The other day, a friend and I were talking about modern SxSs for sporting clays. This got me thinking about what's currently available.

I don't have any interest in an RBL, a Merkel or putting choke tubes into a Win. M-21. This narrows the field quite a bit to modern Spanish or Italian guns.

Here are the requirements we came up with for a clays gun: It should be heavy and durable, 32" barrels, flush choke tubes, double triggers, nice wood and overall good looks, splinter fore arm, PoW grip, modern long dimensions, flat pigeon rib, etc.

We think that they can probably be made "reasonably" by some of the Continental makers: Poli, Fausti, AyA, etc.

Any opinions of these or other manufacturers and models would be welcome.

Fausti makes a very good SxS, their higher grade guns are excellant!!!

Take another look at the RBL. Great value for what it'll be used for. And you could get the adjustable comb. It'll beat anything comparable in price you're going to get from Europe.

I hear that they just changed management at Fausti USA. Don't know how this may effect service/warranty work in the States. May be no problem. I do like the looks of their guns.

Mark if you have ruled out the RBL entirely, Fausti has changed things around and are backing up their guns. They made a big mistake relying on others to do the warranty work for them, not any more.

Mark,

AYA has a dedicated pigeon shotgun that matches your description, the Model 56. Somehow expensive in my view (EU 11650), but not far from its equivalent O&U of similar pedigree and purpose, like the Perazzi and Kemen. I own an AYA model 53 which is a compromise between a field and a ring shotgun (EU 6077); currently it is my pigeon gun. It can be customised with a flat file, pistol grip and 32" barrels.

Regards

Steve Barnett currently has a 34" Poli and there is a 32" AYA 56 at Fieldsport. My vote would be the Poli, I have gotten the chance to handle a few and they all feel great between the hands.

Actually , anything of quality and durable that fits you is an excellent gun. The old Browning BSS is excellent for a hammerless and of course the choices go up from there. I won the Texas State Side x Side event in 2010 with my 1910 Vintage
Cashmore Hammergun. It fits well and is a 32 in bbl ex Pigeon
gun.
[img:left][/img]

Yes I also wanted to say the BSS. There was a 30" on Gunbroker not to long ago. Also how about a WinchesterHeavy Duck? They had 30" barrels and can take a pounding.

I looked at the AyA 56. It would fit the bill. A new one is pricey, the used one at Fieldsport may have been made at at time when AyA was having metal hardening problems. I already have vintage pigeon guns, just wanted something modern. If I mentioned modifying a Mod 21 on this board, I'd get crucified, besides I'm not enthusiastic about their handling characteristics.

Mark,you are on the right track, IMO. However, you should really determine the handling characteristics you want (enjoy shooting or shoot well - not necessarily the same thing). Here is a starting point: Weight 7#12 oz, balance 4 3/4" to (front)trigger, unmounted swing effort 1.9, and mounted swing effort 8.5. These numbers may not suit you, but are a good place to start.

I think highly of the AyA #56 and would not be afraid of an old one.

AyA M-56 SLE #568629 Weight = 7# 10 1/2 oz, Balance to trigger = 5 3/4", Unmounted swing = 2.00, Mounted swing = 8.86, 12 ga, bbls = 30", LOP = 14 5/8", and 1/2 weight radius = 11.00 (not compact).

AyA Model 53 SLE Weight = 7# 10 oz, Balance to trigger = 6", Unmounted swing = 1.79, Mounted swing = 8.39, 12 ga, bbls = 30", LOP = 14", 1/2 WR = 10.44 (compact).

See the differences? The #53 will be a bit quicker for the same weight. Add the extra 5/8" of stock for equal LOP and I'll bet these two guns would be hard to tell apart for handling. Swing is hard to get (unless you want to work with me), but weight and balance should be readily available and will tell you if a gun is inthe "ball game."

How are you measuring swing effort and weight radius? I have seen balance point measured from the hinge pin but I think this is the first time I have seen it measured from the trigger

A few suggestions:
Stay with a single selective trigger for a clays gun; a Model 21 with 32" barrels has about perfect dynamics for a clays gun; don't worry about modifying a gun you're going to use, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

I have a 32" RBL 12 with beavertail, single trigger, and pistol grip. It's a clays-killing machine.
JR

The AYA No.56 is a fine choice. I had one that I absolutely loved.... just couldn't hit much with it.



AYA is now offering a hammer gun as well. However, I am not sure of the price (close to $20K I believe). Here are photos of one ordered by a member of the "Spanish Gun" forum at Shotgunworld.












If you willing to settle for something a little less fancy and a little less costly, I am selling a nice modern Beretta MI-VAL pictured below. It would make a great clays gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=219169104



Adam

Mark, I'd second Stallones' and PALUNC's nomination of the BSS. 30" barrels are the longest, but find one of those and put in choke tubes, you're good to go.

Don't know how much luck you'd have finding a long-nosed Bernardelli hammergun, but if you prefer modern guns with hammers, they're a good choice.

Or how about a Classic Lion from Fabarms? Don't know how easy it would be to find one, but they imported some with 30" barrels and choke tubes.

Agree with Larry. For the money, a 30" BSS Browning is the best option for an entry level clays sxs. Most have so-so wood and the forend and grip are a little clubby, but they are fine, well made guns with good dynamics, and are good candidates for Briley Thinwalls. Hard to find the 30 inchers, though.

I've had several BSS's, and the last was a 28" gun used for ducks. One thing these guns benefit from is moving the nose of the comb back about 3/4". Opens up the grip and makes it much more comfortable.

Actually, a 30" BSS is a also a good candidate for a nice re-stock. You could put $2500 into one and end up with a $4500 gun that would stand up to a Model 21 in every category. Thought about it many times myself.
JR

Mark
Check your PM

Verney-Carron will build you just what you want to your dimensions, weight and balance point in about 8 months starting at about 9k. Built on the same bullet proof style action they use on their 600 Nitro double rifles.

Rocketman:
"Mark,you are on the right track, IMO. However, you should really determine the handling characteristics you want (enjoy shooting or shoot well - not necessarily the same thing). Here is a starting point: Weight 7#12 oz, balance 4 3/4" to (front)trigger, and mounted swing effort 8.5. These numbers may not suit you, but are a good place to start."
I agree with your numbers I just had my Francotte Eagle measured at the Rocky Mountain Vintagers and your numbers are very close to what my 30" Francotte measured.
I am looking further at Fausti, Poli and AyA. The search is fun.

There are two 30" Brownings on Gunbroker right now.

Mark,
I have a Poli pigeon Gun with 32" barrels, Briley chokes, Palm Swell and single trigger. I don't know what you could do to improve that combination. I also have a Model 21 with 30" barrels that handles very similarly and would do the job as well.
Don't beleive that you can get an RBL Sporting Clays 12 ga. anymore. Production run is over, I believe.

I pondered this issue of a sxs clays gun last year about this time and posted the question to this board at least once. I had narrowed my choices down to basically three guns - an RBL 30”, a BSS 30” but with new stock/forend or a Poli. I shot all three at various times and ultimately decided on the Poli and have not been unhappy with this decision. I shoot sporting clays fairly regularly in both competition as well as casually. I currently have a 32” Blaser F3 as my main competition gun but have also shot a Beretta SO4 in competition. With my Poli I can shoot similar scores over the same course and it is great fun to shoot. My gun was imported by Coles and was designed (seemingly) to shoot clays as it has a palm swell, double triggers set at about 3 lbs, Briley thin wall chokes with overbored barrels. The gun has a semi beavertail forend so it is quite trim and the handling dynamics are superb. In my opinion, the RBLs that I have shot feel much less dynamic than this gun but it depends on what you want. This gun is more like a pigeon gun than a heavy “grooved swing” skeet or trap gun (or some sporting clays guns). Overall, I am extremely pleased with the purchase.
As an alternative, I had looked seriously at building a clays gun on a BSS platform using a 30” barreled action. However, with the initial purchase of the gun (1500), stock work (1500 - 2000), barrel work and chokes (600), etc I quickly was over the purchase price of my lightly used Poli Sporting Extra (side plated model). If you can not find a good deal on a Poli, which I think is an outstanding gun for clays or pigeons, then a “home grown” BSS clays gun is probably the best alternative for a nice gun around $3K. SKB also made a nice sxs specifically designed for clays but I like my Poli or the BSS route a bit better.
Have a great time with this as sxs are much more fun to shoot competitively than an O/U. In most events sxs are rare and if you shoot it even reasonably well, those that you shoot with will think you have extraordinary skills.
My thoughts
Z

The best sxs sporting clays shot I have ever personally watched used a BSS. He took a 30' model, had choke tubes installed, had it case hardened and refinished then had a drop dead restock job by Dave Wills in Montgomery. It is a great looking gun and he shoots it well. He may have close to 4 grand in it but I would pay twice that for it if I could shoot it as well as he does. I wish I had a photo to post.

Tyler,

Dave actually is considering building another custom BSS (or any Miroku SXS). He has me on the look out for any good deals on a 20ga. So keep that in mind if you come across a good deal.

Adam

Anna Nicole. Born in 1926. 32" barrels choked IM/IM, 8 lbs even. A little over 38,000 rounds fired since her makeover 3 years ago. Two-time Bo Whoop Championship winner.

A double trigger, extractor, low mileage Fox, similar to Mike Campbell's gun, is my recent maximum effort project for sporting and flyers. I am headed to the stockmaker with $2200 invested. This one is not going to be cheap, but it will be reliable. I will keep the total within reason by being conservative with the engraving.

Bill,

Is this the cross-over stock you've mentioned before? If so, who's doing the work? That would be a fascinating project to follow.

Similar to the BSS line of thinking...the local shop has had a Charles Daly (Beretta mfg.) on the rack for quite a while.
This gun has BTFE, ST, Semi-pistol grip, tight chokes and 30" tubes (2" short of your requirement).
I'd guess it's in the 7 1/2# range (maybe a bit light?). If I were a duck or goose hunter, I'd have snapped it up by now.
This gun is in nice shape and could be had for 800. It would also make a good turkey gun or a "posting" gun for phez.
I think there are lots of good directions you could go with this. A fun project--good luck.
-jim

Hi Mark:

You might consider this German gun. Although made in 1924 it has pretty modern features including a type of beavertail forend:

http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EuropeanPage44.htm

Maker: GERMAN "NO NAME"
Model/Action: 1924 DELUXE SCALLOPED BOXLOCK, S/S, SIDECLIPS, HIDDEN CROSS BOLT, BOLSTERED FRAME, COCKING INDICATORS
Engraving: BEAUTIFUL FULL COVERAGE SCROLL, DEEP CUT FENCES
Bore/Caliber: 12GA
Barrel Length: 34" VERY RARE BBL LENGTH
Chamber/Proof: 2 3/4
Chokes: F/F
Rib: STD GAME
Ejectors: YES
Triggers: DBL

Stock: NICELY FIGURED MED-DARK WALNUT, ST/SPLINTER WITH THIN EARS
Dimensions: LOP 14 1/2, 1 1/2, 2 9/16
Weight: 8LBS 7OZ
Scope/Sights: NA
Case: NA
Overall Condition: VERY MINT ORIGINAL CONDITION, 99% CC & BLUE, EXCELLENT BORES!
Reference #: 7-3571
Price: $4,695


Best,

Mike

Oh, one more. Deep River Sporting has a 30" Charles Daly Miroku for sale. It is priced right. Double triggers I beleive. Only issue is it is a little short on the LOP.

While we are on the subject, I am pondering a side by side clays gun. Looking for a 30" Model 21. Also looking to re-stock it in a nice piece of English walnut to match my P gun. Any ideas on east coast for a stocker who is resonably fast and not overpriced?

