It is a nice Italian made Sidelock with German Krupp barrels. Early Gun it appears to me.
The "1944" on the right barrel flat jumped out at me - wartime gun?
Choked 0.4 mm on the right barrel and 0.7 on the left.
Nice gun, though it almost could be passed off as a lupara, its barrels are so short.
He was maxed out so I posted the last picture.
27 inch barrels, sweet!!!
Mike
Any clues as to maker? Were small Italian shops still turning out high-end shotguns in 1944? Was the proofhouse still functioning?
Welcome Jerry.
More than likely a craftsman in the Gardone Val Trompia region. It is purported that there was some dating scheme from the mid 1930s till 1943(maybe it was Beretta only???) and there's a table floating around here somewhere with the date code from 1945 hence. So yes as far as I know the proofhouse(s) were active in 1944 and the absence of a dating scheme in 1944 sort of confirms that stamp for the date. Post 1950 the proof stamps were surmounted by an encircled star so the surmounted crown dates the longarm prior to 1950. There seems to be plenty of diameters to go around so either the tubes or tubeset experienced proof a couple of times, maybe sourced from the craftsmen in Liege or some other gunmaking center that was churning out Krupp steel tubes during WWII, or at some later date there was a reason for re-submission to the proofhouse. I can't remember when the bore in a rhombus stamp arrived on the scene. Low serial number though and probably points to a small Gardone Val Trompia craftsman who hung out his shingle either just before or during WWII.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
My bad on the "short" barrels - must have been the perspective in the photo.
Still a very nice gun - excellent figure in the wood.
Dave (or anybody) what do those choke restrictions translate to in the usual terms like full, modified, etc?
Raimey is correct. It was proofed in Gardone.
Starting around 1932 Krupp barrels became common place on Italian guns.
Italy signed an armistice on Sept 3, 1943. Though fighting continued well into 1945. Exactly when Gardone was liberated, I am not sure.
Judging by the sling this gun was meant for Europe. It may not be a mistake that there is no maker's name on this gun. Partisan activities in the north included many reprisals.
Pete
The 18,3 on the right barrel is bore size of .720 the 17,9 is choke or .704. On the left barrel 18,5 is bore or .728 and choke is 17,6 or .692.
I would say full and modified.
Peter:
Nice addition with the armistice date. Possibly supports why any previous dating ceases in 1943. But by 1945 they had a new dating system:
Have you any info on the sourcing of the Belgian produced Krupp tubes by the Italians circa 1932? I too think the firearms merchant wanted no hints or trace of the actual craftsmen. I suppose that if one had the locks off that there might be a touch mark on the frame or locks to point toward a particular maker, who too may have been just a subcontractor.
Does the tubeset weigh 1.432 kg?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
I think the politics of time played a large role. Mussolini was in power in Italy. Hitler was just coming into power in Germany. They had a mutual admiration going.
Who actually made the barrels is something I can not answer. I would think custom house records of the time would tell the story, but doubt they survive in either country.
I know Beretta starting offering military munitions shorting after they started using Krupp barrels. Later, after the armistice, Beretta was still being forced to supply Germany. At the same time, they claim to have been supplying the resistance. Before the Germans, left all records at Beretta were destroyed. So it would be hard to tell from that perspective as well.
I clearly see 1944 stamped on the barrel flats. I take that to be the proof date. I do not know why, but it is not uncommon to see some Italian guns stamped with the actual date rather than a date code.
Pete
The following is a little speculation on my part.
The forend looks a lot like the forend on my current French 16ga sxs, a prewar St. Etienne gun, right down to the checkering pattern. The rest of the layout looks a bit like some Belgian guns I've seen.
What about the gun having been furnished in the white by a Belgian firm to someone in Italy, who then finished it and had it proofed in Italy?
Dave, I think you are right on the Belgian origin. Belgian firms produced many guns to be finished up in other countries. It would be interesting to see if the ejector mechanism in the forend has any marks on it. Receiver looks Belgian.
Second thought is that the barrels seem rather poorly struck. Really can't say when this was done, so it may have no bearing on origin.
Dave, thanks for the "translation" on chokes.
Gardone was liberated right at the end of April, 1945. I believe that units of the US 10th Mountain Division crossed Lake Garda and claimed the honor, but some accounts say Italian partisans were in control when they got there. 10th Mountain was looking for Mussolini, who had escaped to the Lake Como area earlier. Interesting book about this period is a memoir by a machine gunner in 10th Mtn. named Robert Ellis. It is called "See Naples and Die."
