Anyone know if Marlin still has records on the Ranger or the 90?

I didn't think you actually could chrome a turd...


Nice gun, whats the story?

Best,
Ted

That's got to be by far the fanciest Model 90 I've ever seen. The Ranger-marked 90's were made for Sears. Can't believe that gun would have left the factory looking like that, destined for a Sears store. I'm guessing custom upgrade.

Theres a guy over on the 16 bore forum that seems to have a lot of info on em.

My thought, too.

I didn't know Sears sold anything, let alone a shotgun, so fancy.

Sorry to be so tardy in response, but just got cleared to post as new member. Skeettx was kind enough to post the pics of my Ranger. I purchased this gun recently at auction and like most of you, I couldn't believe that the engraving ,inlays, checkering etc could have been factory produced. When I disassembled the gun I found that all the serial number on the wood and metal matched. Of course one would have to question why someone would pick a Marlin 90 to apply such investment in "dolling" her up.I am trying to determine if indeed this was done by factory or aftermarket. That is my question?

Probably an engravers project,,just a guess on my part.

Is the 'R' above the serial number on the bottom part of the factory applied markings (Ranger)? It looks hand cut to me in the pic (but that's always tough to tell),,perhaps an engravers or gunsmiths mark if so.

The ducks look like they came from an Ithaca (McGraw) pattern. The dog looks familiar from Winchester or Ithaca. The checkering style follows a Winchester B carving to some extent.

Just some thoughts...

Kutter,

Sears Ranger 103-11's, 16 ga. Model 90's made by Marlin were all marked with an "R" above the serial number. The engraver just enhanced it.

The engraving is similar to that done in Japan for GIs in the 50s and 60s - possibly Hamada & Son

BarclayG,
I was linked to this subject from a another thread...Drew may be correct about it being a GI piece, although when I first looked at your gun and saw the ivory grip cap, I thought G&R Tackle...G&R had several engravers on board and two outside stock makers...It may be worth while to email Bill Mains with a photo to see if this was a G&R made gun...The ducks on the bottom kinda look like the early work of Mains.

Mains has a website, perhaps he would recognize it as his work or the work of Ray Swan. see http://www.billmainsengraver.com/About-Bill-Mains.html

Besides the engraving, the gun was either restocked or at the very least re-checkered which suggestes more than one skilled craftsman...and that checkering is the work a highly accomplished checkerer.

Also, I would like to apologize for Ted3000 and his vicious comment about it being a "chromed turd". He feels the need to poo-poo every every gun or post that isn't owned by someone he kisses up to. I'ts strange how the other readers find his sharp tongue socially acceptable, even when he insults a newbie. He has nothing constructive to offer, no knowledge of the gun in question, yet he was compelled to berate your gun. He did follow up with "nice gun" but too late, he had just opened the door to other mud slingers...

If it turns out that Drew's assessment is correct, then your on your way...If it looks like my GUESS may have possibility, you can email me and I will post a seven page history of G&R (with a link)

Just got off the phone...I'm printing photos of your Marlin...another Iroquois Arms Collector member is on his way to pick them up and drive them (40 mi each way) to the last surviving G&R owner to see if he recognizes it. Even if it is, he may not recognize it as hundreds of custom shotguns passed through his shop across the 60' and 70's. Either way, it's worth a try and I may have the answer later tonight.

Robert Chambers,

You mentioned engraver Ray Swan above. Back in 1982 we traveled together to the FEGA meeting when it was held within the Tulsa gun show. It has been many years since I have heard of Ray or seen any of his work. Back in those days, Ray lived in Cheektowaga, NY. Do you have any recent information on his whereabouts or if he still engraves?

Thanks,
Roger

Robert,
When it was first suggested that the gun may have been engraved in Japan I thought that highly unlikely, but upon more research I can see that aa a real possiblity. I am also interested in following the lead you suggestted as well. I think when I began this quest I wanted to beliweve this could have been factory produced. I have now determined in my mind that that is not the case. On closer inspection the latch on the forearm has clearly been replaced that is not of the vintage and design of the original.. The wood I believe is original to the gun as the stamped serial numbers on both the stock and forearm match the metal stamping on the frame and barrels. I was not offended by the off color comment as I try to see the positive in all that is offered. It did call into perspective the question why someone would make such an investment in what otherwise would be a most ordinary O/U. I certainly appreciate your assistance in helping to trace done some of the history of this piece.
THANKS

I have copied my comments from the Jarred thread below for those who may not have seen them.

