Is it worth the hassle and expense to get one of these? It seems that every seller, vendor, dealer has a different take on the legalities of such a license, completely unique unto themselves of course.

Pardon my ignorance, but in a perfect world, or at least a perfect United States, does this license allow a gun that is 50 years or older to be transfered directly to the holder, essentially bypassing the FFL? Even if the original transferer does not have either?

KK,

I found it very worthwhile and never had a problem dealing with folks who understood it's purpose to collectors and limitations which rarely conflicted with my purchasing preferences in vintage sporting arms. I will be renewing mine soon.

jmc

In a word, yes. But technically you are not bypassing the FFL, because you are the FFL. Also keep in mind that certain states (the usual suspects) have laws that render the license useless.

I had one for a few years, when I was into surplus military rifles. It was fun because I could order at wholesale out of the catalogs and get piles (quite literally) of guns in the mail. I'd buy, sell, trade...postage was cheap....one could mail a rifle for $10 or $12 those days. Not anymore.

It was not really a hassle to get, just a simple form IIRC. The paperwork is dead simple too, much easier than a 4473. You just record the transaction in your bound book. What a lot of guys don't like is being subject to inspection by the BATF. Most reports are that the agents are professional and courteous, but nevertheless...some don't wish to deal with the possibility of inspection. I was never inspected.

It was worth having for the military rifles, and the discounts from Midway, Brownells, etc. However I am not sure I would get one if I was only doing a handful of purchases each year.

I'll add that I found it particularly worthwhile because I was adding a few old doubles to my collection on an annual basis. An FFL transfer in my area is about $30 not to mention the extra handling of the packaging and gun by someone who likely wouldn't appreciate the guns as much as I do. $50 for 5 years is a bargain IMO.

Thank You, gentlemen for your replies.

I would be using it for just a few transactions a year. Completely self-serving.

An example is that, in the wonderful state of Massachusetts where I live I cannot order brass or primers from out of state because they can be used to create a harmful object, i.e. a bullet/cartridge/round.

I'm almost sure this is written to include powder and actual bullets, but I've found vendors who have overlooked it, if it indeed even exists. But certainly powder and bullets can also be used in the makeing of a harmful object!

I've got a lovely Alexander Henry 450 3/4" BPE that I need to learn to make reloads for and I can't get any brass! A fellow at Buffalo Arms informed me that if I got a C & R they would be able to legally ship the brass to me.

Of course, I'm sure the odd firearm here and there would be purchased to be directly shipped to me now and again as well.

But the sad thing is that right now, the main reason I would obtain one is so I could legally buy some "old-fashioned" brass and get it shipped to me.

How sad is THAT?

It is pretty sad, but until you can get yourself to a free state, it is probably worth getting the C&R to get over this hurdle. It will also save you a few bucks between possible discounts and savings on FFL fees. Just keep in mind the inspection provision, as I mentioned above.

You can't even order brass?? Really? I knew it was bad there, but for heaven's sake, that is insane. The moonbats really have taken over.

That is it's intended use. It is a collectors license, not a 'for profit' business license.
The number of transactions you do makes no difference,,, but that it is self serving is the way it should be used.

If you start to buy & sell with it beyound a very gray area of what would be considered a collectors/accumulators hobby (making it a for profit business in other words),,better trade the 03 in on an 01FFL.


You never have to deal with 4473 forms or NICS checks. Those are set aside for 01FFL's.

You do keep a bound book of aquisitions and dispositions of the C&R's.
Most C&R holders never see a compliance check but they are subject to them non the less.
Follow the rules, keep the paper work in sparkling shape and up to date and you'll have no problems.

Aside from discounts, having shipments come right to the license address, not having to pay a transfer fee thru an 01FFl, being able to purchase at a shop or gunshow on the 03FFL w/o 4473 & NICS are some of the advantages.
Not all 01's will accept them and some State laws might not allow the purchase.

Lots of good info posted so far but here is another forum if you decide to go the 03 FFL route.

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums

Like others have said you must keep a bound book (for all acquisitions and dispositions that occur while you are licensed) and sometimes have to point out to 01 FFL's the 50 years old OR on the C&R list but other then that its easy.

This might sound like paranoia, but does possession of one of these licenses essentially open up your entire house to scrutiny by the BATF or just your relevant book(s)?

