Hi all, ran across this one, just thought I'd get your thoughts on it:

http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/product_details.asp?id=3166

Asking price is 6k. Worth it?

Thanks so much!

Greg

I like the Moore establishment and have been there seveal times. Having said that; I would have a perceptual problem with buying a "guild" gun for that price. It may be well made an a excellent shooter but you always have to keep eventual resale in mind.
If I were to buy a $6k gun I'd want a British example from a well known maker. Resale of this example from an unknown maker(s) sometime in the future IMO could prove problematic.
Jim

It is a very nice gun but I too think that if you are at all concerned about resale, it could be a problem.

Pretty, but, she looks a little thick in the wrist.

Very nice gun and the photos are good enough to allow pretty close examination. The workmanship appears to be excellent in all phases. I would expect its value to act in a similar fashion as many Spanish guns--sharp depreciation upon purchase. One ploy you might try with the sellers: in the future would they allow the full purchase price of the gun back in trade for a equal or higher valued gun if returned in the same conditon as purchased? If so, get it in writing. I have made this type purchase with a couple dealers though haven't exercised the option.

Greg, the Thonon I told you about is, I think, a nicer gun. Stocked to the fences, plus it has a name--for 25% less $. That's a very nice gun Moore has, and comparing to Spanish SLE's, they have a point. But it's still a no-name Belgie, and you have to focus on the market for those, not for Spaniards.

Here's another one you ought to consider, for essentially the same money. Cased, in 16ga, and with a name:
http://griffinhowe.com/sgmoreinfo.cfm
Woops, sorry. Link does not take you all the way. Go to the DeFourney 16 under Used Shotguns. I think you'll like that one.

Greg = pm me if you are interested in the DeFourney at G&H

Years ago I had the opportunity to buy such a gun (though not as nice) from an aged GI who had brought this unfired gun back from the war in Europe. He had no idea as to what he should ask, and asked me how to value it.

It was a beautifully made gun, inside and out. For illustrative purposes I said it was easily equal to a Parker. But it wasn't a Parker, and I told him that without some associated name recognition it was maybe only worth a tenth of a Parker.

I think this is pretty much what the other posters here are saying - it may be worth $XX to you, but when you go to sell it, the line of takers will be pretty short.

It's a beauty, though, isn't it?

No

I dissent.

You can get less gun for more money.

Go shopping in CT.

Hi all and many thanks!! I just posted this as a discussion and learning experience. I have little knowledge of Belguim guns, so I'm trying to get as much info on various guns that were made in Belguim. I really have not interest in buying this one, too much $$$.

Still thank you all, I've learned some things!

All the best!

Greg

Greg,

I know I'll get many angry responses to this but it's my opinion nonetheless. I wouldn't buy a Belgian gun with a 10' pole if I were in your shoes. (or in mine) By Belgian gun I mean Belgian but not a Francotte Best or some such other absolutely stellar gun of great provenance.

For similar money you can certainly buy an English gun and perhaps even a modest quality London gun. While a Belgian gun (or Spanish or Italian for that matter) sits there holding its own or depreciating, a London/Birmingham gun is going to be a lot better investment in the long run.

Beyond the investment, a London gun is built like a Swiss Watch and a Belgian gun could be built like absolute garbage or it could be built to a high grade...you almost never know the full story by looking at them.

No one ever tried to make a living faking Belgian guns en masse but that certainly can't be said for London guns being forged by Belgians. I think that speaks volumes as to where the better guns originate.

$6000 would get you a used Birmingham best or a mid-grade London sidelock with a few issues but great to shoot. In my opinion a way better option.

If a steller sideplated Browning with 28 inch barrels and killer wood is of any interest to you Greg, pm me.

I don't own it, but I know where one can be bought for less money than the gun you posted. If you bought it you can donate ten bucks to Dave.

Greg,

I would not spend that type of money on a gun without knowing the maker. Here are some links that may help in the future.

This one is mine. I have the Belgian proof marks and over 1,000 maker's marks.
http://damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

This is Little Gun. Alan does not cover every maker, nor does he go into depth, but it is a great resource.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20gb.htm

Pete

Thanks Pete, great info!!! Sure is extensive, I appreciate it!!

Say, where would one find the date code?

Thanks again so much!!!

Greg

Try here

Belgian date codes

The date codes are here:
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

Doverham,

Nice site. However, he is using a single source, "Marquis et Poincons D'Armes en Belgicue" by Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst. Beerst has several errors in his proofmarks. Also, he lists controllers of proof back to 1911. The controllers listing is not accurate prior to 1924.

