Hey guys, i would like to buy a new o/u to replace my superposed and have it narrowed down to 3 guns. A Ceasar Guerini Woodlander, a Silver Pigeon, or a Browning Superlight Feather.
First off, i prefer english stocks (or at least Prince of Wales style)and Schnabel forearm and might save extra for the silver pigeon v which offers the english stock.
These preferences have brought me to the Browning Superlight Feather. The gun fits me nice and is quite a bit cheaper than the other two but im worried about the alloy receiver. Do you think even with the steel pins it would loosen up? I like to shoot skeet and trap everyonce in a while, so the gun would see plenty action besides upland hunting and i dont plan on buying another 12 guage o/u for the remainder of my life.
Also, out of the three shotguns i've mentioned, do you perfer one over the other considering they all fit me well?
Thanks for your time.

Hello
A few questions

1. How old are you?
2. Why replace the Superposed? Stolen?
3. Game or Target as primary use?
4. Any waterfowl hunting in the future?
5. How many rounds per month on the average?

Thanks
Mike

I have no experience with the Guerini, but do with the other two. I favor the Beretta over the Browning. I have seen too many Brownings with steel frames loosen, to the point that they open themselves after the first shot, to ever want to try one of their alloy guns.

I have over 10,000 rounds through my SP II with nary a hiccup. I just don't think there is a better production hunting/clays O/U on the market than the 687 series Berettas.

SRH

I have owned a good handful of Browning Citori based guns (older and 3xx, 4xx, and 5xx series) and find them to be a bit heavy for an upland gun, especially so in 12g. The primary weight seems to be the heavy walled barrels.

I've found that I prefer Beretta barrels now. The 687 Ultra Light Delux would by my pick over the other two in 12ga. It is an aluminum alloy frame but has a titanium insert in the breachface. But, I'd prefer a smaller bore like the 20ga. That might bring the alloy frame Tiempo into the mix.

1. 39
2. I find the superposed a little heavy for all day hunting and prefer a slimmer forearm. Also, it doesnt seem to fold pheasants like my other shotguns (probably me).
3. Game
4. No waterfowl with the o/u, im actually shopping for a pump with a 3.5 inch capacity.
5. hmm, in winter not to much, summer and fall 200 a weekend.

Since i have posted this i noticed the Browning only comes in a 26in barrel, kind of like 28s.

HR,
If you're gonna get a waterfowl gun separately, I'd look at a 687 Ultra Light Deluxe in 12g or possibly the Tempio Light in 20ga at about 5 1/2 lbs

Thanks for the recommendation Chuck, i think 20 guage is out, i need all the help i can get killing pheasants up here. I will have to handle that Beretta, i kind of found the grip a little cramped for my hand. Might all be in my head though, i always found the English stock came up faster for me.

Go for the Beretta Gd V Straight

http://www.berettausa.com/products/687-silver-pigeon-v-english-stock/default.aspx

Thanks for answering the questions
Mike

p.s. But Chuck H, this would be my choice
http://www.orvis.com/intro.aspx?dir_id=1089&group_id=25577&cat_id=15480&subject=7873

OF Course WE ALL KNOW the 16 gauge is best !!!

I've been shooting Beretta 686 & 687s for 35+ years
the 6 lb 20 ga is too light for me but that's me

for skeet and sporting clays handload 5/8 to 7/8 oz in 12 ga or at the end of the day you will know it's a 7 lb 12 ga

shoot 1 1/4 oz Federal copper plate #6s for turkey and pheasant

great guns in all regards except rolled engraving
I'm sure the engraving is the cause for most of my missed shots.

Having shot a lot of clays & live birds with LW (alloy) K80 & K32 it seems to me that the alloy guns do exhibit a bit more wear than same steel gun would. That said, I have a SLF 16ga I hunt a lot and also shoot a few pre-season clays. Other than handling marks,it shows no significant signs of wear. The SLF is really too light for serious (100 round +/-) days of clays shooting in any event.

Hi:

Get a Beretta Ultrlight! I have one with over 50,000 rounds through it and no problem yet! Great guns for what you want to use it for in the future. Do not be afraid to buy a used gun!

Good luck,

Franchi

You might find a Beretta with a steel frame that will be almost as light as a Browning with an aluminum alloy frame. I generally prefer the feel of the Beretta and the looks of the Guerini. I have only two alloy-framed guns (at least that's all I can remember right now), and one of those is a Browning Feather XS. Absolutely great gun, but it's a .410 so wear is not an issue. My other alloy O/U is a Cortona (FAIR) Alumino in 12 ga. I bought it mainly for pheasants and chukar, because I didn't want to spend the money on a 687 Ultralight. I highly recommend the Alumino as an alternative if you can find one, came only in 28" barrel length.

An Aluminum alloy receiver poses different problems than steel receiver guns but in practicality today, unless you are a competitive shooter, you should not experience any more problems than a steel gun would present.
Choose what fits best and what you like and forget about the rest. Just be careful around caustics with aluminum alloy.
If I ever find a Browning 16 Feather Superlight for a reasonable price, I will purchase it.-Dick

Thank you everyone for your replies. Im going to look at Berettas and CG's in about a hour, i will post a full report.