Mike,

I am not sure how backed up he is, but Dave Wills in Montgomery AL does fantastic work! His prices aren't outrageous either. Here are some examples:


He restocked this incredible Purdey Pigeon Gun. It can be yours for $29,000 (from Gamefair in Nashville TN)









He also restocked this Boss O/U.



And here is a Superposed that he customized.... this one's also for sale... but he has priced it yet.














Adam

Thanks, do you have his contact info?

Sure do Mike.

Dave Wills
Custom Gun and Stock Maker
Montgomery AL
334.272.0075


Tell him that Adam of Dothan AL sent you.

Good luck!

Adam

Worthy of your consideration:

A custom gun from Mark De Haan:

SxS gun with a case-color receiver, 32" barrels, screw chokes, palm swell, adjustable comb, grade III wood stocked to your dimensions, shipped for around $2100. Of course, you can add more goodies (higher grade wood, engraving, tear drops, beaver tail forend, etc.) for an extra cost.

www.dhshotguns.com click on SGr Deluxe on the left.

Adam, in your post with photos, I think you forgot to include the one of the Boss OU. I go straight from Purdey to Superposed.

RE: The above pic of the Superposed butt with heel & toe plates---what's up with that screw between the plates? I've never seen that before.

That is a stock bolt gun and I assume the screw holds the checkered wood plug in place. When you need to remove the stock you would remove the screw and then the plug. Then the nut on the stock bolt and then the stock.

Best,

Mike

That makes logical sense Mike, thank you.

You are welcome!

Mike Campbell, the Fox custom project will probably be a conventional stock so "others can enjoy it". I may build another crossover gun some day, but, for now, I have enough of them to compete in vintage shoots. I just started breaking in a rare and beautiful cased pair of William Evans factory crossover full sidelock game guns. Except for being a little on the high side, they are working out well. I may shoot them a little at the Northeast Shoot.

Looked today; no 30".
JR

[quote=John Roberts]Agree with Larry. For the money, a 30" BSS Browning is the best option for an entry level clays sxs. Most have so-so wood and the forend and grip are a little clubby, but they are fine, well made guns with good dynamics, and are good candidates for Briley Thinwalls. Hard to find the 30 inchers, though.

I've had several BSS's, and the last was a 28" gun used for ducks. One thing these guns benefit from is moving the nose of the comb back about 3/4". Opens up the grip and makes it much more comfortable. [quote/]

I completely agree about the BSS. I have a 30" with three inch chambers that is my sporting clays S x S gun and does double duty as a duck gun. I won the AA class and the Veterans concurrent S x S events with it at the U. S. Open last year at Tunica. It had original chokes when I used it there, mod. right and full left. It is not a selective trigger gun so I just had Charlie Boswell open the left barrel to mod., to match the right. It will only be better, now. I suggest you get one and shoot it a bunch before you send it anywhere to have screw-ins installed. But then, I am a bit of a maverick, I guess, about chokes. I compete in the main events with a Perazzi with two fixed .020" chokes. Don't worry about chokes for awhile, just shoot'em and watch'em turn to dust. It'll do wonders for your concentration on the bird.

Stan
NSCA #538366

Well said.

38000 rounds with the Fox gun in 3 years. About 250 rounds a week, 52 weeks a year. Where are you shooting?

I'm retired from industry and registered shooting. All of my play money goes for 400 targets a week and black coffee and gas to get there.

I hang out at Rochester Brooks Gun Club about 45 Wednesdays per year from 9AM-9PM, where I typically shoot 100-200 sporting clays and the odd round of trap, 5-stand and skeet.

Monday & Thursday nites are open trap nites at 2 local clubs; I almost always make one, sometimes both.

Saturdays will find me shooting a couple of trap leagues, a best ball sporting league and a sporting clays tournament about once per month. I do all that with 20, 16 & 12ga Foxes and a dedicated trap gun. I like to shoot.

Mike, what is your dedicated trap gun?

Unfortunately, not an American classic SBT.

'Though I suppose some might call a 1970 Japanese Browning BT99 a classic.

Even I have enough scruples not to customize a Fox SBT.

