In my 20 years of dealing with all sorts of gun work/smithing I have never been involved in a transaction so completely sub par. Series of deadlines missed, shipped back broken pieces, communication near zero, and close to a year out I still have nothing. All this for a Browning 425 butt stock. I am over being pissed and now just nonplussed.
if you have not talked to miss vicki, suggest you give her a call. she seems to make things happen around there.
Yup, they are a bunch of dishonest people with very sub-par work....actually they produce junk IMO........
Used them once, never again...threw their stock in the trash.....junk, absolutely junk........
I have dealt with them twice on some stocks that I had to do for people. Both times they brought me stocks from Macon and both times I was left picking up the pieces.
Have talked with Vicki more times then I care to count, April does not seem to be of much help either. Ineptitude is abound at the place.
Sorry to hear about your problems with them. I've heard a lot more bad than good about them.
I'd report them to the BBB, who knows that might get you some action.
Good luck!
Greg
I seldom take time to post here,but feel this is important to prevent someone from wasting money and time...
RUN Don't Walk as fast and as far away from Macon as you can....
I look back at my one little misadventure now with some humor when I tell the tale, and the money,?? well I can make it back.....
They are the original "one size (pattern) fits all " company, and as we all know that won't get it done when stocking Doubles....
Not wanting to hide behind any moniker I will gladly sign my name to this post and welcome a reply/rebuttal from anyone at Macon. They can recite their version,hopefully, in a somewhat more subdued tone than used toward me when I had the audacity to call them with a few "questions" regarding the Stock job on an Philadelphia Sterlingworth (a shooter,nothing more).
You see, I found it somewhat perplexing to receive my gun here at the shop completely disassembled, albeit with a new stock attached to the frame.
The discussion was really humerous when reviewed now.....
Oh yeah, we put the gun back together, and with considerable effort, (copious quantities of AcraGlas) made it function...
I gave it to a friend who puts it to work as a Rough/Waterfowler.....
Best Regards,
Paul Melton
Yup. I don't even have mine back yet but I am expecting the results to be in line the entire experience....sub par.
I seldom take time to post here,but feel this is important to prevent someone from wasting money and time...
RUN Don't Walk as fast and as far away from Macon as you can....
I look back at my one little misadventure now with some humor when I tell the tale, and the money,?? well I can make it back.....
They are the original "one size (pattern) fits all " company, and as we all know that won't get it done when stocking Doubles....
Not wanting to hide behind any moniker I will gladly sign my name to this post and welcome a reply/rebuttal from anyone at Macon. They can recite their version,hopefully, in a somewhat more subdued tone than used toward me when I had the audacity to call them with a few "questions" regarding the Stock job on an Philadelphia Sterlingworth (a shooter,nothing more).
You see, I found it somewhat perplexing to receive my gun here at the shop completely disassembled, albeit with a new stock attached to the frame.
The discussion was really humerous when reviewed now.....
Oh yeah, we put the gun back together, and with considerable effort, (copious quantities of AcraGlas) made it function...
I gave it to a friend who puts it to work as a Rough/Waterfowler.....
Best Regards,
Paul Melton
RW,
If I were you I would just demand a refund and your gun back. Regardless of what stage of the restock they are in.
RW,
If I were you I would just demand a refund and your gun back. Regardless of what stage of the restock they are in.
R_W:
I WOULD NEVER send those Yo-Yo's a gun....I only sent them one stock to duplicate and they COULD NOT do that.......
If YOU HAVE A GUN THERE....please, please demand it be returned ASAP or your adventure is just beginning for sure......
Best,
One particular gun that I had the unpleasure experience of dealing with was a Baker Batavia Leader. The buttstock was purchased from Macon's already made inventory, but the forend had to be sent to them for duplication.
Both pieces were unusable. The lower tang of the buttstock was about 1/8" oversized and no amount of bedding would make it look right. And the forend that they supposably duplicated had good inletting, but the bottom of the iron hung off the wood about 1/4"! No way did they duplicate the original.
Wow, if a year in is "just beginning" then indeed I have truly lost.
RW,
If I were you I would just demand a refund and your gun back. Regardless of what stage of the restock they are in.
R_W:
I WOULD NEVER send those Yo-Yo's a gun....I only sent them one stock to duplicate and they COULD NOT do that.......
If YOU HAVE A GUN THERE....please, please demand it be returned ASAP or your adventure is just beginning for sure......
Best,
Yeah, kinda wish I'd seen this earlier. I swear I did some due dilly before sending my 425 off to Macon but obviously was not good enough.
While on the topic, a few things that anyone should remember when working with semi-inletted stocks is that all guns are different. Lower quality guns that were more machine made have better luck in the one stock fits most principle. Stevens and Crescent guns are good examples of this. Higher quality guns such as Parkers, Fox, LC Smith, etc... will have less uniformity becasue they are hand fitted and finished with a lot a variation sometimes.
With the later, it is always best to have your semi-inletted stock made from your original if possible. Or have your action compared against the the pattern to be used.
Another thing is that you may not know what you are getting for drop dimentions with an off the shelf duplication.
And the biggest point, semi-inlets are often advertised as 95% completed. But that is usually an overstatement. Depending on the gun it still takes a lot of time and work to get an action fitted and then all the surface work is needed after that. A drop in fit should never be expected.
In my case I sent them the complete gun with the original (cracked at the wrist) stock,still attached to the gun, to be duplicated and paid for a complete finished/checkered stock to dimensions I specifie.
They obviouisly tried to get by with a "one size" reproduction blank,that proved woefully undersized......The discussion(excuses) was humourous in looking back at it.....
The exact same scenario here. I sent them original butt stock and fore end.
In retrospect, I should have known better. How could a legitimate stock duplicating company not have a Browning 425 form on hand?!
In my case I sent them the complete gun with the original (cracked at the wrist) stock,still attached to the gun, to be duplicated and paid for a complete finished/checkered stock to dimensions I specifie.
They obviouisly tried to get by with a "one size" reproduction blank,that proved woefully undersized......The discussion(excuses) was humourous in looking back at it.....
Too often people have expectations that are much greater than a duplicator, man or machine, can meet. Time, quality and price are hard to get all in the same place. If you want it fast and cheap do not be surprised if it is not that good. A duplicator is only as good as the pattern and the operator and some stocks are a real pain in the butt to cut. Most semi inlet stocks are 90%, a few might be 95%. But it seems like too many really want 99% for 90% prices. It is not going to happen.
I bought my own duplicator, a Gemni, spent a lot of time and money upgrading it and learned the hard way. It is a lot easier on the video than in real life. One minor slip up, one little area on the pattern with a blemish, one soft or extra hard grain area in the blank, one hidden hollow burl and hours of work is ruined. Half of the battle is in having a clean, solid pattern that is well mounted in the machine the other is experience. If you cut a few hundred stocks you will learn all the tricks needed but there is no shortcut to experience. If you do not believe me I have a few ruined semi inlet blanks you can look over.
Gun stock duplication is a for profit job. Time is money and it will take three hours or more to cut a blank, add another to mount it correctly and to prep the blank. Figure four to five hours for custom jobs maybe less for a in house pattern. Man and machine should be worth $75.00-100.00 an hour. So most semi inlet stocks are made on a multiple spindle machine. That is why many duplicators do not want custom work. It just does not pay enough. It only pays to run multiple blanks at a time. That or you end up getting about ten dollars an hour for man and machine. That does not even pay for sharpening the cutters. If you like to try there are always a few Terrco duplicators on Ebay.
So if you send a stock to a duplicator that is not a standard item for the duplicator you are rolling the dice. Better to pay $300-500 for a 99% blank than $100 for 90-95% blank and hope for the best. If you can afford it my advise is to get the best duplication you can afford not the cheapest. Plus a 99% job will take you a tenth the time to fit and finish and your time must be worth something.
KY Jon,
At 75 USD an hour, the rate is higher than a top Italian engraver charges for his work. Note that engravers go to art school for a couple of years and then an engraving apprenticeship for a few more years.
It is hard to see how stock duplicating could be calculated at the same or higher cost. At the rate of 75 USD per hour, assuming full 8 hour days, a duplicator would gross over 140 thou per year.
