig for some more data.

Brother Albert was a gunmaker and not a Barrel maker. He was said to have failed because of "poor temper".
I have seen a picture of his trademark on a barrel set, which was very much copied on his brother's (or possibly the reverse).

WC-

Have P Mullin 10 ga M/L With BERNARD LEOPOLD on underside of right BBL
and CANNNONIER PARIS on left BBL. 12377 1859 Pictures too follow soon
reguards
Bill McPhail

My dates were wrong.
Similar to LittleGun
From
http://www.lesgrosbarbares.info/lefaucheux/index.php?file=Sections&op=article&artid=97

In Bernard, the Armory is a family affair.
Nicolas Bernard is gunner and contributor to boys when he returned to function at the Manufacture of Versailles in 1792.In 1813, he left the factory at the same time as Lepage and moved with him to Paris.In 1821, he left Lepage and moved in his own Studio in Paris 22 Rue Marbœuf with his two sons Albert and Leopold.
Albert son of Nicolas works with his brother Léopold in the family workshop.In 1827 he founded his own gunnery workshop but also arquebuserie.Until 1872 it is at 25 Rue Rochechouart.
Leopold, he also gunner will do a stint with Albert Rajendran before returning to the Studio of his father in 1823.Leopold moves, from 1840 to 1855 he manufactures his guns in Passy, found from 1870 to 1879 12 then 49 Rue de Villejust and 129 Av de Versailles in 1889 in Paris.
Filing of trademarks on January 26, 1863 in 1877

Interesting on the 1859 Mullins, McPhail. Is the image in the lot you sent me or do you want me to post it for you?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That's better.
So far I found that by 1878 his "widow" was in control.
Not the case in 1867, so he passed between 1867 and 1878.
An then a corporation "Leopold Bernard SA" that perished some time after 1899, I don't know when exactly.
More to come.
WC-

L Bernard got the Legion of Honor in 1855.
Unfortunately, the file is pretty mute.
His brother did not, but there is more info:


BERNARD
Albert Henri Marie
né le [sans indication], à
Vert-le-Petit (Essonne)demeurant
16, avenue de La Mothe-Piquet, à
Paris
directeur de la Canonnerie de Paris
secteur(s) d’activité
Métallurgie.
date(s) du dossier 1855-1856

He applied in 1855, and was in charge of the Barrel making factory of Paris. Was born in "Vert-le-petit".

Finally, the gold mine.

Germain Leopold Bertrand Bernard
Barrel and gun maker
was born in Versailles on 11/13/1808.
(The November could a bunch of other things such as October.)
Was elevated to the rank of officer of the Legion of Honor on 6/30/1867.
Passed on 7/11/1870.

Finally...

All the best,
WC-

Lovely effort. I've seen a few notes that he was active from 1832 - 1870. Take 1808 + 24 years for a typical age at the end of the apprentice program and he hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1832.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimet
That would be great. Pictures-766 to 771-first 6 pictures of the
Millins
Thanks
Bill

WC, I assume that lawsuit was from 1865 or the early to mid 1860s? So at this juncture we are seeing boxes of tubes departing Liege?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not a very good picture, but one can see the 5 digit code, although there is no date stamped onto the barrels, as is seen on some of the other examples. I have no idea if these are "Bernard" or not. The barrel is off a Guyot.

Those are London proofed tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Correct and not by Bernard.

I found another trove of data about Rieger here.

He was born in Galluis-Laqueue (near Paris, now La Queue-lez- Yvelines) on feb 21st 1841.
Became a knight of the L of H on 12/29/1882 and an officer on 10/20/1911.
Passed on Feb 17 1913.

All the best WC-

I had failed to see until now that the bureaucrat who wrote this in 1911 also wrote the address on the left bottom corner: 37 rue Vivienne.
So Rieger was still there in 1911!

WC-

I forgot to write that Bernard passed on 7/11/1870 at the 12, rue Villejust address. This street is now rue Paul Valery 16eme, Paris.
WC-

WC- could you get a Jones on researching C. Modé as you have L. Bernard?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

McPhail:
Is this the P. Mullin's example?







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey
That's the one-
Thanks for posting
Bill

Ah, found the pertinent thread:

Just to put a Bernard number with a Hannover retailer. I wonder if H. Scherping acquired the Gesteck and had a Suhl maker to complete it. 1877 for the Bernard tubeset but it was on-hand(Vorratszeichen) in a shop in early 1893.




27134.1877



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't think this one is on here. As usual I was looking for something else & stumbled upon it. And it is a stepped lock to boot.




