https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2392&aid=58151&lid=14748165#

I like this configuration. What do you estimate it's worth?

Sellers would call it something over $20K. Buyers are stingy these days. I'd expect to settle for about $15,000. if I wanted to move it fairly quickly. Thats my wild guess.

This is not a factory Grand American or 21-6/inlay so value is determined when money changes hands. Original Winchester Grand American's have become very pricey. I know nothing about the engraver. As you can see, it didn't sell. these non factory upgrades are hard to sell and if the original owner, you never get your money out of them except for possibly Churchill engraving.
So it all depends on what you think as to the quality of the work if you want to acquire and shoot. As an investment, it's not.
I wouldn't purchase until I had it in my hands and probably would not purchase at all but that's just me.-Dick
BTW, there are two SN's listed, 817 and 22241, I don't know what the 817 number is, maybe a match number for the set but it's not a Winchester number, the 22241 is a more reasonable number. At this price point you may as well have a Cody letter to determine how the gun started out in life. 32" Model 21's are nice though, I have had two, a Duck and a Live Pigeon gun.

As a shooter that would be perfect. Plus the "added" value that it has decreased in price because someone tried to upgrade it into something it is not.

It is a standard upgrade personal project gun. Judge it by the quality of work. It is not a factory original and can not be valued like one. If a buyer wanted a factory high grade gun he has to be willing to pay the price. Only a seller expects a buyer to pay the same money for a upgraded gun.

If you cam across a "upgraded" painting of Mona Lisa done by someone who wanted the Mona Lisa but could not buy the original would you pay the same money for the upgrade? No, even if it was a perfect copy. Same thing for upgraded guns that mimic a high grade or rare gun. Looks the same is not the same and the money should not be there.

We kind of know what the original configuration was. It is a scarce to rare Deluxe Trap. It is engraved by a popular American engraver of the mid 20th century, not an ugly gun. The checkering pattern includes (wisely) asymetrical fleur de lis of average quality. Any attempt to make fleur de lis symetrical is usually a disaster unless the craftsman is very talented. I think this is a pretty nice effort, well worth what an original Deluxe Trap in high condition would be worth, $8000 or more. This gun could be worth as much as $12000 if it passes the up close tests. I would like to own it and would pay a reasonable price for it.

Post pics and ask your question on the Winchester 21 collectors website:
www.model21shotgun.com
It is definitely not factory work but looks very good. As such, it is a shooter that will attract a lot of attention at any shoot but cannot command "collector price". I have had original and aftermarket upgraded 21's and just enjoyed the hell out of shooting all of them. Many 21's have been upgraded and attempted to pass off as original. I see one or two a year that are factory fakes. For comparison here is a certified factory original 1949 21 duck with 30" 3" M&F barrels and extra 26" IC&M barrels that was upgraded by the Winchester custom shop in 1980 with no. 6 engraving by Pauline Muerrle and B checkering by John Durkin. The estate lawyers who had this gun for sale said it was Japanese engraving. Research proved otherwise. As there were around 32-33,000 21's produced in all grades and gauges throughout it's history, the number of aftermarket upgrades make the originals that much more valuable to me. Nevertheless, if you buy it rest assured you have one of the finest American double guns ever made.

No Gary, THE FINEST!!!

My only consideration for the gun was to use it as a sporting clays shooter. It's a moot point now as I didn't realize there was a minimum bid. (which I don't think was disclosed prior to the auction.) I thought it would go at a somewhat reasonable price due to being non factory up grade. Fooled again.

I'm no expert, but actually, grade for grade, the A.H. Fox is the better American gun.

JMHO.

