I picked up a gun today at a gunshow. 12 g, hammergun, european (?).
KIRNE JOSEH PESTON
FEGVER CYAROS
M KIR UDVARI
All markings in gold.
No proof marks.
I won't be able to do pics until next week.
Anyone recognize anything here yet???
Thank you!!
Bob Jurewicz

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276043#Post276043


Love to see the locks and marks Bob.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Thank you for the reply!!! This gun is quite unique with a hammer and pin system I have never seen before.
Traveling home to NY tomorrow and will be home Mon. nite, I will take pics and post.
The engraving and gold on this gun got to me and I payed waaaay to much, but, its beautiful!!!!!!
Bob Jurewicz

My thought, too - Joe Something-Hungarian from Pest.

Bob:
Also it would date prior to the the official merger of Buda & Pest, and some other area, in 1873 although there was some unification in 1867. I would assume that József Kirner's address changed at that time and it would pair nicely with the pinfire & centralfire system you not. Am curious though if the back of the locks are stepped. I've asked fuhrmann to translate some text and it appears the Anton Mulacz of Wien was a whale of a lock maker and may be the source as he palled around with the likes of
Leopold Gasser, Johann Kaletzky, Stefan Mann, Wenzel Maschek, and Johann Springer. I assume that all may have offered the stepped lock variant but if we add Kirner, Lebeda & Nowak I think we may have about rounded out the list.

The title or appointment you note on the rib is:
Császári Es Királyi Udvari Puskamüves(gunsmith)-(császári és királyi)
Fegyvergyaros(armourer)

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276543&Searchpage=1&Main=17173&Words=+k%F6niglich&Search=true#Post276543

And may look like:




Kirner remekmuve(masterpiece)

For now we may have overlooked Karoly Kiszela or Kiszela Karoly .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is what I can do for now.



Bob Jurewicz

What does it read on the lock or can you discern it? Looks like an early centralfire system.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I didn't look close enough at what you had typed or the other rib which has: M. Kir. Udvari or Magyar Királyi Udvari

Or Supplier to someone court.
I think this to be the German version -
königlich ung. hof büchsenmacher & Waffenfabrikant


Kirner's royal court dubbing by Prince Rudolf may have been in 1871.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Left - KIRNER
Right - PESTON
Rib - KIRNER JOSEF PESTEN
Left barrel band - M KIR UDVARI
Right barrel band - FEGYVERDYAROS
all in gold.
Bob Jurewicz

Here is what the inscription translates to approximately. It is in Hungarian. "Kirner, Pest, Kirner Josef of Pest, Royal Court Armourer. It is likely a royal gun from the Austrian Hungarian empire.
Here is another example.
http://www.msgunowners.com/t22145-joseph-kirner-shotgun-help

Here is an approximate value if you have an acount. This gun was made for Franz Josef I.
http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/hahn-doppelflinte,-josef-kirner-budapest-aus-de-1-c-0c90384348
Nice find very cool gun!

Very few of the Prince Rudolf or Franz Josef sporting weapons exist and the verbiage is purely advertising. The appointment occurred after one submitted several examples and warranted a stout yearly fee. Being supplier to a court could be from the dog handler on up. Without strict provenance with a connection the the King or Emperor's chamber, I for one would be reluctant to believe. It's akin equating a post WWI German sporting weapon to H. Göring.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think you may have read more into the term royal than I usually do. Russia and AH both had more titles than the library of Alexandria. My point is, at the time it was made, half the Royal Family and most of the peasantry and commoners could not have bought it in 20 years of saving.
Regards

Interesting point and understood. I guess one would also have to factor in available hunting grounds. True, it is somewhat of a stretch/exaggeration with the hound handler but take the 1/2 that could afford a bespoke sporting weapon. Very few were in the actual possession of the emperor or king. I would think that the empire would have put a sporting weapon on their tab if they saw fit for someone with the umbrella and also I'm sure friends of the emperor or king received similar gifts. So it is possible that it might be a sporting weapon ordered by someone within a royal court. But I contend that many, even some with gold inlay, with the inscription Magyar Királyi Udvari, Császári Es Királyi Udvari Puskamüves, k.u.k., etc. were advertising and just fluff. And the noted gunsmith wasn't under the direct employment of the court and wasn't in the castle hammering sporting weapons out one at a time. He was a subcontractor at best.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hungarian weapons terms here:

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/hunggerm.htm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is a closeup.
Bob Jurewicz

Nice image capture. Reminds me of our ole friend Charles Harvey under British Patent #1793 or 1866:




Better image by Mr. Hallquist.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post275692

So a best guess to date it would be post 1866 and pre-1871? Looks to be a carbon copy and maybe Kirner is responsible for importing or the transfer of technology of the grip-catch/Harvey/Rigby style forend latch into the Austo-Hungarian empire? Let's see the forend latch there Bob.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimy,
Forend is appart for wood repair. The forend iron is hinge pinned to the front of the receiver. It pivots down when gun is opened. The barrels are pinned to the mid of the forend. That is how I broke the wood (damn) when I was trying to slide-tap the pin thru the barrel's underloop.
Bob Jurewicz

Bob: could you please post a close up of the barrels? That is a very interesting pattern and might be acid etched Ferlacher Austria II (below) or Bernard I

This one shows the barrel pattern and the pinning of the forend iron.

Hate that about the wood Bob. Maybe it was a learning experience? Could you provide us with an image of the hammers back and one of the standing breech? Interesting bump on the forend iron.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Bob. Likely acid etched Bernard I

Similar offering by Karl I. Werlik( 1813 - 1889 ) of Teschen(Cieszyn)




http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279289#Post279289

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse