Good afternoon,
Some of you shared your expert knowledge with me almost 2 years ago concerning a special-order 20ga Francotte SxS two-barrel set in a trunk case that had belonged to my father. That expertise helped my brother decide to keep the gun for the grandchildren since it is essentially NIB and has the family initials in the engraving.
Since then the family has decided to sell an older Francotte (the serial number places it as a 1895 Medium Grade) that was my father's quail and dove gun. It is a very light 20ga SxS that appears to have been used pretty hard but well cared for. He reportedly bought it in the late 1950's - early 1960's from the Francotte factory/store while in Europe on business, and they modified it to fit him by adding an extension to the stock and fitting a hard rubber pad. They may have modified the chokes at that time, although that fact is a little less clear.
I would appreciate any help writing a good description of the gun and establishing a reasonable value in order to advertise it. I can post a few pictures and a description of it here if that would be appropriate. If not I would be able to email pictures and the description privately.
This is not an offer to sell. When I do that I will move the item to the classifieds section and carefully follow those rules.
Thank you for any assistance you may be able to offer.
Bruce,
I am glad you decided to keep your 2 barrel set for posterity. As regards the 20 gauge Francotte....I would seek Larry Brown's advice. Finally, what was your source for dates of production by serial number? I ask because I have an old Francotte sixteen gauge with 2 9/16 inch chambers that I would like to date. Let me know when you price the Francotte 20 ga.....I may be interested. Good luck with yours, they are splendid field guns designed for light loads.
Tom Regal
Hi Tom,
Gunshop.com had a list of serial numbers for high grade shotguns called "High Grade Shotgun Dates of Production". I have it downloaded, but it may still be at that URL. At the time of my last query a gentleman with the email of "darylh@xx.xx" helped me, but that email no longer works. I'll look for Mr. Brown; thanks for the tip.
Bruce
Galazan Catalog No. 9 has a listing for high grade guns by serial number which includes Francottes.
Tom McDevitt
Bruce, I'll be glad to help all I can, but there are certainly other folks here who are at least as knowledgeable as I am about Francottes. If you can post photos, we can probably help you figure out the grade and how to describe the gun's condition. And as indicated above, there may be some potential buyers here. This site's "for sale" board is a good place to advertise doubles.
Thank you for your generous offer to help me out.
Here's what I think I have:
"Francotte SxS 20ga Boxlock, good wood, 50%+ engraving coverage. Overall 80%+."
"Blued action; 27 1/2" barrels, current choking ic/m, barrels moderately pitted near muzzle, but pattern well; single trigger; half pistol grip stock, 15 1/4" LOP, 2 3/4" drop, factory-added stock extension and hard rubber pad, tiny registration cartouche on stock reportedly from WWII occupation; splinter forearm with gold initials. Matching numbers, 253xx Seriel # may place it as 1895/6 Medium Grade gun."
Bruce it is interesting that the proofs on the barrel flats are in accordance with the rules of 1924 and has what appears to be a proof date code of 1945 (the small case x on both flats. It could be that a new set of barrels were made for it. We need to see the proof marks on the action flats to be sure of its age. I cannot see what the gauge and chamber length is (the mark at the rear of the flats on both sides. I will try to sharpen the image to see if I can make it out. Jim
Hi Jim,
I don't know what the 'action flat' is, but I can take a picture from a different angle, under different lighting, or blow up a certain part of these pictures if that would help. I have bigger versions of these pictures, but am following the FAQ which specified this size. Let me guess if its this picture, which I've enhanced as much as I can without re-shooting the picture:
The controller of Proof was Hubert Charlier (* over U), who worked in that position from 1923 to 1953. The date code could a small x (1945)or a lower case alpha(1948), hard to tell. I see nothing on the barrel flats to indicate an earlier dating.
Does the water table show different markings?
Pete
Bruce the action flats or water table is the flat part of the action that the barrels fit against. it will have markings similar to the barrel flats. I downloaded your picture sharpened it and enlarged it the chambers appear to be 70mm or 2 3/4, I can't make out the gauge marking.
Jim
Thank you all for looking so carefully at the evidence.
The * over U is also on the flat part of the action that mates with this flat part of the barrels (is that the water table?). Inspection with the naked eye of the character in question is much more lower case alpha than small x: on the left barrel (in the picture) there's a curved portion of the character in the 7 o'clock position that looks like the left side of an alpha.