HR,
I found the quality of a Beretta to be better than the Guerini. Strip the forend off both and look at the machining. If all things were equal, I'd opt for the B-gun. But all things are never equal. That's what makes all this decision stuff fun.

A friend has an AL frame K-80. I am sure it has shot 6 figures and it is still going strong
bill

Back from the gun shop. Couple of things, the beretta ultralight only comes in a 2 3/4 in receiver, i want 3 in capabilities. The wild Alberta pheasants are tough and i need as mush help as possible.
I really liked the standard silver pigeon grade 1 in the fact compared to the Browning their use of steel is way better engineered (thin reciever, fit and finish). The problem with the gun is the darn grip is tight, i have a big wide hand. Not a deal breaker but it does bug me.

There was only one CG at the shop and it was in 20 guage, i like the stock better than the Beretta for sure but couldnt really make a good comparison because the lack of a 12 guage.

The Brownings were nice guns also, liked the prince of wales grip but they are heavier.

The guy was really pushing a Franchi on me, it was 1000 dollars cheaper, alloy receiver, and 3 in capable. Kind of sloppy in the checkering though. For a 1000 dollar difference i would expect a big difference in quality from the Beretta. Whats everyones opinions on Franchi?

Whatever i decide to buy the stock is going to need some serious cutting to fit me, ive got wide shoulders and a thick chest and everything i handled was way off.

Anyway, im going to send an email to Beretta and see if an english stock is possible on the lower end SP guns.

If anyone has any opinions or picks for a o/u in the 2500 dollar range i would appreciate some input. thanks

The Cortona Alumino came with a straight grip and 3" chambers. That's the way mine is configured. Weight is 6-7 with 28" barrels and choke tubes.

The new Franchi Instinct SL is a great feeling little gun, but at 5.3 pounds for a 20ga it would be punishing with 3" loads. The local dealer here in town carries both Beretta and Franchi. He said the new Franchis are going fast as they offer a happy medium between the low end Stoegers and the higher end Berettas. I will admit that while the fit and finish is nowhere near the level done on a Beretta, for $1,000 it looks pretty damn good. Take the other $1k you would spend on the Beretta and buy a pallet of ammo.

I don't know why you need 3" to shoot pheasants. They can easily be killed with 2.5" #6 Copper Loads from RST.

Another question. How does a Rizzini in the 2500 dollar price range stack up against a Beretta?

Depends on which Rizzini it is. There are several Rizzini companies, B. Rizzini and Fabbrica Armi Isidoro Rizzini (FAIR) being the most commonly seen. Both companies have made guns under various labels (B. Riz made some of the Sig shotguns, and FAIR made the Cortonas and some of the Veronas, as well as a few other labels). The B. Rizzinis are generally more nicely finished than a Beretta at a similar price point, and the FAIR guns can vary from pretty darn good to excellent, depending on which version you are looking at. As an example, the FAIR/Cortona line had O/Us with MSRP from about $1500 to $4500. The $4500 guns were nicer than the $1500 guns, in about the same range as the Beretta White Onyx to the 687EL. The Cortonas are discontinued and really nice ones can be found new for under $2500. The best value in Sig/Rizzinis is probably the SA5, under $2500 used.

Rp,
Is the Guerini line part of one of the Rizzini companies?

Hi Hot Rod:

For your hunting a Franchi O/U would be a great choice!

They sell one that is very nice and is lightweight at about $1200.00 USD.

I do not think that you need a 3" 12 gage for pheasants! A 2-3/4" magnum 12 will be all that you need! Plus, a 3" magnum in a 6 lb. gun would make you wish that you had died in infancy!

I sometimes shoot a Beretta Ultralight and a 2-3/4" magnum is more than I need to kill pheasants over a pointer! Regular "low brass" six shot is fine for pheasants over a pointer.

In 1970, I moved to High River and the fields east of there were full of birds of all kinds!

Look at a Franchi O/U and you will see that it is not worth spending $1000.00 more for a Beretta! I was lucky to find a used Beretta Ultralight and it is a great gun if you insist upon a 12 gage.

Are you planning to hunt with a dog?

Good luck,

Franchi

Take a look at http://colegun.com/ Cole's is the East Coast Beretta specialist and can custom build a gun to your specs. Gil

thank you for this information, i was looking on the rizzini usa page specificaly at the Aurum model.

My experiences with Coles have been very good, but their custom guns start around $6k, so they would not fit this budget.

My first OU was a Franchi Alcione - used, they can be had for $1k or even a little less and you would be hard pressed to find a better gun for that price. The entry level Guerini (Woodlander) is about $3k new, which is $1k more than the 686 Beretta SP1 or White Onyx. The Guerini will be a bit better finished, have much better customer service (assuming you need it) and has three free clean/overhauls. Long, pointless debates could be had about which shoots better and will last longer. Both are good guns - the Beretta will probably hold value better on resale. I haven't spent much time with B. Rizzinis but my understanding is that their entry level guns are a good value compared to Guerinis (very similar actions, with less finish). CSMC just terminated their relationship with B. Rizzini - not sure who is servicing those guns now.

