Greetings all,

I have a greener boxlock circa 1897, 12ga. 2 1/2" chambers, with either laminate or best figured 30" damascus barrels. Bores measure R.734" & L.735" and min. walls .027" in each except one thin spot 8" from muzzles on L outside which is .016" (probably a dent removed). Black powder proof with no re-proof.
Would you shoot modern nitro factory 2 1/2" shotshells out of it? Perhaps Gamebore F2's or B&P High pheasant? If not, what would you reccomend as the maximum pressure for nitro handloads?
My understanding is that these barrels should be in every way equal to or perhaps even superior to any fluid steel barrels from the same time period. I just need someone to agree or let me know I'm out to lunch! Thanks for any advice.

I personally think the Gamebores and for sure the B&P High Pheasant are too stiff for the old damascus...........just my opinion....other opinions around here will differ......

Light hand loads are best for any damascus IMO.....7,000 PSI or less IMO......especially with the wall thickness you mentioned.....

Damascus & Twist wrapped barrels all have SEAMS....Fluid Steel Barrels DO NOT.....there lies the difference mate, especially with age and any previous owners "handy-work" figured into the equation..........

The only references I have found for pressures indicate a 12ga from the blackpowder era probably didn't exceed 8000psi. Unfortunately, it is hard to say how they were measuring pressure then, probably with LUP. If I were certain my damascus barrels were sound, and could get a pressure value for the ammo you are citing indicating it is less than 8000psi I would likely shoot it. If you handload the pressures can be brought well below 8000psi. It is the pressure and the weight of the shot charges which have changed over the years. You could also submit it for Nitro Proof.

Thanks for your thoughts. To the best of my knowledge, the bores are original and could have been nitro proved (if so ordered) at the time they were made. I have data for loads around 8000 PSI but I'm having trouble locating recipies for loads less than that which do not require exotic components. Any suggestions?
Those photos certainly are concerning...

Lot of ifs here.

The bores are larger than 12 gauge, and may have been honed, any pitting?
.027 minimum wall thickness isn't bad, but you're talking nitro shells.
.016 is bad, although the location could be a lot worse.

Sounds like a nice gun, I wouldn't risk it. Might shoot black powder loads in it though.

Once you get used to cleaning it not such bad stuff.

Blue:
Try 16 grs. of Clays, 7/8 oz. of No. 6 and any one-piece wad designed for 7/8 oz. loads. Primer of your choice in a AA or STS hull.

Shot this for years. Easy on the gun and kills birds like a death ray. No worry in any reasonable Damascus barrel.

Why not just shoot black? End of concerns. In a smoothbore breech loader it probably cleans easier than nitro and in 2 1/2 in. cases you won't be giving up anything in performance.

Here are 2 sources:

The Lyman data is for a muzzle loader.




I would want a bore scope to see that thin spot. Make sure some fool did hone it.

Pete

IMR powders;PB and 7625 offer a wide range of very low pressure loads. I've been shooting them for years and they beat cleaning blk powder gunk out of your gun.

Great info. Thanks to all that have responded. I don't have the gun here to check the bores for the original proof size but will try to find out.
Pete- What would you be looking for at the thin spot? I understand that it is about an inch or so long in a isolated spot on the left side of the left bore.

I had never even considered using black powder loads. I have done a fair amount of reloading with nitro, including PB, Longshot, Int. Clays. All of the loads being at 8000PSI or less. Forgive my ignorance but can you handload black powder in modern cases? There is no chance, near as I can tell, in finding commercial black powder loads in Canada. Commercial nitro loads in 2.5" are hard enough.

Blue Grouse....for your reference:

Damascus circa 1890's......



There are lot's of smokeless loads out there if you do a little homework...all below 7,000 PSI....with readily available modern components......like the load Kensal mentioned above.....

Yes, you can load Black in modern hulls......several companies in the U.S. sell loaded BP shot shells.......

To load BP yourself, you need special powder handling equipment, as any friction created sparks will ignite BP....again, suggest a little homework before you attempt loading BP if you are not familiar with it.........

Doug,
Great diagram!
I have found many loads as you describe on the Hodgedon website, Even some below 5000PSI but they are all 2.75". Are you thinking that these longer shells are the way to go in the shorter chambers or am I missing something?

Blue Grouse,
First you can load black powder in modern plastic hulls. The heat of black powder will melt the inside of the hull a bit so only use them once. so use those cheapies from the trap or skeet range nobody wants. Second, do not use a plastic wad with black as it will melt the wad and make plastic deposits on the bore you will not like. Black powder is not hard to hand load. Here is how. Run your hull through the sizing die and primer seating die on your press. Then pull the hull aside and put in your volume measured black powder (you can make up a little plastic or brass scoop for this to throw the size charge you want) insert the over powder wads, press them into place with a piece of dowel and put the shell back in the press for the shot drop. Now comes a different crimp. Cut away most of the star crimp back to the rolled edge of the crimp almost. Actually this is the first operation before starting the loading. Place an over shot card on top of the shot. Adjust the crimp punch a little deeper than normal and crimp the shell so it looks like a roll crimped hull. While loading make sure to limit the amount of black powder in the container you are scooping from and take the same precautions necessary for smokeless powder safety. The finished hull will fit your 2 1/2" chamber and because you have removed the star crimp material it will be very close to a 2 1/2" hull after firing. The roll style crimp will also drop your pressure by a couple hundred more PSI.

The biggest safety issue is getting spilled black powder in the press mechanism where it can be crushed, igniting it and any other open powder in the vicinity. That is why I remove the hull to the side to load powder and get the overpowder wads seated before returning the hull to the press. Make sure there is no powder clinging to the exterior of the hulls.

There is something of a split on which granulation is correct. Most written material says FFg best, but most shooters I know use FFFg for performance. You can try both on your own. This isn't difficult reloading. The old time market hunters loaded hundreds of rounds by hand without mechanical presses using wooden hand tools and a roll crimper.

Blue Grouse:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/2486

Load up 2.5" new hulls using the loading data as a "guideline" for your "low pressure smokeless" damascus loads........

Work up your own loads....not rocket science...just keep pressures low and find what works best in the gun you have.....

I load 2.5" in 12,16 and 20....and shoot them in old and new guns.......once you get the proper pet load that you like, you're in business..........

Good Luck....

O.K. just so I get this straight - I should use the data for low pressure 2.75" loads and adapt them to 2.5" hulls? If so, I assume I will need to try a few to get the right fit.
I have one load that I currently use with Fed. Gold Medal hulls, cut down to 2.5" and star crimped in my sizemaster (with the short shell adapter) and the fit is O.K. but not perfect, they run at about 8200PSI.
Should I try some of the low pressure loads for 2.75" in the cut down 2.5" hulls and see what fits? Of course, all data for the Gold Medal hulls.
Thanks for the time and wisdom!

Blue,

I posted the black powder info to show pressures, not suggesting you need to shoot only black powder. I shoot my damascus guns all the time with modern loads at low pressure.

To answer your question, I would look for tool marks at the thin point. Greener most likely did not make it that thin. I would try to understand.

Pete

i would not worry about the BP Proofs, just use low pressure loads such as Justin mentions with Pb and 7625. The BP proofs means they were PROOFED and the proofs I believe were about 12-13000 psi

I once bought a couple of flats of Italian 2 1/2 12 ga No 71/2 shot for grouse, to be used in a modern Wm Evans (1927) BLE
Paper case, marked RC, Professional Game, 65mm. The boxes were marked "CIP", so I assume the pressure was in conformance with the rules of the CIP.
Anyway, these cartridges produced so much recoil I could not shoot them in the Evans and used them up in a Remington 1100 for sporting clays, and in that gun the empties were thrown a long way.
So just because a factory cartridge is marked 65mm, or 2 1/2" it does not mean it is low pressure as some people think.
I have an Alex Thomson 12 ga bar action Jones underlever from around 1870, with apparently sound Damascus barrels and I shoot 3/4 oz loads of No 8 shot with a light load of Green Dot and a WAA 12 wad in a paper Federal Gold Medal case cut down, roll crimped, for a loaded length of 2 1/4". Cute.
Gold 40 has recipes for 7625 (?) he uses in his older guns. I do not subscribe to using 2 3/4" hulls in 2 1/2" chambers whatever Sherman Bell said.
I use Green Dot because that is what I have on hand.

