Good company which I believe is still in business. The gun is a boxlock with sideplates, but looks like a very nice gun. The wood is of high quality. If you do a search here for Helibloc [spelling??] I think you will find some good info on the system.
I think it's a standard A & D & top extension (kind of like a Webley & Scott), but the toplever/spindle arrangement is a little different.
See how there's not screw in the toplever? I think they eliminated it in a process that cut out some other pieces and lowered costs.
I had a French 16g made on the same kind of action.
OWD
Thanks Daryl. V-C is definitely still in business, though focused more these days on rifles and OUs. I tried searching for Helico and Helice rather than Helicobloc and found a bit more information.
OWD - does your 16 ga. have "helice" or "helico" marked on it somewhere?
Not sure. I don't have it any more, either.
I swear I've seen Helice, or something like that, on other French doubles.
OWD
yes a 20 ga really nice gun it had extra locking bolt on top of the purdy under bolt the 20 was a really good looking, great balanced gun.it wasn't mine, but it looked like a lot of work to fit the locking bolts.verny carron still makes really nice SXS
Helice is a French word for what we call ZZ birds, or Electrocibles, the game that is a "replacement" for live pigeon shooting. It is widely practiced in Europe.
Maybe Helibloc is a French name derived from Helix, meaning
propeller (which is what the Helice target is propelled by) and bloc, maybe meaning "to stop".
Just a shot in the dark.
SRH
Actually, in this case, the name doesn't have anything to do with the ZZ bird game. Rather, it means screw or spiral, and refers to the mechanical nature of the locking system. As OWD notes, there are similarities to the Scott spindle, but it's basically upside down, with the screw coming up from the bottom (which is why none is visible in the top lever).
Doverham, French doubles are very difficult to date accurately. V-C is indeed still in business, and they may be able to give you a range of dates within which your gun was produced. My best guess would be between the wars; less likely, perhaps shortly after WWII. But V-C no longer has most of its old records, and they won't be able to date the gun for you by serial number. However, when I wrote them years ago about a V-C gun I owned, they were kind enough to furnish pages from a period catalog which allowed me to identify the model, and to come up with a ballpark range of dates.
Thanks for the responses. From the limited information I have come across, V-C patented a triple locking action similar to the Webley action in the early 1900s called the Helice grip. It was modified/improved over time and had various names including Helicobloc and Heli 33. VC let the patent expire for some reason and other French makers used it and often marked their guns with similar names - Helico, Helistop, Helicogrip. There are some patent diagrams posted on this link (en Francais, bien sur)
Gournet Larry - thanks for the tip on reaching out to VC, that sounds worthwhile.
Here is a photo of the proof marks:
Ham if you want to know how the "Helice" system work send me a mail and I scan the picture and info from my book : Les armuriers de Saint Etienne en catalogues.
Marc.
Doverham--You've got a gun with a double St. Etienne proof (mark seen twice on each barrel in front of the flats) and with factory 2 3/4" (70mm) chambers. The chamber length would lead me to speculate that it's perhaps more likely to be a post-WWII gun than one from between the wars years. Acier diamant = diamond steel. Pretty much like the different names for the steel Parker used in its doubles. Should indicate higher quality steel.
What you found on Helice, Helicobloc etc is a good explanation of the situation. There are a lot of French guns out there not made by V-C which use the same system, or perhaps minor variations of it.
Nice restock, Doverham. I've just been doing some research on V-C guns. Have owned a couple in the past, but never one with sideplates. I recall that Steve Barnett had a V-C sidelock for sale a few years back, great condition. You don't see many of those. Thought about chasing it a few times, never did.
Rene Fonck, WWI Spad pilot and surviving ace of aces (from both sides--75 kills), shot a V-C Helice gun. He gave the gun high marks.
That's a nice looking gun, quite similar to the one Barnett had as best I can recall--but priced about 50% higher.
Paul is looking for a bit of info on this Belgian made sidelock with Helicobloc and VERCAR(Verney-Carron) on the toplever.
JNO. HY. ANDREW & CO. LTD. TOLEDO STEEL WORKS SHEFFIELD
One doesn't see that many of the Andrew Toledo Steel tubes so I wonder if there was just one outlet in Liege.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=200594&page=1I have seen some sketchy info that the Helicobloc VERCAR might fall under a 1924 patent by Verney - Carron. Another topic of interest is regarding the stop on the left side of the toplever. Did the V-C Helicobloc VERCAR cover a toplever stop also. It is seen on just a few sporting weapons and Paul has an A. Cordy with such.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Antoine Cordy w/ toplever stop on frame.
The V-C at Osprey also has the same stop
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
JNO. HY. ANDREW & CO. LTD. TOLEDO STEEL WORKS SHEFFIELD 1899 Australian trademark - 1st trademark more than likely filed in 1898.
1902 U.S. of A. advert.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey - that is an interesting gun, minimal engraving but a fancy trigger guard inlay, rounded front lump and disc-set strikers. It also looks to be one of a pair(?). I don't have the information on hand unfortunately but I can post some information on the Helicobloc patent in a few days from one of their catalogs.
The top-lever stop is present on m V-C as well.
Have you noticed the toplever stop prior and what do you know about it? Is it V-C related or is it touted in their catalgoue?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Another question I have: Are there actually 4 points of lock-up or 4 bites?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Two bites on the lumps, one on the barrel extension (operating on a cammed locking mechanism a la Webley Screw Grip) and a 4th smaller extension at the top of the rear lump that is secured at the bottom of the breech face.
A couple of pics I posted above show the 4 lockup points. I hsd noticed the stop before but can't explain its utility. I have been struggling with catalogs given my weak French, so I can't report anything on that front yet.
Raimey: Per V-C's 1922 catalog, they still retained exclusive ownership of both the Helicobloc and Vercar marks. Not sure when the patent on the Helice system ran out, but V-C successfully sued a couple other makers in 1914 for using it.
That Belgian gun, by the proofmarks, is 1924 or later. So possible the patent had expired by then. However, although I don't know for sure, I've never seen the "Vercar" mark on any guns other than those built by V-C. I wonder if they built the gun for a Belgian dealer who had it proofed in Liege.
Thanks Mr. Brown & I think it was reverse. V-C was sourcing the craftsmen in Liege for some of their wares.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks Mr. Brown & I think it was reverse. V-C was sourcing the craftsmen in Liege for some of their wares. That's the only place they could have sourced the John Henry Andrew Toledo Steel Tubes.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, I'd be very skeptical about V-C guns built in Belgium. If the gun only has the toplever markings, no Verney-Carron anywhere else, then it wouldn't be "their" wares. And V-C specializes in barrels. Has for quite some time. Produces them for other makers. Can't imagine why they'd go to Belgium for barrels. Maybe licensed their Helice system to someone in Belgium, or made actions for someone in Belgium.
Still a mystery as far as I'm concerned.
What you think, that's what I want to hear. At this point I'm not surprised by any sourcing or cross sourcing. But if a V-C examples wears Jno. Hy. Andrew LTD. Toledo Steel, there's a high probability the tubes were sourced from Liege.
A. Chapus Sideplate w/
Jno. Hy. Andrew LTD Toledo Steel Works Sheffield
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88839&page=2Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Mainwaring also sourced the mechanics in Liege - I wonder if Fernand Thonon was making tubes? Or was V. Halska & Cie. Fabts the culprit?
Mainwaring et Cie - 55 Av. Victor Emmanuel III, Paris
Stamps given as Belgian with
ANDREWS NICKEL TOLEDO STEEL WORKS.SHEFFIELD. N
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post229482Other Mainwaring examples with Toledo Steel
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
V-C commissioned August Lebeau-Courally to make sporting weapons or moreover V-C sourced Liege for some of their wares:
''FAIT POUR VERNEY CARRON - LYON PAR AUG. LEBEAU COURALLY A LIEGE''
AUG. LEBEAU-COURALLY 9,3X74R BOXLOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no. 43800
'AUG-LEBEAU. LIEGE. FAIT POUR. JEANDET A LYON''
Another interesting stamp
And another
A PAIR OF BELGIAN MADE 12-BORE SIDELOCK EJECTORS, serial no. 9390 / 1
''LEBEAU COURALLY ARMES DE GRAND LUXE LIEGE BELGIUM NO 9390 - 9391 MADE FOR HY. ANDREW AND CO LTD.'' w/ HY. ANDREW & CO. LTD on the underside. To me it seems that August Lebeau was real chummy with the Hy. Andrew & Co. Toledo Steel rep. in Liege.
I have not seen the marks but that is the way I interpret the given stamps. I could be mistaken.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
My ARMAF detachable lock gun, has John Henry Andrew marked barrels very similar to those above. I need to get some photographs of it and post them.
Yeah, please do as the more the merrier. I've seen an ARMAF 16 bore boxlock with sideframe reinforcement 1943 proof on the 16 Gauge site.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The VC-Helicobloc gun is mine and was proofed in 1926 (code e) if that helps anyone with the gun. Raimey has been very helpful with providing some information on it. We believe it was (is a pigeon gun) as it weighs 7# 4ounces with 29 1/8" barrels.
Paul
It appears that there was an interesting relationship between France and Belgium when it comes to guns. Even though there was a very active gun industry in France, a number of French gun shops had guns made for them in Belgium. Some people think "French" if they see a French address and city on the barrels. The proofmarks often show the gun to be Belgian in origin. Seems especially true of guns sold by various Paris dealers.
1926 . . . that's only 4 years after it was stated in the V-C catalog that the marks "Helicobloc" and "Vercar" were the exclusive property of Verney-Carron.
Re the "Helice" system, for which "Helicobloc" was one of the trademarks, I received the following information in a 2002 letter from Claude Verney-Carron:
"Helice was the name of the locking system patented by my great-grandfather Jean Verney-Carron at the beginning of the twentieth century. When the patent expired and fell in the public field a lot of gun-makers from Saint-Etienne adopted the system for their own use. That's why you can find a lot of brands derived from the word Helice. Verney-Carron used the following ones: Helice Grip, Helice 33, Helistop, Helicobloc, Heliduplex."
That same 1922 V-C catalog carries one of the most interesting shotgun ads I've ever seen. There's a full page photo of Captain Rene Fonck, WWI's surviving ace of aces (75 kills) on which he's inscribed: "I am very pleased with your Verney-Carron Helice Grip shotgun. The birds fall like Krauts!" Underneath the photo, V-C refers to Fonck as a "famous hunter of men with his machinegun". That's even better than the Fausti sisters!
Forgot to mention the fact that there is no serial number on the Helicobloc--Vercar gun that is pictured above.
Paul
I find that quite unusual. There's no shortage of nameless Belgian and French guns out there, but I can't recall any I've seen without a SN. Almost makes me wonder whether some enterprising Belgian gunsmith fitted a set of barrels to an "orphan" Helice action.
