The Scott thread from a while back had a bunch of nice Premiers in it.

I'd like to conduct a little informal study of them - what they looked like at certain dates, their features, etc.

If you have a W & C Scott Premier shotgun, hammer or hammerless, please some post some pics and details on this thread. The style and features of the hammerguns seem to differ quite a bit, and these differences seem to be gun by gun, rather than by year (at least from I've seen so far.)

Here are a few pics of mine:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/461530.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/461531.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/461532.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/461533.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/461534.jpg

It has 30" bbls and it weighs about 7.5lbs.

I'll get some more pics of my W & C Scott and post them with details.

I'm interested to see what we'll discover.

Thanks

OWD

ol' Russ had a nice one in his smaller "good stuff room" when I was at his house. I sure do miss the guy

Serial No. 41424 (1887) 12-Gauge

To the top - to the top!
Don't want good ol' H0melessj0ey to miss this opp0rtunity to post a picture of his W&c sc0tt PremeiR.
Its show time j0ey!

I don't know what grade my W C Scott SLE is but it's certainly a high one. I can't post pictures here but will email them to anyone who can.
Jim

Mr. LOw'ell I'm surprised you'd waste your time looking at these lowly Scotts. Mine does have some nice long barrels.

Ps...lOw'e I'm still waiting to see a picture of something you actually killed with your prized Beezley.

This seemed to be the right time, and place for you to post a pic of your long barreled Preemie j0ey!.
How about a nice close-up??????

If you can send them to me I'll post them for you.

mjpetrov@acsalaska.net

Lowell Glenthorne & HomelessjOe
I can only speak for myself, but could you please take your sideshow elsewhere. I would like to learn more about Scott Premiers’. Please remove your post from this thread or I will remove mine.

OWD & Michael, My Premier circa 1877. A few more miles on it than yours OWD but still going strong.A hair under 8 lbs,2 3/4" nitro,30" x light & imp mod.Going on a trip to the marsh Sat. morn before our duck season ends the following Friday.

Michael, I would remove my reminder to j0e, but it seems that there is no way to edit and delete after this time has gone by.
Sorry!
Btw, I did take this topic/thread to the top from p4.
Be a good sport and overlook my replies, and please go on with your study.

Guys- thanks for the pics & infos on the guns.

I hope some more people reply with their Premiers.

BTW: all W & C Scott's are welcome.



OWD

For italiansxs

Thank you Michael for posting these pictures. One obvious thing that was changed over the years on this Scott is the beavetail forend. I plan to have this rectified in the future. Th gun was made in the 1890s locks up and operates like it was made yesterday and has fluid steel barrels but there's no indication it was ever proved for smokless powder.
Jim

Michael,

What can you tell us about the cross-bolt on that gun? I have a Scott with the same bolt which is different that the ones I have seen on other guns.

Thanks,

JDG

Jay, It's jim's gun I just posted the pictures for him.

In Vegas late week I looked at a Monte Carlo “B” that had a square crossbolt but seem to remember it was somewhat different. This was a cosmetically challenged gun (needed the barrels reblued-browned and a stock finish but a nice tight gun with good barrels for $1600 asking, don’t remember the seller but was still there last I looked.

Jim, Very nice gun and I agree a beaver-tail only looks right on a beaver.

Jay:
I can answer your question at least in regards to my Scott. To open the gun you push the top lever to the left rather than to the right. It is the only double I've ever owned that operated this way. IMO: This is a more logical arrangement for a right handed shooter as you can simply push the lever to the left. with your thumb rather that having to reach across to push it to the right
Jim

Italian -

It sounds like your Scott was made as a true left-handed gun. I've seen a few left-hand British guns, but they're few and far between.

What does it say on the rib of your gun?

What type of forend latch does it have?

I think the square crossbolt as called something like Scott's Improved crossbolt, or something like that. I'll have to look it up.

It looks like a way to sneak around Greener's patent.

I've been told that square bold are much harder to fit right.

OWD

OWD,

That is exactly what mine says on the base of the rib "Scott's Improved Bolt". It is exactly the same as Jim's bolt however it is reversed for a right-handed shooter. I'll post pictures shortly.

Thanks,

JDG

Does the bolt on a normal (right-hand) gun protrude to the left, I seem to remember the “B” with the bolt sticking out on the left side when open?

Nice gun Jim.

OWD If it was made as a "true left handed gun" wouldn't the triggers be set up for a left handed shooter with the chokes reversed ? (I know the triggers could've be reversed)

The forearm latch looks different than most Premiers I've saw. Is the gun marked "Premier Gun' on the rib ?

I think it would be easier all the way around if I listed all markings on this Scott so here goes:

Top of barrels: (Right) W C Scott & Sons 78S Shaftsbury(?) Avenue London SW England.
Rib just ahead of dolls head: Scotts Improved Bolt
Top of barrels: (Left) Made of Sir Joseph Medfords Fluid Compressed Steel

Underside of barrels(Both): Whithworth Trademark* Manchester
Barrel flats near lugs: 13/1 "crossed swords" 12 over a C in a diamond

Water table: Patd. 5259-23 MF 1249 "crossed swords"
W C Scott & Sons Makers

The serial # 594XX appears on all parts.
N.B. It is possible I misread some of this as the letters and numbers are incredibly small even with a magnifing glass. I can take more picture if it would be helpful.
*The word "Trademark" is superimposed over some type of stamped crown.
As a side note: I've shot this Scott numerous time with low pressure loads and it's an incredibly nice handling gun!