I confess to a preference for black powder but I shoot mostly older, original firearms, such as yours, that were originally used with BP, such as yours. You can clean the BP "gunk" from your smoothbore with 3-5 patches. That's just the way it is.

If you want the ultimate in simplicity just purchase a box of 2 1/2 brass hulls from one of several sources, Buffalo Arms is one, and you have a lifetime supply. You will need 11 ga. wads most likely and the only special tools you will need are a decapping punch, easily made from one of those little screwdrivers often given away as advertisement, and a dowel of large enough size to fit loosely in the hull. For seating the large pistol primers those hulls require the same dowel, something hard to place the primer on, (I use a scrap of our granite counter top), and a small hammer are all that's needed.

To load, the charge in drams is easily found out and a dram is 27.5 grains. Figure out your powder charge, dump it, (I do use Ffg, it patterns better in my guns), insert the hard over powder card, the felt cushion wad and I use another hard overpowder card on top of that. Dump your shot charge and insert over shot card. In the old days they used watergalss to hold the overshot card in place and it is still available. I have learned that Duco cement works just as good and is easier to come by and work with. Glue the overshot card in and you're done. If the load doesn't come up to the top of the hull, so what. Doesn't hurt a thing. For clean up I drop my hulls in a container of hot water, slosh them around a bit, repeat, let dry and throw in the tumbler just as you would your rifle or handgun cases.

A little experimenting may need to be done to find the load your double likes but that's part of the fun. It took me 3 loads for my German combination gun. If you have a sense of history I believe you will enjoy it. If not, find the nitro load, they are out there as others have shown.

Doug;

Interesting two photos of what appears to be the classic barrel obstruction by a shell of a lower gauge, especially since there does not appear to be any old stress crack corrosion illustrated in the clean breaks of the chamber walls of the barrel. I have seen identical type of eruption on fluid steel barrels when there has be say a 20 gauge shell in front of a 12 gauge shell in the chamber when the gun was fired.

Was the firearm illustrated in the photo yours and what was the cause of the eruption? Were you hurt?

Regards;
Bv

BV....

Not my gun....old stock photo's...but this Baker did belong to a member here.......the shooter's hand was injured as I remember.....gun was shot about ten times then switched shooter's as I recall and burst with the first shot as the second shooter fired the gun.......

As memory serves, the chambers had been lengthened poorly with numerous tool marks left un-polished.....?.....

This Baker was discussed on several lengthy threads here, I do not think any conclusive reason for the burst was ever given....?....As you can see the forcing cone area wall thickness is very minimal.......

Good example of why metal "should never" be ground out of any gun barrel ........guns with butchered barrels should be wall hangers ......

Others will probably chime in here about this Baker....I think PeteM originally posted the photo's....?.......

Great example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

BG,
Take a look at data for Hodgden Clays with 1 oz of shot. I found a combination that worked out well for me that is around 7000 psi using Federal papers and Fed wads. The pressures seem very consistant even in cold weather where some of the other really slow powders get really weak burning.

There are several things of interest in this thread. One thing I would like to make very Clear though is there is a lot more involved in getting the shot load from a standing position in the shell, out of the muzzle with useful velocity than just the max or peak pressure. In Fact Max pressure has Absolutely "NOTHING" at all to do with that thin spot 22" down the bbl (30"-8").
Look at those 4 pressure curves recorded by DuPont back in the early 1920s. Note that those curves all swap places at around 2½"-2 3/4" from the breech. Beyond there the lowest pressure curve becomes the highest one etc. Though these curves are only carried to 10" it is seen that by this point they are all close together. The biggest gap her is the "Higher" pressure at this point of the shell bearing an "Underload" of a Slow Burning Progressive Powder". Those of who tout your very low pressures using an underloaded slow powder might well bear to keep this in mind.
Another point of extreme interest is the vast difference in pressires recorded by DuPont at that time between those in the 2001 Lyman data reported. I do not currently have an explanation for those differences. It is noted that DuPont used 3F powder while Lyman reports with GOEX powder used 2F. For the nearest load comparsion though Lyman used 90 grains (3¼+ drams) while Dupont used 82 grains (3 drams). DuPont did not stated their velocity but a 3-1¼ load shouls fall in the 1150-1175 fps range. Lyman reported 1100 fps vel. Max pressure listed by DuPont was 9,000 psi, that by Lyman was 5,100? (perhaps LUP). Could the difference in 3f vs 2f, PE vs LUP & perhaps a higher quality powder in the 20s result in a 3,900 difference in max pressure, I am just not sure.
While true, the bbl really doesn't know or care if the pressure upon it comes from BP or Smokeless there is one major difference between the two. That is their abilities to burn. Black powder will burn about as well unconfined as under pressure. You can thus load BP down to as light as you like withoput fear of a squib. One needs to keep in mind that the slow progressive powders were designed "NOT" for low pressures, but for pushing heavier loads of shot or acheiving higher velocities (Or Both). They acheive this ability by being made Harder to ignite, which when loaded to pressures below their design rate can (& often Does) result in inefficient burniong, even to the point of an ineffictive load or a wad left in the bore, something to keep in mind particularly if you try to use them in colder weather.

