Probably old news to everyone, but came upon this
1913 ad for the 20g Stevens Hammerless Repeating Shotgun No. 200, apparently with a 3" chamber
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1913/VOL_62_NO_12/SL6212020.PDF Researcher will likely let us know when the first 3" 20g shell appeared. The Widgeon Duck Club 3" shells loaded with 2 1/2 drams equiv. and 7/8 ounces of shot I believe were pre-WWI.
Yep, old news
Dave's previous comments
Three-inch shells have been around just about as long as cartridge shotguns have been around. Prior to repeaters, which needed a certain length shell to function reliably, there were a plethora of shell lengths. In my 1903 UMC catalogue there were 12-gauge paper shells 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch. The 16-gauge was available 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. The 20-gauge was offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. In those days these longer shells didn't pack a heavier payload, but more and better wadding for a better gas seal which many serious Pigeon shooters thought to be an advantage. The first time I see the longer shells packing a heavier load was around 1912 for the 3-inch 20-gauge for the famous Widgeon Duck Club Parker Bros. guns and the J. Stevens A & T Co. pump gun. These 3-inch 20-gauge shells packed 2 1/2 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot as opposed to the max load of 2 1/4 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot in the standard 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell of those days!!! Several of the early Ansley H. Fox graded 20-gauge guns, circa 1912-13 were chambered for the 3-inch shell of that period. WW-I and the rise of repeaters requiring a specific length shell to operate reliably did away with this plethora of shell lengths briefly.
Wards auctions just sold two incredibly rare boxes of early 3" 20 gauge ammo, 7/8 and 1 ounce. One box sold for $804.00 and the other sold for $237.00. I think the item numbers are 1023 and 1030 and are still listed and pictured on the website. In the teens, Parker Brothers offered 3" 20 gauge guns, warning customers that 3 inch 7/8 and 1 ounce loads are not recommended and are not available from ammunition companies. However, the Ward auction proves otherwise, although these shells may be later than the Parker Brothers pamphlet. In the same period that Parker Brothers warned against the 1 ounce loads, they were honoring orders for 20 gauge guns test patterned with those exact loads!
I recently acquired a model 200. Researcher was kind enough to share his knowledge of these interesting 3" 20ga. guns w/me. The forged take-down spanner is incorporated in the magazine tube as it's cap!
As noted in another thread, the shotgun version of the Win 1885 Hiwall was only offered in 3" 20 ga. chambering. No "repeating problems," there!
Yes, long shells had a following, especially in the pre-WW-I days. From my collection of old ammo catlogues Peters seems to be the only company to regularly offer extra-length versions of their modern progressive burning powder High Velocity loads --
The sporting collectibles market seems to be holding up pretty well, as I only got three of the seven little items I bid on from Wards and the two boxes of 3-inch 20-gauge shells I bid on sailed past and way past my comfort zone. The two-piece box of standard length Peters 20-gauges with the Red Head on the label puts shooting Nice-Shot into perspective at $1050!!
Reaearcher, do you know whether that little Peters motto "steel where steel belongs" in the ad has anything to do with the construction of the shells themselves? Were they perhaps reinforced by steel in the case head?
It seems from my collection of old ammunition catalogues that by the teens at least Western Cartridge Co. featured their "Locked with Steel" reinforced heads in both their Field and Record shells; Remington-UMC advertised "Steel Lined" for their Nitro Club and Arrow Shells by 1910; and Peters Cartridge Co. had their "Steel Where Steel Belongs"; all various styles of steel reinforced heads. In the Western cartridges the steel actuall locked in the base wads.
These boxes of extra length Arrow shells are by Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge Co. which puts them in the 1911 to 1916 time frame. The company name added Inc. on January 14, 1916. They can be narrowed a bit more the March 12, 1912, U.S. Patent date.
c. 1909
Partial bag during a late October waterfowling trip nearby the shores of the St Lawrence river in northern NY. Gun is a 32" straight grip Parker VH with heavy 32" barrels and factory chambered to 20 gauge/3-inch. The load was BCC factory shells with 1-1/16 oz of #4 bismuth. From this admittedly limited test I'd say those purists who bought 20 gauge, long-barreled, tightly choked Fox HE's and Parkers back in the day, knew what they could do if pointed right. Silvers
My old VH Parker 32" 20 was ordered to be patterned with one ounce 3" and 3 drams of bulk smokeless. It is serial number 153,333. Does anyone here own my old gun? I would like her back.