Additional Notes:
All I can tell you about the forarm latch is the serial # matches the rest of the gun.
I cannot find any other rib markings other than the one I listed above.

Jim

It is not a Premier so can anyone help out with an identification? BTW, it is a 2-barrel set, both damascus. First set 30" second set 40".

Thoughts?

Jay thats not Parker. Allow me to take it off your hands so you can make more room in the safe for Parkers! Beautiful, and with a set of 40 inch tubes to boot!

40 inch tubes?!? Wow. Neat gun.

In regard to the model, from the engraving coverage (according to Crawford's book) it looks to be an "A" or "B" quality gun (just below Premier). Many of the Scott model designations are marked on the gun the top of the barrels (e.g., "Pigeon Club Gun"). Does your gun have a gold shield on the top of the buttstock just below the toplever? Or is the escutcheon lower on the buttstock?

Thanks for posting,
Ken

- I'll try and post some photos of my Scott later today.

Ken:
Thanks for the info. regarding the grade of my Scott. There is a gold sheild on the underside of the buttstock. It has never been engraved.
Jim

Jay what's the year of manufacture ?

I'd think that was an unusual Scott hammer gun with the square cross bolt.

Thanks for posting the pics folks, they are excellent guns indeed!

Don't know when my Scott was manufactured, perhaps someone can tell me from the Serial # which is 51314. Top of the rib says:

"W & C Scott & Son 10 Gt Castle Street Regent Circus London"

There is no shield on the top of the wrist but there is a brass oval on the lower buttstock. All serial numbers and proof marks match - looks like the gun came from the factory with both sets of barrels. It has not been Nitro proofed.

Storms, you know me well. Not a Parker but the girls seem to have welcomed her without objection. Have to tell you that this gun locks up like a vault and feels a heck of a lot more substantial than any of my Parkers. Hammer springs are still stiff - when you cock them you know by hearing and feeling the click.

I passed on a Premier, perhaps the one OWD aquired, and bought this one. It seems to have about 90% of the engraving you see on a Premier (note the hammers) but the damascus pattern on both sets of barrels is just spectacular.

The gun rests in an old Army & Navy case. Anything wrong with replacing the A & N lable with a vintage WC Scott Lable?

The gun was featured in the Nov-Dec issue of Doublegun Classics, an e-Magazine published here in Michigan and with which I am NOT affiliated. From the website you can download a sample of the magazine and see some better pictures of this gun. (This is not a commercial endorsement).

http://www.doublegunclassics.com/

This is my first hammer gun, and second English gun, and I am very excited to own it. I hope to take it out and break some clay birds with it in the next couple of weeks and I can't wait to walk up on the trap line with those 40" barrels.

Not trying to hi-jack this thread. I am very interested to learn anything I can about WC Scott guns, and this one in particular. I have read that in the 1880s and 90s it was "fashionable" for gentleman to hunt from horseback with guns sporting 40" barrels and I have heard of Greener's with 40" barrels but I have never heard of another Scott so equipped. Again, any thoughts and/or information would be appreciated.

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/

Jay:
Beautiful gun and I don't see anything wrong with replacing the case label. The above site has these labels in stock.
BTW: I only live about 10 minutes from the William Larkin Moore establishment and so I get to see a lot of high end doubles. Frankly I've yet to see or handle one where the quality seems superior to my own Scott and that includes Purdeys.
Jim

Jim the serial number chart shows 1898 as the year of manufacture a year after the merger with Webley.
Jay nice magazine I couldn't find the pictures of your gun. The serial number chart shows 1893 as the year of manufacture.

Terry Lubzinski check your PM.

Homeless,

It is on the cover of the Nov/Dec 2006 issue. Check out the Peek view. There is one other picture that shows the gun with the 40" barrels on the frame and the 30" laying next to it.

Those are some long barrels.

This is the only picture I currently have on a server. It is the bottom of my 12ga 'Crystal Indicator' back action Premier.



I also have a 10g Premier hammergun with two barrel sets, the second having been made by HA Lindner. I will try to get some more pictures up in the next few days if time allows.

I had a couple of pictures on my computer and uploaded them.

This first is a top view of the hammerless Premier.



These following pictures are of an A or B Grade that I recently sold.

Apologies for the low picture quality on the hammergun.

Hey, thanks for the pics. Keep them coming.

I'm away from my reference material right now, but once I'm back I'll try and post some info about the guns. I think you guys have covered things pretty well, though.

Homelss - I think true left-handed guns were as left handed as the guyer's wallet could afford.

And yes, Jay, my Premier is the one you saw. My 'smith has already bent the stock and it looks great. I'm glad I was wrong about the bend affecting the stock's looks.

Take care.

OWD

BTW: Storm - I have the new Lefever. I'm going to shoot it tomorrow. You're going to be real jealous when you see it at the UJ shoot this summer.

OWD - Were it not for the second set of barrels on the one I bought I would have bought that Premier. I like the straight grip and the shield. There is also a lot of original case color. From what I learned, you are the 4th owner of the gun. It was orderd in approx 1879 and shipped to a gentleman in Arizona. When he passed his son retreived it from a trunk in his father's barn. He kept the gun and never fired it. He sold it to a fellow in Ohio who never fired it and that fellow sold it to the establishment that sold it to you. It is an honest gun that proably has not been shot in 70 years. The only thing wrong with that gun are the small dings and scratches in the barrels. I saw no signs of neglec, misuse or abuse. You are lucky to have it and I am glad it found a good home.