This makes for an interesting question about production date. Is there any question about the numbering system and the year associated with 253xx? How about style clues?
I looked at the marking under bright light and high magnification and the numbers on the barrel flats inside the oval are 20-70 on both sides. The small alpha does not appear at all, but the P.V under a bar and squiggle are the same, but there is a * over an AH and vertical bar over three chevrons that are different.
The PV under the Lion (thats what it is supposed to be) is the belgian nitro proof mark, the * over AH is an inspectors or controllers mark, the other mark is a Perron which is the mark of the Liege proof house. All indications are that the gun was made in the late 1940s. This site
http://site.voila.fr/guideliege/ has a lot of info but is in french, if you open it with Google you can translate it
Thank you for the additional information. I am accumulating very useful information for an eventual buyer. This is an interesting detective exercise.
I appreciate all the effort that has gone into providing this background. Based on your hard work I will ignore the serial # list and trust the much more persuasive proof markings and inspectors marks and date the gun to the 1940's.
That eliminates the easy "Medium Grade Gun" assessment based on the serial #. Is it necessary to identify a model number, or should I simply leave it up to the 'eye of the beholder' to determine it's 'grade'? That leaves the problem of finding 'comps' for pricing, but one step at a time.
Great reference at the cited web site (http://site.voila.fr/guideliege/) re: Auguste Francotte marks.
SHOCKER to me: I can't find a single mark on the gun, under strong light and 3x magnification, that looks like any of the marks attributed to that factory!! Our assumption that is is a Francotte was all based on word of mouth, and that may have led us astray. Its starting to look like the gun may have been bought from the Francotte dealership, and modified to fit my father by their workshop, but it is by some other Belgian maker.
That doesn't change the fact that its a very nice shotgun in a desirable gauge and style, but there is no marquee value. While not a catastrophe, it is disappointing.
What now, gentlemen? Can we put a reasonable value on a nice, used, unknown maker Belgian SxS, so that I can report that value back to the family and let them decide what to do next?
Francottes usually have an F with a crown on the bbl flats...are you sure this is a Francotte? Or perhaps the bbls were replaced, that would explain the date mismatch.
but there is a * over an AH and vertical bar over three chevrons that are different.
Well, you just took a turn... The *AH is from around 1900 or so. The list of controllers were assembled from memory by employees. They could not be sure of marks associated with controllers before about 1911. I have a 1906 source that talks about double letters, but does not give names or dates of employment.
So, it looks like the barrels came much later. But the action is older. So far you have not described a makers mark. Francotte used many different marks over this time period. They all seemed to revolve around an AF and crown.
Pete
My guess is that if it doesn't say Francotte anywhere on the gun, and especially since the proprietary Francotte proof (AF under a crown) isn't shown on the barrel flats, it's not a Francotte. Expect what you have is a Belgian "guild gun"--doesn't mean poor quality, but it does mean no name and therefore not worth as much. And because of the 20-70 in the sideways horseshoe or capital C, the gun (or at least the barrels) is definitely post-1924. A nice Belgian 20 with factory 2 3/4" chambers is still a gun that will attract interest, but certainly less than if it were a Francotte.
In your description, you mention pitting around the muzzles. Do you mean on the outside of the barrels or the inside? If on the outside and you post photos along with a for sale ad, you might want to try and get a decent closeup of the pitting so potential buyers will have a better idea.
OK, I'll kick off a starter price for discussion. Brand Value level five (BV5) for a Continental no-name gun. Original Quality grade six (OQ6) for a "fair to middlin'" BLE. Current Condition level three (CC3) for "significent use." BV5-OQ6-CC3 = $580 for a 12 bore SXS shotgun of "usual" configuration at USA retail. Give it 2X for 20 bore and you have $1160 for openers. Too little? Too much? Comparables?
I was fooled by my old eyes looking at the * over the AH, which I though looked the same as the AF under the crown that was on the verified Francotte. It was only when I put on the magnifier and put a very strong light on the flat part that it was clear that the marking was not what I thought it was.
I appreciate your coments about the value of a guild gun. The pitting is on the inside. I don't have equipment that will allow me to take a picture of it, but I certainly will make potential buyers aware of it in my ad.