And this old Fox(y) agrees 100%. The Model 21 possibly started our in 1931 (or, 1941 if you read Steve Bodio's book on shotguns closely) as a utility grade boxlock double gun, retailing at I believe, $59.95 for the double triggered and manual extractors field gun. Design began back around 1925-1926 at WRA-- interesting to me, as an amateur metallurgist-same time frame when WRA offered their FUBARed stainless steel barrels- (A good friend and fellow WRA buff has a M12 Trap gun and a M54 in .257R, both with stainless steel barrels- when that fiasco ended in about 1930, WRA went to Winchester Proof Steel (AISI 4140)and dropped the Nickel steel alloy for their barrels, receivers, etc--

So, thanks to John Olin's love of the side-by-side gun (see Houchin's book on LC Smith shotguns, you will see pictures of his 12 Specialty grade with extra barrel set- AE and HOT- cased)--and the then new WPS, he allegedly pushed for production of this "work-horse" double, as Parker, AH Fox, Ithaca and LC Smith were seeing their retail sales plummet as a result of the Great Depression.

I think, and this is just my guess, that had it NOT been for the Winchester Custom shop and their made-to-order options to the buyers with "deep pockets"; ie: You could only buy an "off the rack" Model 12, Model 54 or later Model 70- no Super Grades or Pigeon Grades, the M21 might have stayed as the "plain Jane" boxlock-- but as WRA offered options and Custom shop made to order M21's, that changed.

I do not own, nor plan to, either a graded AH Fox or a M21-- I stay with lower graded pre-1913 12 gauge LC Smiths due to "supply and demand" and also, because like Field grade Model 12's, I seem to shoot them fairly well- on game birds and barn pigeons- I am NOT a clays shooter--

I have one AH Fox- a 20 gauge Sterlingworth with 28" barrels, ejectors and DT-- it weighs 6 lbs. even-- a hunting pal has a pre-WW2 mfg. 20 gauge M21 Trap grade- 28" barrels, ejectors, DT and smallish beavertail forearm- and it weighs 7 lbs 3 oz. I rest my case--

Rest your case in peace...

Here is an early 30's Model 21, 20 gauge with 28" bbls, DT's and a SPFE. 6lbs 2 oz
I'd be 6 even but I added a petite solid buttpad(still have the original plate)

Yup, I had an identical early 20 gauge that weighs 6 pounds 2 ounces. I could have drilled it down to six or under. It is a 28" gun. Ken, tell us more about the sale of the 21.

8B

The sale didn't happen. I bid it up to what I thought was a fair price that included the 15% buyers premium. I got out bid but there was apparently a reserve that wasn't met. Several other guns went the same direction.

Tip-toeing in, I go along with views that grade-for-grade there are better American guns. JO'C's endorsement was: "I believe the Model 21 Winchester double is probably the strongest, most rugged, and most trouble-free double ever made." Even taking out the qualifier, that doesn't say much for the Model 21. There's more to a good gun than strength and plumbing.

Yep--There's feather crotch, super steel, fine fitment, WS chokes and an ability to put a smile on your face because the bird is down and it all happened so naturally. (I do agree that some of the prettiest girls at the dance are Parkers and Foxs though.)

Don't think that's all O'Connor had to say about the 21. I never read him, but was influenced to check out the 16 ga. M-21 by what Gene Hill and Don Zutz wrote of it. I've never regretted buying mine -- it's not hard to dismiss naysayers who've never seen nor handled it. I like it enough that I invested in dressing it up a little ... posted a few photos recently on the "Bulino Engraving" thread.

Jay

This naysayer has seen and handled it, Jay, and the Parkers and Foxes. JO'C's assessment also provides how much---or little---has changed over the years:

"One of my bitter regrets is that I didn't buy U.S. Steel at 40 right after the war and another is that I didn't lay in a better supply of Model 21s at the same time."

Winchester gave up on the standard Model 21 and made it a luxury item, "custom made to special order only." Scarcity, about 100 a year, made it a good investment.

King, I spoke of my gun in particular. The guns can vary a lot in weight and weight distribution that determines handling characteristics.

Some think O'Connor was a virtual mouthpiece for Winchester, so it's odd to see his comments used to damn with faint praise. As I said, I never read him, but long as we're quoting him, I quickly found this about his 20 ga.:

"The little gun is the finest all-around shotgun I've ever owned, and I use it on everything from quail to ducks about three fourths of the time...." It clearly wasn't only about scarcity or strength for him.