JDG

If a guy could afford a reversed bolt don't you think he could afford reversed triggers and chokes ?

I'm hoping someone can enlight'n us on Jims gun.
Is it a Perkes bar action a Rogers or a Southgate ?

The serial number on Jims gun shows a date of 1898. The Scott book said the Perkes action was superceded by the Rogers Action in 1897 but also says the Rogers was used in conjuction with The Southgate Ejector pattern pattened in 1893.

The book says the Perkes is the identified by the presence of two screws on the watertable that retain the cocking rods.

HomelessjOe:
Thanks for the information regarding the date of manufactur. I am willing to take more pictures of my Scott if that will help.
IMO This has been an very intersting thread and brought greater appreciation of 109 year old craftsmanship to me.
Jim

I don't know, really - maybe he could afford it, maybe Scott didn't offer it, etc. I can think of a lot of different reasons.

Homeless, what's your theory on it? I would be interested to hear it.

OWD

I don't have a theory on Jims gun being built as a true left handed action.

One ironic point here is I am a lefty and had never given any thought to the fact the the top level worked just the opposite of the rest of my doubles. I just checked the choking and the right barrel is more open than the left one.
Jim

Here are some more pics of Scott Premiers.

This is another 12g hammergun.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465580.jpg

Check out the doll's head extension and the lump coming through the bottom of the action.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465581.jpg

The lump coming through th action is the front section of the front lump. This gun has features Scott's Adjustable Lump. The adjustable lump was used on some hammer guns from 1870 - 1887.

I think some of them come all the way through the bottom of the action. Others are like this, with the adjustable section hidden by the action.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465583.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465585.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465584.jpg

Here's a Purdey hammergun from about the same time as the Premier above was made (around 1880):

http://www.hunt101.com/img/408849.JPG


Here's a Premier 10g with a Purdey-patent thumbhole lever:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465587.jpg

Check out the step in the bbls. I have no idea what that's all about. I think the gun is 100% original.

According to the Scott book, Scott used Purdey-patent thumbhole levers from 1865-1880.


And here's a hammerless 12g Premier:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/465590.jpg

Nice wood!

What are the dimensions on everyone's guns? Most of 19th century Scotts that I have seen have had a lot of drop in them. This makes me think that they were made for the American market.

Does anyone out there have an old Premier with more British stock dimentions - like 2-2 1/2" drop at the heel?


Enjoy. And if you have any pics of W&C Scotts, please add them.


OWD

This has been a great thread - the reason I frequent this board. Thanks for all those who have contributed.

I am still not sure of the history of the guns - I'll probably end up buying the book. I can't imagine the quality, fit and finish of a true top manufacturer of shotguns like Purdy, Boss and H&H if WC Scotts are second or third tier guns. No way I could even dream of having a comparable gun built today.

Why were these guns built for the US market and how did they differ from those made for the Euro/English market?

Thanks again,

JDG

Scott had a huge following in the US.

According to the book, several famous American shooters used them - Captain A.H, Bogardus, a Mr. C Macalester - and Scott guns did very well at a number of top American shoots, including and International Gun Trial held in New York in 1873.

I have a reprint of a W & C Scott catalog from 1872. Along with testimonials from shooters from England, the catalog is filled with compliments from shooters from Boston, Worcester, New Orleans, Lexington, KY, and one from a Mr. Van Gieson who lived in Whitewater, WI.

Wm. Read and Sons in Boston was one of Scott's US agents for a while.

I think the stock dimensions were the big difference. I don't know of any others - probably just patent marking, maybe importer's names, etc.

Here's a Scott that was retailed by a firm in Paris:

http://www.leroymertz.com/photo.php?id=1738_0_2_0_M28

The gun does not have Scott's name on the rib. Instead, it has the retailers name and Paris address.

OWD

Ok, I finally pulled the 10ga two barrel set out of the safe. It will be packaged up for delivery to the 'smith in the next few days for renovation. You can note some of the problems in the pictures. What can't be seen is a loose rib on the Lindner barrel set, a cracked hammer and initials stamped in the wood. I bought this gun twice. Once in Kentucky while on vacation and once later when I realize selling it was a mistake. Some of you may have seen it on Pete Hiatts table in the interim. Gratefully he was willing to let me have it back for a reasonable sum. The hammergun I pictured above was sold to finance the renovation of this gun.

Obvious need of a new replacement hammer screw. The other side has the same brass screw.


Proof marks on both barrel sets. You can see the HAL/Crossed Pistols on the Lindner set.


Forend that fits both barrel sets. Here you can seel the 'typical' push button release used by Scott on most Premiers.


This poorly focused picture shows the two barrel sets. I believe the short 26" barrels to be original. Going from my eight year old memory they are not out of proof and they still have signifigant choke in both barrels. The Lindner set is 32" long and still in proof also. All proofs being blackpowder.

Damn! Wish I had that little gem. I'll be sure to find a better one tho... Wish I had won that BH. Let me know how she shoots.

A better look at the side.


And the Trigger Guard,

W&C Scott was never in the thick of things with the London shooting crowd, so they made their money exporting guns.
Our own Rocketman has W&C Scott in the third tier - for every nice gun made, there were hundreds of rough, keeper and for export guns. This might not have gone over well with the uppish.
Why would the lord, have a gun like his keeper hmmmmmmm?
Thus you have the London trade!