Well worth the wait. My French is pretty poor but does it note to beware of counterfeits and was 1914 the year of the design? It gives as 3 point means of ID?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
So, a lack of a serial number and not passing the V-C 3 point litmus test just may mean that it was a lunchbox Belgian V-C. But the mechanic would sure have to have had some great connections as the tube steel was upper rung and the copied system was relatively new.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Oops, I overlooked out two important pages. I think these get to your question, sorry for the omission:
Guys, since I can't read or speak French, what is the upshot of all this literature?
Paul
My French is very rusty, but V-C appears to have had a lot of makers copying their 4-point lock-up action and successfully filed suit in 1914 to enforce their patent. It is interesting that 6 pages of their catalog address in various ways their patent and the repeated attempts of others to copy their lockup.
Imitation is the sincerest of flattery.
And a lot more people did copy it once the patent expired, as Claude Verney-Carron indicated in his letter to me. There are plenty of French shotguns out there marked with some takeoff on the "Helice" name but not marked Verney-Carron.
There seem to be some interesting parallels with this story and the A&D patent disputes. I understand V-C lost most (all?) of their historical records in a flood (I think you told me that, Larry). That is a shame because I bet there is an interesting story to be told that would shed some light on the French gunmaking industry - which remains overshadowed by its English and Continental competitors (at least here in the US).
Of course, losing a couple of world wars does nothing to fortify your national reputation for gun-making, either . . . .
Hum, so with the subject sporting weapon, do we or do we not meet the criteria for a V-C version?
And if I understand correctly, all Helicobloc VERCAR V-C have the toplever stop?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey - the lack of any other V-C marks on the gun would make me suspicious. The other V-Cs I have seen have VerCar, an overlapping VC or similar proprietary markings on the water table and/or the outside of the action, as well as the barrels (though the latter obviously could not be the case here). Is it possible that this action left the V-C factory in the white (except for the top lever which had already been marked with the proprietary information) and was finished and proofed in Liege with Belgian barrels?
I also think that Larry's comment about V-C being a noted barrel maker who supplied barrels to others warrants some consideration.
Lots of strange things seem to happen in this business, particularly during the disruption of a world war or two. The gun looks very well-finished and certainly does not appear to be a lunch box project. Maybe someone hired a local but very skilled gunsmith (former V-C employee living in Belgium?) to make a custom gun, and he sourced and assembled the parts from his various connections in the trade.
Or perhaps you have unearthed the French version of the Frederick Scales gun
Personally I think the possibility of V-C making tubes is Horse biscuits. Show me the ledger where they sourced steel bars 4" in diameter & say 15 - 18" long from specific steel makers? They probably didn't have any more tools that a handful of bastard files. I'll bet my hat that they made zero(0) Jno. Hy. Andrew Toledo Steel tubes. I have a difficult time believing anything a maker says about itself without some external inputs to confirm. For some reason the Andrew's Toledo Steel tubesets were revered. I doubt anyone less a master mechanic could have sourced them.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Show me the ledgers, an image of a hammerforge or noise complaints against said maker??? Otherwise, what if I told you that France, Germany, Italy, etc. all sourced the mechanics in Liege. It was all was about the Benjamins. Guess I should include the makers from the Little British Isles also?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
If V-C didn't source a Belgian mechanic for tubes, my guess that either Ronchard-Siauve or Ronchard-Cizeron would be next in-iine.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Verney-Carron has added some historical information to their website since I last checked it out, which does seem to suggest their expertise in barrel-making was a later development:
At the end of the First World War, the decision was taken to set up a proper factory. This new operation, undertaken in 1926, allowed the employees and equipment of another manufacturer, Auguste MARZE, to be assimilated into Verney-Carron. Owing to the large investment required to finance the new factory, the financial resources of the family and the friends of the two businesses, were invested in the new Verney-Carron S.A.
The great crash of 1929 and the depression that followed prevented this new company from reaching its full potential. As a result, it was decided to gradually changeover from a direct sales operation into a manufacturing company selling through a network of firearms retailers. It was during this period that the publication of a yearly company catalogue enabled it to add the production and sale of firearm accessories and hunting equipment to its firearm manufacturing sales. Starting in 1936, Verney-Carron added fishing and tennis equipment distribution, and bicycle manufacturing to its business portfolio. This diversification helped the company to survive the difficult years of World War II.
Claude Verney-Carron died in 1941. At the end of World War II, his son Jean, with the support of Auguste Marze, undertook the task of rebuilding a company with a depleted work force and obsolescent equipment. He succeeded in assembling, under the name "Groupement d'Exploitation des Fabricants d'Armes Réunis (GEFAR), six manufacturers, all of whom all contributed their own resources. Over 150,000 firearms were manufactured, despite competition from the national arsenals, most of them under the brand name "Pionnier [Pioneer]" adopted by Verney-Carron.
Claude Verney-Carron, the son of Jean, joined the business in 1948. He encountered the representative of a little known Italian manufacturer, which had just completed the development of a very light semi-automatic hunting shotgun. A license for the manufacture of this product was signed in 1954, marking a new turning point in the history of the firm. In effect, Verney-Carron entered into the era of modern industrial production.
Jean Verney-Carron died is 1961. Albert de Veron de La Combe, nephew of Auguste Marze, assumed control along with Claude and Henri, Jean's sons. SIFARM (a combination of the venerable manufacturers Berthon Frères, Francisque Darne, Didier-Drevet, Gerest and Ronchard-Cizeron) was absorbed in 1963, along with the famous Canonnerie (Barrel makers) Jean Breuil. Verney-Carron now effectively controlled all its manufacturing, and Henri Verney-Carron, Technical Director, fully mastered the secrets of barrel-making. He decided to abandon earlier techniques, putting in place modern processes and installing efficient new equipment, thus producing barrels ranking among the best in the world.
Raimey, I don't think anyone is suggesting that V-C made that PARTICULAR set of barrels. In their 1922 catalog, the only name attached to the steel used in their barrels (other than "diamond steel") is Jacob Holtzer. Jacob Holtzer's factory, according to the V-C catalog, was located in the Loire basin--which would put it some distance outside Belgium. It's not quite clear whether V-C made the barrels, because information on Holtzer indicates that they did make barrels. However, V-C certainly hints at making barrels, using Holtzer steel, in their 1922 catalog:
"In the production of barrels for our best guns, we use the four following qualities (of steel): . . . " They do go into great length discussing barrel steel in that catalog, and touting the superiority of theirs compared to other makers.
Larry, Raimey and Doverham, what is the verdict on the provenance on this "guild gun" proofed in Belgium?
From what I am hearing, is it a VC action (in the white) with Toledo steel tubes that was assembled, stocked, and proofed in Belgium? It has no serial number (a real mystery to me) and is obviously high quality, which tells me it had to be made by someone with connections to VC and Belgium that knew what he was doing. Being gun # 1 of a pair and with the initials inlaid in gold on the trigger guard tells me it went to a man of considerable means and influence who could probably get any gun he wanted, but of course, did not want to spend the money for engraving, or for a name brand gun.
While at the Southern S x S event in NC this past April, a Belgium engraver looked at this gun and said it was done by the same company (person) that made the Jules Bury action. I was not present when this guy looked at the VC gun but several dealers were present. His interest was to buy it, engrave it and then resell, of course.
Thanks to all that have tried to help with the history of the gun.
Paul
Paul, I come down in favor of VC action but not a VC gun. No "Verney Carron" on the gun elsewhere and no SN pretty much tells me it wasn't anything that came out of their operation in St. Etienne, even without taking into account the Belgian-proofed barrels. Did something happen to the original barrels and those are replacements? That's a possibility. I have difficulty getting my head around a gun of that quality--let alone a pair of guns, assuming #2 matches this one perfectly--with no SN, no maker's name, and the anomaly of the odd barrels.
I've seen a number of non-VC guns built on Helice-system actions, marked with some version of "Helice" and no maker's name. But they've all carried St. Etienne proof, and I haven't seen any of the quality of this one. Might some maker in Belgium have purchased some VC actions? Perhaps. But I think I'd be more inclined to go with someone in Belgium fitting high quality replacement barrels to a VC action. That's about as good as I can do based on the evidence at hand.
I think you have a very well-made and unique gun. I really can't offer a qualified opinion - but if it were mine, I don't think I would be concluding it was a V-C.
A friend last year found an absolutely stunning Belgian-made sxs with no makers name - this gun had every attribute of a "best" gun. He bought it for $5k and if it had had Francotte or Lebeau marks on it, the gun could have sold for 4x that amount, easily. Buy the gun and not the maker . . . .
In what would be an Ockham's Razor scenario, in that the simplest answer is that it is a quality V-C type frame with what was considered for some reason at the time to be an upper rung tubeset, which I wouldn't define as odd or as a non-original set. Many of the Paris retailer's examples for the period wear Jno. Hy. Andrew Toledo Steel from reasons unknown. The frame is unadorned, unmarked, and along with the tubeset reeks of quality. Might be some maker's mark on the inside of the locks to point to sourcing. I would term it that you have a Belgian Tradegun based on a V-C type platform.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
On V-C making tubes, I find that very difficult to believe pre-WWII. But post WWII, the probability is quite high. When a makers touts steel types, it is more than likely propaganda as a advertising campaign for some steel concern's wares. I'm not sure regarding the French steel concerns, but the most of the German makers, less Krupp I think, paid a royalty to Heinrich Ehrhardt for his 1891 Ehrhardt'schen Preß- und Ziehverfahren, where he patented a process to form and stretch cavities/tubes under compression, for the right to use his technology. Erhardt, Witten and others utilized this technology early on for their tubes. I'm sure a rough tube would me much easier to convert for a sporting weapon, but info strongly suggests that in fact they did make tubes, my next question would be in what form did they acquire the raw materials, bar stock or tube cavity/rough tube?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Can't tell you in what form the tubes arrived Raimey, but it's clear from the V-C catalog that the steel came from the Jacob Holtzer firm in the Loire Valley. The information I can find on Holtzer (in French) indicates they made barrels. Weren't Breuil and Bernard making barrels prior to WWII? In Bernard's case, if not Breuil's, prior to WWI? So why not V-C?
Very odd, IMO, that a gun of this quality has no SN. V-C, as early as 1922, was selling guns by other makers: Browning A-5's and handguns, for example. But no non-V-C side by sides. And the only barrel steels they mention, other than "acier comprime", are diamond steel and 3 different types of Holtzer steel.
Thanks to all for your contribution. I am sending the gun to JJ Perdeou for a good cleaning and will ask him to inspect the locks for markings and if he finds them, will post new information.