Ellis remembers 10th Mtn. finding a cache of German-seized fine Italian civilian shotguns in Bolzano; 10th Mtn. members tried to ship them home but many were snagged by the evil REMFs. Could this be one of them???
Ellis had to settle for a couple of Italian revolvers, probably Model 1889s, and could never find ammo for them!
I recently had the somewhat melancholy pleasure of driving a Smart thru the very tunnel on the Lake Garda shore north of Malcesine where a large number of 10th Mtn. troopers were killed and wounded by a German 88 that exploded in the tunnel while they were in it. Hard to imagine the violence that lovely area saw in WWI and WWII when you are just a tourist there.
Wow, this is a good amount of information to process. Is there something else I can take a picture of or show that can help you guys out more? I'm assuming based on the information given, there is really no way to tell at this point... Is there anyone that could give me a range of value by any chance? Thanks again for everyone's help!
Jerry
Peter:
I can't recall but when did Italy join the International Proof Commission/Conference. I think it in 1920 or was just after WWI? It may have been on or just prior to December 30th, 1923 when proof became compulsory. The effective date was October 16th, 1924. I have seen dates as early as 1910 when Royal decrees were enacted for proof rules. I believe it was post 1928 that Beretta sporting weapons wear the touchmarks of the Gardone Val Trompia proofhouse. Considering economics and the uncertainty of War, I would look there 1st for a sourcing possibility. Now there are Beretta examples of wartime pistols that wear Belgian touchmarks. And as you note post WWI the Germans had a heavy hand in Belgium and by WWII there were strong connections to Italy. So a Beretta-Liege sourcing line did exist. It is interesting that the "12 c" in the rhombus closely resembles the Belgian & English chambre stamp. The Star holds significance with the Italian Republic and the change from the crown to the star is more than likely found there.
http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/marchiit.htm . It is difficult to find info on the older proofhouse touchmarks and the Italian variant is no exception. But it appears that there are permutations, or different combinations, which note the progression of the proof effort. On the right side it appears that the orientation of a paired set of a Crowned P.S.F.(Polvere Senza Fumo-smokeless powder), Crowned FINITO and Crowned Gardone Val Trompia proofhouse touchmark of a brace of crossed rifles coupled with an anvil & hammer would note a longarm submitted in the final state while the absence of a Crowned FINITO would give a longarm submitted in a state of in the white. So I wonder if a longarm submitted in the white & in the final state would have a brace of similar stamps. In the 3rd row of the 2nd column are the stamps of a smoothbore submitted in the final state. During 1944 everything was all 6s & 7s and it is possible that the longarm was sourced in the white from the Belgians but I would expect to see some preliminary Belgian marks but they may be hidden or have been worked off. But considering price point for Krupp steel, I'd say that most of the Krupp steel tubes on price point weapons, even in the U.S. of A., were procured from the craftsmen in Liege as they addressed mechanization early on and had much lower wages.
Looks like he is making a stab at the Belgian marks,
http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/probelg.htm, as well as others.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Jerry, do you have any info on the provenance of this gun, i.e. how it got to the US and when? Former owner any help?
(I would BET this gun is a so-called "GI bringback." Be very interesting to be able to prove it!).
Hello Mike,
No, I don't have much history on this gun, but from what I was told, it was handed down at least two generations, one of whom brought it back from Italy (the person I got it from was Italian). But that doesn't neccessarily mean it's Italian, right? I also got a Rottweil from them, which also has proof marks all under the barrels, but that one is made in the late 70's. Thanks for the info guys, please keep it all coming!