Mike,

Would you mind sharing the small number forward of the barrel flats on the Lindner set of barrels? I may be able to give you a rough date on when Lindner fitted the extra set of barrels on the gun. I'm curious to see how this number fits into the timeline of other Lindner guns.

Ken

Michael,

This has probably already been ask, but what is the purpose of the small windows on the sides of the locks?

Thanks,

JDG

Jay its to see if the hammers are cocked.

So aside from name, what would a buyer get for the money spent on a Purdy, Boss or H&H? I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of SxS is pretty much limited to American guns. But I look at the deep, fine engraving, the fit and finish of the wood, the spectacular damascus, and how the gun locks up and I don't think the Brothers Parker, let alone Fox or Smith made many guns that compare astetically. The Purdys, Boss and H&H guns I have seen and handled have all been beautiful guns and certainly well made, but nothing stands out as being so superior to what I see in my Scott.

Again, my experience is limited so I am looking for the thoughts of those with much more experience than I. Rocketman, what can you tell me?

JDG

It could have been a class thing, but it has carried over here to the states.
Not much class struggle here eh!
Today, the Purdey costs many-many thousands more than the high grade Scott.
There are reasons other than the name - which has been blamed too many times here.
The fellows who shot birds by the hundreds and thousands, knew something we didn't in our handful of today.

Ken,

The number on the Lindner set is 1299. I thought I had forwarded this information on your form a couple of years ago. Did I send you the information on the .410 Daly/Lindner here in SLC?

Thanks for the information on the barrel fitting!

Lowell could you explain this statement.

Lowell,

There was a time when Purdey did not build just best guns. A good measure of their output was built in Birmingham by companies such as Scott. The same goes for most of the London trade. The London trade has limited its output to best guns when it serves them to. I agree that a best gun from Purdey, Boss, or Holland and Holland is the pinnacle of the art, but a good many Birmingham makers build just as well without the price or the snob appeal.

Lowell this posts is not about your thoughts on Birmingham guns verses London guns....Do you have anything to offer on Premier grade Scotts ?

You really should start your own thread before you get reprimanded again....

Besides I don't know who I'm talking to Lowell. You could be the Prime Min'ster of London for all I know...lol

Okay,
I just bought a shooter 500 BPE W.& C. Scott which is rather plain. It was restored quite nicely, but has limited engraving on it. Would it be worth while to have it engraved a bit more?
I plan to shoot it and hunt with it.

Any comments?

Homeless j0e

I think Lowell's response was to my question which was related to WC Scott guns, including Premiers. I am trying to get some sense of what makes guns from top tier manufacturers so much better than Scotts, especially Premiers, which appear to me to be just as fine as any other gun. The questioin and response are very much related to Premier grades

JDG

I think David summed it up pretty well.

Buy the book on Scotts and look at the pictures of W & C Scott Gunworks. I'm sure it dwarfed all others of the period. Scott built guns for the world not just a few Princes.

My thoughts are if Scott hadn't merged or been bought by Webley they might command higher prices today.

Mike,

I had some of the info on this gun you provided (thank you) but had neglected to record the barrel number. The closest Lindner barrel number to your gun (#1299) is #1304, which corresponds with a Prussian Daly with a serial number just over #1000. Based on the features of that gun, I would estimate the date of production as circa-1903. This date would jive with the proof marks on your second set of barrels. Are these damascus or fluid steel barrels?

Your gun has a story to tell for sure.

Ken

- There are two .410 built by Lindner in the database, one being a Daly. I'm not sure if the SLC gun is one of them.

There is a lot more to “Best” guns than the name, the time period should be considered as well when comparing one gun to another. My Premier (pictured) No. 41424 was made in 1887 and sold for $295. When you compare this price to other guns of the same time period and see what they were valued at then you may see the Scott Premier in a different light. The “Tier” system can be used to your advantage to buy some “Best” guns at affordable prices.

Can someone supply the cost of a shotgun from other makers circa 1887?

Michael,

In 1887 $295 was a heck of a lot of money. Parker D-grades (hammerless) were sold for $100 and that was a lot back then. I have no idea what $295 would buy in terms of an American SxS but I am reasonably certain that you would be buying the top of the line from Parker, Fox, Smith or LeFever.

JDG

Here is a nice W&C Scott Crystal Indicator

Just for the sake of dollar comparison, when first introduced, the Winchester 94 sold for less than $10 and THAT was a lot money to a lot of people then.

Utah Shotgunner-

Is this gun purchased from one of the well known wood blank guys? Think I saw it on his website recently and was just wondering.

Alex

I am reluctant to disassemble my Scott to see what the interior workmanship is like but is there anyone here who has done so to theirs? The point I'm getting to is there a discernable difference internally from a workmanship perspective between a high grade Scott or a Purdey or a Boss for example? As I stated earlier; externally Scotts workmanship on my example is IMO second to none.
Jim

I thought the same thing. I even called the guy about buying it.
I think his other gun was on Westley Richards site last year ?

Alex,

I don't know if Pete still has it on his website. The short answer is 'yes'.

The long answer is that I found the gun at Antique and Modern Guns in Lexington, KY in the summer of 1998. One of my very first 'What is it worth?' questions on this BBS was posted from the hotel my wife to be and I were staying at. On the advise mostly of Bill Wise and Russ Ruppel I purchased the gun. Actually I had them hold it for me and bought my wifes engagement ring the same day at a Lexington jewelry store. I asked, she said yes and I went back the next day and had them ship the gun to my home. Always important to get the purchases and questions in the correct order.