I used Beerst, Wirnsberger, Kennett and A. Baron Englehart.
Wirnsberg wrote, "A Standard Dictionary of Proofs".
Gun Digest Treasury, Published in 1960 contains a series of articles on European and British proof marks. The articles cover 72 pages it includes many illustrations. The author is A. Baron Englehart

Lee Kennett, "A History of Proof Marks. Gun Proof in Belgium", (highly recommend) from Gun Digest 32nd edition 1978.

Here are the Gun Digest articles by Lee Kennett for proof marks.
22nd Edition Czechoslovakia -1968
23rd Edition Austria Hungary & Austria - 1969
24th Edition France - 1970
25th Edition Spain -1971
26th Edition Italy - 1972
27th Edition Hungary - 1973
28th Edition Russia - 1974
29th Edition Germany -1975
30th Edition Military - 1976
31st Edition England - 1977
32nd Edition Belgium - 1978

Gun Digest Treasury, Published in 1960 contains a series of articles on European and British proof marks. The articles cover 72 pages it includes many illustrations. The author is A. Baron Englehart

Pete

Thanks all!! What I wanted to know is where do you find the date code on the gun itself?

Thanks again, my fault!!

Greg

Greg,

There is no specified location. If it exists, it will be with the rest of the proof marks. Date codes did not come into use until 1922.

Pete

You better like it because at that price it's going to be 'till death due you part'.

I dont know where they are buying their "entry level "spanish guns ,but I sure would like to sell them some of mine!! Greg as has been noted Belgian guns run from scrap iron to as good as any anywhere.I have several Belgian shotguns that are lower to mid level and I think I paid 500 dollars for the most expensive one(not nearly as pretty as that one) caveat emptor.

It used to be said on here by the cognocti that in buying guns Belgium or otherwise to buy the gun not the name. If the gun in question is especially well made inside and out, possibly as well or better than some of the work of London bests, shouldn't we be interested in it based on it's quality. Someone has to be the discoverer of an equal to a best gun to bring it into the light and all best guns don't originate in the UK. In many ways the dependence on an English name to determine value has become a crutch for the uninformed.

Too bad we can't run a blind taste test on guns to determine which are best made, best handling etc. I think you might find a lot fewer "English Bests" on top of the list. Subtract out the marketing hype about a best has to be stocked to the fence and a few more other guns will come to the surface as well. IMHO.

The "problem" with unnamed (guild) shotguns is, at some price point, most folks want a "name" and perhaps a little story to tell before disclosing (justifying?) how much they paid.

IMHO, not many folks are willing to drop $6k on a no name gun unless it's truly special.

YPPMV

True. Even though it may be a quality gun, the fact is it won't go for the price of a name gun. Unfortunately, that's the way it is with everything. If a person is just interested in the quality aspect of it and doesn't care if money will be lost down the road, then it is justifiable. However, why not just get one that will hold value or increase.

In my opinion the engraving on the gun in question is rudimentary for a Belgian engraver. I'm not saying that the engraving is bad but it could be done by a student with two years at the Leon Mignon engraving school.

RB

I was not arguing the particular virtues of this gun, just that the comments all seemed to be running to "if it ain't English don't buy it". I have seen a lot of English clunkers too. And $6000 doesn't an English name best procure unless it is from the dawn of time.

I think that in general, the bad rap on Belgian guns comes from really old ones, when a lot of American "hardware store" guns were made in Belgium. And sometimes given catchy names which bore close resemblance to famous makers. Others may have different experiences, but I can't think of any Belgian guns I've seen with modern (post-1924) proofmarks that I'd describe as junk, based on original quality. They run the gamut from very basic to very fancy (as do Brit guns, for that matter), but they all seem to be pretty solid.

As far as buying the name goes, there is some advantage to that. You'll pay more for something that says Francotte or Lebeau-Courally or Le Forgeron, but you know that you have not only a quality gun, but that it also came from a first class maker. And if you sell or trade it, that name will be worth something. You can look at a no-name Belgian gun, and it may indeed be every bit as good as a Francotte or a Lebeau of similar grade. But you also need to pay a lot less because it lacks what Rocketman, in his price estimating scale, calls "brand value". No brand = no brand value. The no namers can be very good buys in terms of "gun for the money", but they have to be--because all you're getting is the gun. And the fact is, they'll be worth less than a Brit gun of similar grade and condition with a name on it--even if the gun was in fact "made in the trade" (otherwise a guild gun) by outworkers in Birmingham, and the name only belongs to the company that sold it.

Larry.....You speaking from hands on experience or just off the top of your head ?

There's just something about that Belgium's lines that just doesn't look right, maybe how thick that wrist is in relation to the rest of the gun. I don’t know but that’s a hefty price tag for a gun that may or may not handle well in the field.


What are you looking to do with this gun, Greg?

jOe, As a collector of a few hi-grade investment quality guns, I agree with Larry's evaluation of this issue. What's your opinion?

Rocketman's well researched pricing analysis goes a long way to answering both the why and the how much of this discussion.