Miller,

Thank you for your comments and I do understand where you are coming from. There is a ton of information to wade through on this topic and I have been eagerly reading the data from Hodgedon trying to figure out what a decent recipe might look like. The variables are staggering and I'm trying to stick with what I have experience using. The faster burning powders will yield about 7000PSI while the slower burning powders can get lower than 5000PSI. I may try some loads with IMR PB which is number 25 in a list of 134 common powders available according to the Lyman 5th ed. reloading book (burn rate fastest to slowest).
My initial inclination was that the thin spot should be of no concern 22" down the bore with the exception of the susceptibility to dents.

Interesting discussion. Re the Dupont chart, although the loads in question do indeed swap positions in terms of highest pressure vs lowest, they're actually becoming closer rather than farther apart at the end of the chart. Of course that stops short of any weak point 20" or more down the barrel, but the difference is so small--looks to be only 2-300 psi between the BP load and the highest pressure smokeless load--that it seems to me, unless the curves start moving apart again, it would not be a matter for concern.

Bell did similar tests in one of his "Finding Out For Myself" series in Double Gun Journal. Once again, very little difference in the pressure curve between modern smokeless loads and black--although he also stopped short of showing what happens beyond the 12" mark. However, at that point on his charts, it does not appear that the difference between the loads was increasing; no indication that the modern loads were going to be more problematic farther down the barrel than the BP loads.

Larry & all;
I have never seen anything to indicate that any major changes would occur to the pressure curve beyond that 10"-12" point. A careful study of the DuPont chart shows the two places of greatest difference between the curves occur first within the chamber at the 1"-1.5" point, folllowed by a point around 4" down where the curves are well reversed, IE the Low pressure load is now the high pressure one & vice-versa. My thinking here is the curves will maintain there relative positions from the 10" point to the muzzzle with a continuing decline to a pressure somewhat below half of what they show there. I would not expect another reversal. It is also noted the curves are very close together by this point. That thin spot @ 22" down the bbl is not really going to know, or Care, which load was fired through it, though what slight difference there may be will at this point favor the faster powder which started with the highest pressure.
In accessing loads it "MUST" always be borne in mind it takes a given amount of work to get a given load of shot to a given velocity. If you push a given amount of shot out the bbl at the same velocity then the total pressure area beneath the curve is going to be essnetially the same.
The only way to reduce the total impact on the gun is to load a lighter shot charge, A slower velocity or both. For most of my use I need no more tan an ounce of shot & never load it in excess of 1200 fps, usually a bit less. I then prefer to use a powder which gives a peak pressure within the 7K-8K range. This puts that pressure peak Right under the thick chamber walls where the gun was designed to take it. I then don't have to worry much if I'm shooting on a hot sweltering day or shivering from the cold I can expect reasonable performance under either condition.

Stay in that 5,000 -7,000 zone and you will be OK, provided the gun is sound.

Check out Hodgdon reloading online
http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp

Pete

Hello, Blue Grouse. I have Sherman Bell's spreadsheets for 12 ga loads 1 1/8 and 1 oz with pressures starting at 4300 psi. I have supplied it various times over the years to members of this BBS, and I use loads in the 6000 psi range for my damascus Rem 1889 shotgun in local competition for older SxS shotguns. If you send me your email address, I will send both spreadsheets as attachments.