You are not comparing apples to apples. True, Breuil and Bernard were tube makers. But V-C was closer to a retailer of weapons and related haberdashery. Firearms merhants/retailers, for the most part, lie, lie & lie of theirs wares just like a used car salesman or GPS salesman. They cannot tell the truth and their catalogues are for entertainment or self lauding. Again, I would say show me the ledgers noting in-house tube sourcing; indicate how they received tubes or bar stock or show the inventory of equipment & I'd like to see a Pratt & Whitney machine or Ludwig Loewe. In fact, I'd entertain the idea if V-C had a barrel machine by the French concern Barriquand & Marre. An answer to just one would point toward tube production. But if they did not have the machinery they could not make the tubes. It is as simple as that. It is easy to say they did not as the burden of proof lies with stating that they did make tubes. I only have a cursory review of the Jacob Holtzer concern, but being one of the few that I do not know like back of hand, I will rectify that. Sporting arms steel was such a small percentage of the overall production that it is difficult to find much info. But when a steel maker speaks of steel barrels, almost always it refers to cannon or big guns.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I think you're a bit off target, Raimey, and perhaps showing some Belgian prejudice here. (We'll have to start a thread of Belgian jokes, which the French love to tell.) You seem to be putting V-C in the same category as Gastine Rennette, or some of the other Paris "makers", that mostly retailed guns sold by others. Indeed, V-C's 1922 catalog does list guns made by others--clearly specifying that they were made by others. But V-C also invented and patented the "Helice" locking system, which probably ranks closely--in the world of French doubles--to the Scott spindle in the British trade. A lot of St. Etienne guns not made by V-C used it. Their catalog refers to specialization in "the production and sale of hunting guns", and it shows numerous V-C models. Boxlock, sidelock, hammer and hammerless.
And if V-C barrel steel--whether they made the barrels or not--did not come from Jacob Holtzer, I find it hard to understand why they would advertise that as their source. As for Holtzer, the firm had 1,500 workers in 1897, so we're not talking about some small outfit. Did they make barrels or simply produce the steel that went into barrels? Impossible to tell from what I've been able to find in French, which states that they did make "canons". Unfortunately, that word means both barrels and artillery pieces.
When JJ Perdeou takes the gun apart, it would not surprise me to see the mark of Britte Bros. somewhere, like on the ejector or ?. Their mark is found on guns of many European countries.
I do not have a stake in whether tubes are sourced from Austria, Bohemia, France, Germany or Liege. I have no bias toward Liege. It matters not what the truth might be, just as long as it is the truth as best it can be formed. I have seen countless situations where a retailer went to extreme lengths to hide the origins of the components of the sporting weapons. To me all are infuriating, as I carry the torch of the unsung small pool of talented mechanics that made it all work. Now if proper economics were in-place, sure V-C could have easily sourced Holtzer at that point in time. Analysis of a piece of tube will reveal the properties and if the composition of Holtzer steels for the period is available, then it might go a long way in solving the problem. Is the steel type names consistent across V-C's catalogues? Holtzer could have utilized a compressed cavity mold but most steel concerns found out quickly that small arms tube production was not a money maker and that's why the Germans invested so heavily in barrel production in Liege. Berger & Co.(later Witten), found this out the hard way and ceased between 1885 to 1886. From the many previous instances, just an advert in a catalogue is not indicative of tube production. Stated en nauseum, show me some external inputs that indicate tube production. I'm not basing this one just on one steel concern or 1 gun making centre as all used a very similar modell. So much misinformation has been propagated for such a long time that many find it difficult to embrace the truth.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Jacob Holtzer & Co. of Unieux - 1900
Still in the cursory stage as I don't know all the players, but in 1900 they don't seem to be concerned with bar stock for sporting weapons tubes.
Société de Firminy looks promising as they peddled rods for gun tubes and they had a steel named Acier Satan, which must have been harder than hammered hell. I'm sure they got a demerit or 2 for noise pollution on the helve-hammers. I don't know if you have been around a diesel pile driver, but from what I can gather it was worse than that.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6I0eAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA791&lpg=PA791&dq=soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9+de+firminy+acier+satan&source=bl&ots=kh0a4VBO71&sig=g3liGZ2XQEVZN2zrRUIqTfX-tNQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vd2WUfqJKYOm8QSL8oGwBw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9%20de%20firminy%20acier%20satan&f=false
1891 - Acier Satan, Acier Chrome - many more and may contain some info but will take a bit to sift thru it.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, that's good stuff. I only wish I had the ability to digest all of these things.
Mr. Hallquist, thanks and it will take some time to put the overall picture together. But on the last 2 paragraphs that I posted from 1900 they are just sentences away under the Société de Firminy heading but Mr. Brustlein was known as the Alloy King of France and was at Jacob Holtzer & Co. to at least 1877 and possibly later. In 1900 I'm not sure if he was still there or not. With the last snippet of barrel making in Unieux(an assumption can be made it was Jacob Holtzer & Co.), I'm not sure who exactly was doing the hammering.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Henry Rieger Paris - 1900 Expo Listing - Dossier Lafltteau et Henry Rieger, à Paris, rue Vivienne, 37, Henry Rieger successeur. 37 Rue Vivienne
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20k%20l/a%20laffiteau%20dossier%20fr.htm
Joseph Ronchard - Cizeron - 1900 Expo Listing
Leopold Bernard - 1900 Expo Listing
Gebrüder Verney - Carron & Joannes Verney - Carron
My French is poor, but V-C is not listed as a reputable tube producer and it seems that they are on the hunt for the best tube steels.
French patent Nr. 366459 – May 21st 1906 – Toplever improvement
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Well, my French is pretty decent. As of 1900, they had a reputation for the production of fine firearms. The text does not state that they're looking for barrels; rather, that they're loooking for "material of very great resistance" FOR their barrels. That doesn't establish that they made their own barrels, however . . . nor does it establish that they didn't.
On p. 8 of the 1922 V-C catalog are 4 Xrays of the type of steel used in high quality V-C barrels: Diamond steel, followed by the 3 types of Holtzer steel they use. Whatever Holtzer did in 1900, by 1922 they were producing steel that was being used in V-C barrels, whether V-C themselves made the barrels or not.
Maurice Forissier states that the Verney Carron, "acier diamant" was in fact provided by Holtzer.
I think that I read somewhere that at least in the 1980s, VC was one of the largest tube maker in Europe. They have had a cold hammering tube operation for a long time (I don't know how long).
There were quite a few barrel makers in the St Etienne area. Ronchard-Cizeron, Breuil (who also used Holtzer steel), Heurtier, etc... It does not mean that V-C did not do it either.
Best regards,
WC-
But WC, in looking back in time you are compressing it. Just like P. Beretta. They now have a whale of an operation but it did not start out that way and for the most part it was post WWII. I am skeptical that V-C made their own tubes. Some time circa 1890, Holtzer was rolling out 45k tubes per month for the Lebel. So for a time they were in the business, possibly military related. Like I've stated: show me the machinery.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
On p. 8 of the 1922 V-C catalog are 4 Xrays of the type of steel used in high quality V-C barrels: Diamond steel, followed by the 3 types of Holtzer steel they use. Whatever Holtzer did in 1900, by 1922 they were producing steel that was being used in V-C barrels, whether V-C themselves made the barrels or not.
Curious about the Xray images. Does it say Xray? The tubes were not dependable to say the mid to late 1920s and I wonder how they coerced to penetrate for a particular skin depth.
Possibly was it just a lot of magnification?
1902 Iron & Steel
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I guess that I am agnostic about it. I don't know that they did and I don't know that they did not. The company still exists, so maybe we could ask them...
Would Kebco help?
WC-
I owned a V-C true sidelock with the Helicobloc markings. When I contacted V=C about a manufacturing date, they indicated that their records were lost in a flood and they could not help me. When I had some work done on the gun, the gunsmith told me that the gun had British made Braiser (spelling?) locks. V-C makes nice double shotguns in addition to their double rifles. The importer is KEBCO at info@kebcollc.com
The term used for the images shown in the 1922 V-C catalog is "micrographies", which I translated as Xrays. Not sure the same word exists in English. It's what you see through a microscope. But in any case, a very close look at the composition of the steel used in V-C barrels. And I think we can take it to the bank, given the direct references to Holtzer steel, that that was indeed the source V-C was using as of 1922--whether they made the barrels themselves or whether Holtzer made them.
There is absolutey no question that V-C makes barrels now, and has for quite some time in the post-WWII era. I'd agree with Raimey that it's not entirely clear when they started doing that.
Following this w/some interest since its is a subject we've hashed & bashed before and each time a bit more information surfaces about these V.C. & 'helice grip' guns.
I'm thinking the better answer to the one that Paul has may be to try & ascertain who the initials belonged to. Could the gun have been made for one of the company owners or a director? Would that be reason for it to not have been on the books & thus not numbered? Does the crown depicted have any particular country affiliation or is it rather a mark denoting the build quality as opposed to grade? Could royalty order a gun specifically not to be serial numbered? What happened during German occupation? Could a pair of high quality guns been built off the books?
If one assumes it was built for royalty & was a pigeon gun, then ..
I have no idea if they still exist or not, but any records of the shooters who attended Monte Carlo during the days when it was THE top flyer shoot might be a good place to start looking into the possible owners identity. I know Bill Wise was trying to collect any European Grand Prix flyer shoot data he could find and he shared some of that w/me years ago. I know he had some programe copies from Monte Carlo shoots, but don't recall that he ever sourced any rosters. Perhaps the country itself has some records that could be sourced? If so, would they show not only who, but what guns they brought with them for the competitions? Would the customs records still be intact for persons coming into Monte Carlo with their 'pig' guns? Certainly there was a lot of gun history there prior to Grace Kelley becoming a princess. Just some idle thots here gentlemen, but its a dif path one might pursue. It could make a good article anyway. I'll not ride this tangent further.
Best, tw
The term used for the images shown in the 1922 V-C catalog is "micrographies", which I translated as Xrays. Not sure the same word exists in English. It's what you see through a microscope. But in any case, a very close look at the composition of the steel used in V-C barrels. And I think we can take it to the bank, given the direct references to Holtzer steel, that that was indeed the source V-C was using as of 1922--whether they made the barrels themselves or whether Holtzer made them.
There is absolutey no question that V-C makes barrels now, and has for quite some time in the post-WWII era. I'd agree with Raimey that it's not entirely clear when they started doing that.
I've done "micrographies" a million years ago. One needs to polish a steel sample post heat treatment with increasingly fine grit until diamond dust is used. Then the sample is looked at under a microscope. Absolutely no X ray is used or needed. The pictures certainly match what I remember of that process.
My gut feeling is that V-C was making at least some of their barrels, from rough tubes. The "exposition universelle" report certainly infers this, as it describes the type of preferred rough forging.
Of course I have no hard proof.
Such a hard proof will be quasi impossible to get 100 years after the facts and one or two major conflicts. One will have to rely mostly on hear-say and its lack of definitiveness...
Best regards,
WC-
Of course I have no hard proof.
Such a hard proof will be quasi impossible to get 100 years after the facts and one or two major conflicts. One will have to rely mostly on hear-say and its lack of definitiveness...
I do not subscribe to this school of thought as the information is out there & it is just a matter of time before the info is discovered or is scanned and located. I consider this to be taking the easy way out. When I have some time I will make some enroads. I enjoy blasing a new trail.