I have only heard of a few times that a compliance inspection for a 03 FFL was done and in each case the option was given to bring your bound book to their office and not have to deal with them in your home.
If your doing something in your home you would rather not have the government see however (book making for instance)I would not recommend to get a FFL as it will give them an excuse to skip the warrant part.

Not book making; my entire home is a gigantic meth lab.

HAH! No, nothing felonious going on here.But just as I mentioned one crazy Mass law rekated to firearms, it seems that others were passed in the last 15 years or so while I wasn't paying attention.

I've got loads of centerfire rounds, many different handgun calibres, from my reloadinig days. A shooting friend also had an FFL for awhile, and I took advantage of his discounts for somefirearms and rifle ammunition - case of .45/70 here, a case of .30/30 there. Also, thousands of .22 ammo. Lots of smokeless powder. This stuff was bought in the early 90's, and I never gave it a second thought.

I got into blackpowder the past 10 years. I've got maybe 20 lbs of it, along with other related stuff.

All of this apparently makes me a dangerous gun nut with a private aresenal in the eyes of the state.

I just don't want to deal with govt. scrutiny.

BATF has the power to inspect your books and applicable guns. From what I have read, the compliance inspections are primarily concerned with record keeping, and in certain cases determining if the 03 FFL holder is conducting business on the license (which is of course a big no-no). The agents typically want to make sure all pertinent information present, and on occasion may want to examine particular firearms to be sure they are being recorded properly.

This is just what I've read/been told. Like I said, I never got inspected.

If you get a license today do you have to list all the guns you previously purchased in your books? And what about selling any of the old guns, do you have to list them too?

I have two log books. One book for guns purchased before I got a C&R and then one for guns bought under C&R. I figured if there was any question that two books should satisfy the BATF. I am sure that most if not all the earlier guns could be confirmed with effort by the FFL who recorded that transaction but figured that it was simpler to keep good records of my own.

I have never heard any horror stories about C&R inspections. I have heard of people unwisely trying to use a C&R to do business for profit and pretend to be a hobby or collector. Worse for them were the sales taxes and income taxes that they had not paid and were required to pay with interest and penalities. Stupid people do stupid things.

My local leagal law enforcement officer has been a bit of a jerk about my C&R. He thought that he should have the right to inspect my collections, at his discretion and whim. I explained that he was welcome to inspect with proper paper work in hand, or he could just contact BATF and have them do it for them. That made him very cross. When he complaind to the mayor, his boss, he was told to either get a warrent if he had cause or quit bothering me. It might have helped that the Mayor my next door neighbor, had just visited me and seem most of my accumulation. That has been over two years ago and he has not bothered me since. I do make sure I drive the speed limit in town. Some people have sharp knives and longer memories.

The 03 bound book is for recording acquisition and disposition of firearms purchased with that license. I have receipts from shops or private sellers for all firearms transferred thru an 01FFL receiver or sold to me locally by a shop holding that license. I also have receipts for payment of transfer fee from my FFL receiver. I do not "bind" or otherwise duplicate this material except that I have a bag of fotocopies in 1) safe, 2) glove compartment, 3) originals in safe deposit box. If the BATF wants to see that material they will have to use their own magnifying glass. I have only four or five records of purchase in my bound book. I see no reason why the BATF would ask for a general audit of firearms acquired by legal transfer thru an 01 receiver as part of an 03 audit.

jack

You do not have to list C&R gun you purchased or sold before you got your license in your bound book.
However ANY C&R gun you acquire or dispose of (even if you did not use your C&R) must be entered in the bound book while licensed.

"Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios and relics." [27CFR §478.125(f)]"
Note the regulation makes no mention of how the firearm is acquired or disposed of.


If you sell a gun you acquired before you got your license,you can write "acquired before C&R" in the acquisition section-and the FFL you send the gun to.

My only C&R conversations/exposure with the CLEO is to hand him a copy of my renewal application and telling him no action is required on his part just the he received the copy as required.

+1. I have had a C&R for the past 12 years.

