Just picked up the Birmingham side lock pictured below and am confused by the markings. Looks to me like it was proofed first in London with 2 1/2 inch chambers and later in Birmingham at 2 3/4 inches- is that correct? Any way of dating the manufacture of this gun or the date of proof? Was Rowland Watson the maker or the retailer who sold the gun? What is known about the Boulder, Colorado company- was that the importer?
Anything you can tell me about this shotgun will be appreciated and I am looking forward to learning about these beautiful guns. Thanks, Jim
[img][IMG]http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu315/corkdecoy/English%20Shotgun/table_zps7e1eedb1.jpg[/img][/img]

http://bertramandco.com/

Hi CD, welcome to the slippery slope of Brit guns! This won't be your last! Once you get one, you'll have to get more.

First off, the importer is our own Steve Bertram who is a member of this board BTW. His handle is SKB. You can PM him for more info on your gun.

Your gun can be dated several ways, by SN, the proof marks (this is a general guide and not a specific year) and also by a series of letters between crossed "swords". Your gun has been reproofed to 2 3/4", but don't shoot modern American high pressure loads in your gun....not a good thing!!!

The maker Watson, did make and retail his guns (the action is I believe made by W&S). You can google Watson for more info.

There are several good books that will help you understand Brit guns in simple lay terms:

http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guns-Modern-Diggory-Hadoke/dp/160239198X

http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-British-Shotguns-Shooting-Sportsman/dp/0892727748/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z

http://www.safaripress.com/The-British-Boxlock-Gun-Rifle/productinfo/HADOKE98Z/

The above books are excellent!!

Again, congrats on your first Brit Gun, you won't regret it!!

Best!

Greg

Some more info that you may want to look at:

http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/514-2

http://proofmarks.tripod.com/englishproofs.html

http://www.hallowellco.com/proof_date_codes.htm

Hope this helps some.

Best!

Greg

Boothroyd give a good potted history of Rowland Watson and the later amalgamated company of Thomas Wild . IT was said that there had always been a Watson in the Birminham gun trade since first established in buisness in 1723 . The last MR Watson died in 1988. I had the peasure of breifly knowing him in the late 70s . They were at the 17 Whittall St adress 1900/1930 .
I would suspect the gun was at the earlier end of that time give the original black powder proof . gjw belives the action was but W & S but I see no evidence of that. It looks to be a fairly standard trade style action from the photo . Wild/Watson did use some Belgian actions prior to WW1 quite nicely finish in Birmingham but had brazed ribs . I once owned one .

That is a gun I brought in for a client. It handles extremely well and has nice dimensions. It should make a fun shooter, Enjoy!

Proofmarks on this gun are interesting. The original ones are London and look to be from 1887-1904. (After 1904, the shot charge would have been marked.) It then looks as if the gun got a Birmingham reproof--the crossed swords mark, which did not appear until 1921. I can't make out the letter in the left quadrant of that mark, but that would give you a date of the first reproof. The latest reproof is quite recent, because the STD under a crown--which means that the gun is proofed for only standard ammunition, not high pressure (avoid American factory 2 3/4" loads, as indicated above)--only came into use in 2005.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all of the input! These proof marks are not easy for a neophyte to interpret-to say the least! Here is a detail of the crossed swords stamp- does it denote the year of proof as 1897?

Hi CD, no it's not 1897 as COL Brown stated the crossed swords didn't come in until 1921. But, if you can give me the SN I can look it up for you.

Yes your right, Brit proof marks are a bit of a mine field!

Best!

Greg

These proof marks are actually nice and clear.
The top line on the RH barrel is the modern Birmingham set, the line closest to the lumps is the earlier original, black powder London set, used from 1887 to 1925 (nothing much changed for London BP proof until the chamber length mark was added).
What is confusing is that the Birmingham Reproof mark and its date stamp have been added to the original London proof line rather than immediately after the Birmingham proof line. The reason probably being that the was not quite enough room for the date stamp and the Reproof stamp always seems to be at placed at the muzzle end of the flats.
The crossed swords give the date of the MOST RECENT proof: 1997.

had the idea that STD under a Crown came in to use 2005 or 2006 onwards ?