We live in a world where brand name has value. Anyone involved in consumer products understands that. Rocketman has tried to quantify that value in the specific area of our interest, older double guns.

Brand name is consumer shorthand for quality level, sometimes accurate and sometimes not.

But the net effect in the marketplace is if you are concerned about resale, include brand name in your calculation. If you are only concerned about product quality, do your research and form a conclusion about the specific item.

This subject begs the question for each of us. Why do we buy or collect the guns we do? For monetary gain? For monetary security? For status? For use? For personal satisfaction? The answers will be different for each of us, but the answers are a good guide for considering brand value....for guns and for anything else.

We hunt and kill because we want to go back, consciously or otherwise, to a time when we went to woods and water for food. The guns we carried were simpler, too, no clickety-clacks and push-button scope rangefinders, just doubles for feathers generally. Why else old hardware store guns in our pantheon of the greats? They're what our forefathers used, not Purdeys or A&Ns. I'm sort of a dinosaur compared to most others in my community, beating myself up roughing it when there are more comfortable and productive things to do. Looking around, when I'm gone before too long most of this will be, too. Our disappearance will be reflected upon as were the dinosaurs.

Guys,

I have a question. That BSS I mentioned earlier has side plates. I understand that the Browning Side locks (and box locks) were made in Japan, except for the high grade side locks that were made in Belgium.

Were would a side plated and heavily engraved BSS box lock have been made?

Not enough covering the top of my head to speak off it, Joe. I need to save what little covering I have left!

Let's see . . . I currently own a Lebeau-Courally and a Thonon. Have owned a few Francottes, although without checking my records to verify, I think a 25E was probably the highest grade. Couple Belgian-made Charles Daly OU's, likely by Masquelier from what I've read. Couple Centaures. Plus miscellaneous more basic guns from people like Manufacture Liegeoise and Fabriques d'Armes Unies. And at least a couple no-namers.

How about you, Joe? You surprised me (and probably a lot of folks) with some actual substance on a Scott thread. You have anything of substance to contribute here??

RCC, all the BSS I'm aware of were made by Miroku in Japan. I've never heard of a side plated BSS, unless maybe you were looking at a BSS Sidelock. They had a fair amount of engraving. Mostly scroll, although a few were game scene engraved.

I'm looking at a Masquelier from the 60's for about 1/3 of cost of the gun that started this thread. It looks darn near new. There is not a lot of information about this maker out there, other than that the quality can be on par with Francotte.

Anybody out there have first hand knowledge they would like to share about this Belgian maker?

I took a good look at this 20 ga. Masqualier at Robin Hollow a few months ago.
Masquelier

The gun was made in the 60s and seemed fairly well finished, and it handled nicely, even with the BTFE. I was looking for a Brit game gun so the BTFE and PG (and the price) killed any interest I was developing. From I what I came across, the BTFE and PG are standard on these more recent Masqueliers - not sure if that was an American market thing or not.

Here is a bit more.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20ma/a%20masquelier%20gb.htm

The Masquelier name has been tied to Britte
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...h=true#Post6342

Pete

Thanks, but I saw all of that in my preliminary search. Anybody have any hard data about models, American imports, quality of construction, etc...

Any lemons, reliability, things to be wary of?

I won't claim to have scoured the earth for an answer, but I came across nothing when I was asking the same questions that indicated any significant issues with Masqueliers.

ROMAC, I have a Masquelier catalog, no date, but I think it may be older than the 60's. In French, English, and German mostly, some pages only French and Italian. (It's a copy.) Shows a variety of models, hammer and hammerless, including the Superbritte (as Pete suggested). Doverham, my catalog shows several scalloped boxlocks, but none with the scalloping quite like that shown on your Robin Hollow gun. There are a lot of sideplated boxlocks, a la Francotte.

I also have an article by the late Don Zutz on Masquelier, from Shotgun Sports magazine. It's included in a book of his articles called "Grand Old Shotguns". Re American importers, Zutz writes: "Some of the Masquelier guns, both side by sides and over and unders, were handled by various American importers, especially the major New York City gun merchants, during the pre-WWII era." He then refers to the Daly "Commander" OU's as being Masqueliers. He also suggests that the Belgian-made guns marketed by Stoeger as Zephyrs immediately before and after WWII may have been Masqueliers. Comparing photos between the Masquelier catalog and a 1940 Shooters Bible, I can't say for certain that he's correct, but there are definitely very close resemblances.

Larry,

I am waiting for specs on the BSS. I cannot remember Browning ever side plating a gun, so I think that maybe they have a high grade Belgium SLE gun and don't know it.

If they do and know it and still want what they are asking I will own it. Even if there is something amiss with the gun, at their asking price I can still be out ahead after sending her to a good smitty.