Have you priced ANY work being done today by a qualified craftsman? Plumber -$85+hr, Electrician -$85+hr, Car Mechanic $85++hr etc. etc.. Plus alot of investment/risk buying a high dollar piece of equipment required to do this work. It took me 5 years worth of apprenticeship and several more years of experience to become a Master Craftsman in my trade. Already had the college degree (4 more years invested) and a tremendous ammount of money in tools and overhead is required to operate effectivly. (IMO)If the duplicating is done properly, I don't think $75hr is unrealistic.
Back in the 80's I sent 2 Sako rifles to George Hoenig for stocks to his pattern with my wood. They came back perfectly inletted and so close to finished on the outside that I hunted with the .222 before having it finished and checkered.His duplicator is a real work of art and ingenuity.I know he has had a lot of experience and the results were just what I expected.
"It is hard to see how stock duplicating could be calculated at the same or higher cost. At the rate of 75 USD per hour, assuming full 8 hour days, a duplicator would gross over 140 thou per year."
Ok 140K gross but what net? How long does a business last on 140K plus a year? Fajen made a million a year and went under. It is not all profit. Overhead including rent, electric, Heat/AC, Federal, State and Social Security taxes, property taxes, inventory taxes, Now healthcare ins., unemployment taxes, wear on equipment, etc... will all eat up a chunk. If you do not price your work out to make a real profit you will fail faster than every these days.
If you want to settle for a $20.00 an hour job be my guest. I rather pay top dollar and get good work than find a bargain, save a little money and work like a dog to make it work. You get what you pay for if you are lucky.
See my post of 3-16-11, same problems with the same people!
Craig
The reality is quality work costs money. Occasionally you may get a value greater than you paid, but that it is rare.
KY Jon is right on mark that businesses need to do more than break even and it is not an easy thing to do.
For me all my gun trading, gunsmithing projects, and work I have commissioned has been because I like the guns for their sake. If I were to do this needing to make a profit I would have done maybe a quarter of it. I have not made money on most deals and I am not sure I really care. Unfortunately for those who do this as a way of earning a living, they cannot be so generous. I respect that fact.
I respect those who do good work. I admire their skill and I am willing to pay a fair rate for it.
As for Macon gunstocks I leave to those who have been over promised and or underdelivered to comment.
I'll be looking for a stock for my Army Navy project and for a 99F fairly soon. It's good to know where not to go. I apreciate the info very much.
I wish I had the knack of inletting because so far my results have been sad. I think I'll inlet the 99 first as it does not seem to be as great a terror as the Army Navy.
The general survey of service charges in Brownells lists the Man Hour rate to be $40 - $85 and the Man & machine Hour rate at $50 - $95.
My duplication machine is basic, but it gets the job done. And it takes about an hour for me to do a buttstock give or take. And then more to do the forend for a set. Add in the wood and the setup time, especially if it is a new pattern and there is a good amount of time there.
I was recently quoted a price to duplicate a shotgun stock,(not from Macon's) not including the forend. The quote was 450.00. That is on my blank. I didn't think that too steep compared to having the stock carved. I can final fit/finish.
The shop rate for the company I work for is 125.00/hr, min 3 hrs.,plus expenses for out of town. that's me, the truck and the tools. Parts extra.
I can't see how the stocker could own and maintain the equipment, pay the wage/benifits/liabilty,WC etc. and the facility costs and be making much at 450.00
Message from Macon, my gun will supposedly ship by end of this week. Can not wait to see the results.
Yes Please send pictures. I sent them a gun to restock just before this thread started!!
This thread is a bit odd to me. You usually get what you pay for, if I send a gun to the UK (or America) and supply the blank I am not going to get any change at all from 2000GBP or 3000 USD for a job well done, in fact top stockers in UK will now be getting 7000 USD ??!! best, Mike
There are still several small, lesser-known, stockmakers that will restock a shotgun for less than $1k, using your blank. They do quality work, and don't advertise. Many of us use these fellows, but are not in a hurry to broadcast their names. Most have all the work they can handle, and often have 6 to 12 month waiting lists.
Talk to your friends, local gunshops, fellow shooters, etc. and you will find one.
Jerry
Mike,
I knowingly signed up for a non premium transaction to service a broken utility gun. Had this been for a mint model 21 which I needed restocked the story you tell would be of greater significance. Fact is, I could have purchased a new Browning 425 for clays and been better off at this date in time.