Jim Haynes
jhaynes@earthlink.net

If you want to load BP use paper wads from www.circlefly.com - plastic wads will melt in the barrel and be bad to clean. For 10 years or so I've used a Mec [ 600jr, 650, or Grabber ] to load BP. Don't understand how you get a spark with a aluminum charge bar - anyways, I've never had a problem. A 46A bushing will throw 75grs. Cut one in half and get 84grs, or no bushing and get 95 grains. I've been shooting 10 or so damascus guns for about 10 years with both smoke and smokeless. For nitro I've kept my loads around 5500 to 6500psi - there are many loads out there at 1150fps with 3/4oz to 1 oz. And I believe Sherman Bell proved there's not much pressure increase by useing 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" gun. If you're only at say 6000psi the pressure wouldn't go above 7000psi, if that. Good luck - Paul

You chaps on the other side of the pond must be very brave ! Never shoot nitro loads through a black powder proofed shotgun unless you have little use for your right and or left hand and maybe a part of your face. if you want to risk it, send it to a European proof house and get it Nitro proofed, best, Mike

Paul,

While I'm no chicken little, I don't use the MEC presses to actually throw the BP, preferring to dip and pour it from a separate container. The issue with using the MEC to load BP, in my understanding, arises not from the possibility of a spark forming from metal to metal contact, but from static electricity that builds up in the plastic bottles used to contain the powder and shot.

I have always seen flakes of smokeless clinging to the side of the bottle because of static electricity build up, more so during winter months, but somewhat year 'round. The possibility of a partially filled bottle of BP flashing off 20" from my face just keeps me erring on the side of caution.

All my best, Stan

Smokeless or Black, I always have my MEC grounded to a water pipe.
I find the operation much more consistent, especially in winter, when house humidity is low.

Does a 100 year old Damascus really need an excuse or justification when it blows apart ?

Yes. If unmessed with an in good condition, and shot with proper loads, there is no reason to expect it to happen.

This particular topic comes up at intervals. The photos above of the Baker had other photos with them. One, at least, was a pic of the shell head that exploded. The brass of that head showed severe deformation , even showing the extractor imbedded into the brass. All of that showed excessive pressure from an obstruction in the chamber, otherwise the brass head would have looked like the normal shell head after a shell had been successfully fired.

Here's those photo's Daryl.....I don't think the gun owner ever came up with a conclusive reason for the failure.....he did post several times after the incident as I remember..........but no conclusion........?...?...?....Of course there was the "overwhelming" normal speculation from this board on any number of reasons.......as you mentioned it became a popular topic as the years rolled on........

To me the throat just forward of the forcing cone area looks very thin walled and I would guess that is where it let go......?.....Double smokeless charge most likely IMO......?......

Mike Bailey is absolutely right. If you want to shoot nitro cartridges, then get the gun nitro proved.
Its as simple as that.
I have two Damascus guns, both in nitro proof and use them with suitable nitro loads regularly, but I wouldn't ever shoot a load without suitable proof. To do so is plain foolish in my view.

My goodness but that hull appears to have been subjected to incredibly high pressures! Look at the fire forming of the head and the cratering around the primer. Wow!

Just my take on using nitro in damascus guns: I shoot a lot of nitro in BP proofed guns and feel much safer for it. Properly loaded nitro is far gentler on these old guns with less stress on them. As far as proofing them is concerned most of them in America have been "proofed" thousands of times over their lifetime. What more could be learned by firing some insanely high pressured loads in them just to see how much they can stand? Heck, I think it's nuts to even consider stuffing high pressure factory loads in these wonderful relics of a past age. Use the gentler nitro and quit worrying about it.

I also fully agree with Mike, if you must shoot a BP proofed shotgun don't do it with Nitro Loads unless it has been reproofed by a certified Proof House. A home made overload is not the same.

Harry

Me thinks you fellows from across the pond have been brain washed when it comes to " proof ". Why would anyone think a gun needs reproofing if a fellow is going to shoot a nitro load of 5000 to 7000psi ? That is at or under a BP load. The gun doesn't know what kind of powder you're useing - only how much pressure it's subjected to. You see, over here our guns aren't " proof tested " for BP or nitro. The only test done were at the factory when they were built. Most Americans think damascus barrels are unsafe [ unlike you ] and won't shoot them. The only ones who will are people like on this forum and they all know what kind of shells to shoot in them - low pressure, because we don't have a proof house to send them to. I believe it's been said that if a gun blows up in the chamber it was from to high a pressure - if in the barrel it was from an obstruction. Even if the gun in the picture was proof tested it wouldn't have helped - someone got a real hot reload in it. JMHO

Stan, good point about static electricity - I'll ground my presses in the future and use one of those "static cling" thinges in the powder bottle just to be sure.