4044 . 1845 - Ferdinand Claudin à Paris

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20c%20d/a%20claudin%20f%20d%20gb.htm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Below is another thread on Ferdinand Claudin à Paris but the Leopold Bernard tubeset number isn't given.

The gun seen above is a 16bore SxS, was done by Ferdinand Claudin of Paris, over 1859-60, with hot-proof Bernard damascus tubes (has his maker's marks and proof numbers), and really nice piece of wood. The darkness shows up all over the gun.







http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148288&page=5

Lepage Freres à Paris pinfire w/ Leopold Bernard tubeset:





7803.1873

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

John Krider - 17388.1864

I haven't really looked, but are their many American gunmaker offerings with Leopold Bernard tubes/tubesets?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey
I know of one P mull and 2 John kider gun
Thanms for posting

Any idea of the datastrings? How's the powerpoles growing this year?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rainey
No more info except these BBLS were the Best on guns made by the
Best-My two are the Best American M/L gun I have ever seen both
in Quality and condition
Have true "Patrick Mullin" M/L converted to B/L by Kirkwood 1895
Has same BBLs as other two guns. BBL flats my obstruct Bernard
markings-Possibly-impeccable Quality
Have Poles-no Market same as Guns
May make an offer on the Schiiling
Thanks
Bill

Thanks to Mr. Hallquist for brining my attention to the following 1869 Leopold Bernard tubeset:


Lefaucheux Breveté - 1872


Lefaucheux Breveté - 1872



22369.1869 - given by retailer

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Mr. Hallquist:

16480.1863 - J. Murat Pinfire
stamped on the barrel lugs 24 over, Pistol over LF, all over 4794
Top Rib- Lefaucheux Inventeur a Paris

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just compiling a few:

12377.1859 - P. Mullin

16480.1863 - J. Murat

17388.1864 - John Krider

19526.1866 - Lefaucheux

20938.1868 - Lefaucheux

22369.1869 - Provided by current retailer

A couple additions:

12377.1859 - P. Mullin

16480.1863 - J. Murat

17388.1864 - John Krider

19526.1866 - Lefaucheux

20938.1868 - Lefaucheux

22369.1869 - Provided by current retailer

22529.1870 - Laurdere

22530.1870 - Laurdere

27268.1877



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, you can ad 5106 of 1848 found on a muzzle loader.

What an absolutely fascinating thread. I have a Sauer & Sohn, Suhl shotgun with what I believe are Leupold Bernard barrels. However, there are NO marks referencing this. My information was obtained in a book in Cabela's gun library in Omaha/Lavista, NE; where I worked until retirement some 5 years ago. The gun was in "rough condition," and has been a project of mine for some years. Friends advised "get rid of the swivels, the gunstock, the cheekpiece, and see if you can get new barrels for it." Happily, I didn't do any of those things.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Mr. Ogle:

More than likely the tubes are BERN or Bernard Pattern and were soured from the mechanics in Liege. Forward me any images & I'll have a gander.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hi Sam,
Congratulations on your project. One has to be commanded to even attempt such a rescue.
It turns out that the overwhelming majority (read all) of US guns with barrels described as "Bernard" were not made by Leopold Bernard. One could order "Bernard" style barrels from the Belgian trade and that's where all those barrels came from. Your Sauer is similar, I am certain.
LB had a touchmark that he used from the 1840s until the end of the company in the early 1900s. Those barrels also had the serial number and date or date code on the lower rib.That is well documented in previous threads. If yours does not have it, by definition it is not a true Bernard.
LB was an ultra-premium barrel maker for most of his carrier including after his death in the 1870s. Barrel sets produced were very few for many decades of production. I think annual production was around 500 per year.
Many barrel makers copied the style of his touch mark including an E. Bernard from Belgium, who produced tons of fake L Bernards.
It does not really matter anyhow. Enjoy your Sauer for what it is!
Kindest regards,
WC-

WC. with the above numbers, I don't see how the 500/year will ring true? Was the 500/year after his death?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337...pspfhqtqk0.jpeg

I believe this to be Mr. Ogle's Sauer?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,
based on my Rieger Lefaucheux built in 1898,
35321/(1898-1832)=535 per year in average over 66 years.
One could plot a curve with the data we have.
That's in the same ball park (but bigger) that Purdey by the way, so ultra-premium is appropriate.
Best regards,
WC-

Fuzzy Calculus there WC. Take the 1860 decade:

12400 in 1859

22400 in 1869

So that's 10k per decade or 1000 per year? You are giving a mean across all LB production time, which isn't a true measure of decade to decade. Probably should truncate it near LB's death then have another set post LB's passing.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Great thread and great information being discussed that could be even better if Photobucket wasn't blocking all of the pictures. There has to be some way people can upload their pictures directly from their computers to this site.