My post originated to relate my story of one of the worst customer service experiences I've ever been involved with. I choose to share with individuals that share in common a love for a hobby that the company I've been dealing with "services".
That is all.
Macon is makin' no mo' bacon.
Being a wood dealer for some decades now, I know many who turn blanks. A normal rifle stock runs about $100 if done on an 8x duplicator with accurate but not sharp cuts and $400-500 if done on a quality single duplicator like a Hoenig machine. The piece on this machine (in the right hands) is extremely sharp and not much inletting is required. Final work varies considerably. Many guild members want $6500 and many local craftsmen charge MUCH less. Some of the locals are better than some of the less endowed guild members. Time varies considerably. Craftsmen are generally much faster than arteests.
Anyone can contact me for a list of stock turners.
Pete
Sorry RW I wasn´t casting any aspersions, I think as you say you would have been better off just buying a second hand gun, the chaps you chose to deal with are obviously useless, best, Mike
Mike, I've no experience with US and UK stock work but can't imagine paying those prices. I've had splendid work done here in Atlantic Canada on a fine Francotte and VH Parker for a fraction of those prices.
There are still several small, lesser-known, stockmakers that will restock a shotgun for less than $1k, using your blank. They do quality work, and don't advertise. Many of us use these fellows, but are not in a hurry to broadcast their names. Most have all the work they can handle, and often have 6 to 12 month waiting lists.
Talk to your friends, local gunshops, fellow shooters, etc. and you will find one.
Jerry
Jerry those stockmaker's you speak of turning out a stock for less than a $1000...is this on a sxs (any type ) or a pump or semi or rifle ? is it a finished product ?
If that's the case, then these guy's must be starving,or much ,much faster than me ! there's no way I could turn out a a finished sxs for that much and be able make anything in the end to pay bill's ....I worked this way for year's,for the love of it,for a friend who needed a favor etc...that's until I sat down and worked out my hour's and material.
I then scoured the net and seen the price's that were being charged ,some I thought were quite reasonable, some are way up there, they're the elite and you get what you pay for. Then you have the Steven's ,the Iver's and then old single shot's from whomever and you can't expect someone to pay the loot to get these restocked so a good duplicator would fit the bill here for the D.I.Y guy's
I've never dealt with Macon,but it sound's like a no brainer to me...garbage is garbage any way you look at it,and it can't last.
On the other hand good work is good work and it should be appreciated and properly compensated for,the guy's who turn out decent stock work for less than a grand and have enough for a 12 month wait list as you say,they make it hard for someone trying to make a living on it...It's like a small town fireman and his crew,who build house's on their three day's off for cash..they have no idea how much it hurt's the local carpenter who has to keep his crew and bill's paid.
Just my two cent's.
Sometime back I was out at the gun club and a fellow came up to me and was excited about having his Kreighoff custome restocked. He wanted to show it to me for my opnion. He was very happy with the work and when he told me that he paid $1200 for both the stock and forearm, I thought I had found the holy grail.
He then brought it to me and when I saw it it was horrible. I commented how nice it was as he was happy and I guess thats what counts. I could have trained blind monkeys to do a better job.
One thing that I have noticed is many people do not know what good work is. I see this many times in Houston, work done but knowned gunsmiths, some with a national name.
John
Quality Arms
Sorry RW I wasn´t casting any aspersions, I think as you say you would have been better off just buying a second hand gun, the chaps you chose to deal with are obviously useless, best, Mike
Mike, I didn't read your post thinking you were looking for trouble! Instead, you gave me the opportunity to clarify my intentions. Thanks.
Rob
$75/hr for a stock maker? Ridiculous. No wonder our country is sinking fast.
A major manufacturing company - with millions of capital investment in tools, facilities, and degreed talent - is charging around $100/hr in today's world. So some guy in his garage with 10 grand in tools brings $75?
Update:
I'd like to post pics of the gun that was to be sent back to me last week, but surprise surprise, it is not yet finished. After taking the initiative to reach out again to Macon, it would seem that my 425 awaits final inspection by management before it can be shipped.
Will post pics upon receipt.
R_W - Did you tell Macon of this thread as leverage, to perhaps get better work than you have reason to expect? Just wondering if that might be why the owner is checking it before shipping?
Jay
$75/hr for a stock maker? Ridiculous. No wonder our country is sinking fast.