Well, one issue is insurance. I doubt insurance cover would be valid if a nitro cartridge was used in a gun without suitable proof.

I also believe it is more complex than peak pressure, and that rate of pressure rise can also be important.

I know that many BP proved guns will pass (and have passed) nitro, so they are sufficiently strong for the forces. But until that test is done, the risk (both of accident and lack of insurance cover) remains.

Bladesmith, we have had this conversation before. I think an enterprising chap with funds at his disposal could buy the necessary equipment and set up a voluntary USA proof house and for a fee of about $30 per gun would make a fortune and make guns like the ones we are discussing "in proof". I have an inkling though that lots of you chaps wouldn´t want to put your BP proofed fine old guns through nitro proof which I understand. If the barrels are good use them with black but John above is exactly right on the insurance front...in the UK or Europe if you fired a nitro cartridge though a non nitro proofed shotgun and injured yourself, well, that´s your bad luck. If you injure someone else you are certainly sued for an enormous amount (we learnt that from you chaps ) and would also go to prison

...and it wouldn't prove a thing.

I don't know why we go on like this except for responsibility to answer questions from less experienced members about the safety of using shells of a particular length in particular guns.

My guess is 99 per cent of members use/used shells of longer length in chambers, know the characteristics of nitro and blackpowder, and do not know a person who lost fingers or worse.

This isn't to down-rate caution and safe practises. Surely the board can provide a canned, short answer so the less experienced aren't burdened by well-intentioned information they don't need.

I don´t follow you Joe ?, best

I believe that Putting a vintage Damascus barrel though heavy proof puts unnecessary stress on it and only proves it held that time.

Truth is if you shoot vintage Damascus barreled guns you take your chances.....kinda like Russian roulette.

I will be shooting low pressure 2 1/4" 7/8oz loads with Green Dot powder in my English damascus barrelled guns, thank you.
I do not want my barrels subjected to the extreme strain of Proof House loads.
Was there not a big fuss recently about over-strength British proof loads destroying brand new Purdey barrels, Lagopus I think you reported on that? Who would compensate me if my irreplaceable 1870 barrels were ruined?
As an aside, a gunsmith here gave me a real cheap 1880s Belgian 12 double ga hammer gun, marked with a mythical English maker's name.
I wanted to burst the barrel as a demo for the 12-20 ga dilemma for Hunter Ed classes.
Five times I loaded a 20 ga shell in front of a 12 ga shell and fired it, all I got was a slight bulge ahead of the chamber.
With an accidentally 12/20 scenario, modern Brazilian single shot hammer gun, chamber split open and severely injured the arm of the shooter. Just my 2c anyway, I'm not asking you to shoot my Damascus guns and here in Canada I do not see how it could be an insurance issue.
Mike from Colchester

Mike, what's your recipe for the green dot load? I've been using 7625 and it's gotten way too expensive. Justin

It seems some of these arguments fly in the face of logic. I have a lovely old damascus barreled gun, not nitro proofed, that I intend to shoot low pressure loads in. So, I send it off to a proof house to have it subjected to very high pressures so that I am comfortable shooting low pressure loads? Like jOe says, proves nothing except subjecting the gun to undue stress...

Justin, I shoot 10 damascus guns three times a week [ not all 10- I rotate between them ] with nitro loads. In the past I've used 700X, PB, 7525, Promo, Solo 1000 & 1250. My friends use Clay Dot and I'm sure there are plenty of others that will give you loads under 7000psi. I'm not sure about 1 1/8 and heavier loads but in 1oz, 7/8, and 3/4 there are quite a few that work and are easy on the shoulder and wallet. Most early American doubles were quite a bit thicker in the barrels than English doubles. All of mine [ Parker and Remingtons ] weigh 8 lbs. and up. Maybe that's one reason we don't worry as much as some of you about being in proof.

I'll PM it to you tomorrow, Justin
Mike