Jerry
You've obviously been re-reading my favorite novel- "The Godfather"--Michael's two Sicilian bodyguards carried short barreled shotguns with slings in the scenes staged in Sicily near Corleone (Heart of the Lion)--Also the name may come from their usage by Sicilian shepards against wolves- Lupo- is wolf in both Italian and the Sicilian dialect-- Che ti dice la Patria--
Peter:
I can't recall but when did Italy join the International Proof Commission/Conference. I think it in 1920 or was just after WWI? It may have been on or just prior to December 30th, 1923 when proof became compulsory. The effective date was October 16th, 1924. I have seen dates as early as 1910 when Royal decrees were enacted for proof rules. I believe it was post 1928 that Beretta sporting weapons wear the touchmarks of the Gardone Val Trompia proofhouse. Considering economics and the uncertainty of War, I would look there 1st for a sourcing possibility. Now there are Beretta examples of wartime pistols that wear Belgian touchmarks. And as you note post WWI the Germans had a heavy hand in Belgium and by WWII there were strong connections to Italy. So a Beretta-Liege sourcing line did exist. It is interesting that the "12 c" in the rhombus closely resembles the Belgian & English chambre stamp. The Star holds significance with the Italian Republic and the change from the crown to the star is more than likely found there.
It is thought that Italy has some form of proof house as early as the 16th century. But you must remember that Italy did not exist as a nation.
Brescia was privately operated by 1910. In 1920 the government opened the Gardonne proof house and the Brescia proof house in 1921. Dec 30, 1923 the proof laws were signed. They took effect on Feb 8, 1925. The provisionally proofed shotguns were done at 14,700 psi.
There was some ability to proof an arm that had not been sold around 1920 until Sept 1, 1921. These guns were stamped "BPD".
The 12 C in a rhomus / diamond is not an Italian proof mark, but the Belgian gauge designation given to shotgun proofed using black powder. There was no Belgian export mark until 1924. The English bore designation would not have the C (for choke).
Beretta had been selling Scott and other English made shotguns up until the early 1930's, perhaps later.
Pete
"C" in the post 1887 and pre-1925 British parlance was for chamber if I'm not mistaken & "LC" was for long chamber.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Can anybody respond to Peter's common-but-hard-to-answer question about value, or is there a source for estimating the value of this gun short of looking at every pretty no-name sidelock sold on the internet this year?
I guess my first question would be: are you looking to INSURE it, or SELL it? If selling, do you need to sell it fast, or can you wait for a "better" price?
In my opinion, you might sell it at around $2K. It should not have any barrel problems or stock problems, which we don't see mentioned. Similar Belgian guns might bring that or 500 more. I still do not understand the barrel finish as it is somewhat crude.
Daryl, I'm not looking to sell it quick, I dont mind waiting for a fair asking price with a fair offer matching. I'm not hurting for money at the moment, but part of the fun is finding out who made this thing, and the history behind it. At the moment, I have it valued close to what I paid for it just because I didn't know what else to reference.
Jerry
bump for more help please! =)
Bug..It is a nice no name Italian SL...not sure it worthy of the up grade to MasterPiece..as you have it listed for sale
franc
Has the look of a French man to me. Possibly Belgian . I also think the proof marks are later ,no real evidence just a feeling ,from looking at the pictures. Proof in France was optional until 1960 so hence my suspicions .
The Krupp barrels are a conumdrum to me. It seems to me that Krupp would have been in no position to supply steel, let alone barrels, for sporting arms during that period and for quite a while before and after.
So were the Belgians or Italians ever producing (possibly Krupp) steel for the Germans for their war machine?
Proof in France was optional until 1960 so hence my suspicions .
Although proof of civilian arms was voluntary (but official, with a proofhouse in St. Etienne and later one in Paris) from 1895-1960, I have never seen a French shotgun that did not have proofmarks. Anyone else??
Well, you've seen and I've seen Sauer doubles with proof dates of 11/44 and 12/44, so who's to say Krupp didn't make the barrels? I remain bewildered by the fact that the Germans, in the middle of an existential war on three fronts and governed by a strict dictatorship, continued to allow the manufacture civilian sporting guns right up until the enemy was coming over the hill next to the gun factory. I mean, how many civilian sporting guns did (insert name of American gunmaker) make in 1943 or '44? Few, if any.
I'd speculate the barrels were made some time (maybe a year or two) before the gun got to the Italian proof house.
Peter has said it before and prior to WWI the Germans had a large footprint in Liege and tubes were being churned out to supply the world. It appears that proofhouse facilities did not close as there are sporting weapons with 1945, 1946, etc. I can't recall a 1947 stamped sporting arm. Also who applied the dates, I cannot say.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Given you've seen '45 and '46 but no '47 Liege guns, would it not be fair to deduce that in '45 and '46 the manufacturers were working off stockpiled barrels produced some time earlier and only put together and submitted for proof in those later years, and that by '47 those stockpiled barrels had been used up? And, along those lines, would it not also be fair to similarly deduce that this particular Italian gun was similar, in that the barrels were made earlier and only finished up and submitted for proof in '44?