Winchester stopped making the 21 as a "production" gun because the expense of manufacture was too high. Their production operation was never high volume, only made some 34,000 total, which I think includes the custom shop guns.

Jay

Well, if they're such great guns and so relatively few were made why are there always so many offered for sale?

That sounds more like a rhetorical question than one for me Joe. I can't answer for the vagaries of supply and demand for sale of personal property. But maybe it's not all that complicated ... maybe all those previous owners died, huh? Couldn't take the guns with them, ya know? Or maybe they just got too old and tired to carry all that weight, and gave them up?? Maybe they died of heart attacks while carrying all that weight???

This ground has been plowed and re-plowed way too often by detractors and defenders with little new coming of it. All I can tell you for sure is, mine's not for sale, and I can't see how it ever will be.

Jay

Yeah, I had one too.....for a short while. But when I'd lay down my Parker's or Lefevers or English guns and pick it up I'd darned near sprain my back. Seems I still have an eye for slim waisted, well endowed blondes rather than those who could break every bone in my body in a wrestling match.

Oh yeah, me too, though hair color's no matter for me. Guess yours wasn't a slim-waisted 21 ... my back hasn't suffered much from raising this one.

Now Gunflint, you're sure trying to tempt me to come over to the dark side, aren't you.

PS: Disregard 90% of what I say, have just come from four days in hospital with pneumonia. But the other 10% still stands.

Sam Snead said,"You got to dance with who you brung".

Not say'n the Model 21 isn't a perfectly fine, high quality gun. And, of course, everyone is free to like whatever gun they wanna like.

This is probably considered blasphemy, but compared to a Fox, the action on a 21 sure looks big and clunky to my eye.

JMHO

Joe once referred to my Winchester 21 Trap as a "Sherman Tank".....right after I won a shootoff with it. I love my Fox, Parker, Reilly hammer gun, etc. but the 21's would remain if I had to reduce the collection. Anyway, where would we all be if there wasn't a variety of good double guns to admire, critique, love and insult?
Being an old duck & goose hunter, I have a soft spot for the heftier guns. Fond I am of Peter Paul Rubens' paintings also.

Sorry to hear you were knocked down for a while Joe -- good time for a big Thanksgiving dinner to help restore.

What a beautifull shotgun CfC. I cant remember the last time anything made me so want it. (But mine would have a dearly departed GSP on it)

Your mention of your dog makes me guess you saw the other pics in the engraving thread Homer, but here they are in case not. It's fun showing off Ray Cover's work. Wish I had the equipment and skills for better photos.

Jay

Geez Charlie, ease up a bit will ya? There ain't enough of them to go around as it is and their prices are already too high.

Yeah, I know, guilty as charged of overkill. I've had the gun for almost 20 years, but the engraving is new, and I'm as excited with the result as a 4 year old on Christmas morning.

Jay

[quote=GaryW]Joe once referred to my Winchester 21 Trap as a "Sherman Tank".....right after I won a shootoff with it. I love my Fox, Parker, Reilly hammer gun, etc. but the 21's would remain if I had to reduce the collection. Anyway, where would we all be if there wasn't a variety of good double guns to admire, critique, love and insult?
Being an old duck & goose hunter, I have a soft spot for the heftier guns. Fond I am of Peter Paul Rubens' paintings also. [/quote Und zaftig Damen moggeweise?? Ja, alles gut!!

My favorite old-timer golfer, besides Ben Hogan- Sam :Mr. Greenbrier" Sneed- perfect swing time after time, classy dresser- but as our HS golf team cocah was also the English composition teacher and our editor-in-chief of "The Inflictor"- he might, perchance, have re-structured those immortal words- to "You gotta dance with whom you brung" or in the case of the March Sadie Hawkins dance, with whom brung you"!! Miss those old great golf legends--Slammin' Sammy Sneed--