I too was very skeptical of X-Ray devices in 1922. But the images I posted were directly from Jacob Holtzer circa 1902. Notice that the magnification was in diameters.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
1900 Mines & Metal Expo info
All info suggests that H.A. Brustlein was the key to Jacob Holtzer's success in alloys.
http://books.google.com/books?id=JCfyAAA...ein&f=falseKind Regards,
Raimey
rse
A letter I received from V-C in 1992, concerning the first V-C gun I owned (an Helice 33 16ga), stated that their records were lost during WWII. However, they were as helpful to me as they could be, providing copies of pages from their 1933 catalog which included the basic information on my gun.
Joseph Brazier & Sons - The Ashes Works 1871 Advert
I'd like to see the pairing of the V-C Helicobloc & Brazier locks.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Flipping thru a few pages of the internet I found:
Berthon Frères- tubes stamped - Acier Arquebusier Cap JF - which in my mind is Joseph Cap - Jean Falla
I wonder if the initials BF in a rhombus, etc. are for:
Berthon Frères
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276179&page=allWhere does Canons Gallia fit into the equation?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
"Berthon Freres" was active from 1893 to 1922.
Their catalog included the "Helice-elite" (sic) brand and the "Gallia" brand.
"Gallia" is of course a play on the Latin name for what France was way back...
The preceding structure was "Martin Gerest" and the following one was "Laspoussas Berthon" followed in '23 by "Laspoussas & Driol". The "Berthon freres" brand could have survived until the 1950s...
Best regards,
WC-
(Not too bad uh???)
Lovely, lovely effort there Wild Bovine. Hum, how 'bout some birth and death dates as well as the date of being dubbed a knight?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
One question that I do have is centered around the V-C tube making villa. Let's say they were making tubes, then why post WWII, 1953 or thereabouts, why would V-C(control freak) want to bring Jean Brueil(Breuil-Aulagner) and possible another master tube maker under their umbrella?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Their catalog included the "Helice-elite" (sic) brand and the "Gallia" brand.
"Gallia" is of course a play on the Latin name for what France was way back...
They may have wanted to distinguish the few Gaul inland tubes they were using vs. all the Belgian components they were importing????? I just hope you are having as much fun as I am.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
One question that I do have is centered around the V-C tube making villa. Let's say they were making tubes, then why post WWII, 1953 or thereabouts, why would V-C(control freak) want to bring Jean Brueil(Breuil-Aulagner) and possible another master tube maker under their umbrella?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Based on the history posted on their website, that was the third amalgamation they went through in the 20th century, so it is perhaps not that extra-ordinary. Interestingly, shortly after the Brueil combination, they report that they scotched their earlier manufacturing techniques and modernized their barrel-making.
Doverham, you mean to say the they actually started to manufacture tubes? Put it in English please???? I do not think them to be imbibers of Scotch? Can't wait till Mr. Brown gets up.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
In their words:
Jean Verney-Carron died is 1961. Albert de Veron de La Combe, nephew of Auguste Marze, assumed control along with Claude and Henri, Jean's sons. SIFARM (a combination of the venerable manufacturers Berthon Frères, Francisque Darne, Didier-Drevet, Gerest and Ronchard-Cizeron) was absorbed in 1963, along with the famous Canonnerie (Barrel makers) Jean Breuil. Verney-Carron now effectively controlled all its manufacturing, and Henri Verney-Carron, Technical Director, fully mastered the secrets of barrel-making. He decided to abandon earlier techniques, putting in place modern processes and installing efficient new equipment, thus producing barrels ranking among the best in the world.
It does not entirely make sense. Note the statement that, post-merger, V-C "now effectively controlled all of its manufacturing," which implies that others were making some components for them previously (possibly including barrels). V-C then "fully mastered" barrel making (presumably through access to Breuil's expertise and methods), but shortly thereafter overhauled those "earlier techniques" and replaced them with "modern processes" and "efficient new equipment." So one could read this to mean that they acquired their barrel-maker, learned his methods, and then chose to reject those methods in favor of modern barrel-making technology.
That's the way I read and interpreted it but more external inputs needs to be entered. I don't doubt Jacob Holtzer as the steel source but they peddled bars. So there must have been an intermediary between the bar stock and the tube in the rough. In comparison it is quite easy to cut & polish a tube in the rough vs. whopping on a bar of steel to convert it to a rough tube. For the post WWI period, I'd really like to see an inventory of Pratt & Whitney machines to support the effort of tube making.
Yeah, V-C were really adamant on control of the overall process for some reason. Maybe wanted to protect their Helibloc contribution.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Actually Raimey, according to the information I found on Holtzer, they made "canons". Once more, whether that's barrels or artillery pieces is unclear because "canons" had both meanings, but I don't believe we can eliminate the possibility that they made barrels.
Nor can we eliminate the possibility that V-C made their own. The sentence "He decided to abandon earlier techniques, putting in place modern processes and installing efficient new equipment, THUS PRODUCING BARRELS RANKING AMONG THE BEST IN THE WORLD" sounds to me like V-C modernized their BARREL-MAKING techniques, since that is the specific reference. However, once again, it's not entirely clear.
Why incorporate a barrel-maker into their operation? Well . . . why incorporate Francisque Darne, who made guns based on an entirely different action? In England, why did Atkin and Lang merge, later incorporating both Grant and Lancaster? I recall touring the Federal Cartridge operation some years ago, after they acquired Estate. But rather than continue Estate's former (rather unique) shotshell operation, what they did was use the name on a cheaper line of shells--and put to good use some modern machinery that belonged to Estate.
Much more recently, V-C acquired the former Demas operation. Prior to that, as recently as the late 90's, V-C was having its two lines of side by sides manufactured for them elsewhere in the European Union, while they concentrated on OU's. Demas became "L'Atelier Verney-Carron" which handles both sxs and higher grade OU production for the company.
Guessing at why a company incorporates another is pretty much . . . guessing. That is, without supporting documentation.
Hi Larry,
Some times, when industries change, lots of companies go out of business, and are sold for almost nothing. In those cases, people with some cash can acquire famous brand names for very little.
Henry Rieger was a good example of this, buying a slew of companies (their names really) in the early 20th century.
The end of WWII was such a time, when people needed money to rebuild their home, and not to go hunting.
I suspect that V-C went on such a spree and cheaply acquired these brands that were quite important before the war.
Jean Breuil was 75 years old in 1951, and probably was the heart and soul of his operation. After his departure, his business could have unraveled.
The situation in the UK was similar with major concentration at the same time, and the unraveling of dozens of well-known firms (such as Woodward).
Best regards,
WC-
I'd have to say too that absorbing, merging, consolidating smells fishy & typically points to some type of financial instability, i.e. either they could not manufacture tubes/their products economically or their sourcing modells were a bit on the expensive side. You can call it a guess, but the preponderance of evidence is pulling the scales for V-C to be more of a firearms merchant. Hold out for as long as you like, you could be right. If V-C was the primary and absorbed the others, it might be the light of a glimmer of hope, although quite dim?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, I think you're grasping at very thin straws. A company that patented the Helice lockins system "more of a firearms merchant"? I don't think so . . . although their 1922 catalog does include a number of guns made by others--and clearly marked as made by others. Their sxs, on the other hand: All V-C. The tradition of taking credit for what they made and not for what they didn't continued right up to their 1999 catalog, in which they clearly identify the two models of V-C sxs thusly:
"Les Helux et Jet sont fabriques pour notre compte dans l'Union Europeene . . . ". Which translates as being made for them in the European Union.
V-C survives to this day, one of a relatively few St. Etienne firms still in business. They make a wide range of OU's, and in their "custom" workshop (L'Atelier Verney-Carron), they turn out higher grade OU's and bespoke sxs. Indeed, nothing but a firearms merchant.
True, for now, it may be Too Thin, Rooster! Too Thin! But I do ask for a little breadth and an open mind. For so long so many fantasies have been propagated regarding gun-makers. And sure at it's pinnace(feel free to give an exact date) v-C may have performed all tasks in-house. But their desire to control leads me to believe that they wanted to be more of quality control like many of the HofBüchsenmachers of a bygone era. Sure, V-C survives today and is probably unrecognizable compared to its design/development stage/former glory & I bet my hat that if you ask one of the current partners, they will have amnesia regarding prior performance. Like I said, catalogues are for entertainment and chest pounding. So be prepared that when I have adequate time to thoroughly investigate and read the gun-makers sourcing tea leaves, that the truth not surprise you. Until till then, maybe hide & watch. But feel free to contribute any and all info that supports your ideal status that keeps V-C on a pedestal here or by email. This is just capital.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Not sure it adds anything to this discussion, but my V-C (circa early '50s, maybe a bit earlier) has Jacob Holtzer stamp on the barrels.
Sure it does; all pertinent input has value. I'd say it distinguishes the Jacob Holtzer tube steel from the Belgian sourced variants. Maybe if it doesn't read Jacob Holtzer, the tube steel was sourced elsewhere?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I do not have a clue what was done in the old days, but I can say that all the 12 & 20ga shotgun barrels made in the 30+ years were made in house. They also make finished OEM barrels for several other mfgs, provide barrel blanks and have made every replacement barrel sold under the "Hastings" brand name.
Barrels are hammer forged, and yes I have seen the machines although I do not have the exact date they were installed.
Ken:
Sounds something akin to hearsay and I don't know that it could be entered as evidence. But I would take Jerry's word on it though.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Seeing the machines are akin to hearsay, Raimey? Yikes. Methinks you've been overcelebrating the holiday.
I have no reason to put V-C on a pedestal. However, you keep raising objections to which responses are forthcoming, at which point you raise other objections. For example, re V-C remaining the "principal" . . . it was V-C that survived, after absorbing Breuil, F. Darne, etc. Not vice versa. The people running the company are still named Verney-Carron, as they have been for almost 200 years. Fairly unusual in the gun business these days, wouldn't you say?
Nah, not too much over celebration on Memorial Day as there were just too many tasks at hand but might be more inclined for tomorrow's celebration of Jefferson Davis' birthday. We will sort of the chaffe/chaff sooner or later.
I do wonder if there are any Belgian/French sporting weapons with the toplever stop that are not associated with a V-C design? Antoine Cordy of Liege may have but was it because he absorbed V-C in 1929 and continued till? Or vice-versa?
A. Maisonnial--Helice Gripp
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=333022385 
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Gripp-Helico-Boxlock-Ejector-12-bore.cfm?gun_id=100341764 
Thivillier Freres
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey;
I almost went into shock, but Jefferson Davis' Birthday is noted on my Calendar.
I have an American Lefever, a British J P Clabrough & a German J P Sauer which all have top levers which stop at Center, though their stops do not look like that of the VC. The Clabrough & Sauer both have a Scott type spindle with double underbolts while the Lefever has a side pivot lever with a top bolt engaging the Doll's Head.
Nah, not too much over celebration on Memorial Day as there were just too many tasks at hand but might be more inclined for tomorrow's celebration of Jefferson Davis' birthday. We will sort of the chaffe/chaff sooner or later.