To expensive possibly?

I haven't employed it just yet, but there is a patch, app, etc.:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=492226#Post492226

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

There are Bernards from Belgium and Bernards from France.

Yeah, that LB #5196.1848 is an interesting one w/ the stamps of Armurier or Arquebusier Fleurey à Vesoul.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

With just 2 datapoints for the 1850s decade:

5196.1848 - Arquebusier Fleurey à Vesoul

12377.1859 - P. Mullin

That would approach 700 / year for the 1840s decade.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Again w/ 2 datapoints for the 1840s:


4044 . 1845 - Ferdinand Claudin à Paris

5196 - 1848 - Arquebusier Fleurey à Vesoul

Would yield about 400/year if the numbers are LB.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

3583 - 1843 - DEVISME BREVETÉ À PARIS for King Louis Philippe

4044 . 1845 - Ferdinand Claudin à Paris

5196 - 1848 - Arquebusier Fleurey à Vesoul

6084 - 1850


A few more datapoints but he seems to hold around 400/year in production but could dip into the 300s / year in the 1840s.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

An addition or two:

11868.1858 - difficult to read the oxidized numerals

12377.1859 - P. Mullin

16367.1863 - Charton Fils à Marseille 12 bore

16480.1863 - J. Murat

17388.1864 - John Krider

19526.1866 - Roosevelt cased Lefaucheux à Paris

20374.1867

20938.1868 - Lefaucheux

215?2.1868

22239.1869 - Genez, New York - 8 bore pinfire

22369.1869 - Provided by current retailer

22326.1869 - signé Lefaucheux – Laffiteau

22529.1870 - Laurdere

22530.1870 - Laurdere


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ran across this posting:

"PURDAY, ST JAMES STREET LONDON, DOYE A PARIS .....

LEOPOLD BERNARD / CONONNIER / A PARIS ..26.1861"

I assume Purdey and wish the post had included the two other numbers ??26.1861. Anyone know if Purdey did use tubesets of Léopold Bernard à Paris?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Below is the compiled data available
As you can see, the business grew steadily until the 1860s and never recovered from the Prussian war and the Belgian competition. Probably the death of LB was also involved.
Note: the averages are computed over the last 5 previous samples if available
Best regards,
WC-

Leopold Bernard
# year maker Approx/year

1 1832
3583 1843 Devisme 326
4044 1845 Claudin 311
5196 1848 Fleurey 325
6084 1850 Lepage-Moutier 338
7803 1853 Lepage 422
8184 1854 Perrin 460
11868 1858 667
12377 1859 Mullin 699
16367 1863 Charton 856
16480 1863 Murat 922
17388 1864 Krider 920
19526 1866 Lefaucheux 1021
20374 1867 1002
20938 1868 Lefaucheux 892
22239 1869 Genez 970
22326 1869 Lefaucheux 933
22369 1869 998
22529 1870 Laurdere 796
23177 1870 938
24759 1873 Faure Lepage 608
25605 1874 Faure Lepage 647
27268 1877 677
29601 1881 584
30685 1882 Guyot 658
35237 1898 Roblin 401 H
35321 1898 Rieger 383 H

WC:

Interesting about the external forces of the Prussian War & Belgian emulators(Copy Cats). I for one would like to view #1 of 1832 if you have it?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Re: the "Purday"
Could be a fake or could be a later rebarrel.
I have never ever heard of Purdey not providing their own barrels.
As far as I know they have never had a shop in Paris either.
But of course there is no such thing as a "cononnier".
WC-

Re: the #1 in 1832.
Of course I don't have that (I wish).
I know he started in 1832, so I made a leap of faith that he started at #1. Could be 100 or 1000. 1000 could work as it is pretty linear.
That would reduce the first averages to the 200's.
It is also interesting to see the evolution of makers during that time, BTW. Note the absence of Gastine who might have made their own barrels.
WC-

I thought I had posted this before and I'm pretty sure both Raimey and WD have the number but in reading over this thread I seem to have missed posting.

I have a Leopold Bernard barreled Roblin a Paris sidelock with an LB number 38627 E. The gun appears to date from the first few years of the 20th century but I don't have a firm year. When asked, I say 1900-1905.

oops, duplicate.

Anyone know what datastring is on the lower rib of the Bernard tubeset on Matska Nr. 17 - 1882(on water-table)(MAUKA - F. MACKA) -
30465 - 1882???

Appears a Finnish collector is the custodian of Matska Nr. 17?:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145734&page=1

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Houllier Blanchard
7554.1864



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=616973#Post616973

Crossref....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse