I raised a question about "Rain Guns" a few months ago and I thank everyones response. I don't think it was a controversial subject but an interesting subject all the same. Now , let's talk about something that may be somewhat controversial (although I don't feel that way). How many of you have actually been pigeon shooting out of a box? I hear the sport is actually still practiced but kept quiet I have no problem with it particularly if you or someone else is eating the birds. From what I understand , the sport is demanding and difficult. I also know that the term "pigeon grade" originated from this sport. I would like to hear responses.

Yes I have competed at the rings but don't do that any more. It is a cruel activity, let's not try to call it a sport. Terrified birds are kept in cages and often some feathers are pulled, birds tortured, to make them fly erratically. I have NEVER been to a shoot where the birds were gathered up to be eaten. It is not fair chase by any stretch of the imagination. Those who call pigeons, rats with wings, are trying to rationalize a cruel activity. Those who claim they like the challenge of live birds have a good alternate with zz birds. You'll sleep better boys !

Nitro Express
An interesting response. I read an article regarding pigeon shooting a couple of years ago. The article discussed the rules, regulations, as well as the difficulty. The reason I am bringing the subject to light is that I would like to educate myself regarding the history of the " sport" or competition . Thank you for your reply, it seems you are certainly aware of the negative aspects of the subject. That being said, I still would like to know if the pigeon grade shotgun is actually derived from the above mentioned subject.

Yes

https://docs.google.com/document/preview?id=1I_5GfGqfidbrfhpwzMvsccjDxjCd39M6nERp99wVEBQ

https://docs.google.com/document/preview?id=1rtqfXbMHv08c0iojRUFUV5kR7jIc-7jdinPZEmI9WSc

Smith Pigeon Gun introduced in 1893



Parker AAH Pigeon Gun introduced in 1894

I have shot both box and hand thrown birds. Both are tough games that require the most of the shooter and his gun. The other requirement is big bucks and the willingness to loose them. Pidgens, ducks, quail, and even Bambi are just animals. I can't say that I give a darn if the best thing that happens to a pidgen is he is hit jolt from an automotive coil and launched into the air with a strong spring. Lets worry about people and not a dumb animal.

Bill

I'd like to try it if it works out. Years ago when I had the chance, I got cold feet at the buy in price. I've shot a bunch of birds for dog training, predators, varmints and pests with never the slightest intention of eating the game. Not for everyone, but very reasonable sport for some, with no regret.

In response to Nitro Express's post:

As an adult I've been to a few pigeon shoots & as a small child I have accompanied my grandfather when he took the old non productive laying hens from his farm to the Campbell's Soup Factory to meet their demise.

Trust me when I tell you that in my opinion the pigeons at a shoot have a much better & less stressful ending.

No animal deserves an electric shock after being terrorized, for someone's so called sport. The time for live bird shooting is long past. Dumb? Huh? By the way the spelling is pigeon not pidgen.

Bill, your attitude is exactly why legitimate hunting is under so much pressure today. Animals are not inanimate objects to be tortured for people's amusement. Cruelty to animals is a small step away from cruelty to people, and equally repugnant. Shame on you.

NE: Let me just say this; I own 9 Barnabee traps and have a pigeon ring. Used to be into the sport. And yes, the traps do give the birds a shock and as a result of the shock, they really get out of Dodge and have a better chance of survival as a result. Birds that don't get shocked really don't fly very well and are an easy target. In terms of the shock, I really don't think it is much worse than what a dog receives from an electric collar, a bark collar or an invisible fence. IMO most people don't believe these dog tools are that inhumane.

It is curious that killing preserve birds is acceptable to most of us while pigeon shooting may not be. In all cases it is killing with a gun, some clean kills, many not so clean.

I cannot say one is ethically superior to the other. I understand that the pigeons are partially plucked live and boxed and I cannot defend the pain of the plucking.

That said in the end killing is killing, no matter how it is romanticized or idealized.

I have not engaged in pigeon shooting, nor does it interest me, but I cannot condemn it without feeling like a hypocrite

Distortion, emotion and exaggeration is why all shooting sports are under pressure today.

I have no problem killing an animal in fair chase and-or when the meat is utilized by the shooter, shopper or SOMEONE. But I do have a problem caging the pigeons, terrorizing and torturing them, launching them from dark boxes where they are disoriented, killing some, wounding others that are never followed up to put out of their misery, and after all that discarding the carcasses. I'm sorry to say I have done live bird shoots in the past, but never again. No distortion or exaggeration, I've seen it. Wise up guys, this is a cruel activity.

Hi all,
in about 1974 as a young(ish) shooting man, at that time particularly into clay pigeon (trap) shooting, I was invited by a colleague, a very nice young lady of portuguese ancestry, to visit Portugal with her for a holiday.
As she new that I was shooting at (clay) birds, she had arranged through her family (apparently one of her uncles, rather highly placed in the Portuguese Government of the time, if I remember correctly, to accommodate 'my good friend' in arranging a temporary membership of the local Lisbon shooting club).
I duly arrived at a beautifullly arranged country club (what I later learned to be about CA standard) and was invited to participate in the 'competition' which happened on that day and which I thought was a 'Clay Pigeon' - probably Trap competition - but in fact happened to be THE 'live pigeon' National Competition.
My Browning B25 B2 (what you call 'Superposed' I believe) did me proud on that day!
This was a 'trap' shoot - with live pigeons flying out of traps arranged as in a trap clay pigeon shoot.

Although I was surprised by the 'live' birds, I managed to perform not too badly - if I remember correctly, I ended up coming 3rd (perhaps second - cannot remember now).

Anyway, the birds were given to local families and cooked for dinner!
In my opinion no difference to 'walked up' pigeons or other game.

Regards from England
Günter
NRA Life 1974

There is nothing like it! The sport of Kings!

I have two acquaintances who put themselves through college trapping pigeons for the box bird and columbaire rings....the towns and communities they trapped birds in were grateful to see them gone and they were grateful to get a college education. Another school mate paid his way through college selling illegal home rolled cigarettes......I have more respect for the pigeon trappers. But; that's off the main topic....they didn't call the guns "pigeon guns" or "pigeon grade" because they were used to shoot doves.

Animal shot and eaten, OK.
Animal shot and left to rot just for sport, not OK.
CHAZ

We shoot live pigeon down here from boxes, they don´t get shocked though, they use a compressed air system to get them going from the off, I enjoy it but Helis (as they call them in Spain or ZZ in UK) is just as much fun IMO though if you ever visit London and see the state of the monuments, statues etc covered in pigeon sh*t you wouldn´t be bothered how many you sent to the hereafter ! best, Mike

I shoot box birds occasionally. I cannot afford, nor can I justify, spending as much of my income as would be necessary to do so regularly. Lots of travel in regularly shooting flyers in the South. Some of my friends regularly drive to Texas for shoots, from Georgia.

As to the ethics involved, I cannot agree with Nitro E. He assigns emotions to an animal (terror). This is inconsistent with what I believe an animal to be capable of feeling. Pain, yes, though not the same as humans because there is no emotion, again. Anyway, the alternative to controlling pigeons, where they are trapped, is poison laced grain. Does Nitro think the carcasses of poisoned pigeons are consumed? No difference in a dead pigeon from poison or from a load of 7 1/2s. EXCEPT, the pigeon used in a ring has a darn sight better chance of surviving it than the poison.

SRH

Since he is assigning human emotions to an animal would he rather have it die a slow death from poison or a quick one from those 7-1/2's? When I raised hogs years ago my vet told me they carried disease to pigs so I shot the nasty things. One old man and his wife took them home to eat.

I've heard it all before and here it is again; smaller animals have no emotions [there is a cutoff between humans and smaller animals], the live bird shooters are controlling pigeon population so the rest of us may live in a healthy environment, sport of kings [let them eat cake, superiority mentality]. At least the turn of the century pigeon shoots had people eating the dead pigeons, nowadays that doesn't happen at least in the US. I'll say one last time, been there, saw how it works, asked questions, don't do that any more. I hope I convince at least some of the readers who haven't been to a pigeon shoot, or those who haven't risen yet to the highest code of hunter ethics [fair chase], make no mistake - this is a cruel activity.

Do you think it mentally effects everyone that does it ?

I hear tell that's where PETA came from.

NE
I believe that this type (pigeon trap) shooting was popular at one time in our history. I was more interested in the development of shotguns in relation to this type of activity , ie longer barrels. There are still shotgun builders using the term " pigeon" in their descriptions. As far as morals, ethics, cruelty , etc that is a tough subject. I am a 61 year old hunter. I have hunted since the age if 12. I was taught how to hunt safely and with ethics at a very early age. If I look at our hunting past, waterfowl market hunting, hunting birds only for their feathers , 8 gauge shotguns. These are all black marks against our hunting history. I was truly unaware of the "ejection" methods used in pigeon trap shooting. Again, I thought the activity was interesting to me as it related to shotguns.

If I could afford to do it every week I'd go...

After I shot I'd run in and bite the heads off the pigeons just for PETA.

I shoot box birds. I don't have anything against those who don't. Wish they felt the same about me.

Pigeon shooting competition is a blood sport. If we must justify it with consumption of the carcass, how do we justify catch and release sport fishing? Why terrorize, possibly kill, or otherwise inconvenience the fish if we do not justify it by consuming it? And how does consuming the flesh of the fish or pigeon or duck or pheasant or bobwhite quail make it ethically acceptable to kill in the 1st place when we could all just be vegans?

This is a silly conversation...Geo

No box birds for me. Had the opportunity, but passed. A few years ago a farmer we knew asked a couple of us to go shoot a bunch of barn pigeons that were getting into his grain. It was a real hoot, but all those pigeons wound up in chili or burritos. Other than varmints, predators and rattlesnakes, we cook it all.

All have their place in history and not black marks at all to me. Two things I just don't understand. Gotta eat it. I'll eat just about anything at least once, but I'd seriously question if anyone here needs the meat. I also can't figure out why it's 'fair' to a wild bird to get pointed by a dog, flushed and shot.

For me, the right and ability to hunt, fair chase or otherwise, is a want not a need. I suspect folks get a bit callous on these things because it's tiring to be told constantly how to feel.

Whether the pigeons are eaten or not is s small issue compared to ripping out their flight feathers. That is wanton cruelty.

Well to answer the original question. Yes, it's still going on and in most cases you have to be invited. And they don’t eat the birds.

I agree with George.......especially the last sentence......

I wonder if plants scream when you pull the plant out by the roots........?........

Most pigeons that are shot in the ring have no feathers removed from them. Where I shoot box birds I can assure you they are not. Those that escape the ring, and there are many, most often fly around the area, back and forth over the ring, and anyone can see that their's is a natural and undisturbed flight. Not exactly the expected actions of an animal that has just been "terrorized and tortured".

Plucking a very few feathers from a pigeon is most often done by columbaires who throw the hand-thrown birds. These are a very small percentage of total pigeons shot in the ring. The idea is NOT that plucking a selected feather or two makes the bird more likely to be killed. Quite the opposite. Trained columbaires know exactly which feather or two will cause the bird's first few yards of flight to be very erratic and unpredictable, greatly increasing it's chances of survival.

SRH

I know guys that shoot pigeons and have had the chance to go, but I really can't afford it. I would love to try it and maybe someday I will. I don't see any difference from shooting barn pigeons. The guys I know don't seem cruel to me.

My friend Stan is right on. Box birds do not suffer from plucking. However, a Columbaire may pull a few feathers from his bird to cause erratic flight. The feathers I have seen Columbaires pull from a pigeon would not cause much if any pain. In my opinion, it is more for the mental effect on the shooter than it is for the flight of the bird. My Dad used to tell me about "handling" birds at my Grandfather's ring, but I dismissed it as just "folk talk". My Dad's birds were homing pigeons and I doubt that they handled them much at all. After all, they had to use them again if they were missed. Murphy

The last pigeon I shot with a shotgun was over 20 years ago in my neighbor's yard. I gave him a 50 yard head start then I blasted the feathered rodent with Dad's 10 bore. PETA can't say that I didn't give him a flying chance.

Never shot pigeons in a ring, but always wanted too; just never had the chance. If I'd had the chance, I certainly wouldn't have any remorse over any birds I might kill in the process any more than I would feel for the crows I've shot and left laying for the worms and other opportunistic critters that gotta eat too. Nothing in nature is wasted; those carcasses will be used and consumed by something/s in some manner as it is returned to its basic elements. The only pigeons I've ever shot were those working a dove field; and when shot, those pigeon brests were simply included with the accumulated dove breasts (look and taste the same; just larger). That said, I haven't shot a pigeon in many years because I did feel VERY guilty about the last pigeon I killed. Seems in was a banded bird that belonged to some unknown pigeon racer. Don't know why the onwer let the bird out during dove season; but I've always been afraid that the bird I killed might have been worth a lot more than the gun I shot it with?

I have done it.

Killed the first five first barrel and thought; 'This is pretty easy'.

By the end of the afternoon I knew better.

You need tight chokes to kill going away birds and stop them dead before they cross the fence. Open chokes kill but not inside the fence. 1/2 and 3/4 or 3/4 and Full seem to be best. Too tight and you risk missing birds which cross or fly at you, closing range as they do.

First let me say I don't live pigeon shoot nor have I ever had the chance. Don't know enough about it to have a judgement about cruelty, one way or other.

While we (science) don't know if animals feel the same kind of emotions (terror) humans do, the last 100 years has been the history of disproving previously held beliefs that "dumb animals" are dumb.

Currently the only animal yet recorded, besides a human, of being able to plan three distinct, separate and consecutive uses of a tool to achieve one particular outcome is a bird, a crow in fact. Crows teach their young about dangers in the world (i.e specific humans) that have not ever harmed the young and a year later, with no contact with the human, the young remember. Crows are now being considered as perhaps the most intelligent animal besides humans. And the studies clearly suggest they have emotions of some sort.

Not that long ago it was said no animal feels pain. Kick a dog and tell me that's true.

Currently we are wrestling with whether animals feel emotions. Please, someone here with a dog tell me their dog feels neither joy nor shame. I've seen both from all of mine.

I'm all for the blood sport of hunting but I'm also for science and accurate knowledge, not misinformation to suit my case.

I can't attest to the accuracy of the following but many years ago, at some point during my educational career, spent entirely in church run ( Roman Catholic and then Anglican) schools, that at some point in the middle ages, the Pope needed to address exactly how big Heaven was and how it could hold all the dead creatures that had ever lived. His solution was to deny that animals felt pain or had emotion, thus rendering them soulless and Heaven, much less crowded.

Hunted and fished for over 50 years and now I do neither and do not kill anything that isn't bothering me to include insects and spiders in my house. I still like to eat fish and chicken but am cutting back on that too.For me seeing up close how precious life is and how easily lost makes it nearly impossible to take it. I do not have a problem for those who are ethically taking game and fish.The death of my son in 1986 and that of a little girl who died in my arms in a traffic accident in 2001 pushed me over the edge.

For canvasback

St. John Lucas
The curate thinks you have no soul; I know that he has none. But you,
Dear friend, whose solemn self-control, In our foursquare familiar pew,
Was pattern to my youth-whose bark called me in summer dawns to rove-
Have you gone down into the dark where none is welcome-none may love?
I will not think those good brown eyes have spent their life of truth so soon;
But in some canine paradise your wraith, I know, rebukes the moon,
And quarters every plain and hill, seeking his master...As for me,
This prayer at least the gods fulfill: That when I pass the flood and see
Old Charon by the Stygian coast take toll of all the shades who land,
Your little, faithful, barking ghost may leap to lick my phantom hand.

More on dogs in heaven
http://www.picturetrail.com/members/community/homePage/blogPage.php?uid=6511424&entryID=23339

I've known life-long hunters, men I've respected, who for various reasons decided they had enough killing in their lives and gave it up. I haven't reached that point in my life, but I understand that there are those that do, and that's okay by me. On the otherhand, I knew a man who killed a turkey when he was 97 and died at 98. We should all die so young and enthusiastic.

Until this thread came along, I haven't thought about Fonda and Joe for years. Joe was a confirmed batchelor who lived with a female African Grey Parrot for years. The bird was quite a character with matching vocabulary. Fonda and Joe got married and the parrot was not a happy bird. Things rocked along for several years and they had their first child. When Fonda came home from the hospital with the baby boy, the proud parents doted over the new arrival. After several days, the bird flew off its post, perched on the edge of the bassinet and promptly bit the infant on the nose. The nose didn't look like a peanut and everyone rightfully believed it was pure avian jealousy that caused the bird to bite her rival for Joe's affection.

I can't find reference right now but for those with Christian beliefs one of the recent Popes said that animals have souls and will be with us in the afterlife. I have definitely seen emotions of pride, jealousy, shame shown by my canines and by a ferret. Some here would have us believe there's a threshold below that for animals they consider dumb & lesser. First pigeon shoot I went to in the 1970's was at a small sportsmens club with simple equipment, and older local people of european descent gathered up all the dead birds and were hunting down the wounded ones, all for food. In fact the shoot kept stopping because men and women were in the shot fall area chasing after the wounded ones. Things deteriorated since then with most of the shoots now held for those who could care less how the birds are treated, what happened to the meat and what happens to the wounded birds that fly past the fence. I stopped doing pigeon races when I went to one and saw where the operators tied 'rigs' for lack of a better word on the necks of the pigeons. Rig had a dangling mirrored gizmo that keeps the pigeon terrorized that a predator is approaching from different directions. Erratic flight might make it easier for the 'sport' to miss but who takes the rigs off the birds when they fly off and try to live with it after crossing the fence? These pigeon shoots, modern P.C. type word 'Races', may have been a sport a long time ago when the birds were harvested for food and shooting wasn't enhanced with electric shocks, air blasts and gizmos, but imho not today. I hope readers learn here what really goes on there. CB

I'm beginning to think I'll have to cut down on hunting in the future. I have a freezer full of ducks, pig, venison and elk and the doc wants me to eat less of that stuff. When I can't eat it, I won't feel right about shooting it. Pheasant and quail will probably be OK because they are white meat, but those birds are awfully scarce around here.

These pigeons are trapped, not raised for slaughter. At least in the USA, that's how it is. Perhaps there are those of you who believe that when cities poison them, ( and they do) it is more humane. I happen to not think that.
HighWall
Pigeon shooter

I also have mousetraps, and i swat Mosquitos

Knowing what little I know about the races I would say that most of these guys have too much “invested” to give a rat’s a$$ about what anyone thinks of them or their sport.

Cost wise, I've never been able to justify shooting food over heading to the grocery store. I've also noticed that most any bird I've shot at has been hightailing it in the other direction, so I figure their instincts if nothing else tells them to be somewhere else.

I don't think I could ever give up hunting because of someone else's feelings. I don't mind getting skunked, it's a good thing just to be out there. The surroundings, sometimes the company and the excitement aren't easy to substitute on the golf course, at a bar or in front of a tv.

I think it's hypocritical to enjoy thick juicy steak or a healthy baked chicken breast and worry about treatment of pigeons. The second before it's lights out, I don't think any of them knew or cared if they would be eaten or not.

You got that right Treb! I think the original poster's intent was to have a discussion about Flyers......and NOT about the anti aspect. Small Bore tried to get us on the right track with his post. I used to participate a lot, trying different shells, chokes and guns. Pretty much settled on a 32 inch Perazzi Mirage choked Full and Fuller. Mine almost shot like a rifle and that's what I wanted because if I hit the bird I wanted it to die. Some guys liked more open choke for the first shot....I did better with a tighter choked gun especially when back at 35 yards. In terms of shells, I preferred 1 1/4 oz and 3 1/4 dram to the 3 3/4 dram load....recoil would get to me. Sometimes I shot a release/pull trigger.....extremely fast trigger for a guy skilled with one. In terms of guns, most guys use O/U configuration, but you see some automatics and SxS's too. I once saw a man win over $100,000 shooting a Model 21 Winchester. He clearly knew how to operate that old gun! Flyer shooting is the Super Bowl of shotgun sports IMHO and I really miss playing the game (got away from it due to time constraints plus I'm not the shot I used to be as a younger man).

I like a 30" Mx8, or my 29.5" Comp1. Chokes either .025/.035, or .030/.040. Shoot about equal 3.25 vs 3.75dr loads. Largest shot allowed. Straight 7s when I can. They DO kill better.

I really enjoy pigeon shooting! I have a perazzi 30" MX2L that works just great. To me the real world series in this game is the hand thrown one! A good colimbare is the real deal. Then its you against the other man. The bird is just an active part. For this I use a 28" Bertuzzi hammer gun and for me it does just that hammers the bird without hammering me.
The shells I have used with the best results are 8's then 7 1/2 both copper plated. I have used 9's on the first shot on box birds with dramatic sucsess.
I took my grandson for his first look at one of these shoots when he was 11. It was a practice session and there were only about twelve older gentlemen there all of whom were old friends. All he had for a gun to shoot was a 26" SKB 28ga over an under with #8 shot this was not going to go well but at least he could get the feel was the consesus of the group. Sure enough the first bird out of the box had a nice safe flight home. The next two were killed, but were out of the ring. He was being to careful. So with the words shoot them in the eye as soon as you see them coming out of the box ringing in his ear, He did just that! I mean those birds were toast and never got further than 6 feet from the box. Needless to say the other gentlemen were drop jawed but we all agreed on one thing its not the arrow its the Indian. Youth, eyes and reflex do the trick
My last word is for the naysayer sounds like to me you couldnt hit them in the eye.
Regards
John Mc

Buzz, the closest I ever got to the races was back in the seventies at Hegins, PA. An old timer told me when I asked about the "$", he said "Son, you’re watching guys shoot that have ice water cruising through their veins.”

John Mc, neat story about the 11 year old. I was 15 when my Dad took me to a shoot at Drifton, PA, outside of Hazleton. In that area, one shot, low gun shoots were still prevalent, and probably are today. It was the first shoot I had entered. My gun of choice was my 26" 16 gauge W&C Scott, bored full and full. It was not exactly the gun of the day. However, in the first race of my life, I killed seven of ten and was pretty happy, even though I was a bird or two out of the money. Shoot birds were a dollar and juniors didn't have to play the money. I really enjoy the old one shot shoots, but I think they pretty much ended south of Hazleton when the Labor Day Shoot at Hegins ended.

I also prefer a MX-8, 31 1/2" bbls. 7 1/2 shot. Like Smallbore I killed the first five straight I ever shot at. My technique is to basically "waste" the first shot, shooting the first barrel as fast as I can after picking up the the bird. Even if I do miss him with that shot my second shot has a better chance of killing him inside the fence.

Background and wind are huge in flyer shooting.

After killing that first straight I walked back by the other shooters and one older guy said to me "Son, this may just be the worst thing that ever happened to you ". He may have been right.

SRH

My dad and I used to hunt pigeons feeding on grain along railroad tracks on the Columbia River when I was a kid. It is/was great year round sport, and they were great eating too, as one might imagine. I generally try not to shoot anything I don't intend to eat, although I've shot lots of smelly pen raised field trial quail, many of which I didn't feel were fit to eat.

We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth.
Henry Beston - from The Outermost House

I wish I could post this anonymously, because I don't want to take a side, but I can't post without giving up my identity. When we examine these wonderful birds in Audubon or under a glass after we kill them, they are beautiful and obviously a gift from God beyond compare. However, some day, as we do, they die. How they die is not pleasant, regardless of how it happens. In nature, these wonderful birds die horrible deaths, as they do at flyer shoots. It's the same at slaughter facilities or anywhere else. Almost any form of death is probably preferred by the pigeon to poison in an urban atmosphere, where many flyer shoot victims would die if they had not been trapped. I will continue to attend the occasional flyer shoot when I feel I can perform well.

Well said, Eightbore.

I can see where my posting the Henry Beston quote could lead to a misunderstanding. I have no objection to pigeon shooting. My post was in reply to Stan's post, specifically the part about animals having no emotions. I respectfully disagree.
I can understand Eightbore's reluctance to take a side. If you do, it can really draw some intemperate responses on this site. The theory of Narcissism of Small Differences may explain why.

I understand the theory of Narcissism of Small Differences. I won't explain why that theory doesn't apply here, but I will continue to explain that the end of a pigeon's life in nature is usually more violent and full of suffering than the end of its life in the ring. That's where I stand on the subject. I don't think game birds normally die of old age in sleep.

Mark Twain said "Man is the lowest form of life on earth". He may have been correct. Most assuredly in a lot of respects. This is not a condemnation of pigeon shooting from me in any way. I have not had the opportunity to try it but certainly would if given the chance or if I had the $$$.

I don't think the theory applies to our exchange. I was alluding to some of the intemperate posts I have seen here when someone stakes out a position. I never said gamebirds die of old age in their sleep. I also explained that I have no objection to pigeon shooting.

I am disappointed that the poster Beagle deleted the reference to the the "narcissism of small differences" which I disagreed with. I stand corrected. I have found his post, which he did not delete.

I assure you I have not deleted anything. Check pg. 6, 2nt from the bottom.

Neither Henry Beston nor Mark twain, great writers though both may be, ever wrote any wordage that I can place above the Highest Authority in my life, that of the Word of God. And in that Word, in the book of Genesis, concerning the account of creation, after God created all other beings, including the birds, He created man on the sixth day. In verse 28 it is recorded that God blessed man, told them to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

This reference is not intended by me to show that by man's dominion over other living beings he has the right to abuse them. I certainly do not believe or ascribe to that. Some may feel my shooting of pigeons occasionally shows that I do. I disagree.
I referenced the creation account in Genesis to show that, regardless of what Beston believed, they ARE our underlings, as commanded by the Creator. And, regardless of what Twain thought, man is NOT the lowest form of life on the earth, but the HIGHEST, again, as the Creator spoke, and was created in the image of God himself.

Believe Beston if you will, believe Twain if you prefer. I choose to believe the infallible Scriptures.

With this post I respectfully withdraw from this discussion, because, as Daddy used to say, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

All my best, SRH

Thank you for Drew Hause for the St John poem. I have always loved it.

I had not thought this topic would provoke such discussion.

I think none bad for wanting or not wanting to shoot live pigeons.

I see little difference between pigeons shot in this way, quail I shoot either wild or preserve, and chickens in the grocery.

Let talk about something less controversial.

How about them 'lectric collars?

Sorry, Beagle, I found your post that I mistakenly though you had deleted. I,also, am out of here. Got to polish some pigeon guns. Don't shoot many flyers, but still pay dues annually to my pigeon club and to the Pennsylvania Flyers Association. It's a nostalgia thing.

Speaking of animal rights the local humane society has some coon hound puppies up for adoption. If I adopt one and take it coon hunting will they repossess it? Should I send them trophy pictures of our coons? I can have all kinds of fun with that. Had a discussion with my long suffering wife about adopting a free coon puppy and found out that my seventh hunting dog would cost me about half our net worth.

We already have six bird dogs living in the house, I don't think we would even notice an added coon hound puppy.

Laughed out loud!