The big question: after looking at several dealers' gun lists, a nice grade 'shooter' should be fairly marketable. Would $850 - $1,000 be the right price neighborhood for this gun (based on the pictures)?
Mickey D,
Thanks for the tip.. the Galazan catalog #9 places my gun as a 1920 model.
regards,
Tom
B in WV - the extent and depth of the pitting mentioned will have significent effect on price. If the pitting is very slight, you may be a little low and if it is extensive or deep, you may be high. The photos show me a pretty nice gun.
Thank you all. This is very interesting and will make a good background for whoever ends up with this gun.
I'll be trying for a very clear picture of the action flats after I get home from work and put up the best of the lot. At the same time I'll post the makers marks from the cited web site for side-by-side comparisons. I'm pretty sure I can come up with something usable.
I'm less sure about pictures of the pitting, but I'll try that too.
Here are some of the Francotte trademarks that have been used.
Pete
Here is the best photo I could get of the markings on the action flats. I don't see anything that looks like a Francotte trademark on here (or the barrel flats shown earlier). The other markings are the serial # and VERY faint/unreadable numbers inside the horseshoe/large 'C'.
These are all of the markings.
I believe I'm left with the identity as a 'Guild gun', possibly made around the turn of the century and rebarreled in the 1940's.
That leaves my final advertisement to read:
"Belgian SxS 20 ga boxlock, probable Guild gun, good wood,50%+ engraving coverage. Overall 80%+
Blued action; 27 1/2" barrels, current choking reportedly ic/m, barrels moderately pitted, but pattern well; single trigger; half pistol grip stock, 15 1/4" LOP, 2 3/4" drop, factory-added stock extension and hard rubber pad; splinter forearm with gold inlayed initials 'DL' or 'LD'."
Price will be determined soon and the gun posted on the classifieds page.
Thanks to everyone who helped with this detective story. I've learned a great deal and had some fun, too. IMHO, this is another example of what a great place this forum is!
Bruce, you should include that it's an ejector gun with factory 2 3/4" chambers. If the pitting isn't very significant--looks more like stains than pits--then I'd say $1,000 is somewhat low for the gun.
Bruce, you should include that it's an ejector gun with factory 2 3/4" chambers. If the pitting isn't very significant--looks more like stains than pits--then I'd say $1,000 is somewhat low for the gun.
Thank you for the additional comments. I appreciate your assitance and suggestions.
Why do you think it is a turn-o-the-century frame rebarreled? Since eliminating the serial as a Francotte, I'm much more inclined to see it as an OE 1948 gun - lock, stock, and barrel.
There is a comment on page two from PeteM about proof marks on the action flats. Its my only source for the info.
I hear him, but I have to say that there are some styling cues that make me think post war.
I look at the gun as compatible with Francotte "bottom grade" serial number range for the estimated date of manufacture. Sure looks like a Francotte, although I can't remember seeing a picture that identifies the extension rib too clearly. Is it a Greener crossbolt/extension or something else? We would also like to see a good picture of the single trigger. If it is a retrofit Miller or something similar it may add to the value. Another value consideration is "Would you like to own David Letterman's bird gun?"
I have to admit my ignorance (again). What is the 'extension rib'? The rib that runs along the top of the barrel terminates at the end of the barrel and does not extend beyond the chambers. Do you need to see a photo of that? I'll take the trigger picture, too, and post both of them as soon as you describe which parts you want to see (side, angled from bottom, barrels mounted on the action from the top?) I won't attempt to take the wood off the action to show the trigger mechanism - I don't have the skills or tools not to bugger up the screws.
I'm not sure what the reference is to David Letterman. Is there an inside joke here somewhere?
This gun appears to have a hidden third bite. That translates into a "lump" between the barrels that mates into a slot in the action face and the "lump" is locked down by a sliding bolt. The "hidden" references that the slot and lump are not visible when the gun is closed. "Third bite" refers to the "lump" as "third" after the two bites in the main, underbarrel lump. I don't recall the use of hidden third bites on BL of turn of the century vintage.
Miller single selective triggers usually have a unique three position safety selector (right-up, safe-middle, and left-down). A photo of the trigger and safety selector should clear this up.