I do wonder if there are any Belgian/French sporting weapons with the toplever stop that are not associated with a V-C design? Antoine Cordy of Liege may have but was it because he absorbed V-C in 1929 and continued till? Or vice-versa?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, Cordy absorbed V-C in 1929? I'm beginning to think you're seriously into controlled substances.
I have a V-C catalog from 1922, as well as pages from V-C's 1934 catalog. The latter states: "Manufacture d'Armes Verney-Carron, St-Etienne (Loire). Depots: Paris, 37, rue Vivienne - Lyon, 8, rue des Archers." If there was any absorbing going on, seems to me V-C would have ended up in Belgium--which they clearly did not. Likely some Belgian makers just recognized and used a good design, as in the Helice system. (Under "Nos Representants a l'Etranger" in their 1922 catalog, V-C lists Algeria, Chile, Indo-China, Switzerland, Egypt, Morocco, Portugal, and Transvaal. Zip in Belgium.)
No controlled substances or barbiturates here, just an addiction to the internet requiring a daily regiment of 1s and 0s. I could not make something that good up. I have seen the reference on more than one occasion and I think all refs to be from the same source, Littlegun.be(or GG's site & his contribution to Littlegun):
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20c/a%20cordy%20gb.htmIt may be that Antoine Cordy was the V-C sourcing contact in Liege. For now I just don't know.
If it is true, you are going to have one be goose egg on your face. Actually, I prefer a goose egg for breakfast.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
2-piper:
Yes, we have some gems of state holidays with Robert E. Lee being observed the same day as MLK; then you can choose one day in Mardi Gras, or if you do not fancy that then Confederate Memorial Day may be more your liking; then there's Memorial Day and the Jeff Davis' Day. I'd like to see some of the contraptions you mention especially the Sauer. What variant is it?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, I have a J Falla marked over/under apparently retailed in Paris with the marks of " A Saint Hubbert Paris" on the hidden portion of the barrels. It has a top lever which holds to the right upon opening.
I'll post the interesting gadget next.
Looks like there may be multiple goose eggs for you there Mr. Brown- seems V-C was registered with the Liege Proofhouse from 1924 - 1929. So, am I to understand you correctly that they did not have a presence in Liege? Did they just register with the proofhouse just to add prestige?
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20verney%20caron%20gb.htmMore to come I'm sure.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Let me enlarge it for you just in-case you don't have your monocle or spectacles handy:
Verney - Carron a Liege
So do you want to change your testimony on V-C in Liege or face um impeachment? And they sourced at least 2.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The latter states: "Manufacture d'Armes Verney-Carron, St-Etienne (Loire). Depots: Paris, 37, rue Vivienne - Lyon, 8, rue des Archers." If there was any absorbing going on, seems to me V-C would have ended up in Belgium--which they clearly did not. Likely some Belgian makers just recognized and used a good design, as in the Helice system.....
Zip in Belgium.)
Just to remind you of the statement. Seems the catalogue was attempting to pull one over on you.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Can't really make out the tube maker's control mark on the tube at the flats(maybe Antoine Cordy?). Someone gives the EB for Estb. Britte:
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey;
I stand at attention any time I hear Dixie being played. A few weeks from now my SCV camp & my Wife's UDC chapter will be joining in a memorial at the Confederate Cemetery in Tullahoma TN.
The Sauer is a sidelock Knock-About grade made for VL&D CA 1902. The Clabrough I believe to be from the 1890's. Both are as I said double underbolted with a plain unbolted Doll's Head. Neither have any form of wear compensation, yet both remain tight. Both are 12ga. Both have back action locks but with plates that look like a bar action.
The Lefever is CA 1889 & has a vertical set bolt with a hook at the top. This hook engages the notched Doll's Head from the rear. For opening its top is rocked back by the side pivoted top lever. It has a screw through the top tang in front of the lever which bears upon the top of the bolt which can be turned down to compensate for bolt wear. On all three the lever simply comes to center & stops, always has, always will.
Raimey,
The majority of well known retailers in Paris had their stuff made in Belgium starting at the end of the 19th Century, such that after WWII, there was basically nothing left of the trade in Paris.
St Etienne was also hit very hard and most companies fell on tough times. It is not crazy to admit that V-C subcontracted a gun in Liege in 1966 (that's when this one was made).
V-C was registered to the Liege proof house from at least 1924-1929 and an operation in town.Could have lasted longer.
They did mark it "a Liege" to warn the customer that the gun had not been made in St-Etienne.
None of this is earth shattering.
Best regards,
WC-
St-Hubert was a retailer (Armurier) in Paris.
WC-
WC- I understand, but he made an absolute statement that V-C did not have / never sourced the mechanics in Liege. It is in Gold, better than black & white, so my advice is to have an open mind and get the whole story. A catalogue for a concern is just chest thumping and the concern does not want you to know where or what they've sourced. This has been my theme the whole length. Am I wrong? You can set your Richter scale to the sensitivity that you desire.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Let me ask a very basic question and preface it with this: seeing V-C held all their cards, sourced in-house or in country, why, why would they register with the Proof House in Liege? They were not any more immune to sporadic sourcing of the mechanics in Liege than any one else in the world. It had not to be constant.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
A. Saint Hubbert/Hubert Paris
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
So coming full circle and let's assume that V-C was registered with the proof facility in Liege from 1924 - 1929 and our sporting weapon of interest experienced proof in 1926(within 1924 - 1929) does this make it a bona fide Verney - Carron a Liege?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The latter states: "Manufacture d'Armes Verney-Carron, St-Etienne (Loire). Depots: Paris, 37, rue Vivienne - Lyon, 8, rue des Archers." If there was any absorbing going on, seems to me V-C would have ended up in Belgium--which they clearly did not. Likely some Belgian makers just recognized and used a good design, as in the Helice system.....
Zip in Belgium.)
Just to remind you of the statement. Seems the catalogue was attempting to pull one over on you.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Right, Raimey. The purpose of a catalog, with which I think maybe even you would agree, is to SELL GUNS. So, if the 1934 V-C catalog said the company was located in St. Etienne when they were actually in Liege, that wouldn't be terribly helpful in selling guns, now would it? As for having a presence in Liege--all I can say is none listed in their 1922 catalog. As for the 1934 catalog, I have only a few pages, so they may well have been doing business elsewhere than the two French "depots" in Paris and Lyon, in addition to their factory in St. Etienne. But to suggest that they were "absorbed" by Cordy . . . based on what? An obviously bizarre translation from the French using the phrase "taken in"? Sorry, but for a guy like you, who refuses to accept barrel-making machines as evidence, when Ken tells you he's seen them in the V-C factory in St. Etienne . . . all you're showing so far is your Liege prejudice. It would also mean that the company was temporarily "absorbed" by Cordy in the late 20's, then "unabsorbed"--and back in business making guns, at the very same location in St. Etienne (same address 1922 and 1934), that they were before being "absorbed".
I think we're getting into shotgun fairytale land here.
WC- I understand, but he made an absolute statement that V-C did not have / never sourced the mechanics in Liege. It is in Gold, better than black & white, so my advice is to have an open mind and get the whole story. A catalogue for a concern is just chest thumping and the concern does not want you to know where or what they've sourced. This has been my theme the whole length. Am I wrong? You can set your Richter scale to the sensitivity that you desire.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Where did you find such a statement, Raimey? I was responding to YOUR statement that V-C was not a gunmaker. Matter of fact, if you read back through this rather long thread, you will find that I was the one who brought forth a statement from V-C, in their 1999 catalog, that the only sxs they were selling at that time were "made for them" in the European union. So if they had an operation in Belgium in the late 20's . . . sure, entirely possible. Wouldn't have been the first time, would it? But that does not mean that they were not also making shotguns in St. Etienne at the same time. And since the vast majority of V-C shotguns, both new and old, are marked V-C St. Etienne and carry St. Etienne proofs, you're going way out on a very thin limb with a claim that all their guns were made in Belgium and not St. Etienne. Or even all their barrels were made in Belgium (when they were clearly made from French steel, and so marked).
Nor does any of it mean that Cordy "absorbed" V-C. Entirely possible--1929 being an interesting date, don't you agree?--that as a result of the Great Depression, assuming V-C had its own gunmaking operation in Liege (rather than having someone else make guns for them and marking them V-C--which is what they were doing with sxs in the late 1990's) that V-C might have sold their Belgian operation to Cordy and "retrenched" to the home factory in St. Etienne. All sorts of possibilities here other than everything V-C coming from Belgium, or Cordy "absorbing" the entire V-C operation--which, interestingly enough, appears to have re-emerged in St. Etienne, just a few years later. Strange things do happen, but the Cordy "absorption" of V-C in its entirety does not seem to fit the available evidence.
Guys, JJ Perodeau has done a strip and clean of the action on this gun and he says that there are no marking on either the ejector iron or the locks. But he did says that the locks and springs were "nice" and that is about as much of a compliment that you ever get out of JJ. Know that I add very little to the discussion but told Raimey that I would have JJ check for any markings when I had it worked on.
Thanks Paul for the effort.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
1890 - 1891 Catalogue - Société Verney-Carron frères(Loire)
St. Etienne Boxlock with S.H & Cie
Has the toplever stop
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
From the late 1860s forward to the turn of the Century I cannot find one listing where Verney - Carron Freres received an award for tubes. But there were other Frenchman who did:
Bernard (L.), à Paris, rue Villejust 12, Canons d armes à feu
Javelle-Magand, à Saint Étienne(Loire) -Canons doubles pour fusils de chasse
Martel-Chaleyer à Saint Étienne(Loire) -Canons pour armes à feu
Massardier-Poulet à Saint Etienne(Loire)- Canons pour fusils de chasse
Ronchard-Siauve à Saint Étienne(Loire)- Canons pour armes à feu
Bernard(A.) à Paris, avenue de Lamothe Piquet, 16, Canons pour armes à feu
Clair frères, à Saint Étienne(Loire)- Canons de fusils
Verney Junior was in charge of the satellite shop in Lyon and later circa 1900 Charles Jeandet was listed as the successor.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Lyon, as the largest city between Paris and Marseille, and conveniently close to St. Etienne, would have been probably the most logical place in France for a St. Etienne gunmaker to establish a presence--other than Paris.
Hi Raimey,
My sources say that "Verney jeune" in Lyon was a remote cousin to the St Etienne family, and that the firms are unrelated.
I can't easily find S.H. et Cie.
The fact that VC did not get a prize does not mean that they did not do any (barrels). There were many more barrel makers than the ones listed in the prize list (and very good ones at that)
As for the top lever stop, it might be explained by the fact that the Helice lockup system was adjustable for wear, and that hitting the stop meant that the adjustment had to be redone.
Best regards,
WC-
Raimey, Wildcattle, L. Brown and Doverham, I have some information to report of the VC gun in question that I learned today from an Englishman that trained at Purdey for 20 years and is now living in Ozark, Missouri. I took the VC gun to him to have the rear trigger adjusted (locks and cocking rods are gold plated), he stated that VC did have an office in Liege many, many years ago. While I cannot document this in print, I thought it was pertinent. He also said that the "JT" as stamped on one barrel stands for Jean Thonnard and I assume he was the barrel maker.