I can't see where it was not possible and even probable that the German made barrels were supplied to Italy & others well before any of the WW2 activities started and rather think that the barrels in question were just that .. supplied at an earlier date and the "1944" ONLY reflects the time that the gun was proved.
I too think there were stockpiles and the sporting arm production continued at a snail's pace. Also I was referring generally to the proofhouses of Liege & Suhl and possibly a few others. As usual my mind fails me as I didn't have it written on the back my hand but after a search I found some 1947 dated sporting arms. Most during this period that I have seen were Sauer and were in the possession of Russians. Now I'm equating Sauer's sourcing of tubes to Liege.
Sauer 354460 December 1946
May 1947
September 1947
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I've looked thru my lifted Simson images and have also found some from 1946 & 1947, all of which were in the possession of the Russians. Remember after the war reparations were made by Germany to Russia and I would say that is one of the main reason that Sauer & Simson 1945 forward examples are found in Russia. I've read accounts that after the late 1930s and up until the end of WWII that the Krupp steel effort was diverted solely for the war effort(Krupp did not make sporting arms tubes, only the steel from which the tubes were drawn). Sauer had huge stockpiles of tube steel and that the 3 Ring stamp was very liberally applied. Post WWII it has been said that the stamp might even be found on bicycle tubes???? Krupp and Sauer paired up to develop and produce a weapons grade steel for sporting arms and some suggest that the 3 Ring suggest more of a Sauer origin/effort more so that that of Krupp. Also that there were so many tubes with the 3 Ring stamp that sporting weapons with the 3 Ring stamp are found on late 1950s examples. Where Sauer sourced their sporting arms during WWII, for now I cannot say. I think it was in the early 1950s that the 4 Ring(IZH 50A) stamp arrived on the scene.
Given as a 1946 Simson example
Given as anther 1946 Simson example
September 1946 dated Simson
April 1947 dated Simson
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Ah, Brother L.F. Cox you are on track and I really need to move all this stuff to a Krupp Steel thread or something of the like. Also I did find a Albert Wilhelm Wolf dated October 1945. One thing I have noticed and really haven't seen a large enough sampling to make a probability call, but it appears that between 1946 & 1947 the date shifted from the underside of the left tube to the underside of the right tube.
Albert Wilhelm Wolf Suhl October 1945
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Hey guys,
So is it misleading to have this gun labelled as a 1944? Raimey, those are beautiful pieces you have there!!!
Jerry
Nah, I wouldn't think so. I think the 1944 is more of a date that a serial number, assembly number or anything of the like. I'm not sure on the Italian proof facilities, but I'm highly confident that the German proof facilities were closed in the Summer of 1945 and reopened in September or October of 1945. I've read accounts that the Russian occupants under Major General Ivan Sazonovicha Kolesnichenko, Chief of the Soviet military administration in Thuringia, withheld black powder to prevent sabotage or an uprising. Either before the end of WWII or after October 1945, only black powder was available.
Right off, I can't recall seeing a German sporting weapon proofed in early 1945, but it is possible.
Below is one of the 1st Merkel(200E) to roll off the line and look whose initials are on the rifled tube; LK - Louis Kelber. Accounts give that Merkel was using surplus military blanks.
November 1945.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I haven't really found a thread for attaching the images of post WWII Suhl examples with an emphasis on the touchmarks. Anyone have any interest or a clever name for a thread? Yes, Marc that includes you.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I'll take the gun for $1200, evidently in the "tops" range of value according to th readers here. PM me if you wish to accept.
IMO, that's a VERY fair offer.
I'm sorry, but at that price, I can not accept your offer. I paid a good amount more than that, and would be loosing too much at this point.
That's why if you don't know most of the time it pays to ask before you buy.
HomelessjOe, I bought this shotgun to help a friend. I'm not sure if you understand a concept as such, judging from your posts, but it was not something that I was willing to try to negotiate with a grieving person. I'm sorry, but your opinion is not helping nor appreciated.
Jerry
I don't expect you can get the $1200.00 offer since you have disclosed that the left barrel is pitted.
My appraisal has fell to $750.00
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=260704#Post260704
How badly pitted is the barrel ?