There are a lot of reasons not to want a Winchester 21 for a dedicated SxS clays gun but I don't think their handling qualities can be disparaged until you have at least shot a flat or two of ammo through one or two of them. They are available in many weights, barrel lengths, chokes etc. I have an old beater 8lb 12oz with Brileys, 32" barrels, a Simmons aftermark vent rib, and a JS Air Cushion Stock and I shoot clays with it a lot, both pre-mounted and low gun. I also have a factory two barrel set with 30" and 26" barrels that weighs 7-6 and is also a delightful gun.

I understand someone not liking the style, appearance, beavertail forend, finish etc.. of a 21. I just think the handling qualities are much better than many seem to think.

Best,

Mike

Agree 100%.
JR

The main thing not to like about a 21 is the price. I think they can make great clays guns. I have an early 16ga, DT/extractor, custom engraved and restocked. Makes a pretty good target gun, even with 26" barrels. Weight right at 7#.

You are right about 21's being overpriced, Larry. It hasn't been all that long ago that a clean but not mint 21 Duck with it's 13 5/8" l.o.p. was a $2500 gun. Now they are $5500. No way are they worth that, but that's how they are now priced. Should be a $3000 gun at the most, but the market says differently. A nice field model with decent wood and good dimensions is a $6500 gun today, and it should be a $4000 gun at the most. Ridiculous.
JR

Almost sounds as though you've published a gun review or two, Larry.

John, "a field model $6500"? I think a Duck model today is more coveted than a common field grade. Short barrel field grade 21s are a hard sell.

You're right eightbore. I'm thinking of prices for a decent field grade 20 ga. 12's are more like $4500 in 28"/30". 26" guns are very soft, as you point out.
JR

One or two, Mike.

I can remember getting Don Criswell's catalog, with dozens of 21's. Back then, a nice DT/extractor 12ga was about a $2K gun. Of course that's probably longer ago than it seems now.

If any you fellas are interested, I've listed my Browning BSS w/ 30" barrels for sale.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=226659#Post226659

Adam

The BSS is an unreal gun for the price and strong as a tank. About 3 years ago I picked one up off of gunbroker new in the box, choked full and full. I never shot it for 2 years, then one day I mic'd the bored and they were .723 so I shot some pigeon loads with it and they were some nice tight even patterns. I started shooting it for flyers and realy like the way the BSS hanadles.
I picked up another one 30" NIB, sent it to Teague for chokes and backbored to .735 Should turn out to be a nice waterfowl shooter. Just what ever you do with a BSS get rid of the stupid plastic butt plate. What were they thinking.

Perhaps they were thinking that some of us prefer butt plates to pads. You can always cut an original to fit a pad, but it's real hard to go back. Only one of my BSS's has a pad, and it was on there when I bought it. I wish it still had the original plate.

Yep, it's the market that determines the selling price of a used gun. What it's worth is a completely different issue.

In case anyone is interested in my beginning post about a dedicated sporting clays SxS, I ultimately purchased an RBL Reserve, 12 gauge, 32" barrels with flush-mount CTs, capped pistol grip, double triggers, ejectors, non-automatic safety, splinter forend, raised rib, with exhibition wood at 8 lbs, 1 oz. I carefully looked into Fausti, Poli, Arrieta, AyA, among others and made my decision. The BSS just doesn't do it for me. At $4000 total with shipping ($1500 off retail), I believe that I'll be happy for a long time to come. My vintage guns will serve their purposes in other ways and not be subject to the pounding of sporting clays.

Good choice, Mark. I love my 32" RBL12.
JR

Never could understand all the stink about M21's. Granted it's a somewhat esthetically challenged gun, but IIRC not that many years ago Doug Parsons took second in the Worlds Championship at pigeons in Guadalajara with a M21. What with Francis Eisenlauer taking first I'm guessing that it may not have been the gun that held Doug back.

Dr.WtS

I agree that Winchester M-21 are great guns. I was just concerned that my tinkering with chokes would do more harm than good on the resale market. M-21s are hell for stout. I'll see how my RBL holds up, but I expect very well also.