I have to diasgree with Drew about the 90 being Japanese engraved. All of the engraving I've seen done by Japanese trained engravers has a very distinctive scroll. The Japanese are trained to cut toward themselves using short chisels without a handle. Their scroll looks Germanic at first blush but is cut very differently. Most of their post war work for GI's does have raised silver inlays but almost all of their long guns have their stocks carved with game scenes.

The scrollwork on the pictured 90 looks very amateurish. It is full of dog legs and elbows, especially the scroll on the forend iron. It is my opinion that it was engraved by the owner as a project piece. No master engraver at a gun factory would allow one of their engravers to put out work with such ill formed scrollwork. The stock looks pretty good but stocks are not my specialty.

I don't know who owns the gun in question and I am not trying to run down the piece. skeettx asked for my opinion and I offered it. I hope no one's feelings are hurt but I have tell it like I see it. I will reiterate that there is nothing about this model 90/Ranger that reminds me of Japanese engraving (and I have seen lots of it). All of the Japanese scrollwork I have seen is far more concentric and has characteristic cuts not evident on this piece.

Cheers,
ROger

BarclayG,
OK...the the photos are on their way...the courier learned to be an engraver under Mains and Swan...he too thought it could be a G&R gun and said it looked like Main's work...still though, your best bet may be to send the photo's directly to Bill Mains. After posting last, I read Mains history which stated that he invented the rotary engraving chuck in 1959. I have that very rotary vise he made in '59 built right into my smithing bench if anyone would like to see photos of it.

C Roger,
I haven't spoke with Ray Swan in many years (10 or so). Last I spoke he was buried in self inflicted engraving work where he agreed to do two matching guns. He explained that doing one gun is easy because you have artistic license, but when you agree to two matching, dead-nuts accuracy must be acheived on the second gun. By the way, Ray usually signed his work with a microscopic silhouette of a swan (not much of a strech there)

I really hope this pans out for Barclay

Barclay,
I'm glad you saw my post for what it was, and that your thoughts mirrored my own. Mr. Chamberpot fancies himself a "researcher", but, the truth is we already have a far better one here who posts under that name. Besides, he is still smarting to this day from having to accept that there were two companies that produced sliding breech guns with the name "Darne" on them-I straightened him out on that very issue years ago, and pointed out that he would really need to be able to read, write and speak French in order to decipher French gun catalogs, (he doesn't) and while he would like to forget it, it is unlikely that he ever will.
I suppose he thinks folks have forgotten that, but, my email suggests otherwise.
I suspect, but can't prove for you, that Kutter may have it right. My Father comissioned a Remington 700 in 7mm magnum in the very early 1960s, and the engraving is far different from that which has been applied to your gun. Proves little, I know, but there were some pretty good engravers working in Japan in that era.
I'll see about posting photos of the Remington.

Best,
Ted

Ted3000,
I'm trying my best to ignore you


and don't try to drag others into your troubled posts...I can say in all honesty, I have never besmirched the good names of Winston Churchill or Brittany Spears

Yet another instance of "hunting season can't get here soon enough".

Obfuscation:To render indistinct, or dim, darken. To confuse or becloud, Over the years, one Robert Chambers has, on this board;
1.Claimed to the board for several years to be black, as in African American. He later diavowed this claim. I have no knowledge what color he is, and, simply don't care. I have no idea why someone would do this, but, he has admitted to it.
2. Claimed all sliding breech guns are "Darnes". They are not.
3, Claimed, using a snipet of a retailers ad copy, that Darne action Charlins were produced by the Charlin company. They were not.
4. Posted photos here of Loy's engraving and "hallmark". He did not identify said hallmark. Please note, that I don't care about the poorly engraved examples of gamescene engraving he has posted, or, who did them
5. Posted various non-sense about somebody named Brittany, to further distance the argument that either Loy's or Flue's gamescene engraving is not up to the standard of others. He still has not answered a very simple question I asked about that.
6. Assaulted the character of more that one valued contributer to the board.

Perhaps someday he will add something of value to the discussion, here. But, I doubt it. Obsfucation, is about all he has ever done, here.