Know that this is all hearsay and not documented but thought I would share it.
Paul
Thanks Paul and the mechanic probably made the JT relationship at Peter's site. Joseph Thonon, Jules Thonon, maybe another J. Thonon would also be in the running. Jean Thonnard may have contributed some effort but just from the Jno. Hy. Andrew & Co. LTD Toledo Steel Works Sheffield tubes, it would seem that Fernand Thonon had a close association with the Jno. Hy. Andrew & Co. LTD Toledo Steel Works Sheffield tube source or he may have been the outlet.
French patent #255210 issuing protection for Société Verney-Carron frères for a 4 point lockup may be the origins of Société Verney-Carron frères' platform. It was issued in April 1896 and ran for 15 years.
Then the toplever stop aspect looks to have origins in 1924, although it could have been earlier:
Société Verney-Carron frères Helice - Nr. 577296 of 1924
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I'm somewhat perplexed by the wide girth given to Société Verney-Carron frères for being whole. I will acknowledge that at the turn of the 20th century V-C was looking for corrosion resistant tube steel and provided input to some steel concern and I assume that to be Joseph Holtzer. But it was seem that their post WWII or post 1960s ability has attached a bias to their pre-WWII status. V-C wanted to turn out world renown wares and I would be hesitant to say that they did not procure the best of the best effort for their tubesets. So if V-C is not receiving prizes for their tube efforts, would they not want to source a tube maker who has received such accolades? The tubes are at the nucleus or core for the sporting weapon platform. At the turn of the century it appears that Société Verney-Carron frères - St. Etienne was real chummy with Zavattero freres(Louis & Joanny) and they filed for at least one joint patent. Just from these type side ventures one would tend to believe that V-C was either sourcing, cross-sourcing or being sourced. For the moment I am not sure of the relationship but it would seem that Zavattero freres facility was a possibility( usine à Saint Bonnet le Château).
"Verney jeune" in Lyon advertised as Verney - Carron or Verney Carron et Compagnie, correct? So could it be that Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon has it origins from the 1620s and Société Verney-Carron frères has its origins from 1820? Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon did indeed sourced Liege like craftsmen like Lebeau and others I'm sure. And for a second I would begin to think that Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon was the concern that registered with the Liege proofhouse, but that possibility quickly disappears and I am back to Société Verney-Carron frères as surely there was some close working relationship between Société Verney-Carron frères & Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon as the two concerns essentially have the same name. Confusion is even evident today, and what about trademark issues and other related? It would seem that Société Verney-Carron frères embraces the confusion as they can pen their history as they see fit. Then Paul's example has the term VECAR which was a trademark of Société Verney-Carron frères and used on their letterhead. 1960s adverts tend to suggest that both Société Verney-Carron frères & Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon were under the same umbrella.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Hi Raimey,
As for the top lever stop, it might be explained by the fact that the Helice lockup system was adjustable for wear, and that hitting the stop meant that the adjustment had to be redone.
Best regards,
WC-
The top lever on my ca. 1950s version does not engage the stop, even with a crisp closing, but can be pushed over to contact the stop once the gun is closed. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess if the action was put back on face at some point in the past.
To adjust for wear, remove pins 20 and 22 in the patent picture under the action bottom plate and turn #21.
Best regards,
WC-
Just ran across another French double with a top lever stop. Not marked V-C, nor "Helice", nor any of the other variations of "Helice". Matter of fact, not marked at all with a maker's name. Single St. Etienne proof, 3-digit serial number. 16ga, 65mm chambers, barrels of "acier superieur". Very basic gun, but in nice shape. A true French "no-namer", or guild gun as we choose to call them. French guns are always problematic to date, and nothing on this one to give any very good clues. But I would guess between the wars.
Re V-C in Lyon, the 1922 catalog does not list a "depot" in Lyon. It does list one in Paris, and in fact every page, at the top, has either the St. Etienne address or the Paris address (Angle Place de la Bourse). The 1934 catalog uses the same format: pages alternating between the St. Etienne address at the top, or the Paris address (now 37, Rue Vivienne) plus an address for a Lyon "depot": 8, Rue des Archers.
Larry;
Do you know if this gun has wear compensation built in. Two of the three doubles which I have do not. On the third one (Lefever Side Pivot Lever) the compensation is separate from the lever so on all three the levers would have come to center when new. They never started to the right.
Miller, I'll have to look again. A friend has it, so I'll check next time I'm at his place.
As for Societe Verney-Carron, it could not possibly go back to 1620 with that name. The company only became Verney-Carron when Claude Verney married Antoinette Carron in 1830. She was the daughter of a gunmaking family, and it was at that point that Claude Verney made the name change from Verney to Verney-Carron.
As for Societe Verney-Carron, it could not possibly go back to 1620 with that name. The company only became Verney-Carron when Claude Verney married Antoinette Carron in 1830. She was the daughter of a gunmaking family, and it was at that point that Claude Verney made the name change from Verney to Verney-Carron.
I agree here as Claude, who was born sometime near 1800, whittled on a piece of wood and his talent was so great he won a prize. A bit early for him to be a master gunsmith and hang out his shingle in 1820, but that's the folklore. Like I said a lot of girth with this maker. True in 1830 he hyphenated his name so unless Junior in Lyon also married a Carron, their family ties must me somewhat closer. The origin dates of 1630/1650 that are throw around must be those of the Carron family?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Apparently with the Verney family rather than the Carron's, Raimey--at least per the article published in Shooting Sportsman on V-C a few years back. Guy Verney goes back to 1650. Antoinette Carron was "both a daughter and granddaughter of gunmakers" . . . Sorry, but 2 generations does not 2 centuries make.
If you could temporarily remove your Liege blinders, we might be able to have an objective discussion here. It isn't like St. Etienne lacks for a gunmaking history of its own.
Apparently with the Verney family rather than the Carron's, Raimey--at least per the article published in Shooting Sportsman on V-C a few years back. Guy Verney goes back to 1650. Antoinette Carron was "both a daughter and granddaughter of gunmakers" . . . Sorry, but 2 generations does not 2 centuries make.
If you could temporarily remove your Liege blinders, we might be able to have an objective discussion here. It isn't like St. Etienne lacks for a gunmaking history of its own.
I don't understand the gist of your post except to argue and if you wish to continue to lock horns then that's just fine with me. But do tell me how a fella in St. Etienne named Verney marries a lady in St. Etienne named Carron and then a business in Lyon is also named Verney Carron and is a very distant relative from Claude? Most of your arguments are filled with holes like Swiss cheese and do not hold water.
It is not my bias and not even a set of St. Etienne binders but a St. Etienne plank in your eye Mr. Brown that prevents us from having an "objective discussion." I concede that there was a gun making centre in St. Etienne but the French looked down their noses at the Liege makers while turning their heads while the sourced them. True, run of the mill production models could be had in St. Etienne, but they still sourced Liege for some of their components or wares. Show me 1 Liege maker that registered with the St. Etienne proofhouse? Just one. Also put some proof in all this guts and glory pudding that you spout of the St. Etienne craftsmen and not just folklore. You continue to say I have a Liege bias, which I do not, so prove it. You have a few more post than I, but sift thru and find say 10% that support a Liege bias. I challenge you.
I will say that I have a better appreciate the designs and technology of V-C such as the Heliblock, etc. and would heavily consider such a sporting weapons platform like the one Paul owns.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
All quite simple, Raimey. Lyon never was a gunmaking center (no proofhouse there, ever) unlike both St. Etienne and Paris. Why do you find it unusual for a French gunmaking family to sell guns in Lyon, even if they're made in St. Etienne? They also sold guns in Paris . . . per the same catalog (1930's) that tells us they sold guns in Lyon. And since catalogs are all about selling guns, why would they include incorrect information about where you can go to buy a Verney-Carron shotgun? Does not pass the very simple "logic" test--at least not for me.
As for whatever St. Etienne sourced from Liege . . . can't quite translate your sentence #2, paragraph #2. But if you're attempting to say they may have had barrels made elsewhere . . . OK, possible. So prove that's the case. We know for a fact that barrels were indeed made in France; we know for a fact that V-C advertised that the steel in their barrels came from a French steel-making company, or at least for some of their barrels. Possible, even with Holtzer steel, that the barrels were made in Liege? Sure. Also equally possible they were made in St. Etienne, unless there's proof that that is not the case.
As for V-C registering with the Liege proofhouse, are you suggesting that they did not also submit guns for proof in St. Etienne? Guess you have not looked at very many V-C guns, because all of them I've looked at (and owned) have been proofed in St. Etienne. We know for a fact that V-C absorbed several other French makers (including F. Darne). Why would it be impossible that they either bought out a Belgian maker, or licensed a Belgian maker to produce guns for them using their Helice design, then sell them in Belgium? If either of those is the case, makes more sense to get guns made in Liege proofed in Liege rather than in St. Etienne. Companies like Browning and Winchester have had millions of guns made in Japan. They also had them proofed in Japan. So let's just say that V-C's Liege operation was more of a case of that company being more aggressive about both having guns made for them and selling guns in Belgium--apparently for a fairly brief period of time, and perhaps interrupted by the Great Depression--than any Liege makers were about having guns both made for them and selling guns in France.
Good to see that you appreciate the technology behind the Helice guns. At least you're not telling us that it was actually designed by some Belgian. That's significant progress, in your case.
This find may be of interest for you all:
http://www.parlonschasse.com/component/p...15.html?p=31379Kind Regards,
Wolfgang
Just a note to The Lyon question:
On the official Site you an find this under history
En conséquence, la décision est prise à cette date de transformer petit à petit une entreprise de vente directe au détail en manufacture distribuant ses produits par le réseau des armuriers revendeurs. Cette politique devait conduire ultérieurement à l'abandon progressif des succursales créées à Lyon en 1872, à Marseille en 1876 et à Paris en 1907. Avec la crise vient la récession et Verney-Carron ajoute la distribution d'articles de pêche, de tennis, puis la fabrication de bicyclettes sous sa marque à partir de 1936. Cette dernière diversification, à une période où peu de gens sont motorisés, aide l'entreprise à passer les dures années de la seconde guerre mondiale.
That says, there was a "succursales" in Lyon since 1872! (as well as in Marseille and Paris which they have to abandon after the great crash in the 1920ies)
Kind Regards,
Wolfgang
Another St. Etienne proofed with toplever stop:
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
So I guess a toplever stop means you can't rely on the left-of-center top lever as an indicator of the gun being off-face?
If I remember any of the chatter thus far it would seem that either it or the Helicobloc was adjustable? So maybe it countered? I'm curious if every toplever with a stop containds the V-C design? Much more digging is to be performed.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Don't recall anything from the literature indicating that the Helice action is "adjustable". If it were, I'd think that would have received prominent mention.
Don't recall anything from the literature indicating that the Helice action is "adjustable". If it were, I'd think that would have received prominent mention.