A major manufacturing company - with millions of capital investment in tools, facilities, and degreed talent - is charging around $100/hr in today's world. So some guy in his garage with 10 grand in tools brings $75?
Actually, this is exactly how our country is suppose to work. If a guy is charging $75 an hour and is turning out junk, he is not going to be in business long. Just because that is what he charges, it doesn't mean someone has to pay him that.
I know a gunmaker who virtually has nothing invested in tooling or overhead. He works in a small room in the back of his house with hand tools he bought at a flea market or made himself. Simple power tools have been repaired over repairs. He doesn't turn out anything that you can buy for under five figures, and you won't live long enough to be at the top of his work list.
Some of the most skilled craftsmen in the world work out of their garages. The amount of money you have invested in your work or business is absolutely irrelevant, it's what people will actually pay you for that work is the only thing that matters.
Now for Macon gunstocks...I think most of the posters in this thread will let you know what his work is worth.
Jay,
I did indeed forward the link to this thread to Vicki at Macon. I did so figuring I may be putting myself in a bad situation considering they still have my property, but then realized I've been without it so long what could be worse?
R_W - Did you tell Macon of this thread as leverage, to perhaps get better work than you have reason to expect? Just wondering if that might be why the owner is checking it before shipping?
Jay
Northbrook, IL, United States 10/01/2012 6:48 A.M. Out For Delivery
pics to follow.....
it appears better than what I would expect too, and while heavier it seems a decent value for the dollar
Not bad at all and being left proud the wood can be refinished without going below the metal.I am surprised. I had one of their men here a few years ago looking at my supply of wood but we never cut a deal.
Shot sporting clays today, have to say I like it better.
I can not deny the checkering makes for a better grip on the forearm. Way sharper. Also, the part I was most concerned about, larger palm swell and overall heftier but stock, makes for an awesome mount and hold.
End of thread:
If things were done right by Macon the first time, delays were not, communication was timely, sent parts weren't damaged and this didn't take a year, we'd be talking about how good this transaction was.
Thanks for your attention,
rwk
RWK, thanks for following up, I'm glad you're satisfied with the final product. It looks like you eventually got really good value.
I'm a very interested observer, as I'm waiting for them to return my Rem. M-31L. There were some problems with their first effort at restocking this gun to my specs, and Vicki assured me they would make it right. I felt discouraged by your posts, but now am more hopeful for a good outcome. I'll get back here later with photos to let everyone know how it turns out.
Jay
Thanks for the post I sent them a job a couple of days before
the blitz against Macon started. It made me pretty nervous. For what they charge it looks worth the money. I am glad your satisfied. I am having two long barreled 16 ga Stirlingworths restocked. one field grade by Macon and one modified engraved like a CE grade Fox and stocked by Gunter Pfrommer
I had them reproduce a buttstock for a H.A. Linder double and it was broken on return. They would not return any phone calls or emails. ---David H. Dallas
hopefully they insured the package for a value that you determined.
If they did not return emails or calls then how could they have assisted in filing an insurance claim if it even was insured???
This is Par for the course for Macon.
I had 3 Model 21 stock and forearm sets turned by them. They did a very good job. Much closer to net shape than other vendors. Did exceptional on a burl walnut that the guy wanted a .75 drop on.
bill
My experience with them fitting an off-the-shelf stock to my Rem. M-31 to meet my drop and LOP specs led me to this same opinion as expressed by PA24:
"they are a bunch of dishonest people"
Jay
Kem,
If you were in the USA you would be deluged with work at those prices. Beautiful work from what I can see from your pics.
SRH
Thank you for your kind words Bobby and Stan!
Kem
Apparently the "Beware of Macon Gunstocks" saga continues. Last July (2015) I shipped a very high grade (AA+) Bastogne Walnut stock blank to Macon Gunstocks to have shaped and semi-inletted. It took 4 months to receive the stock. My high grade blank had been destroyed and unusable for the intended barreled action (1924 Yugoslav Mauser). An action for which inletting is specifically listed on their web site.