If you live in a real person state, a C&R probably makes sense, but if you live a a phoney baloney state such as California, as I do, probably not. The C&R does not exempt you from any of the California interstate transfer requirements, i.e. 10 day wait restrictions, unless you get a Certificate of Eligibility, but it costs about $70 for a annual license while the C&R is $30 for 2 years. If you buy enough interstate than the Certificate makes sense. The good part is that you can buy on the gun auctions and have it sent to your home without the usual crapolla. That being said I have bought one gun using the C&R, it was a Lefever junker that I parted out (only gun on which I actually made any money).However, I was left with the quandary of disposing of the stripped receiver. I requested assistance from ATF and the destruction requirements were ominous. So I found a collector who would take it off my hands. My single log entry was a wash.

By the way, ATF sends you a heavy stock card log for use in lieu of a bound book.

I have renewed my license,but it is more of a novelty now.

It seems that there is a C&R thread about monthly on this forum. Sometimes they make me paranoid and I go check to make sure I remembered to enter everything properly. My only "crime" if audited, would be that I put everything in the book even if after 1898. Of course with the Lefevers I collect anybody can tell you that the relationship between serial number and date of manufacture is suspect.
However, could we actually get a poll of the number of C&R owners who have actually been audited by the BATF? I don't mean harrassement by the local LEO's that has been rightfully exposed as just that above. That is not the first of those stories I have heard. I am just wondering what my chances for an audit are. I would also assume the BATF doing a C&R audit could care less about the 870 under my bed.

Since the BATF has no record of what I buy using it I would also assume that any audit procedure would either be initiated by a random draw, or information from 001 dealers indicating you are buying a lot more than a normal collector would be buying.

I am sorry to hear that California has replaced Hawaii as the least gun friendly state. In Hawaii we have to personally register each and every (even C&R)gun at the police station. It takes me an hour to explain that a Barber and Lefever conversion from a muzzle loader may have two serial numbers, one the original and one placed by Lefever when converted. Yet somebody can walk in with a black gun that could be converted to a fully automatic weapon in 15 minutes with a nail file, and walk out within 5 minutes because they have seen hundreds of them.

"Since the BATF has no record of what I buy using it I would also assume that any audit procedure would either be initiated by a random draw, or information from 001 dealers indicating you are buying a lot more than a normal collector would be buying"

That used to be the case,however on the last 2 renewals they ask for number of acquisitions from C&R holders just like 01 FFL's.
I think that its more of a random draw thing as well.

To get a good poll on in person audits you might do better on a C&R board : (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums )

I have heard of them doing it for C&R's but no real problems,especially if you can opt for the in office one.

DrBob, I would second the advice to look at Parallax's forums, or Gunboards. Lots of hard-core C&R guys on those sites, and they occasionally post inspection recaps.

Keep in mind that the purpose of an inspection, should one occur, is to ensure good record keeping- the same reason they inspect 01 FFLs. What the ATF really, really does not want is for licensees to be buying guns and distributing them willy-nilly to whomever with no records.

With regards to the CLEO notification....unfortunately mileage may vary by what jurisdiction you live in. When I had my license I lived in Maine, and CLEO notification went to a sergeant in the State Police who I am sure could care less. I do wonder if one might have some flexibility in determining the CLEO...and select the one that would minimize the hassle (ex. state police or county sheriff instead of local police). I dunno.

At the end of my first C & R license I had what you might term as an audit, it was very quick, all they wanted was to verify that you were keeping proper records and how many firearms you acquired and disposed, probably to insure that you were not operating as a dealer. There really is not a problem in California with C & R licensees, it is simpler than holding an 01 license. a COE simplifies intra-state purchases on long guns, renewal is 22.00 per year. Handgun transactions must go thru the DOJ stupidity.

Can one do an "occasional" importation of a shotgun on a C&R?
nial

Can one do an "occasional" importation of a shotgun on a C&R?
I have imported 2 from Canada in the last couple of years. You have to do the ATF 6 form and have an importing agent. You cannot do it directly. However, the importing agent can then send a C&R eligible gun directly to you rather than a local 001 FFL.

BATFE does not send "agents" to do audits of FFLs or C&R holders. They send "investigators" or "compliance inspectors". BATFE "agents" are the personnel who have actual arrest powers and are sworn federal law enforcement officers. Just FYI as that whenever people reference the word "agent" in association with BATFE, people automatically think the guys breaking down doors, throwing in a flash bang, and putting some perp face down and arresting them. That's not going to happen if during an audit, your books are found not in compliance with federal regulations.