A Parker Bros. in the 153xxx range would be a circa 1910 gun according to the tables in
The Parker Story. None of the North American ammunition makers I have information on were offering more than 7/8 ounce of shot and 2 1/2 drams of DuPont Bulk smokeless powder in their 20-gauge shells, regardless of length, in those pre-WW-I years. I wonder what the pressures would have been with 3 drams of DuPont Bulk smokeless powder and 1 ounce of shot in a 20-gauge case?
With the advent of progressive burning smokeless powders in the early-1920s we got 1 ounce 20-gauge loads.
The I've got this box --
No mention of progressive burning powder or non-corrosive priming, so I'd guess the teens of very early 1920s?!?
Silvers, as you almost certainly know, the biggest advocate of the 3" 20 guage "magnum" loads in the mid-20th Century was gun writer Francis Sells.
He pushed the 3" 20 mainly as a "specialized" waterfowl gun with longish barrels and custom chokes, not as a generalist gun as it has been sold since then. IMO it is better for the use you put it to than shooting upland game, where it too often becomes a lame substitute for proper amounts of practice with efficient 20 guage loads.....
That VH is a two barrel set, #2 frame, both barrels are 32" with tight chokes, and the 20 gauge barrel is heavier than the 12. The reason I wrote it was a limited test is that I found this Parker in April, and the St Lawrence river gig in October was the first I had her out waterfowling. The gun was made for water and that's where she dunn good with those BCC 3-inch 20 gauge shells. Yep I read Francis Sell years ago and I liked how he stuck with data, not much subjective as with some current gun writers. Most here know I'm mainly a Fox guy. I call this Parker my Super 20 Parker because she's probably the closest I'll ever get to a 20 gauge Super Fox. Silvers
Researcher, I reviewed the order for #153,333 and find that the order, contrary to what I reported, does not specify the one ounce load. I am searching for the 20 gauge order that does specify that load. I am amazed at the 1 1/8 ounce box you posted a picture of. That is one rare box, probably scarcer than the boxes that sold at Wards this month.
One of my favorite waterfowl guns is a straight grip, 32" Damascus Parker DH made in 1919 on a No. 2 frame. I weighs 8 pounds even and is choked .027 in both barrels. It has 3" chambers and I shoot Federal Tungsten Polymer 3" 1 1/4 oz loads (I bought about 60 boxes of these on closeout at Cabelas so I am somewhat commited to the combination!).It digests these loads without a whimper and is very pleasant to shoot. Though "theoretically" inferior, I do not notice any practical handicap versus a 12 bore with a similar loading. I also have a 7 pound 30" Model 21 20 gauge Magnum that I use on occasion in Argentina. A few years ago I took along 6 boxes of lead 3" 1 1/4 oz #6 lead 20g Magnums and they performed very, very well on 75-80 ducks I shot with them.
I've been on the hunt for one of the Stevens 3 inch 20 gauge pumps for ages, but I want one with at least a 30 inch barrel. The few I've had a chance at have all been 26 or 28. The dream gun would be the 32 inch model, can't be many of those out there.
Destry
I'm not sure when the current 3" 20ga load appeared, but in the 1940 Shooters Bible--which lists all the shotshells available from, I think, all the American ammo makers--there are no 3" 20's listed. There are some 1 oz 20ga loads, and at least a couple of them (Xpert Super Trap and Leader Super Speed) are in 2 1/2" hulls.
The 3-inch Magnum 20-gauge was a post WW-II item. I think the first commercial listing was the Magnum Model 21 in the January 2, 1954 Winchester catalogue. However, there are no 3-inch 20-gauge shells listed in the January 2, 1954 Winchester Ammunition catalogue and price list!?! The Olin brothers and their buddies had been playing around with 3-inch 20-gauge Model 21s for some time before that. In the 1955 Winchester ammunition catalogue the 20-gauge 3-inch Mag. is offered with 1 1/8 ounce of Lubaloy #6 or 1 3/16 ounce of Lubaloy #4. That year the 2 3/4 inch "magnum" shells were introduced with the 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge. The 3-inch 20-gauge Mag. offerings remained the same through the 1959 price list. For 1960 the 3-inch 20-gauge magnum with 1 1/4 ounce of chilled shot was added to the offereings, while the Lubaloy loads were still 1 1/8 and 1 3/16. The Winchester/Western offerings in 3-inch 20-gauge shells remained the same thru 1968 where my old catalogues play out.
If anyone would like to buy that box of Remington - UMC Arrow 20 Gauge, 2 7/8" #6 shells that Researcher has pictured can buy them here:
http://members.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?gun_id=100197944&pop_up=1For sale on Gun's Int'l for $175.00. 10 bucks to Dave if anyone here buys them.
I hope I haven't bent any rules doing this.
Jolly