Société Verney-Carron frères Helice - Nr. 577296 of 1924
"As for the top lever stop, it might be explained by the fact that the Helice lockup system was adjustable for wear, and that hitting the stop meant that the adjustment had to be redone."
"To adjust for wear, remove pins 20 and 22 in the patent picture under the action bottom plate and turn #21."
Per WildCattle's instruction/opinion.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey;
If I am understanding this correctly you are saying the lever would originally have stopped right of center. After adjustment is made it will again stop right of center, only when in need of adjustment does it go to center.
This is different from my J P Clabrough & J P Sauer each of which have no adjustment & the lever has always stopped at center & always will. Also on my early Lefever the lever always stopped at center, bolt is adjustable but the adjustment doesn't affect lever position.
The fact that the Helice system uses the bolting principle of artillery pieces, that it requires only 4 parts, and that it's extremely strong (powder and shot charges listed) are the primary characteristics listed on p. 7 of the 1922 V-C catalog. It does refer to "progressive tightening", although as Miller explained, many doubles have that feature to compensate for wear. On p. 9 of the same catalog, there is reference to tightening if there's any play (which V-C explains as "very rare"). But they certainly don't tout the adjustability of the action in the same way as, say, Lefever did on his guns.
With my gun, when the action is closed, the top lever does not contact the stop - there is maybe a 1/8" gap. However, the lever can be pushed over to contact the stop. This is the case whether the gun is eased shut or closed "smartly."
Well I have never had a gun with this Helice system to study. There is very obviously "NO Comparison" to any of the three I mentioned. Two of these as I stated have absolutely no adjustment for wear built in. The lever on these simply comes to a stop when it reaches the center position with the bolts engaged but not hitting a stop or taper on their own.
The third one, the Lefever, is an early pivot lever gun. This gun uses a vertical rocking bolt which engages a notch in the square shouldered Doll's Head from the rear. A screw through the top tang in front of the lever bears on the top of this bolt. Tightening it presses the bolt down thus taking up wear. The lever is closed by a spring operating on the bolt itself & the bolt is stopped in its forward motion by the lever coming to its stop. It was not made, nor ever intended, as were neither of the other two to stop short of the center position.
I'm not really stating anything just yet, just composing posted info. Seems to be confusion as is it adjustable, is it not; if worn where would the toplever rest, etc. But for sure I would not attach much weight to the verbiage in the adverts. I have not seen any empirical data on the Helice, Helicobloc, etc. but as far as I know there is no gun that does not shoot loose. And the French are no exception. Outside of that, I'm just not sure for now.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
But not unusual for gunmakers to advertise that their guns never shoot loose--even if it's only advertising. For example, an ad for the Hunter Special in the 1940 Shooter's Bible: the gun has a "rotary bolt giving assurance against shooting loose." V-C was at least honest enough to note that it MIGHT happen . . . albeit rarely.
Raimey - here is another French double with a "Gripp Helico" and a top lever stop. Notice there is a bit of gap between the lever and the stop:
There are some more pics at
MaisonnialInteresting sideplated boxlock, very nicely engraved and someone obviously put a lot of effort into disguising it as a sidelock - at some point, you have to wonder if it would have been easier just to build a sidelock?
Yeah, I need to get back to this theme and now we know that V-C admitted the truth at least once. I'd really like to see the backside of the locks/sideplates of the A. Maisonnial - Royal Super Steel - Acier Superieur Triple Epreuve - Special Pour Pyroxylee. With that verbiage, I'm curious if the flats wear the imported tube stamp?
I think this to be a V-C with Acier Diamant on the flats with the imported tube stamp?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
That's not an "imported tube" stamp, that's a "proved in the finished state" stamp.
The Manufacture d'armes et cycles de St Etienne used it all the time and they certainly were making their own tubes.
This stamp was used to denote the fact that there had been no provisional proof of the tubes. The maker was confident enough that the tubes were OK and finished the gun without provisional tests. It was all OK with the proof house as long as the gun passed the final proof. If the gun did blow up, money would have been wasted, but that's not a problem for the proof house. Companies with tight quality control and good processes don't need provisional proofing.
There is no such thing as an "imported tube" stamp at least in France.
There are stamps such as AE palm, AR. ETR. or ARME ETRANGERE, which are stamped on foreign weapons.
Granted, if tubes had been imported, the gun could have borne a "proved finished" stamp. However, that's not automatic, far from it. Besides, Belgian tubes would have been proved in Belgium anyways.
Best regards,
WC-
Woops . . . grasping at yet another broken straw, Raimey??
As a matter of fact, in my mind it would be far more likely that a company doing their own tubes would be choosing that option.
Otherwise, you would want to have an official test done on them before spending money on assembling, fitting, finishing etc.
Best regards,
WC-
WC, Brown, I think y'all are somewhat mislead. The fad of proofing each tube passed when confidence was found in the integrity of the steel. I agree it is an in the final state stamp but when you consider the steel type, Acier Diamant a trademark of L-C, I say it was purchased in the white from L-C and either the Liege marks not applied or worked off. I will admit that it is possible for an inland in the final state proof is possibly, but if more fits importing sporting weapons in the white and going for the full Monte. Show me a St. Etienne concern that had protection for the term Acier Diamant?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
"Acier Diamant" has always been a V-C marking, how the heck does Lebeau come in the picture?
L-C had "de Wahlreyne", "Metal Vant Horn" and "Leugrann" but Diamant??? Really???
And even if L-C had the trademark in Belgium, it would have been useless/not recognized in France, anyways...
WC-
I've seen "acier diamant" on French guns other than from V-C. I always thought of it as basically a generic term, perhaps indicating a step up in the quality of the steel from whatever the basic grade was. Or maybe not. Unless the steel is marked with the name of the source, like Whitworth, I've never placed a lot of stock in whether it's called "superieur", "diamant", etc.
What a dummy !
"S H et Cie" is of course "Societe Heurtier et Compagnie", the famous St Etienne Barrel maker.
WC-
I say it was purchased in the white from L-C .
.....
Show me a St. Etienne concern that had protection for the term Acier Diamant?
Wow Raimey, you don't have an ounce of a beginning of a proof that these tubes were imported from L-C. Why not from Tula Arsenal in Russia or Japan from that matter???
I actually looked for a VC "Diamant" trademark and could not find one. Either it was never granted or never applied for or lost somewhere. That certainly does not mean anything. Many companies use brand names that they don't bother or fail to register.
Best regards,
WC-
The 1922 V-C catalog has 13 pages dedicated to their gun barrels, including an extensive discussion of the four steel grades they used. "Acier Diamant" is used for all four grades (in increasing order):
Acier Diamant
Acier Diamant/Acier Jacob Holtzer
Acier Diamant/Acier Jacob Holtzer (Qualite Superieure)
Acier Diamant/Acier Jacob Holtzer Trempe.
The only mention I can find in the catalog that seems to discuss Acier Diament's significance directly is the following (and you are on your own for translation!):
Les aciers au creuset que nous employons depuis longtemps et que nous designons sous la denomination d'<<Acier Diamant>> donnent a resistance egale par millimetre des allongements, des resilences et des limites elastique bien superieures aux aciers Martin et electriques.
"Acier diamant" was not the only type of steel used by V-C. The first V-C I ever owned was an Helice 33 No. 3. V-C was kind enough to send me pages from their 1934 catalog, which was when the No. 3 was introduced. It was a higher grade gun than the Helice 33's Nos 1 & 2, which were introduced in 1933. While the No. 2 also uses acier diamant, the basic gun--Helice 33 No. 1--had barrels of "acier tres fin comprime 'Verney-Carron'". Probably some sort of cheap Belgian steel.
Helistop anyone?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
"Helistop" is not one of the registered trademarks shown in the 1922 V-C catalog (must've come along later), although Vercar is.
Any chance they were also modells' like:
PIONNIER
HELISTOP
HELICOBLOC
????
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The other trademarks listed in the 1922 catalog are Helicobloc, Helice Grip, Colonial, Vercar, and a stylized VC. They were touting the "Helice Grip" system in particular in that catalog, which included a very interesting and unique advertisement featuring WWI's surviving ace of aces (75 kills), Captain Rene Fonck. Who told readers that with his Helice Grip . . . "the birds fall like Krauts!"
I hate to jump into this thread but I was reading through trying to gain some more knowledge about a V-C that I just put on layaway... and wouldn't you know, Raimey just posted a picture of the V-C 16 gauge Helistop that I just put on layaway!!!
So here's what I know about it. Someone directed me to the 1939 V-C catalogue (I will post a link) and sent me to page 25, where there happens to be a drawing identical to the helistop I just purchased. I don't pretend to know any French but it seems that in 1939 there were 5 models of sxs offered. PIONNIER - HELISTOP - HELICOBLOC - and then a sideplate version HELICOBLOC and HELIDUPLEX. All of which come with a variety of options.
I have no background in French whatsoever. maybe this catalogue can add to the current discussion but I wouldn't mind someone telling me anything they could about the HELISTOP pictured above as well.
http://www.verney-carron.com/pdf/catalogue-1939-FR-Verney-Carron.pdf
Jump in anytime. Was it the one pictured above on this page? Also skeettx has one with a somewhat hidden stop when closed:
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=396576&page=4Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey
Yes it is the one pictured above on this page. I put it on layaway at Cabelas so I could do some research before I plunged headfirst into a gun I didn't know much about. However after reading this post I think ill run right back out there to pick it up this weekend. For being 6 1/4 pounds and pre-WWII its tight and closes (as doverham put it) with a sound like an 8 lb perazzi. I was also very impressed with the slim lines of the gun. It seems very well made, and the stop is quite interesting (although the hidden stop is moreso)
here is the link to Cabelas ad for the gun
Verney Carron Helistop - Cabelas
Helistop anyone?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
HELICE-GRIP is nothing but a commercial name of V-C action (patent No 577296 of 1924).
http://www.medwed-hunt.ru/MedwedPosts.aspx?pid=2996251+2+3+HELICE-GRIP = HELICOBLOC
2+3+HELICE-GRIP = HELISTOP
3+HELICE-GRIP = HELIDUPLEX
Regards,
Igor
www.shotguncollector.com
Many thanks Robertovich for the effort. Allow me a bit of time to digest the combinations. Have you additional information on the "stop" itself?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Many thanks Robert for the effort. Allow me a bit of time to digest the combinations. Have you additional information on the "stop" itself?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Dear Raimey, my name is Igor
www.shotguncollector.com
I well know your name but was in a rush just forgot to add the ovich to Robert. Amendment made, pardon the faux pas.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
What was that nasty-gramm/letter you note from/to Sergei in the Helice post?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
What was that nasty-gramm/letter you note from/to Sergei in the Helice post?
rse
Sergey from Kiev wrote me a letter about V-K patent. I hope you understand my answer to him.