I then traded it to Pete a few months later. Regretting it almost a year + later Pete kindly traded it back to me for the same gun we had traded originally (incidently a back action Scott Crystal Indicator) and a little more to cover some work (the pad) that he had done.

It will stay with me for the forseeable future.

Joe,

Yes, my other gun was sold on consignment by Westley Richards.

Wow do you folks keep track of my guns or what.....

One of our members here had an even higher grade Scott.

I can't remember the designation (brain fade sucks) ******* Premier. Hopefully he'll post pictures.

I'll see if I still have pictures of it or the 20ga Premier hammergun that another member owns.

EDIT: IMPERIAL PREMIER !

Pics to follow.

Ken,

From the pictures I have of the .410 I think the s/n is 2235. If that doesn't match your records I can contact the owner to confirm. I have many pictures of this gun if you are interested.

As to the barrels on the 10ga. They appear to be fluid steel, but I thought (and hope) that they are blued damascus. I have never checked them properly. During the renovation we'll find out for sure. Your date of 1903 is later than I expected.

A member here once replied to a post about this gun and recognized it from Antique and Modern's display and emailed me of seeing it being sold at an estate auction shortly before I bought it. He offered to look into it more, but I never heard from him.

Things have been set in stone for years - you can buck the system all you want, but - it still is, and - still will be!
If you feel that the Premier should go to the head of the class, so be it.
It makes not a wits' difference to me.
The tier system has been turned into freeform modern art - its what ever you want see, or want it to be.
Or!
What ever you have in your cabinet at the moment.

Here are the pictures of the Imperial Premier.

I do not own this gun (I wish...) but the owner was kind enough to share pictures. As I understand the Scott records show this was one of THREE identical guns. I think the member who kindly sent me these pics knows where one of the two remaining guns is located. I won't post more, but hopefully he will share more of the story.

Here are the pictures of the 20ga Premier Hammergun.
Again I believe there is a 'story' with this gun but I will leave it up to the owner to share any information. I offer thanks to all the folks who have shared pictures with me over the years.

I have been begging to buy this gun for more than half a decade now. No luck.....

BTW - I hope Bill Wise finds his way back here in the near future. He would be thrilled by this thread and has been enormously helpful with my search for Scott information and guns over the years.

That Imperial Premier is drop dead gorgeous. Can you tell us what year it was built?
Jim

Nice guns...Lowell shouldn't look at these...they are beneath him. lOl

What's the serial number on the Imperial and is it marked Imperial Premier ?

Doesn't the lever appear high on the 20 ?

Mike,

That's the one - I have 2335 in the database.

FWIW, the last mention of damascus as an option in the SD&G catalogs is 1902, though it looks like it could still be ordered for a few more years. I also expected the date of the barrels to be a little earlier when I saw the gun. Still, I can easily imagine a scenario where the original owner (desiring a second set of barrels for his beloved Premier) stops off at 302 Broadway, NY, to have them fit a second set of barrels. SD&G would have most likely would have gone to "their" manufacturer to procure the barrels - Lindner.

Taking a look at the 1889 Merwin, Hulbert, & Co, catalog, I note that the Scott Premier is going for $300 ($315 in 10 gauge.) The finest "Quality A" Parker could be had for $240 and the "Quality AA" LC Smith for $270. Only the "Highest Quality" Westley Richards gun is in the same price range as the Premier. Winchester '73 rifles started at $17.

Ken

I have told just about all I know. The owner who sent me the pictures is a member here. Hopefully he will read this.

I am not sure but I believe the gun is marked "Imperial Premier" on the right barrel, but the picture I have of the breech end of the barrels is not detailed enough to make it out for sure.

IF the lever is high on the 20g I could overlook that minor 'fault'.

Ken,

Have you seen my Scott/Lindner in person? I don't think I had it with me when we met.

According to the dates on this site it was made in 1875 which is what led me to guess the second set of barrels came earlier.

Copy of November 18, 1886 Forest & Steam magazine with W&C Scott serial #40,527 one of the advertised guns.

Below is serial #40,765 two barrel set 20 & 16 built in 1887.

Mike it's not 'if' but 'why is it high'.
I wouldn't want to but I guess I could live with the high lever.
It's a beautiful gun but there appears to be issues with the stock as well, (behind the trigger guard).
Who did the restoration on it ?

R.D. I've got almost the same gun in a twelve wish mine was as nice as yours. I'm not crazy about the low hammers, harder to let down than my others.
When and who did the restoration on it ?

Nice guns. That Imperial Premier is fantastic. That engraving ranks up there with some of the best I've seen.

The other additions are nice, too. Mr. Gattis, that gun of yours is great. That's one of the best refinishes I've ever seen.

Check out these links to see some other guns being made in the 1880-90s:

Here's a Holland. This gun was made for them by Scott:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=63540482


Here's a Boss made on a Perkes action:

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.C...mp;mode=viewGun

The Boss is from the company's pre-Robertson era. Robertson turn Boss into THE BOSS. The Perkes-patent Boss guns are pretty blah.

Here are some hammerguns:

An H&H:

http://ospreyarms.com/category_details.php?i=4&id=180


A back-action Purdey:

http://ospreyarms.com/category_details.php?i=4&id=165


A Woodward:

http://ospreyarms.com/category_details.php?i=4&id=44


Another Purdey:

http://ospreyarms.com/category_details.php?i=4&id=69


A Lang:

http://www.atkingrantandlang.co.uk/gundetails.asp?id=147


A William Evans:

http://www.atkingrantandlang.co.uk/gundetails.asp?id=382


And a couple of Bosses:

http://ospreyarms.com/category_details.php?i=4&id=116

http://ospreyarms.com/category_details.php?i=4&id=120


Overall, I think the Scott Premiers stand up to these guns pretty well.