The "DL" monogram clearly refers to former ownership by David Letterman - no question on that one (joke).
Bruce,
See the following website for some guidance (and in some cases pictures) regarding words and terms used in this email string.
http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#half
I agree with Rocketman that a hidden 3rd bite would be more typical of a newer gun, rather than something 100 years old. I've seen older Francottes with Greeners (both standard and concealed) and doll's head extensions, and even owned one that had both a doll's head and a hidden Greener. If it has the hidden 3rd bite, I'd toss in my vote with those who say the entire gun is from the post-1924 period, as the proofs on the barrels indicate.
Thank you for the link to gun terminology. I appreciate it.
I took pictures of the open action from the side to show the locking mechanism, and then the opening where the locking lever swings across the top when activated by the lever.
I also imaged the safety. The trigger shows well in the open action image. The safety is clearly original to the gun and has no lateral movement. The trigger is not hinged and also has no lateral movement.
I was also asked about the weight. It measures 5 pounds and 14 ounces on an accurate scale.
Note to web master. Please let me know if these are too big. I am aware of the FAQ about image size and am editing the images to show only the necessary detail to respond to the questions, but can reduce image dimensions if you wish.
Bruce,
You posted a small picture of the action flat markings. There is a mark above the *AH. Can you provide a clearer picture of that mark? It does not seem to conform to a proof house mark. I am guessing it may be a maker's mark.
On the action flat, there is that mark, then *AH which is the controller's mark pre-1924, the perron which indicates inspection of the breech, the lion over the PV which indicates nitro proof in use 1898-1968.
On the barrel flats left side top down. Barrel weight, 1.169 Kg (this was used to verify that tampering has not been done since the barrels passed proof) 2.57 lbs. This started in 1892, after 1924 fractional weights (eg 1.169.1) were no longer used. X or alpha , date stamp 1945 or 1948. * over U, controller Hubert Charlier, employed 1923-1953. Lion over PV, nitro proof, 1898-1968. Crown over ELG with star at bottom, acceptance of proof at Liège, 1893-1968. The last mark is the Gauge and Chamber length, 1924-current.
So there is no doubt in my mind, based on the proof marks the barrels have a latter date than the action. The original barrels were either damaged, liberated or simply lost after the war.
Pete
I studied the mark under a loupe and it looks very much like a five-pointed star over a conjoined A and H. I'm attaching the best picture my little digital camera can get, as well as a hand copy. Does this help?
BTW, I'm a fussy systems engineer in my own trade (very different from this thread), but am very impressed by the erudition and skill of this group. Thanks!
Bruce, the mark of interest is the one ABOVE the * over AH mark...are you saying it's also a * over AH?
This should clear up my poor description..
Can you get a close-up of that top mark?
Pete
My mistake about your question: the mark you identify as a possible makers mark is the same as on the barrel flats - a five-pointed star over a horizontal bar over a capital U.
Looking in front of the barrel flats, on the underside of the barrels themselves - any words, marks, or individual letters there?
Yes, there are marks on the bottoms of both barrels, on the round parts forward of the flats.
Both barrels have two 'V' s at right angles, one with a five pointed star over it (see hand copy). Are these marks meaningful: I had though they might be barrel vendor marks for a sub supplying parts to Francotte (or the action builder) since many gun parts were sub-contracted.
Very nice looking trigger blade, not similar to any Miller I have seen, including non selective models. Probably a factory installation in Europe. Its working qualities are much more important than its origin.
I will jump in and ask a "leading" question.
Is this possibly a Lard trigger? Think of an Elsie single trigger.
I am certain that Westley Richards used this trigger as well.
FWIW Dept-----I find it very unreasonable to find a single trigger of any design on a Belgian guild gun unless it is the result of a Journeyman's efforts to rise to Master. If this be the case, it is usual that no name would be on the piece.
The more I think on it, it pleases me to think that this gun was built by a Journeyman in the Francotte factory. If that be so, all the questions would be answered with sensible explanations.
It would have been carefully used by the makers family and if new barrels were needed, a piece of cake to get them from the factory.
Best,
John
I wish to add a final "Thank you" to everyone who brought their specialized knowledge and opinions to this discussion. I have learned a great deal and will pass this discussion along to whoever buys this gun.
Best regrads to all,
Bruce Low