Raimey
Yes it is the one pictured above on this page. I put it on layaway at Cabelas so I could do some research before I plunged headfirst into a gun I didn't know much about. However after reading this post I think ill run right back out there to pick it up this weekend. For being 6 1/4 pounds and pre-WWII its tight and closes (as doverham put it) with a sound like an 8 lb perazzi. I was also very impressed with the slim lines of the gun. It seems very well made, and the stop is quite interesting (although the hidden stop is moreso)
here is the link to Cabelas ad for the gun
Verney Carron Helistop - Cabelas Nice looking gun, JJ. The long barrels on a French 16 are somewhat unusual. My first V-C, many years ago, was an "Helice 33", No. 3 grade--per the information V-C sent me from their 1934 catalog. Almost identical engraving to yours. The Helice 33 was a new model (introduced in 1933, as the name would indicate) which featured coil mainsprings. the No. 3 grade featured diamond steel barrels and the nice engraving similar to yours. (The standard 33 was basically plain, without engraving, and had "very fine" barrel steel.) Introduced in both 12ga and 16ga. Listed weight of the 16ga was 2kg750-2kg850. Pretty light. Enjoy your V-C.
L. Brown
Thanks for the compliment. May I ask why you say that long tubes are a French 16 are unusual? I thought 16's typically had longer barrels than 12's did? Just a curiosity
They're unusual because they did not make many. Pretty sure you'll find that most French 16's are 28" (or metric equivalent) or less. I'd say you're about as likely to find a short 16, less than 26", likely made for woodcock with one barrel having dispersion rifling, than you are a French 16 with 30" tubes. I've owned a bunch of French 16's (need to count one of these days), never any that long--and I wouldn't have rejected one out of hand just because of long barrels.
Interesting.. The short barrels for woodcock make sense I suppose. The long barrels definitely wont change my mind on the gun. It balances and swings beautifully. This will be my first French gun (I've struggled to escape the Belgian browning world) and this forum is greatly assisting in the expansion of my French Firearm knowledge. For that I thank you all.
Welcome to the French "countryside", JJ. You might get a little ribbing here and there, but it is a lovely journey down a path less travelled.
Mike
Maybe a Pigeon Modell 639??
Count Hallquist???? of 1907
Verney - Carron Fres
VCF in a cipher
Acier Diamant
Btes S.D.G.D.
Acier Mandrine
Canon Plume
12437
Fon Btee S.D.G.D.
Didier Drevet
MI-BLOC
Previous thread on Acier Mandrine:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=396092&page=allKind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Nice gun! The fact none of the screws are tight or timed correctly is a bit concerning though. Looks to be missing either a spring or pin under the top lever as well.
True, looks buggered & they are asking a war pension. I've misplaced the link.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Interesting gun. That engraving pattern is similar to the pattern shown in later catalogs for their sidelocks. Curious to know what MI-bloc means - proto-Helicobloc maybe? I would love to be able to see the lock configurations as they appear to be different from the standard H&H. Pattern.
$16k? That is a bit ambitious even ignoring the apparent mechanical issues.
You don't see many VC sidelocks. Barnett had a nice one years ago. Kept thinking about taking a run at it. Not quite as elaborate as this one, but much better condition. Sat on his list for a long time at about $6,0000, if I recall correctly.
Nicest French gun I ever owned was a Drevet-marked sideplated boxlock 16.
Tubeset possibly knitted on V-C's chopperlump variant?:
Canvasback:
I'm going to hazard a guess the MI Bloc is MODE Intégralbloc.
c'est le demi-bloc intégral ou intégralbloc
http://gravure.blog.fr/2011/03/28/la-fabrication-des-canons-a-saint-etienne-suite-10904999/The pin configuration points to a back action sidelock variant. What is odd is the issued serial number.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I don't see a seam on the top rib, so I would guess it is not an
integral demi bloc. But yes, it is a back action.
One thing which is interesting, is that it is helping me date the change over between cm and mm chamber lengths.
This gun is dated 1907, and has cm chamber length ("7").
So I guess the change over to mm was later than that.
This used to be a great gun, but it's well past its prime.
Of course, the seller is out to lunch with the Habsburg provenance.
I bet the LOP is very short too.
Overall, it's at least 3 times the proper pricing and maybe more ("deep pitting in throat").
I think that 98 is the serial number.
Some French companies ( such as Manufrance) reset the SN sequence for each model.
I guess VC did it as well.
Note the (now quite worn out) border in the stock around the sidelock. That's typical for VC..
best regards,
WC-
This one seems to be in better condition:
http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...313&image=1Kind regards,
Gunwolf
The photo showing the H and crown also shows that the lock plates are way proud of the wood. Maybe due to the missing pin/screw, but a definite concern.
This is not a V-C for sure but I was curious if the Galloping Bovine or some other French linguist(maybe English as a 2nd language) could enlighten us a bit:
The phrase being:
CHANGE D'EPREUVE FUSIL FINI
CHARGE NORMALE
CANON FRETTE FABRICATION MECANIQUE
ACIER
And is the paring of all the terms correct?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Proof charge for a finished firearm. Normal charge (load). (That would be the service load.) Canon frette is the system used by Manufrance in particular (and some other French gunmakers) which is much like monobloc, or sleeving but with a brand new gun. Those who've seen older Manufrance Robusts will doubtless have noticed the very visible "step" (rather than a smooth joint) where the barrels fit into the monobloc.
Choked mod and full. ("Choke", when used alone in French, means full.) Proofed with powder T (which has been the only one used for French proof for about 100 years).
The French all lines up quite well, far as I can tell.
You can find a good explanation here (in french):
http://gravure.blog.fr/2011/03/28/la-fabrication-des-canons-a-saint-etienne-suite-10904999/"Le canon fretté ou industrialisé"
Cheers,
Gunwolf
This is a 12 Gauge Grade 1 Robust, i.e. the lowest grade. It is I would say dating circa 1920s.
It was of course made by "Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de St-Etienne", much later known as Manufrance.
Here are the markings:
Charge d'epreuve fusil fini
proof load, finished gun: T powder 3.46grams 36 grams of shot (~1 1/4 oz)
Charge normale
Service load: T powder 2.2grams, 32 grams of shot (~1 1/8 oz)
Acier : Steel (e.g. not damascus)
Choke perfectionne: Improved choke (in the sense of better, not the choke opening). The right is 1/2 choke, the left is full choke.
Fabrication mecanique: tooled manufacturing, not done by hand
Canon frette: sleeved tubes
Hope this helps...
Crazy Bull
WC, the fretted barrel process is like sleeving, but probably best to separate it from that term. We think of sleeving as cutting off old barrels and fitting new ones. The fretting process starts out that way with completely new guns. Gough Thomas has very positive comments about the system in his "Gun Book". p. 102.
It spells CHANGE d'epreuve fusil fini, i.e. "changé"
In my opinion it means "changed", because since the "Convention Internationale Permanente du 15 juillet 19141914" confirmed in 1926, the finished gun (not only the barrels, as before) has to be proofed.
Source:
http://www.forez-info.com/encyclopedie/h...nt-etienne.html...."De ces travaux est issue la Convention Internationale Permanente du 15 juillet 1914, pour la reconnaissance réciproque des poinçons d'épreuve des armes à feu. Cette convention, ratifiée par la France le 14 mai 1926, dispense les armes revêtues des poinçons d'épreuve stéphanois de subir, de nouveau, des épreuves similaires dans les pays où elles sont exportées et adhérant à la CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente des armes à feu portatives). Elle oblige aussi à faire précéder l'épreuve de l'arme finie (mécanismes inclus) de l'épreuve des canons. Pendant longtemps en effet, et malgré les demandes des professionnels, l'épreuve ne concerna que le canon, sans tenir compte des évolutions techniques."....
Kind Regards,
Gunwolf
Gunwolf, with all due respect, it is a "CHARGE". The top of the R is just mis-stamped.
During that time frame "La Manufacture" was always stamping the proof load on the barrel flats. I have seen that mark many, many times.
I am sure you can find many more examples on the web.
Here is
one for instance, with a very clear "charge".
Many people were reloading their shells and they wanted to make sure that no one exceeded the proof load.
The proof mark is indeed for the finished gun.
I don't see a provisional proof mark, but those are normally on the tubes.
As far as I know, while it is indeed mandatory to have a finished gun proof, it is not normally necessary to have a provisional proof, it is only optional. There is a special proof mark for that (crossed lightnings). I have had at least 2 guns with that mark and no provisional tube proof mark.
Makers buying tubes from the trade normally asked for provisional proofs, but makers like La Manu did not as they controlled the entire process and were confident it was a waste of time and money.
Of course this could have changed over the years. I don't have an exact time frame for my statement.
best regards,
Betail sauvage
WildCattle, sorry, of course you are right with the CHARGEI have to look more careful next time...
Gunwolf
Looks like Raimey also misread "charge" in his earlier post.
Hi from Russia!
what year is the gun? Who is the manufacturer of the gun?
The gun has historical value? What real price for today?
Best regarda, Mikle
photo
http://s558.photobucket.com/user/RayKonnen1975/library/?view=recent&page=1
This gun is a standard 16 Gauge boxlock dating ~1900-1910 due to the cartridge length being stamped in cm (6.5) rather than in mm.
The bottom plate writing traces it to a successor to an offshoot of the V-C family rather than the main V-C concern.
US value would be on the low side e.g. well below $1000.
No real historical value, I am afraid.
The gun was confiscated by the Germans during WWII and reproved in 1941 in Suhl. Then it was probably "liberated" by the Red Army.
This is very common actually.
Best regards,
WC-
P.S> the cast-off amount seems quite large!
May we have additional images of the trademarks/touchmarks on the flats?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Iteresting topic.
But strange to see here with really intersting things this spicks re. leberated .
Please be more politicaly correct , dear Mr.WildCattle.
My $.02: Not sure I see Verney-Carron anywhere but could be wrong. It looks like it might be an "Artisanal Saint-Etienne" gun:
-- Chamber In cm = 1889-1912;
-- Proofed for PT (very faint) = post 1900.
-- The name in an arc on the bottom plate around the trigger guard will be the retailer who ordered it/marketed it.
Please post pictures of the topside and underside of the barrels and barrel flats - there might be a barrel maker's mark there. Also what is the name of the retailer?
Grigoriy: If "liberated" doesn't sound right, just call it a "war trophy.." Actually the fact the Germans took it and reproofed it...then it went to Russia...might have saved it from the fate of so many French guns which were buried...dug up 5 years later and were utterly rusted and pitted.
(And mon cher Gregory: the problem with being "liberated" by the Red Army was that in its wake a totalitarian system was imposed on the beneficiaries courtesy of Josef Stalin, which was...shall we say politely...deleterious to the economic, social, cultural and political health of the countries which were "freed." Not trying to be political - just real.)
once again now to mon amie Argo44 - it is not so easy to you to get an impression about freedom - you look from country get a money during WWII and territory far away from theater of main battles of this war and you had not this problems in centuaries at you territory as we had that moment . As Germans as Russians specially . Were members of your family blocked at Leningrad , were at Nazy concenration camps as we had here ? My impression that you look to us as Big Brother .Just you had improvment and here everithng was wrong .So please keep your spikes take off . Let's talk about guns and it is really issue of this forum .