OWD

What a wonderful bunch of beautiful guns! Thank you all for sharing them with us.

Joe,

I am aware of some of the workers on the 20ga, but as it is not my gun I will not name them. That is the purvue of the guns owner.

Mr. Gattis 'stole' that gun from me! If not for the inefficient employees at the Cabelas store it would have come to me for inspection and I suspect it would have stayed with me. They did send a $50 gift certificate to make up for their poor customer service. Not quite the same as owning that beautiful gun though. The only thing I 'don't like' about it is that the damascus barrels are no longer with the gun.

Joe,

In regard to the 20ga I should mention that while it may or may not have some perceived problems it was a 'wreck' before the current owner restored it.

Now we need our friends from the UK to post prices of other doubles from the same time period.

Specifications of Imperial Premier, Serial # 102XXX
Manufactured c.1920
1 of 3 purchased by the original owner in China via Holland & Holland
12 Gauge 2-¾ inch chambers
Double trigger
semi-pistol grip English walnut stock, splinter forearm
Butt checkered inside of heavily engraved skeleton butt plate

Holland & Holland style locks, gold plated internals
Scott’s improved square cross top bolt with double under bolts
Side clips
Birmingham nitro proofed for 1¼-ounce loads

30 inch barrels with flat file cut rib
Barrel wall thickness @ 9” from breech is 0.059
Right and left tubes taper from breech to chokes 0.734 to 0.730
Choke Right: 0.730-0.717=0.013 choke (¼)
Choke Left: 0.730-0.691=0.039 choke (full)

Barrel address reads: “W. & C. Scott & Son Makers The Imperial Premier
Shaftesbury Avenue London”

Lock-up is tight
Barrels are on face
Locks are in good shape
Ejectors function perfectly

Stock drop at heal 2 ¼, comb 1-3/8
Stock length at heel 14-3/16, center 14, toe 14-5/8
No cast apparent

Gun came cased with all accessories, i.e., snap caps, chamber brush, nickel -plated oil bottle, pull-through brush, ebony cleaning rod, reloading tools, sling, spare firing pins in an ivory bottle, etc. Snap caps, oil bottle, and other accoutrements are labeled “Holland & Holland”.

Retriever,

I wondered if you were still visiting this site. I thought the pictures might draw you out of the background. Check your email!

Best regards,

Beautiful gun.

I noticed you said "1 of 3 purchased by the original owner in China".....We have the "Czars Parker" could this be the "Emperors W & C Scott" ?

Mike wouldn't you like to whip the guy that put that rubber pad on your hammergun.

Uh, no.

When I found the gun it had a 2" wood extension and a Pachmayer White Line pad on it. The new pad is much more appropriate for the gun.

I should've said the guy that took off the engraved steel skeleton butt plate.

Here's nice Premier. I've looked at it in person. it's a nice gun without allot of issues, I don't think it's as nice as the pictures make it. It also has allot of drop and it wasn't choked tight enough to suit me or I would've bought it.

http://www.drake.net/products/W.--C.-Sco...n-1878?id=28590

HomelessjOe

I am still searching for information regarding when and who did the restoration. My assumption is the restortation was done in England after 1954 from the Birmingham proof marking on the barrels. The previous owner, who had placed the gun on consignment, told me he had purchased the gun 12 to 15 years ago at a Ruffed Grouse Society fund raiser in Minnesota. He said he used it only one time on a plantation quail hunt in Georgia during his ownership.

Unlike “rabbit ear” hammers the low profile hammers do not allow bridging both to cock at the same time due to the obstruction of the opening lever. Other than that, I rather like the low profile hammers.

It was interesting to discover I had the old 1886 Forest and Stream magazine in my collection that showed an advertisement for W&C Scott hammer guns with a serial number only 238 from this gun. Too bad the copy had to be reduced to post the picture of the magazine cover. It makes much of the small print impossible to read.

Utah Shotgunner

I am certainly glad you have the $50.00 gift certificate and I have the gun.

Thanks to all for a most enjoyable evening.

As one who is not a party to the "insider jokes" posted above; I hope this very interesting thread continues on a positive note.
I expect there's a lot more information on Scott guns we'd all like to know.

R.D. here's my 12 gauge very similar to yours, only noticeable difference in the two guns is mine has a gold star on the rib.
Serial number 412xx, circa 1887. 7 & 1/4 lbs, 26 inch barrels Right barrel .735 left .735 to .732. 14 & 1/4" pull. Drop at the comb 1 & 11/16" & 2 & 1/8" at the heel. I had the stock bent the drop was 3" at the heel.
Like I said I'm not crazy about the low hammers they are a little more difficult to let down in the field than normal hammers for me.

There was a good article in the Double gun Classics recently on taking down a Scott Premier, and another on a Scott hammergun with some excellent photos.

HomelessjOe
Is this the Scott that was at Dixie Gunworks? I haved two Scotts with the same frame but scroll engraveing insted of the oak leaves.
Regards, Gordon

Yes it was.

There were two of them one with a 30 inch barrel (it had 'lots' of Issues) and this one. The stock dimensions of the guns match the serial numbers are not consecutive. I believe the two guns to have been owned by the same person. It's sad the other gun is in the shape it's in....funny thing he wants more for it.