Best,
Ted

This was my first thought as well. Many an unusual firearm was purchased through the PX by GIs stationed in Japan and then taken to a Japanese engraver for "enhancement". However of the ones I've seen over the years this engraving just doesn't look right. Additionaly; The wood has been upgraded here as well. I don't ever remember seeing a Japanese engraved gun from that period with this feature.
Of course as a first step the factory should be contacted to see what,if anything,is in their records.
Jim

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I find the occasional pissing matches on the board between old "frinds" to be exceedingly boring, adding nothing of importance, and better suited to PM's. Folks, get over yourselves.

Ted, re "obsfucation" . . . are you trying to obfuscate about obfuscation??

Example of Japanese engraving with comments by Roger
http://www.handengravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=4969

He does it on so many different subjects and levels I was trying to be careful not to use the singular form, Larry....


Best,
Ted

Good one, Ted! I was thinking more like the pluperfect subjunctive.

Interesting info on a really nice upgrade! With no records at Marlin or elsewhere, it can sometimes be really frustrating trying to reseach the history of a particular Model 90.

Some people have described Model 90's as "ugly" but they were made in America and in my opinion and in the opinion of many others, they handle and shoot great. One guy on the 16ga.com site describes his 16 ga. Model 90's as "magic wands" because he shoots them so well.

BarclayG,
The owner of G&R thought "yes" it looks to be a G&R gun but he didn't remember anything about that particular gun. Please keep in mind that they made hundreds of upgrades over 2 or 3 decades. The next step is...you try contacting Bill Mains, and I'll try to contact Ray Swan.

Also, some extreme close-ups of the engraving may help someone to recognize the engraver by cutting technique.

I recall--but I think it was on another gun-related website--a poster providing some photos of a really nice Model 90 in the "Skeetking" version. I've never seen one of those in the flesh, but the 1940 Shooter's Bible lists the price at $70 vs $40 for the standard model. That's close to the price of a Browning Superposed back then.

Some folks just want to make a favorite gun something special for them to enjoy shooting without any consideration of the cost or future resale value. I've been toying with the idea of redoing this 16 ga. Tula Model B sxs hammer gun (that "experts" think was made between 1917 and 1945) to a straight stock with checkering, case hardened frame, refreshed engraving and rust blued barrels. I like the gun, it is unusual, I shoot it well and I have no intention of selling it anytime soon. However, why would I want to spend $1200-$1500 or more on a gun I bought used for $350? The only justification is to have something special that I would enjoy owning and shooting for a long time.

BarkyVA,
Here’s my Tula with a resculpted stock.

You could resculpt yours and rust blue the barrels yourself. As far as the other work, it’s up to you what you’re comfortable working on.
Steve

"... However, why would I want to spend $1200-$1500 or more on a gun I bought used for $350? The only justification is to have something special that I would enjoy owning and shooting for a long time."

That's a perfectly good reason to do it.
People spend much more for much less in return. It isn't always about monetary return,,that's why they're called 'hobbys'.

That stock would make into a straight grip nicely from the looks of the toe line.

Robert C,
Thanks for the feedback from G&R. I'll get some close up pics off to Mains soon. Gun is presently in hands of local master engraver for detailed inspection/opinion. I really appreciate your follow up.

Here are some photos of my 16 ga. Model 90 Skeetking. Only available in 1939 and 1940, they were special order guns with upgraded wood and hand engraving . The engraving on this gun is very similar (some of the patterns are identical) but more elaborate than on a "standard" Skeetking. Chokes were typically adjusted at the factory to give the best pattern at 20 yards (bottom barrel) and 30 yards (top barrel although mine was choked Mod/Full. This one has a non-selective single trigger but most were DT's.

Nice! While I might try putting "cold" blue on the barrels, no way would I tackle rust blueing or resculpting the stock. I don't have the woodworking tools and I don't feel I have the skills to do a good job.

BarkeyVA,
Read this article I wrote for the .410 website http://www.fourten.org.uk/My410RossiSquireProject.pdf please take special note of the specialized woodworking tools I used (LOL).
Steve

Great job! Thanks for the encouragement.

Barkey, thanks for posting. Those photos are as close to a Skeetking as I've ever gotten.

There is a nice article in Double Gun Journal, Volume 20, Issue 2 (Summer 2009) pp. 82-89, entitled, "Marlin Model 90 Skeetking," by James Tyson. It has some excellent photos of the typical factory hand engraving on Skeetkings.