Guerini is working on bringing out some new OUs through Fabarm as a result their recent investment. If your need is not immediate, you might want to wait to see how that plays out.

Going OT here, but a gunsmith recently told me recently that Beretta was having their lower end guns made in Turkey now.

Franchi, how do you think the Francho holds up to the Beretta ultralight? I hunt over pointers and for the life of me cant seem to kill these pheasants "dead" with the superposed (full and mod chockes). When i use my wingmaster, they drop like rocks. Im really thinking the gun just isnt right for me.

Doverham, thanks for the input. Im pretty limited to what i can try up here in Edmonton, Browning, CG, Yildiz, CZ, Beretta, Win 101 are plentiful but the smaller Italian and Spanish gun makers are hard to find. I would have to order without trying.

Sounds like that might be a fit issue. Have you had someone do a gunfitting for you?

My experiences with Coles have been very good, but their custom guns start around $6k, so they would not fit this budget.

[/quote]

Berettas start at $3900. His A Zoli's start at $6k according to website:
https://colegun.com/shotguns-cole-custom-shotguns-c-1_24.html

The story I have heard/read is that the Guerini boys were Batista Rizzini's nephews, and when they asked for a piece of the company he declined to give them an equity stake in the business. So, they took off and started their own company, named after another one of their uncles. So, not part of Rizzini, but there are links.

I suspect that pheasants in Alberta is a bit different than pheasants in PA. When I was younger, I used 7-1/2's on wild birds in California because that is what I had around. Then I started using 6's, and had a lot of runners. With no dog that can be a big problem. Then I tried 5's and finally moved to 4's. I don't use 6's any more. Depending on conditions, it's usually 5's in a Mod choke for the first barrel and 4's in a Full choke for the second shot if needed. Kills them in the air. Our shots are usually fairly long.

Here is a pretty thorough discussion of the inter-relatedness of these various Brescia makers:

Rizzini world

The Aurum is a very nice gun, but a new one is probably over your $2500 budget, and I'm pretty sure they use steel frames. Not too many of them available in the used market. If you want a steel-framed gun, it's a whole lot easier to find a Beretta, new or used. My favorite Beretta field O/U is the original Black Onyx, which can be had used for way less than your budget, and you might even be able to fit a set of Cole's upgraded wood and stay under $2500 total. The Beretta field grades are notable for their plain wood, but every once in a while a really nice one pops up. And a Black Onyx with nice wood is much more elegant than any of the fancypants guns that Beretta has brought out subsequently. From what you have described so far, I'd rule out anything from Browning or Winchester, just based on weight.

Tough birds up here. I will be going state side to Montana this fall to hunt pheasants, pretty pumped up about that. I think i will bring the old superposed in and have it properly fitted this week. She is a bit heavy for all day hunting though and have been drooling for a while now over some of these CG's and Berettas.

If i could import a gun from the states my troubles would be over, been seeing alot of nice stuff on gunsamerica and other sites.

HR,
I agree with you, birds up in the north are or seem to be tough. They will take hits and keep going. I've resorted to #5 shot. That seems to be enough.

I think your problem with the Superposed not killing is a fit issue as well. Some Supers will have a bit higher dimensions than guns like a 870. The higher comb dimensions will often cause high shooting. Try 'floating' your target/bird a little higher in the sight picture and see if the hits improve.

Regardless of the brand/model you get, you'll have to assure that the fit is right. If you happen to be 'John Q Average', you'll still encounter stocks too high or too low for you. A model 12 or 870 will often have 1 1/2 x 2 1/2 x 14 dimensions. These fit me almost perfectly. But there's a lot of guns that are 1 3/8 x 2 1/4 or even higher combs and some of the current makers are trending toward higher comb dimensions. I find I can compensate for a slightly higher comb when shooting clays, but not very consistantly when hunting.

Supers are choked very tightly and the 12 gauge Full I have measured are about 39 thousands constriction so with the ammunition of today give very tight patterns.
How is your Wingmaster choked or does it have screw chokes?
The Beretta UL has screw chokes and you could go to SKEET USA and SKEET USA.
You do not need 3" chambers and do not want 3" chambers. -Dick

HR,
I agree with Dick on this...you really don't need a 3" shell for pheasant. More than that, you will find shooting 3" shells will lead to heavy flinching and eventually you're likely to do worse than shooting more appropriate shells. Shooting a 3" shell in a sub 7lb gun will beat you up and second shots will be less accurate. Lightweight guns and big shells are a bad mix for accurate/consistant shooting.

Killing a pheasant doesn't take a huge amount of hits from the shot, but it takes penetration. That's where larger shot size helps. I go to the Dakotas every year with nothing larger than a 20g with one ounce loads, and lately more and more with a .410. But I use large shot.

A well fit gun by someone that really knows gun fit and some professional instruction and practice will go further in filling your bag than larger and larger loads.

My 870 is full choke with the longest barrel available on tjegun. ishould pattern the superposed, i can shoot trap very good with it but dont exactly dust the clays like my other guns. thanks everyone for their opinions. great site and posters.