I admit to being an interested amateur and no more, but the three Premiers and the two other W&C Scotts I have owned have all had buttplates or pads. Even in my searching at the Vegas show I have never seen one with a skeleton buttplate.

Hopefully someday I will see one of these in person.

Retriever Believer-

If you're interested in selling your Imprerial Premier, please drop me a line at the email below.

Thanks

OWD

hfn_03570@yahoo.com

Mike I'm no expert either.

Both the Premier 10's I've handled had a skeleton butt. This gun at Lewis & Drake has one.
http://www.drake.net/products/W.--C.-Sco...n-1878?id=28590

I'd be affraid to say what the Imperial Premier shown would be worth.

What do you think OWD ?
10 grande....20 grand...50 grand...75 grand...100 grand or maybe more ?

I know it's more than I could afford for sure.

jOe,

I saved your picture and when the recoil pad is off the gun I'll have the 'smith check for evidence (screw holes) of such an installation. It would be outside my budget to have one made, but it will be interesting to find out if it originally had one.

OWD,

It is funny you would ask about purchasing the Imperial Premier. Many years ago Retriever Believer posted pictures of his back action Premier. I posted a similiar question about that gun. I think it was 2 or 3 years before he relented and it now resides in my safe. At the time he needed to fund the purchase of the Imperial. I am not sure what he would step up to now.

Best regards,

OWD, et al,
I have sold the Imperial Premier. I will not say how much I got for it.

Mike,
The Imperial Premier had an engraved skeleton butt plate like the one above.

Darn! But thanks for the response.

The other day I came across an online "For Sale" listing for your Imperial Premier (or at least another just like it for sale in Northern California).

The listing was old, but I figured it was worth asking, anyway.

BTW: my Premier has a horn buttplate.

Does anyone know where the other 2 Imperial Premiers are from the 3-gun order?

Thanks again.

OWD

A post I made earlier seems to have vanished.

Retriever Believer,

I remembered you had sold the Imperial but I did not think that it would be appropriate for me to mention.

As to the buttplate, I will have the 'smith check my 10ga for screw holes as I am very interested in finding out if it may have had one originally.

On the backaction Premier I bought from you. Last fall I had a chance for Toby L. to give it once over and to check on the repairs he had made for you. In his opinion that gun was restocked at some point in the past so I won't be able to check it for possible screw holed for a skeleton buttplate. Those two Premiers are my 'last to be sold, except for Grandpas guns'.

Thats one of the prettiest Skeleton Butts I have ever seen. Just amazing work.

And it is only 130 years old.

For whatever it's worth; that is one elegant skelton butt plate pictured above. I think it's been established in this exellent thread that Scott was capable of doing quality work right up there with the top tier makers. I personally feel very priviledged to own one of their high quality examples.
Jim

This has been a great thread. I became the owner of a Scott just recently and I am appreciateive of all who have contributed. I certainly appreciate the gun more today that I did when I bought it.

Thanks to all who contributed.

JDG

The only problem is that even a few years ago W&C Scotts were the real bargain among high grade English guns. Now their value is recognized due to sharing of information like we have done here. So now I can't afford guns I could a few years ago.

So the only thing we can do is keep posting more threads like this and keep driving the prices up1

OWD,
Yes, the ad you saw was old and pertained to the gun I bought. I have a lead on one of the other two, but I'm not telling. The situation is "touchy".

Aw - come on, tell me. I won't try to buy them.

Honest.

Hahaha.

BTW: I would love to know the story on how they went to China and then found their way back. Are we going to read about them in an upcoming issue of the DGJ?

Thanks, and good luck.

OWD

OWD,

The guns were purchased by a Chinese man living in China. He ordered them from H&H in London and they were shipped to him in China. He bought three, kept one and gave the other two to his brothers. Later, he and one of his brothers immigrated to the U.S. and brought their guns with them. I bought my gun from the grandson of the original owner.

I hope there will be a Double Gun article someday. Part of the history of the gun I had was that it was siezed by the Japanese during the war. Later, after the Japanese were defeated, the original owner was able to get it back.

RB

Not a Premier, but . . .

This a Scott "Pigeon Gun Club" gun made in 1891 with 30" Whitworth steel barrels. If only it were a London-made gun, then at least they would have upgraded the wood.

Wow - very nice. Is it marked "Pigeon Club Gun" on the rib or bbls?

On the other side of the action, is their a screw slot for the hinge pin?


And does it have the adjustable lump feature?


Thanks

OWD

Being another Scott addict and dedicated marsh rat, I thought I would add my Circa 1895 Scott 10 SLE to the thread.32"x 3 1/2"
nitro damascus.8 3/4 lbs. Handles 1 1/2oz. of bismuth #2's extremely well.The gun appears to be about Monte Carlo B quality. Like Ken I can't stand the crappy wood Scott used on their high grade guns

HomelessJoe asked: "OWD If it was made as a "true left handed gun" wouldn't the triggers be set up for a left handed shooter with the chokes reversed ? (I know the triggers could've be reversed)"

Joe, I shoot from the left shoulder and I believe that the front trigger being on the right side is one of those freaks of history. It is MUCH easier for a left hander to shoot standard double triggers. Think about it. A right hander has to pull the front trigger then disengage and get inside that trigger to the back one. A lefty simply has to let his finger slip to the rear.
Look at many (if not most) standard double trigger guns. The back trigger is bent to the right to make it easier for a right hander to get to it.
The real funny question is why double guns developed with the right/front trigger for the open choke. I have read that some of the early manufacturers and designers felt that the recoil of the first barrel was better to the outside.
Whatever the reason, it is one of those funny freaks of history that make double triggers set up for the masses easier for leftys.
I would love someone with more knowledge about this than me to respond. Regards, Jake

Well! Here we go again. Everyone please note the the crossbolt is protruding from the left side of the standing breech on the above gun while it protrudes from the right side on mine pictured back several pages (Page 2?). Also note that the above gun is from around 1895 while mine is 3 years newer from 1898. I too bemoan the crappy choice of wood Scott selected. Maybe their blanks were Purdey rejects!!
Again mine is choked more open(about modified) in the right barrel and the triggers are traditionally positioned.
Jim

ItalianSxS-

I still think your gun was made for a lefty. Of all the reasons I can think of to make the gun open the opposite way, this one is the most plausible.

The front trigger is still firing the more open-choked bbl, right? So that makes sense.

By traditional do you mean the triggers are swept to catch a right-handed shooter's trigger finger, or neutral (no cast either way)?


From what Jakearoo says, a lefty may have preferred the triggers the way they are.

On my Scott, the triggers are nuetral (no cast either way).

OWD

BTW: what's the record for responses and views for a post?

For $300 in 1889 you could buy a small farm. A 140 acre farm in the south was valued at $1,402.



Pete

Jake I'm left handed also and I made those same assumptions that you did. It does seem like they were tailor made for us lefties.....but they weren't.
Let your barrels get real hot or have a loose hold on your gun and it won't take you long to figure it out when you get the double whammy a few times.

OWD I've probably not handled as many doubles as you have I've never notived cast in the triggers maybe I missed it.

I still believe it is 'very doubtfull' that Scott built a left handed action at the turn of the century...I think it took us about 75 years to get a left handed Automatic.

If Scott did build a left handed action in 1900 I feel confident they were savy enough to reverse the triggers and the choking in the gun for a left handed shooter.
That's why in my original response about the gun I asked about the choking after I noticed the triggers were right handed.

O-W-D:
The triggers on my Scott are set up the same way as all my other doubles with two triggers. The forward trigger that fires the right barrel is to the right and the back trigger for the left barrel is to the left. Being a lefty myself I hadn't realised it before but I agree that it's easy for a lefty to operate both triggers is this configuration.
Jim

Don't get to feeling like Christopher Columbus.

There's a whole thread on here about New World desoveries.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21369&page=1#Post21369

It would be interesting to learn what other English makers such as Boss, Purdey and Woodward where getting for their guns in the late 1880’s.

If your gun was made to order for a left-handed shooter the stock might have been made with cast-on, does yours have any cast one way or the other?

Michael:
I just checked and it was made with a very slight amount of cast-on. As a lefty it fits me very well.
BTW: This gun has probably been taken out of the cabinet more times in the last two weeks than in the previous two years!
Jim

OWD asked:
"BTW: what's the record for responses and views for a post?"

Me thinks you have a ways to go, Grasshopper

Best,
Tolly

Didn't that post by Yogi about creating a double slug gun go for quite a while? The reddish stock thread also went for a while.

When was that thread started? That is one that Dave should dig up and put in the FAQ'a.

Here's my Premier grade W.& C. Scott 10 gauge circa 1881 it has a 14 & 1/4" pull, the drop points are 1 & 5/8" and 2 inches it weighs about 10 & 1/2 lbs and sports 32 inch barrels. It's choked a tight modified in each barrel.
It's has the Tri plex lever grip and pattened adjustable lump, that in 126 years has never been adjusted. Other than some oil on the stock the finish remains original.
It was reproofed for Nitro, 3& 1/2", 1 & 1/2 oz at 4 tons sometime after 1954. I had a lower grade 10 gauge Scott built about the same time with allot lighter barrels. The Premier 10 that Lewis and Drake has listed is a lighter framed gun than mine.
The barrel thickness on this gun makes me wonder if it was possibly built on an 8 gauge frame but the 10 & 1/2 lb weight might rule that out.

Just finished watching the playoffs so I'm back posting again. I guess we've got a Mid Western Superbowl!
HomelessjOe: That is one spectacular looking Scott and the condition appears to be incredible considering its age. I expect if it will still be in use at 200 years!
Jim

Wow - 1 5/8" x 2" ?

That's the highest stocked Premier hammergun I've ever seen.

Was it made that way or bent? If it was made that way, I wonder if it was made for an English shooter.

It's also the first Premier hammergun I've seen with a Triplex Lever Grip.

Does it have two screws on top of the action? The hammerless guns that I've seen with the Triplex Lever Grip (pg. 10 in the Scott book, upper photo) have all had a piece fitted into the action for that funky extension. I wonder if Scott also fitted this piece onto their hammerguns.

What about the forend release? Is it like the one on pg 15 or pg. 16 of the book?

You know, Scott make Premier-grade hammerguns into the 20th ceentury. Has anyone ever seen a later one - say around WW1?

OWD

I've saw a few variations of the Triplex Lever Grip.



Here's the patented adjustable lump.



Here's the release. I believe the stock dimensions are original.

An example of a later version of the Triplex Lever Grip on a Scott
SLE circa 1888.Note that it is a bar shaped lockplate but a back action lock.Scott made so many variations of hammer and hammerless guns particularly in the period from 1875-1900. Also more of that
crappy Scott stock wood