Two months were then consumed trying to negotiate a replacement stock of comparable quality properly inletted for the specified action. The stock had a large cutout under the barrel channel typical of what might be done to repair a warped or broken stock (neither requested nor ordered). The stock was cut for a heavy sporter barrel (neither requested nor ordered). The semi-inletting for the action had 1/8" overcuts front and rear and comparable overcuts for the bottom metal. I was told by CEO and shop foreman Bryan that they did not make mistakes and I don't know what I'm doing. He also said that their work met industry standards. When I questioned him for a source of "industry standards" he told me that they were the largest stockmaker in the U.S. and they set the industry standards. I returned the stock for their review and 6 weeks later, without comment from them, I received a replacement stock. This stock again had 1/8" over cuts on the inletting for the bottom metal and the left side of the cut for the front receiver ring was 3/16" longer than the right side. The cut out on the right side was the proper length. In addition to the very sloppy unacceptable inletting done by the Macon shop, the quality of the replacement stock was well beneath the quality of my original blank. I reported this to Bryan in an email with photos illustrating the issues. I was told by him in an email that they did not make mistakes, that I was stupid and did not know what I was doing and that he would no longer correspond with me. He also stated that I would be banned from doing future business with him or any of Macon's dealers. I have not been able to locate any dealers for comment. I have been able to speak with a number of gunsmiths, stockmakers and gun dealers in California, Oregon, Idaho and South Carolina. The reports on Macon were consistent. Those who had done business with Macon would not repeat that attempt and those who had not directly done business with Macon had heard nothing but negative stories.
All of this is well documented and documentation including photos can be provided upon request. This experience has cost me nearly a year, a $500 walnut blank and $175 in charges from Macon plus shipping both ways both times.
Would you be willing to post the emails from Bryan at Macon Gunstocks?
Sorry for your terrible results. I've never dealt with them.
SRH
ok-
here is my silly question
if you participate on this board and this thread about the bad deals with them have been going for almost 4 years
why are we still getting new horror stories?
i don't believe every internet review i ever read - but this seems pretty darn consistent
Don't want to spoil any opinions but I have had good luck with them.
bill
ok-
here is my silly question
if you participate on this board and this thread about the bad deals with them have been going for almost 4 years
why are we still getting new horror stories?
i don't believe every internet review i ever read - but this seems pretty darn consistent
I don't think he could be considered a "participant". The above was his first post. But, I agree that if he had been reading the board for awhile he should have been leery of Macon G.
SRH
I have to sympathize with the people that have had bad experiences with semi-inletted gunstocks from Macon. Personally I have had only good experiences with them. The work was done on time and was good quality..It was worth what I paid for it. But for rare or expensive guns and exhibition grade wood. I go to a custom stocker and pay three or four times the cost. You get what you pay for. There is a good reason that Dan.Rossiter,Gunter Pfrommer, Brian Dudley and other artisans are backed up for many months and command much higher fees .
Don't want to spoil any opinions but I have had good luck with them.
bill
Me too, and I'm up to five guns restocked by Macon. Here is my post from 09/17/15, when the count was only four:
I have read this thread with interest since it started 4 years ago. I have several guns that need restocking that I keep telling myself are next on the list of things to do. But keep getting shuffled to the back of the line as new friends arrive that merely need a refinish.
However, the only conclusion that I can draw about Macon is that some people have excellent experiences and some don't. And if it goes bad, it can go quite bad. I had a brief experience that I detailed here in a post a while back, acting on behalf of a friend in Europe. It was resolved to his satisfaction but the details were such that it gives credence to the horror stories I read here.
When there are others that have been so highly recommended to me by those I trust that I have heard nothing bad about, I know that when I finally get around to it, I won't be risking a problem.
I have to sympathize with the people that have had bad experiences with semi-inletted gunstocks from Macon. Personally I have had only good experiences with them. The work was done on time and was good quality..It was worth what I paid for it. But for rare or expensive guns and exhibition grade wood. I go to a custom stocker and pay three or four times the cost. You get what you pay for. There is a good reason that Dan.Rossiter,Gunter Pfrommer, Brian Dudley and other artisans are backed up for many months and command much higher fees .
I wish it were only months. I figure for me to get a gun restocked I'd need to plan for anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Yes, the good ones are backed because they are good.
I should be able to provide the emails. I don't believe, since the emails are mine and there was nothing mentioned about confidentiality, there would be a problem in posting them. I can also include photos of their work to "industry standards" if I can figure how to attach photos.