Could you post a picture of the action and lockplates please.
It would be interesting to see then.
Thanks

300846
You are totally correct. They came in with the 2005 new rules of proof which did not take effect until 2006.
Looking closely at the larger magnification of the date stamp, I think the tail on the '9' is in fact a scratch and so the proof date is 2007.
Thank you for pointing this out, us old guys should wear our glasses more!

Funny, I thought ZC was the 1997 Birmingham date code.

Toby, according to the information I have, Birmingham went to a different date code mark, having dropped the crossed swords mark in 1941 and replacing it with a circle divided into three, year letter on the left, starting in 1950. That was replaced with an undivided circle beginning in 1974. I've seen the 3-part circle date code but not the undivided circle. Have they now dropped the circle and returned to the old crossed swords mark, but with year numbers rather than a letter code? I have a partial list of the new proofmarks (including STD over a crown) that first appeared in 2005, but the Birmingham date code mark isn't shown. Thanks.

Here are some more pictures- there is no serial number that I can find. Jim

Looking at these pictures the gun is what the Birmingham trade referd to as a"Roger". That is it has used Rogers patent coil spring locks .Quite posible the gun was built by John Rogers for Watson [The gun I refered to earlier that I had owned was boxlock ] This has better wood than most of the examples I have seen as well as tips and toes and a Deeley catch forend making it above average for a gun of its type .

L.Brown
Yes, according to Nigel Brown (and this agrees with examples I have seen) Birmingham returned to the cross swords in 1985 and under the new rules in 2005 (actually 2006) they introduced the actual year date at 9pm and 3pm.

Thanks, Toby. I haven't seen one with the new crossed swords format, but given the fact that they're not making many new Brummie guns these days, it'd much more likely be a recent reproof--like this one.

Why is there no serial number? I looked inside the right lock plate, barrel, fore end iron- no number. Is that unusual?

Gunman,do you have any idea as to the purpose of the screws next to the hinge pin? I can't remember seeing screws there before on any sxs.

It will be the lifter or cocking limb axel . On a normal side lock this would be under the lock plate ,but with the shorter bar on the lock it is exposed . Many guns off similar type be they coil spring or V spring locks , have them but not with such a large head.

The locks on this gun are exactly the same as the locks on my Lyon and Lyon 12 gauge side by side, right down to the screws just before the hinge pin (posted on an earlier thread).



It, however, never had coil springs. being very much a "V" spring back action lock! And yes the screws are the axles for cocking limbs!

Here is a link to the original post:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=292211#Post292211

My Lyon & Lyon comes also with a "greener" cross bolt.

For what its worth (more for me than the original poster I suspect - referring to the whole thread)

All the best

Skeeterbd

Too bad about the nasty looking branding.

Gee I'm sorry j0e,federal law requires the importer's mark and I would like to keep my importer's license. How do you go about it in your shop? Please share your deep personal knowledge with the rest of us.

SKB, I didn´t know you had to do that. Does is apply to all guns shipped into the USA ? i.e. if you imported a second hand Holland from say 1990 or new would you have to stamp the details on the barrels ?, best, Mike

At least Steve has the good sense to mark it so it's unseen. I've seen some that are stamped on the bbls side.....looks crappy!

Best!

Greg

Yes, it is required on all imports. I do my best to put it where it is the least objectionable.

Required under the 68 Gun Control Act, I believe.

I took this gun to my local, London trained gunsmith(I have been informed that there are three in my neighborhood) for a strip/clean, some minor repairs and to get a professional opinion. Here is what I learned:
1.Gun was made 1898 or before
2.Re-proof of 2 3/4 inch chamber was done in 2007
3.Gun is tight and on face- safe to shoot and recommends RST or other light 1 oz loads
4.Chokes are improved cylinder/extra full
5.Left barrel wall is thin and prone to denting
6.Back-action sidelocks with leaf springs
7.Knuckle pin is a replacement
Work being done on the gun is to make a new cocking lever pin, raise two small barrel dents, raise dents in stock, re-work/dress up various screws, clean and lube!